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NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
297
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
First lets look at their stats: ----------------Caldari Assauault: Caldari Logi: PG:-----------60-----------------------70 CPU:---------300---------------------390 Shield:-------210---------------------180 Armor:-------120----------------------90 SR:-----------25/s---------------------20/s SRD:---------5s-----------------------4s SDRD:-------8s-----------------------6s MS:-----------5-------------------------4.7 SS:-----------7--------------------------6.6 SD:----------15s-----------------------11.5 Stamina:---150-----------------------111.5 S recovery:15/s----------------------12/s EHP:---------412.5--------------------337.5(75 HP difference)
So what is logistics suit? From it's stats, it's a medium suit that's traded in some of it's base speed, health, and stamina for a higher slot count, while also switching it's side arm for equipment so that it can support it's team instead of slaying(Amarr logi excluded).
So is losing the side arm worth the extra equipment? First, let me ask you something. What side arm do most laser users use? A SMG? Bingo. Why? Because their laser is weak in CQC and does less damage to armor, while the SMG is the opposite of that. So what does a siderm do? It allows the player to overcome the inherent weakness of their main weapon, and gives them an emergency weapon incase they run out of ammo. Logis on the other hand exchange that combat adaptability in order to support their teamates. A side arm deal damage to the enemies, a repair tool heals your teammates. a side arm can kill your enemies, a nanite injector can revive your teammates. A siderm gives you back ammo, a nano-hive gives your team more ammo.
All in all I'd say the two are pretty well balanced.
Now then, shield extenders... A logi can fit 5 while an assault can fit 4, that's 330 and 264 respectively. Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 264 = 667.5 EHP Caldari Logistics: 337.5 + 330 = 667.5 EHP
Nothing wrong so far, in fact the logi suit is losing since it's slower.
Except... that Caldari logi bonus... 5% + to shield extenders per level, with 5 extenders that leads to 412.5 HP from extenders alone, that's the assault suits entire base EHP.
So 412.5 + 337.5 = 750 EHP 750(L) - 667.5(A) = 82.5 HP difference.
That's a bit too much in my opinion.
My possible solutions:
1. Bring down the Caladri bonus from 5% per lvl to 2-3% instead. That would result in a 33- 49.5 HP difference, in favor of the logi, which in my opinion is acceptable considering it's also slower.
2: Change the assault class bonus to something useful, my suggestion? 2% weapon damage per level, so that at level 5 it's the equivalent of a permanent complex damage module, this I think would give combat oriented people more of a reason to spec into assault suit instead of logistcs.
Edit: touch their light weapons and I will cut you! |
Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
200
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Changing the assault bonus to damage would be a good start, especially for Gallente players where shield recharge rate for their 120 shields means jack squat. I still don't think a logi needs to be tanking as much as an assault player though, but that's up for debate. |
Phoenix Arakyd
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
67
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:First lets look at their stats: ---------------- Caldari Assauault: Caldari Logi: PG:-----------60-----------------------70 CPU:---------300---------------------390 Shield:-------210---------------------180 Armor:-------120----------------------90 SR:-----------25/s---------------------20/s SRD:---------5s-----------------------4s SDRD:-------8s-----------------------6s MS:-----------5-------------------------4.7 SS:-----------7--------------------------6.6 SD:----------15s-----------------------11.5 Stamina:---150-----------------------111.5 S recovery:15/s----------------------12/s EHP:---------412.5--------------------337.5(75 HP difference) So what is logistics suit? From it's stats, it's a medium suit that's traded in some of it's base speed, health, and stamina for a higher slot count, while also switching it's side arm for equipment so that it can support it's team instead of slaying(Amarr logi excluded). So is losing the side arm worth the extra equipment? First, let me ask you something. What side arm do most laser users use? A SMG? Bingo. Why? Because their laser is weak in CQC and does less damage to armor, while the SMG is the opposite of that. So what does a siderm do? It allows the player to overcome the inherent weakness of their main weapon, and gives them an emergency weapon incase they run out of ammo. Logis on the other hand exchange that combat adaptability in order to support their teamates. A side arm deal damage to the enemies, a repair tool heals your teammates. a side arm can kill your enemies, a nanite injector can revive your teammates. A siderm gives you back ammo, a nano-hive gives your team more ammo. All in all I'd say the two are pretty well balanced. Now then, shield extenders... A logi can fit 5 while an assault can fit 4, that's 330 and 264 respectively. Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 264 = 667.5 EHP Caldari Logistics: 337.5 + 330 = 667.5 EHP Nothing wrong so far, in fact the logi suit is losing since it's slower. Except... that Caldari logi bonus... 5% + to shield extenders per level, with 5 extenders that leads to 412.5 HP from extenders alone, that's the assault suits entire base EHP. So 412.5 + 337.5 = 750 EHP 750(L) - 667.5(A) = 82.5 HP difference. That's a bit too much in my opinion. My possible solutions: 1. Bring down the Caladri bonus from 5% per lvl to 2-3% instead. That would result in a 33- 49.5 HP difference, in favor of the logi, which in my opinion is acceptable considering it's also slower. 2: Change the assault class bonus to something useful, my suggestion? 2% weapon damage per level, so that at level 5 it's the equivalent of a permanent complex damage module, this I think would give combat oriented people more of a reason to spec into assault suit instead of logistcs. Edit: touch their light weapons and I will cut you!
