Your immaturity and inability to understand your own implications only moves me to more fervent laughter. The fact that you can't comprehend a statistical comparison shows that you have difficulty with comprehension. Either that or you're in the same genetic pool as the "chosen" people with the fallacious belief that science is false, and everything was created six thousand years ago, even though they have mountains of evidence to the contrary put before them.

The discussion was apparently based on the false assumption that a forge gun out damages a large rail turret, not the tactics and fittings of the mercs using them. On a per shot basis, you're right. But on a damage output over time, you're completely wrong.

So you're implying that there's some fitting nutzi standing over every tanker's shoulder every time they go to fitting to make sure it's fit just so with no variation allowed. Or do you mean to imply that the tanks come pre-fit and no alterations are allowed? It looked to me that it was always the tankers choice how to fit their tanks good or bad.

, Higher accuracy, and able to OHK anyone in their sights makes it underpowered.

actually it makes perfect sense that a master av can solo any tank atm...think about it....if you run into a sntd suit in dust..your ina proto suit..they're gun game may even be a bit better...but its just more likely your gunna scrub em up....its called proto stomping beating the crap out of people with lesser gear. tanks have no gear above stnd...ive seen the so called adv havs..and me asa proto av ive quesynced witha friend and hit a adv hav with adv av.....the need a slight buff... once tankers are given they're proto's it will most likely take a combo of heavy av and light av to control the field....caldari proto hav would not be soloable by 1 proto swarm..2-3 man av teams....balance

So you want it to be Tank 514? I haven't seen any suggestions for an alternate balance, only calls for changes to make all AV useless.

But when we get proto tanks this whole debate will just spring up again.

How is it balanced when it takes 3 players (with AV) to kill one player (in a HAV)? How does this not lead to everyone rolling around in tanks?

Am I missing something here? The only times I see an av nade take out a tank is on the milltia variants. If your multimillion dollar tanks are getting destroyed by av nades, your doing it wrong. Also lol at av nades being an "exploit".

AV grenade spam is deadly to pretty much any vehicle that gets within throw range. Especially if the tossers are near a supply depot or nano hives. This is one of the times when I do agree that this type of AV is too effective.

But when we get proto tanks this whole debate will just spring up again.

How is it balanced when it takes 3 players (with AV) to kill one player (in a HAV)? How does this not lead to everyone rolling around in tanks?

your proto hav is gunna cost you somewhere between 2-8 million isk...my proto av rig costs me 500 k .....of course there will always be the people whining about tanks being op...and when proto tanks come out there will be thousands of scrubs crying because they cant solo one with adv gear...i on the other hand look forward to the day where i might actually need help to kill a tank

My basic fit with a proto turret is 1.7mil

If i used an enforcer its 2.9mil maybe 3mil due to extra slot

Advanced i can see will push it to 5mil probs and proto getting close to 10mil ISK fully fitted while that proto AV fit is 500k

Not too mention that will be millions of SP needed to use proto vehicles

I will look forward to the day when dumb ass randoms cant dent it with milita AV and it takes at least a couple of proto guys to hurt it

My basic fit with a proto turret is 1.7mil

If i used an enforcer its 2.9mil maybe 3mil due to extra slot

Advanced i can see will push it to 5mil probs and proto getting close to 10mil ISK fully fitted while that proto AV fit is 500k

Not too mention that will be millions of SP needed to use proto vehicles

I will look forward to the day when dumb ass randoms cant dent it with milita AV and it takes at least a couple of proto guys to hurt it

How many vehicle pilots are ther now who have 90% of ther SP into vehicles?

Its not many at all

I dont include ambush tankers either because they get stomped everytime in skirmish hence why they in ambush

Vehicles are an SP/ISK sink when compared with AV

AV is cheap and easy its why more players have adv/proto AV and they can skill it up along with ther suit and main weapon

Vehicles have been nerfed what 3-4 builds in a row while AV got buffs and now that the SP required has gone up by a large amount andyou dont see any new tankers to begin with and if anyone does see them in milita tanks or weak fits they are blown up by AV or a more experienced tanker

You see packs of AV players more than packs of tanks

Don't balance on ISK alone. That approach breaks badly once everyone gets rich.

You are still one guy in your tank. Requiring two guys to take you out is not balanced.

Make a tank require 3 players to operate it; make it require 3 players to kill it. Make tanks cheaper and AV gear more expensive: 1.5m for a top-end fitted HAV, and 500K for a top-end fitted AV suit.

Now it requires 3 players in proto AV gear to have a reasonable chance of killing your proto tank, but no-one QQs because it is balanced.

Tell me how you feel when a main weapon is able to lock on to your dropsuit. I'm still winning out some 1 v 1 when I have a militia forge gun. Dunno what you're doing wrong.

You don't understand that a round guy with a glowing blue ball is a more difficult target to hit than a damn tank. I don't think he's the one that's stupid.

Your use of grammar reminds me of pseudo-intellectual high school seniors trying to sound smart and informed. It's not working.

You didn't get the previous point. We're always trying to decide whether we want more damage output, or more defenses. You can get a heavy with an Ishukone forge, one damage mod, then two plates and two reppers. That's a better, sneakier alternative to a tank.

