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EnglishSnake wrote:

Generally we have the rock/paper and scissor scenario

Rock - Vehicles - Made to generally tank small arms fire and be fine from scissors

Paper - AV - Hurts Rock but is weak to scissors

Scissors - Infantry - Cuts a path through everything except rock

Problem is everyone hates each other and doesnt want to use paper to destroy rock and think they should be able to do it with scissors while rock thinks it should take a group of paper to kill it while paper wants to do it solo.

CCP have really messed up the balancing by generally hitting everything or one side with a nerf bat while buffing the other side but also it doesnt help when one side has advanced/proto and the otherside has basic.

This has lead to massive imbalance between the 2 sides and whats even worse is that the balance between the 2 types of tanking (shield/armor) is just as unbalanced and vehicle users feel that they are forced to go into armor tanking whether they like it or not while pilots are completely screwed with each patch and build and are effectively flying a coffin.

Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV instead of a solo monkey which whacks his 1.5mil HAV in 3shots while he sunk 10mil into vehicle skills and the AV guy barely did a quarter of it. You can see why the HAV guy gets pissed off and i don't blame him but also the AV guy is like 'well i should be able to if he's stupid enough' which is valid for stupid pilots anyways and then add in the real world argument that a RPG can disable and destroy a mulit million dollar tank/helicopter.

Both sides get pissed off and think they are right and it becomes a **** throwing forum match and i have taken part in a fair few and nothing ever comes of it and it eventually gets lost in the forums and forgotten about.

The balance is one which will never truly happen but the only way to get it about right is if both sides can agree on a number of issues and for that to happen we need all the AV equipment which is going to be added and all the vehicles aswell but until that happens the next best step we can do is balance what we have and hopefully this thread can address a few issues and also solve a few too while hopefully adding some good ideas but expect bad ones aswell.

At this current time i have 14mil SP invested into vehicles, i have both sets of HAVs (excluding useless Enforcers), armor/shield DS, armor Logi DS and a Logi LAV but i have a tried out all vehicles and destroyed all vehicles with everything the game has to offer at one point or another through the varying builds and take part in all game modes including PC where basic vehicles go against proto AV.

I dont know it all but i know quite a bit and i know what pisses me off as vehicle pilot so if im slightly bias i can't help it but i try to be on the level with what i say and i try not to repeat myself but sometimes its needed because one thing can effect something else and so on until you come full circle.

Essentially dont turn this into a **** throwing thread, disagree yes but put why and in some detail and dont have posts like 'learn to fly' which are useless because in the end both sides dont get what they want and end up in a worse position from where they started from.