I've been saying the bonus needs to be 2% per level. That will go a long way, and probably fix the suit. People calling for across the board nerfs to all logis dont understand balance. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
297
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:\ I still don't think a logi needs to be tanking as much as an assault player though, but that's up for debate. Yes, it is up for debate, they can't help you if they're dead. They aren't redline medics, they're combat medics, they have to be in the firefight themselves if they're actually going to help you. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
297
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Phoenix Arakyd wrote: I've been saying the bonus needs to be 2% per level. That will go a long way, and probably fix the suit. People calling for across the board nerfs to all logis dont understand balance.
That's cause most people don't care about anything that isn't an assault suit with an AR. |
Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
200
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:\I still don't think a logi needs to be tanking as much as an assault player though, but that's up for debate. Yes, it is up for debate, they can't help you if they're dead. They aren't redline medics, they're combat medics, they have to be in the firefight themselves if they're actually going to help you. Well that's my point exactly. They're in the combat supporting the assaults but they aren't engaging in head-to-head combat with others that they would need as much as assaults. I imagine most players in a firefight will shoot the guy shooting them, not the one providing ammo and a bit of reps. So assaults should have a bit more armor. I'm not saying give them no mod slots, but they should be a little under the assaults. |
Polish Hammer
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
394
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:That's cause most people don't care about anything that isn't an assault suit with an AR. So much truth I can't even I don't even |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
298
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:\I still don't think a logi needs to be tanking as much as an assault player though, but that's up for debate. Yes, it is up for debate, they can't help you if they're dead. They aren't redline medics, they're combat medics, they have to be in the firefight themselves if they're actually going to help you. Well that's my point exactly. They're in the combat supporting the assaults but they aren't engaging in head-to-head combat with others that they would need as much as assaults. I imagine most players in a firefight will shoot the guy shooting them, not the one providing ammo and a bit of reps. So assaults should have a bit more armor/shields. I'm not saying give them no mod slots, but they should be a little under the assaults. ...Except, we don''t have any of the Geneva Conventions stuff in Dust, and people do indeed shoot the medic. That's why good logis can hold their own in a gunfight, the Caldari logi just holds his own a little too well... but that logis should have more health (or at least the same amount) is a no brainer, they're slower and therefore will get hit more.
Edit: the exception is of course the Amarr logi, who trades some health for his equipment slots since he doesn't lose his side arm. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
299
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
No one with an actual reason as for why the entire logi class needs to get nerfed and not just the Caldari suit? |
Er'ith Minour
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
I guess I am alone in feeling that the Caldari Logi suits are not as GOOD as they could be?
All those shields are great, till you get fluxed.
Then you are dead.
The SP cost of the CaLogi is dumb. I dropped 8mil sp and just have Advanced suits and Advanced gear to fit on it (GEKs and whatnot)
I would gladly trade 60-80 hp of the shields on the damned thing for a third low power slot so I can put some freakin armor on...
Just sayin... |
|
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
300
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Er'ith Minour wrote: I would gladly trade 60-80 hp of the shields on the damned thing for a third low power slot so I can put some freakin armor on...
Just sayin...
You do have 3 low slots... well, at prototype level. |
P14GU3
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:No one with an actual reason as for why the entire logi class needs to get nerfed and not just the Caldari suit? Nope. You sir, got a like for OP. I would like to add that I think the logistics "role" is its equipment, so maybe its role bonus should reflect that? Give caldari a recharge bonus, give gallente a rep bonus, keep the amarr and mini bonuses, and make all logistics suits get a decrease to equipment pg/cpu cost. Lower cpu and pg to be more in line with assaults, and finally, give assualts a reason to use them. A 2-3% damage bonus or something (of course that would remove the increase we just got most likely) |
Scramble Scrub
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
169
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Change the caldari assault reload bonus to a shield regulation bonus. That way it can survive as a fast, self regenerating suit.