You're missing that point, too. We one hit kill things with less than 1000 HP, because our rail turrets cause damage at over 1000 HP per shot. I don't see what your problem is with that.

How pathetically easy it is to use swarms and AV grenades makes tanks useless. We're calling for balance between those. I don't care if they buff the forge guns at all, they're fine because they require aim. You don't need to aim AV grenades or swarm launchers.

Infantry gets two weapons that home in on vehicles, while vehicle users get remote modules that are difficult to use. Maybe we should get mass driver turrets instead, or something that launches fused locus grenades...

Finally something logical from you.

Forge Guns - Stats - Comparison with Proto Railguns
GÇó Breach FG - 2772 Damage, 277.2 Splash damage, 1.5m Blast radius, 6sec charge time
GÇó Compressed particle cannon - 1798.7 Damage, 292.5 Splash damage, 2.5m splash radius, 2.2sec fire interval, 0.3 charge time
GÇó Assault FG - 1663.2 Damage, 277.2 Splash damage, 3m Blast radius, 2.5sec charge time
GÇó Particle cannon - 1438.9 Damage, 234 Splash damage, 2.5 Blast radius, 1.8sec fire interval, 0.3sec charge time

Add in skills that FG get a 25% reduction to charge time and 15% damage increase where as turrets get 15% damage also but nothing else, but the base value the FG are consistently stronger than the railguns all through from basic to proto and also fire faster with max skills when using the assault FG

Forge guns don't have lock on. That's SWARMS and AV grenades. I pop bad tankers regularly and sometimes I get a good tanker that makes a tactical mistake or just get's caught flat footed. But most of the time, good tankers manage to escape by leaving my field of fire or running for the red line denying them an area until I get run off by snipers, infantry support, or a rail gunner that can actually aim.

Then I notify the squad I'm in that I need support and snipers get hunted, infantry gets countered, and our own tanker, or other AV adds additional support. It's called playing tactically.

So perhaps I'm not doing so bad considering the only weapon skills I have actually put SP into is Forge and SMG.

May be more difficult, but still OHK. I've lost many suits to rail tankers in a fire fight. Damage over time is a calculation based on statistical data of the equipment in question, not one's personal ability to hit the target.

As for my use of grammar, I am actually educated. If you don't like my utilization of the English vocabulary, that's not my problem.

Lastly, I never called him stupid. I simply stated that he seemed to have an issue with comprehension, or just a stubborn refusal, of basic statistical facts.

Lol with the quality of even an Ivy League education failing, that really just doesn't mean much. If you went to MIT, that's great. If Harvard, well, have fun paying back your loans. Not that you won't be able to, but we have enough lawyers in the world. More than enough, really.

Thank you for telling me something I figured out a long time ago, why I've forgotten it until now.

The only AV I can respect is a forge gun because those require significant investment for the suit as well, plus they actually require aim to hit. You don't see me saying to nerf forge guns, because I respect the hell out of them. My beef is with AV grenades and swarm launchers. Never used swarms the previous build because they were too damn easy.

Look above

You do not see packs of tanks roaming about, you see packs of AV runing around because it easy

Vehicle are a massive ISK and SP sink, if im not in a vehicle im generally a walking meatbag in which a gust of wind kills me

Having 3 ppl in a HAV means **** all because generally the 2 turrets are useless, the 3man AV group is still fighting the 1 person in that HAV because the 2 small turrets are useless even if they even sat in the damn thing, the HAV doesnt get stronger because its full up so 3v3 is really 3vs 1 anyways so it doesnt fly

Its all down to the driver, the driver has to put everything into a vehicle to make it good, he gives up everything and cannot be on foot without getting wasted, without the driver the HAV is nothing, its easier to go ground pounding and skill up AV as a side hobby

Compare that to an AV guy who can skill up and AV weapon along next to his main weapon while sticking to one suit

You say 3v1 isnt fair, im in a damn tank while they are walking meatbags when compared to it with weapons that are already stronger than my turret and can lock on fire and forget go around corners and pull 270s

If you want 3v3 then i want pilot suits to be worn by all my gunners and have mods which increases the tank/resistances/damage but until then its 3v1 all the way because the gunners do next to **** anyways

I'm not talking about packs of tanks. I'm talking about one tank with 3 people in it.

I understand that HAVs cost of lot of ISK and SP. I'd like to balance that more, so HAVs cost less, and AV costs more.

I understand that - right now - 2 of the players in a HAV are almost useless. I'd like to change that. I'd like small turrets on a HAV to be more effective. I want to separate the driver & main gun. I want the HAV to get significant defensive bonuses if the top turret is occupied.

I understand that it is all down to the driver at the moment. I'd like to change that, so the driver is just one part of a team that is operating the HAV.

I understand that one guy can be effective in AV at the moment. I'd like to change that so that it takes 3 people working together to take down a tank.

"I'm a tank" is not a valid game balance argument in my view.

I'm very happy with the idea of specialist suits for vehicle crew.



My core argument is very, very simple: if you ignore number of players when trying to balance HAVs vs AV, you will fail.

once proto tanks emerge the balance will be there