Its a long thread and there is no TLDR


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DeathwindRising ROGUE SPADES EoN. 28	Posted - 2013.06.18 18:50:00 - [1] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Generally we have the rock/paper and scissor scenario Rock - Vehicles - Made to generally tank small arms fire and be fine from scissors Paper - AV - Hurts Rock but is weak to scissors Scissors - Infantry - Cuts a path through everything except rock Problem is everyone hates each other and doesnt want to use paper to destroy rock and think they should be able to do it with scissors while rock thinks it should take a group of paper to kill it while paper wants to do it solo. CCP have really messed up the balancing by generally hitting everything or one side with a nerf bat while buffing the other side but also it doesnt help when one side has advanced/proto and the otherside has basic. This has lead to massive imbalance between the 2 sides and whats even worse is that the balance between the 2 types of tanking (shield/armor) is just as unbalanced and vehicle users feel that they are forced to go into armor tanking whether they like it or not while pilots are completely screwed with each patch and build and are effectively flying a coffin. Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV instead of a solo monkey which whacks his 1.5mil HAV in 3shots while he sunk 10mil into vehicle skills and the AV guy barely did a quarter of it. You can see why the HAV guy gets pissed off and i don't blame him but also the AV guy is like 'well i should be able to if he's stupid enough' which is valid for stupid pilots anyways and then add in the real world argument that a RPG can disable and destroy a mulit million dollar tank/helicopter. Both sides get pissed off and think they are right and it becomes a ** throwing forum match and i have taken part in a fair few and nothing ever comes of it and it eventually gets lost in the forums and forgotten about. The balance is one which will never truly happen but the only way to get it about right is if both sides can agree on a number of issues and for that to happen we need all the AV equipment which is going to be added and all the vehicles aswell but until that happens the next best step we can do is balance what we have and hopefully this thread can address a few issues and also solve a few too while hopefully adding some good ideas but expect bad ones aswell. At this current time i have 14mil SP invested into vehicles, i have both sets of HAVs (excluding useless Enforcers), armor/shield DS, armor Logi DS and a Logi LAV but i have a tried out all vehicles and destroyed all vehicles with everything the game has to offer at one point or another through the varying builds and take part in all game modes including PC where basic vehicles go against proto AV. I dont know it all but i know quite a bit and i know what pisses me off as vehicle pilot so if im slightly bias i can't help it but i try to be on the level with what i say and i try not to repeat myself but sometimes its needed because one thing can effect something else and so on until you come full circle. Essentially dont turn this into a ** throwing thread, disagree yes but put why and in some detail and dont have posts like 'learn to fly' which are useless because in the end both sides dont get what they want and end up in a worse position from where they started from. Its a long thread and there is no TLDR i see no problem with 1 HAV annoying an entire team, but requiring a group to counter it. after all, i dont see battleship pilots in EVE getting solo'd by frigates with civilian guns. HAVs are the same thing, the back bone of the assault force
DeathwindRising ROGUE SPADES EoN. 28	Posted - 2013.06.18 18:58:00 - [2] - Quote [quote=EnglishSnake] Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV instead of a solo monkey which whacks his 1.5mil HAV in 3shots while he sunk 10mil into vehicle skills and the AV guy barely did a quarter of it. You can see why the HAV guy gets pissed off and i don't blame him but also the AV guy is like 'well i should be able to if he's stupid enough' which is valid for stupid pilots anyways and then add in the real world argument that a RPG can disable and destroy a mulit million dollar tank/helicopter. /quote] HAV's dont have any countermeasures to av weapons like tanks do in real life. where are our smoke grenades, flares, and chaff? We need smoke to conceal ourselves from forge guns, chaff or flares to defend against swarm launchers. I'd even go so far as to make smoke grenades keep swarm launchers from locking onto vehicles concealed by smoke.
DeathwindRising ROGUE SPADES EoN. 28	Posted - 2013.06.18 19:27:00 - [3] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Gold Zapa wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Balancing Basic problems Militia AV - It's too good, alot of players do use them against basic vehicles, you want players to try them out sure but you also want players to specialize into AV if they like it. Reduce militia AV by 50% damage Militia Vehicles - The LAV is generally too good now since the HP buff, even the HAV got a HP buff which wasn't needed, so remove the buff to militia vehicles, dropship stays the same. This would generally stop militia LAV as murder taxis since they would be more like paper so easier to take out AV nades - Many assault/logis use this as their main source of AV because they are skilled mostly into their primary and dropsuit/mods, problem is they are very good for knocking out a HAV on its own, the nades should be more of a deterrent and not as a standalone AV weapon to be put next to the SL/FG/PL, it should be used with the AV weapons. I would reduce the damage by 25-50%, also it would help if we could see how much damage they do to begin with . Realize the fact that AV nades useful to many people just the way it is,yes the Militia are a bit powerful and should fix that. However if if you were to reduce the damage of all the other AV Nades we might as well just throw rocks at the vehicles Like i said we dont even know the damage values of AV nades to begin with Packed AV does what 1200 or so, what the hell does proto do? I put down 25-50% as a really rough estimate but until we get exact damage numbers then we cant really say but they are not legitimate AV, they are ther a deterent for infantry to carry and also to help out as they defend ther AV guys from infantry They can kill a LAV fine and put some hurt and maybe even get to kill the MAVs we get but to outright kill a HAV with just AV nades? only if the pilot stays there for too long with nothing running, shouldnt be 3nades and less than half health but once again can be proto AV nades against our basic vehicles so we need our advanced/proto vehicles or temp remove proto AV I got hit with 3 Ex-11 av grenades for a lil over 13k damage. they cost 8k isk lol where my adv turret costs 200k isk. can i just open the hatch on my tank and throw av grenades out of it, and skip the turrets all together?