Oh man I just got fluxed! Oh wait, nvm my shields are recharging
|
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:\I still don't think a logi needs to be tanking as much as an assault player though, but that's up for debate. Yes, it is up for debate, they can't help you if they're dead. They aren't redline medics, they're combat medics, they have to be in the firefight themselves if they're actually going to help you. Well that's my point exactly. They're in the combat supporting the assaults but they aren't engaging in head-to-head combat with others that they would need as much as assaults. I imagine most players in a firefight will shoot the guy shooting them, not the one providing ammo and a bit of reps. So assaults should have a bit more armor/shields. I'm not saying give them no mod slots, but they should be a little under the assaults.
You would be wrong then, because everyone shoots at yellow before they shoot anything else. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
3114
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Phoenix Arakyd wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:First lets look at their stats: ---------------- Caldari Assauault: Caldari Logi: PG:-----------60-----------------------70 CPU:---------300---------------------390 Shield:-------210---------------------180 Armor:-------120----------------------90 SR:-----------25/s---------------------20/s SRD:---------5s-----------------------4s SDRD:-------8s-----------------------6s MS:-----------5-------------------------4.7 SS:-----------7--------------------------6.6 SD:----------15s-----------------------11.5 Stamina:---150-----------------------111.5 S recovery:15/s----------------------12/s EHP:---------412.5--------------------337.5(75 HP difference) So what is logistics suit? From it's stats, it's a medium suit that's traded in some of it's base speed, health, and stamina for a higher slot count, while also switching it's side arm for equipment so that it can support it's team instead of slaying(Amarr logi excluded). So is losing the side arm worth the extra equipment? First, let me ask you something. What side arm do most laser users use? A SMG? Bingo. Why? Because their laser is weak in CQC and does less damage to armor, while the SMG is the opposite of that. So what does a siderm do? It allows the player to overcome the inherent weakness of their main weapon, and gives them an emergency weapon incase they run out of ammo. Logis on the other hand exchange that combat adaptability in order to support their teamates. A side arm deal damage to the enemies, a repair tool heals your teammates. a side arm can kill your enemies, a nanite injector can revive your teammates. A siderm gives you back ammo, a nano-hive gives your team more ammo. All in all I'd say the two are pretty well balanced. Now then, shield extenders... A logi can fit 5 while an assault can fit 4, that's 330 and 264 respectively. Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 264 = 667.5 EHP Caldari Logistics: 337.5 + 330 = 667.5 EHP Nothing wrong so far, in fact the logi suit is losing since it's slower. Except... that Caldari logi bonus... 5% + to shield extenders per level, with 5 extenders that leads to 412.5 HP from extenders alone, that's the assault suits entire base EHP. So 412.5 + 337.5 = 750 EHP 750(L) - 667.5(A) = 82.5 HP difference. That's a bit too much in my opinion. My possible solutions: 1. Bring down the Caladri bonus from 5% per lvl to 2-3% instead. That would result in a 33- 49.5 HP difference, in favor of the logi, which in my opinion is acceptable considering it's also slower. 2: Change the assault class bonus to something useful, my suggestion? 2% weapon damage per level, so that at level 5 it's the equivalent of a permanent complex damage module, this I think would give combat oriented people more of a reason to spec into assault suit instead of logistcs. Edit: touch their light weapons and I will cut you! I've been saying the bonus needs to be 2% per level. That will go a long way, and probably fix the suit. People calling for across the board nerfs to all logis dont understand balance.
this. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
305
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Updated cause I got my numbers wrong the first time. |
Thor Odinson42
Planetary Response Organization
196
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:Changing the assault bonus to damage would be a good start, especially for Gallente players where shield recharge rate for their 120 shields means jack squat. I still don't think a logi needs to be tanking as much as an assault player though, but that's up for debate. Play a few rounds with a repair tool attached to a heavy and talk to me about lowering the tank. |
Deluxe Edition
TeamPlayers EoN.
160
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote: So is losing the side arm worth the extra equipment? First, let me ask you something. What side arm do most laser users use? A SMG? Bingo. Why? Because their laser is weak in CQC and does less damage to armor, while the SMG is the opposite of that. So what does a siderm do? It allows the player to overcome the inherent weakness of their main weapon, and gives them an emergency weapon incase they run out of ammo. Logis on the other hand exchange that combat adaptability in order to support their teamates. A side arm deals damage to the enemies, a repair tool heals your teammates. A side arm can kill your enemies, a nanite injector can revive your teammates. A siderm gives you more ammo, a nano-hive gives your whole team more ammo.
Your logic breaks when the Logi uses an AR. AR's are all around weapon with no apperant weakness but also no real strength. Using them makes side arms a luxury and definately not a need. Therefore what man assault players have done (most assaults should use and assault weapon (AR, Scrambler Rifle, Whatever the caladari and minmitar varients will be) is use the large amount of PG and CPU to available to the logi make a superior suit for killing than what you can do with the assault suit due to PG/CPU constraints. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
307
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Deluxe Edition wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote: So is losing the side arm worth the extra equipment? First, let me ask you something. What side arm do most laser users use? A SMG? Bingo. Why? Because their laser is weak in CQC and does less damage to armor, while the SMG is the opposite of that. So what does a siderm do? It allows the player to overcome the inherent weakness of their main weapon, and gives them an emergency weapon incase they run out of ammo. Logis on the other hand exchange that combat adaptability in order to support their teamates. A side arm deals damage to the enemies, a repair tool heals your teammates. A side arm can kill your enemies, a nanite injector can revive your teammates. A siderm gives you more ammo, a nano-hive gives your whole team more ammo.
Your logic breaks when the Logi uses an AR. AR's are all around weapon with no apperant weakness but also no real strength. Using them makes side arms a luxury and definately not a need. Therefore what man assault players have done (most assaults should use and assault weapon (AR, Scrambler Rifle, Whatever the caladari and minmitar varients will be) is use the large amount of PG and CPU to available to the logi make a superior suit for killing than what you can do with the assault suit due to PG/CPU constraints. Assault rifles are still 110% shields, 90% armor, switching to an SMG (or flaylock)against a heavy is better... if you ran out of grenades or something Also, using a scrambler and switching to the SMG or Flaylock would get the kill faster than just trying to kill a heavy with an AR, just cause it's balanced(sort of) doesn't mean it's more efficient all the time
Also, Logis cost more
That Ammo point still stands though, and I believe damage bonus would make assault players better killers wouldn't it? |
DudeMcGuy 06
L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:Phoenix Arakyd wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:First lets look at their stats: ---------------- Caldari Assauault: Caldari Logi: PG:-----------60-----------------------70 CPU:---------300---------------------390 Shield:-------210---------------------180 Armor:-------120----------------------90 SR:-----------25/s---------------------20/s SRD:---------5s-----------------------4s SDRD:-------8s-----------------------6s MS:-----------5-------------------------4.7 SS:-----------7--------------------------6.6 SD:----------15s-----------------------11.5 Stamina:---150-----------------------111.5 S recovery:15/s----------------------12/s EHP:---------412.5--------------------337.5(75 HP difference) So what is logistics suit? From it's stats, it's a medium suit that's traded in some of it's base speed, health, and stamina for a higher slot count, while also switching it's side arm for equipment so that it can support it's team instead of slaying(Amarr logi excluded). So is losing the side arm worth the extra equipment? First, let me ask you something. What side arm do most laser users use? A SMG? Bingo. Why? Because their laser is weak in CQC and does less damage to armor, while the SMG is the opposite of that. So what does a siderm do? It allows the player to overcome the inherent weakness of their main weapon, and gives them an emergency weapon incase they run out of ammo. Logis on the other hand exchange that combat adaptability in order to support their teamates. A side arm deal damage to the enemies, a repair tool heals your teammates. a side arm can kill your enemies, a nanite injector can revive your teammates. A siderm gives you back ammo, a nano-hive gives your team more ammo. All in all I'd say the two are pretty well balanced. Now then, shield extenders... A logi can fit 5 while an assault can fit 4, that's 330 and 264 respectively. Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 264 = 667.5 EHP Caldari Logistics: 337.5 + 330 = 667.5 EHP Nothing wrong so far, in fact the logi suit is losing since it's slower. Except... that Caldari logi bonus... 5% + to shield extenders per level, with 5 extenders that leads to 412.5 HP from extenders alone, that's the assault suits entire base EHP. So 412.5 + 337.5 = 750 EHP 750(L) - 667.5(A) = 82.5 HP difference. That's a bit too much in my opinion. My possible solutions: 1. Bring down the Caladri bonus from 5% per lvl to 2-3% instead. That would result in a 33- 49.5 HP difference, in favor of the logi, which in my opinion is acceptable considering it's also slower. 2: Change the assault class bonus to something useful, my suggestion? 2% weapon damage per level, so that at level 5 it's the equivalent of a permanent complex damage module, this I think would give combat oriented people more of a reason to spec into assault suit instead of logistcs. Edit: touch their light weapons and I will cut you! I've been saying the bonus needs to be 2% per level. That will go a long way, and probably fix the suit. People calling for across the board nerfs to all logis dont understand balance. this.
+1
|
|
Deluxe Edition
TeamPlayers EoN.
160
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
I agree with a switch to dmg for assault suits and reduce slightly nerf the calidari logi shield bonus. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
309
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 05:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Do you see this CCP? Nerf the Caldari logi, leave us other logis alone! |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
313
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 16:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
Bump, because too many people still think logis are OP. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
315
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 17:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
The amount of feedback depresses me |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1219
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 18:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Listen....the caldari logi suit is just ridiculous. In this build, it seems as if CCP wants to everyone to specialize and not one suit being able to do it all or even more than one role. And I fully understand that. But the caldari logi is the only one that can do it all. What do they need with 5 high and 4 low power slots? Why is their shield delay faster than an assault suit?
Many assault guys are using common sense and going with the logi suit because they get all of those mods and multiple equipment slots. I hear people saying that a scout suit shouldnt get an extra equipment slot because they are taking logi's roles from them. Well, logi suits are taking assault roles. The only thing a logi needs to have in order to fill their role is multiple equipment slots. Having 600+ shields, etc is not necessary and it needs to be changed to exhibit a more clear difference in suits. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
316
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 18:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Listen....the caldari logi suit is just ridiculous. In this build, it seems as if CCP wants to everyone to specialize and not one suit being able to do it all or even more than one role. And I fully understand that. But the caldari logi is the only one that can do it all. What do they need with 5 high and 4 low power slots? Why is their shield delay faster than an assault suit?
Many assault guys are using common sense and going with the logi suit because they get all of those mods and multiple equipment slots. I hear people saying that a scout suit shouldnt get an extra equipment slot because they are taking logi's roles from them. Well, logi suits are taking assault roles. The only thing a logi needs to have in order to fill their role is multiple equipment slots. Having 600+ shields, etc is not necessary and it needs to be changed to exhibit a more clear difference in suits. Didn't even read the thread, did you? -_-"
Oh god... |
Rogatien Merc
Ill Omens EoN.
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 18:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:. They're in the combat supporting the assaults but they aren't engaging in head-to-head combat with others that they would need as much as assaults. I imagine most players in a firefight will shoot the guy shooting them, not the one providing ammo and a bit of reps.
You made me LOL.
Keep doin that bro. Hope it works for ya. |
Jeremiah ambromot
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 18:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
There may need to be some adjustment but not as much as people are suggesting. Suits should not be limited to cookie cutter classes I should be able to pick any suit and do what I think is fun. Dust was billed as a game with choices and limiting cuts them out. By getting rid of starter classes ccp is showing that they want to move away from class system. If I want to run around in a slower suit and not be able to be leading the fight let people pick the logi. If I want to be first to the battle let people pick scout. If I want to balance speed with atack let them pick assault. If you can fit it on a suit you should be able to play it. Also do not ever remove the logi light weapon class unless you want no medics as well. If they can not defend themselves they can not help you.
In summary do not limit people's choices. |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1223
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Listen....the caldari logi suit is just ridiculous. In this build, it seems as if CCP wants to everyone to specialize and not one suit being able to do it all or even more than one role. And I fully understand that. But the caldari logi is the only one that can do it all. What do they need with 5 high and 4 low power slots? Why is their shield delay faster than an assault suit?
Many assault guys are using common sense and going with the logi suit because they get all of those mods and multiple equipment slots. I hear people saying that a scout suit shouldnt get an extra equipment slot because they are taking logi's roles from them. Well, logi suits are taking assault roles. The only thing a logi needs to have in order to fill their role is multiple equipment slots. Having 600+ shields, etc is not necessary and it needs to be changed to exhibit a more clear difference in suits. Didn't even read the thread, did you? -_-" Oh god... Quote:the caldari logi is the only one that can do it all. You clearly see the problem. Quote:logi suits are taking assault roles. The only thing a logi needs to have in order to fill their role is multiple equipment slots. You then ignored the problem and threw us all under the bus.
No...I didn't read all of the theads. Just decided to post my own thoughts on the topic instead of just creating my own. I'm thinking that you would be glad that I just bumped your thread.
And although I wrote "logi suits", I am referring to the caldari logi. Because the caldari logi suit is the problem. But my opinion on logi suits needing multiple equipment slots to fulfill their role still stands. I'd like an extra equipment slot as an assault guy but I understand why I don't have one anymore. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
317
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I'm thinking that you would be glad that I just bumped your thread.
I actually am lol
Quote:And although I wrote "logi suits", I am referring to the caldari logi. Because the caldari logi suit is the problem. But my opinion on logi suits needing multiple equipment slots to fulfill their role still stands. I'd like an extra equipment slot as an assault guy but I understand why I don't have one anymore.
I don't particularly see why assaults or scouts shouldn't get 1 more equipment slot, especially now that nono-hives got nerfed. |
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DudeMcGuy 06
L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
^The nanohive are only nerfed at the basic and militia level. Advanced level and above give more than double the clusters of the standard.
CCP did this to force people to skill up more in the nanohives. It was far too easy in the previous build to just use guaged nanohives (only lvl 2) and never bother leveling up anymore. |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1223
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I'm thinking that you would be glad that I just bumped your thread. I actually am lol Quote:And although I wrote "logi suits", I am referring to the caldari logi. Because the caldari logi suit is the problem. But my opinion on logi suits needing multiple equipment slots to fulfill their role still stands. I'd like an extra equipment slot as an assault guy but I understand why I don't have one anymore. I don't particularly see why assaults or scouts shouldn't get 1 more equipment slot, especially now that nono-hives got nerfed.
Their reasoning is because they want everyone to specialize and no roles to overlap suits. I dig it |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1223
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
DudeMcGuy 06 wrote:^The nanohive are only nerfed at the basic and militia level. Advanced level and above give more than double the clusters of the standard.
CCP did this to force people to skill up more in the nanohives. It was far too easy in the previous build to just use guaged nanohives (only lvl 2) and never bother leveling up anymore.
yeah but now we have to use proto nanohives in order to have a competent nanohive? Or, they're forcing you to squad up with a logi. |
DudeMcGuy 06
L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
I think the K-2 is more than enough for a single person Ydubbs. If you want to be able to resupply your whole squad then yes, Proto should be required. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
317
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:36:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Their reasoning is because they want everyone to specialize and no roles to overlap suits. I dig it
But all suits overlap in the killing department, what makes the assault suit special? Nothing. That's why I believe they should be given a damage bonus, either 1-2% per level, that way the assault class specializes in dealing damage. It would give people a reason to skill into assaults, and not logis, if they want to be "slayers".
It would also give them an actual reason to ditch the basic suit. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
317
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:39:00 -
[36] - Quote
I mean, does anyone have a problem with assault players getting a damage bonus? |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
240
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:44:00 -
[37] - Quote
The Caldari Logistics suit is the ONLY logi suit that needs a rework and the reasons for that are as follows. Its OP, its an assault suit without a Side arm. It can have 600+ shields, and 500+ armor depending on which way you want to go. It has a fast recharge rate, and 5 hp/s for armor based off the racial skill. It has 5 high slots, 4 low slots, and 3 equipment slots, along with a higher base CPU and PG level making the related skills effect them even more. The speed/sidarm penalty is nothing compared to the bonuses it gets on the utility side. I don't know how it would be balanced, but when the logi is better at combat then the assault, then somethings wrong. Flux grenades arnt an excuse for this, you cant expect everyone to run something like that simply because of one OP suit. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
317
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 19:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:The Caldari Logistics suit is the ONLY logi suit that needs a rework and the reasons for that are as follows. Its OP, its an assault suit without a Side arm. It can have 600+ shields, and 500+ armor depending on which way you want to go. It has a fast recharge rate, and 5 hp/s for armor based off the racial skill. It has 5 high slots, 4 low slots, and 3 equipment slots, along with a higher base CPU and PG level making the related skills effect them even more. The speed/sidarm penalty is nothing compared to the bonuses it gets on the utility side. I don't know how it would be balanced, but when the logi is better at combat then the assault, then somethings wrong. Flux grenades arnt an excuse for this, you cant expect everyone to run something like that simply because of one OP suit. That's what I've been saying, the bonus is the problem here. Without it it would have slightly less HP than the assault suit, while still a bit slower. |
Belzeebub Santana
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
475
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 20:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
Caldari problem: The assault also effectively has two less lower slots.
The logi has 5 highs and 4 Lows where the assault has 4 highs and 3 lows.
But Belzee you just said assault has 2 less lower slots.
I said "effectively" has two less because the 5 hp/s the logi suit gets as a bonus negates having to run an armor repper let alone a complex armor repper that cost the suit 45 CPU and 11PG.
Also the fact that logi gets a stupid shields depleted and restart rate that stacking 2 complex shield regin cuts the time in half so they get their shields back in 3 seconds if depleted or 2 seconds if not. Then a logi can put a complex armor repper and get 10hp/s without delay so even if you get through their shields their armor is repairing them as you shoot them, you reload and their shields are getting replenished along with whatever armor you happened to scratch.
This isn't even ging into the racial bonus the suit gets. So again with a straight face tell me how this isn't OP? |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
320
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 20:44:00 -
[40] - Quote
Belzeebub Santana wrote:The logi has 5 highs and 4 Lows where the assault has 4 highs and 3 lows. Logi gets 3 lows, not 4
Quote:I said "effectively" has two less because the 5 hp/s the logi suit gets as a bonus negates having to run an armor repper let alone a complex armor repper that cost the suit 45 CPU and 11PG. By that logic, the assault suit also gets a permanent high/low slot since it has more HP, more than a shield extenders worth. They then also get whatever the shield regen bonus is worth, though admittedly, I don't think that counts for much.
Quote:This isn't even ging into the racial bonus the suit gets. That is the only problem here.
Quote:So again with a straight face tell me how this isn't OP? Never said it wasn't, in fact, just 4 Complex shield extenders equals another complex shield extender thanks to their bonus, that last slot can then be used for a damage mod or another extender for maximum OP'ness.
Though I do believe this would all get fixed if they tweaked/changed the Caldari logi's bonus, and gave assault users a damage bonus instead of improved recharge rate.
The Caldari logi suit is OP and needs to be looked at. |
|
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
329
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 00:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
So can we all agree that the Caldari logi's bonus needs to change, and that all assault suits should get a damage bonus? |
Purona
Militaires Sans Jeux
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 01:28:00 -
[42] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:So can we all agree that the Caldari logi's bonus needs to change, and that all assault suits should get a damage bonus?
no
caldaris logics are fine as is |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 02:20:00 -
[43] - Quote
Purona wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:So can we all agree that the Caldari logi's bonus needs to change, and that all assault suits should get a damage bonus? no caldaris logics are fine as is Sure... care to explain your position on the subject? "fine as is" doesn't exactly mean anything |
IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:01:00 -
[44] - Quote
I don't think the bonus is that op. besides, you can't even fit 5 CSE and have a decent fit. You gimp the rest of your suit load out just for straight hp stacking. That's 55 pg before you even put on a weapon, let alone armor plates.
Proto suits, with all level 5 skills should be a terror. You assume the best possible scenario.
I don't even run cal logi since I felt the bonus was wasted. You HAVE to fit a SE to even get the bonus.
I def think their slot layout is op. that could use a tweak, but their bonus is fine..
No suit needs an inherent dmg bonus. Rate of fire, cool down, reload etc are all going to give you more dps. But percent damage is a bad way to balance. Aka tac ar issues now. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
331
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:17:00 -
[45] - Quote
Well, I'm pretty sure that with all PG increasing skills they would have about 102 PG available (the 5% from core upgrades, and then the 25% from the main PG skill)
Though you're right in that it would be a best possible scenario, I can't actually see if that would all fit including a proto weapon and decent equipment myself since I don't use them. We really need a way to test fittings.
Are there any Caldari Logi users that could give feedback on fitting possibilities? |
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1014
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:33:00 -
[46] - Quote
TBH my main problem with logis is that they're too good at killing. What does that leave the assault at? ... Nothing?
That 10% damage would be perfect. Also give my Gallente the repping bonus, I am using two complex armor reps because otherwise I will stay in cover forever. So whatever the minor HP bonus I get from using plates, complex shield extenders beat me, because they can fit multiple of those while still regenerating faster. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
333
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:41:00 -
[47] - Quote
And now all my math has been rendered usless, since complex extenders actually give 72.6 HP thanks to their skill -_-, ughh, time for more maths...
This thread is now under construction... again. |
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1014
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:46:00 -
[48] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:And now all my math has been rendered usless, since complex extenders actually give 72.6 HP thanks to their skill -_-, ughh, time for more maths...
This thread is now under construction... again. That would be 89.1HP per extender. LOL, Armor tanking giving more HP my ass. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
333
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:50:00 -
[49] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:And now all my math has been rendered usless, since complex extenders actually give 72.6 HP thanks to their skill -_-, ughh, time for more maths...
This thread is now under construction... again. That would be 89.1HP per extender. LOL, Armor tanking giving more HP my ass. Nah, it's 72.6 with the skill at 5, 90.75 with caldari logi skill...
that's 363 for 4, and 453.75 if they can find a way to fit 5 |
II-X-II
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:55:00 -
[50] - Quote
As a Logi here is my suggestion.
Give all Logi suites a -5% damage penalty, we should be focused on support anyway.
Also do not allow any Logi suites to equip damage increasing mods on high slots. That alone may stop anyone from trying to turn the suite into an assault varient.
Logi's that picked the role to run support would be ok with it. |
|
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1014
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 04:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Cat Merc wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:And now all my math has been rendered usless, since complex extenders actually give 72.6 HP thanks to their skill -_-, ughh, time for more maths...
This thread is now under construction... again. That would be 89.1HP per extender. LOL, Armor tanking giving more HP my ass. Nah, it's 72.6 with the skill at 5, 90.75 with caldari logi skill... that's 363 for 4, and 453.75 if they can find a way to fit 5 Nah man, all bonuses are calculated together. 10% from the skill, + 25% from the bonus = 35%. 66 * 1.35 = 89.1. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
333
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:01:00 -
[52] - Quote
II-X-II wrote: Give all Logi suites a -5% damage penalty, we should be focused on support anyway.
That any class would do less damage than all the others makes no sense.
Quote:Also do not allow any Logi suites to equip damage increasing mods on high slots. That alone may stop anyone from trying to turn the suite into an assault varient.
Stacking penalties already take care of that.
Anyone who picked logis just so they could earn WP without having to get their hands dirty is a bad logi, logis are just as much combat oriented as they are support, and any good logi can hold their own in a fight. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
333
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:02:00 -
[53] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote: Nah man, all bonuses are calculated together. 10% from the skill, + 25% from the bonus = 35%. 66 * 1.35 = 89.1.
You sure? Pretty sure they're multiplicative |
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1014
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:05:00 -
[54] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Cat Merc wrote: Nah man, all bonuses are calculated together. 10% from the skill, + 25% from the bonus = 35%. 66 * 1.35 = 89.1.
You sure? Pretty sure they're multiplicative Yup, I'm sure. Some bonuses however, like the shield regulator ones are multiplicative. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
333
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:07:00 -
[55] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Cat Merc wrote: Nah man, all bonuses are calculated together. 10% from the skill, + 25% from the bonus = 35%. 66 * 1.35 = 89.1.
You sure? Pretty sure they're multiplicative Yup, I'm sure. Some bonuses however, like the shield regulator ones are multiplicative. H'mm I just assumed since damage mods were multiplicative, alright, I'll use 89.1 for all the maths. Thank you for that. |
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1014
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:09:00 -
[56] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Cat Merc wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Cat Merc wrote: Nah man, all bonuses are calculated together. 10% from the skill, + 25% from the bonus = 35%. 66 * 1.35 = 89.1.
You sure? Pretty sure they're multiplicative Yup, I'm sure. Some bonuses however, like the shield regulator ones are multiplicative. H'mm I just assumed since damage mods were multiplicative, alright, I'll use 89.1 for all the maths. Thank you for that. Damage mods are also calculated together. They however have a stacking penalty for every extra module. I don't remember how much per module, but after the 4th you get like 1-2% extra damage. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
334
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:16:00 -
[57] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote: Damage mods are also calculated together. They however have a stacking penalty for every extra module. I don't remember how much per module, but after the 4th you get like 1-2% extra damage.
Pretty sure they were multiplicative last build, which is why the penalty was needed in the first place.
1.10 x 1.10 would equal 1.21 It wasn't 1 + 0.10 + 0.10 = 1.20
o.O |
Cat Merc
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1014
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:21:00 -
[58] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Cat Merc wrote: Damage mods are also calculated together. They however have a stacking penalty for every extra module. I don't remember how much per module, but after the 4th you get like 1-2% extra damage.
Pretty sure they were multiplicative last build, which is why the penalty was needed in the first place. 1.10 x 1.10 would equal 1.21 It wasn't 1 + 0.10 + 0.10 = 1.20 o.O Nope. The stacking penalties are there to force you to use less gank. Imagine 4 complex damage mods without stacking penalties. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:22:00 -
[59] - Quote
My eyes have been opened... and now I wish I were blind again. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
340
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 06:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
Updated maths for maximum OPness |
|
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
346
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 06:57:00 -
[61] - Quote
IgniteableAura wrote:I don't think the bonus is that op. besides, you can't even fit 5 CSE and have a decent fit. You gimp the rest of your suit load out just for straight hp stacking. That's 55 pg before you even put on a weapon, let alone armor plates.
Proto suits, with all level 5 skills should be a terror. You assume the best possible scenario.
I don't even run cal logi since I felt the bonus was wasted. You HAVE to fit a SE to even get the bonus.
I def think their slot layout is op. that could use a tweak, but their bonus is fine..
No suit needs an inherent dmg bonus. Rate of fire, cool down, reload etc are all going to give you more dps. But percent damage is a bad way to balance. Aka tac ar issues now. So I did more maths, and including the the passives that leads them to having 101.4 PG Minus 55 for the extenders and you have 46.4.
That's more than enough to put some decent gear on there. The Balacs I believe is 13 PG? The most fitting expensive Nano-hive is 16 PG. With those two you have 17.4 PG left, that should fit you complex kinetic module and a basic armor repair module or shield regulator. Or you can get a power grid upgrade so you can put some grenades and more equipment.
Now, that isn't the most optimal fitting, but it certainly has a lot of possibilities. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 17:08:00 -
[62] - Quote
Quote:S recovery:15/s----------------------12/s EHP:---------412.5--------------------337.5(75 HP difference) (This was with passives included)
So what is a logistics suit? From it's stats, it's a medium suit that's traded in some of it's base speed, health, and stamina for a higher slot count, while also switching it's side arm for equipment so that it can support it's team instead of slaying(Amarr logi excluded).
So is losing the side arm worth the extra equipment? First, let me ask you something. What side arm do most laser users use? A SMG? Bingo. Why? Because their laser is weak in CQC and does less damage to armor, while the SMG is the opposite of that. So what does a siderm do? It allows the player to overcome the inherent weakness of their main weapon, and gives them an emergency weapon incase they run out of ammo. Logis on the other hand exchange that combat adaptability in order to support their teamates. A side arm deals damage to the enemies, a repair tool heals your teammates. A side arm can kill your enemies, a nanite injector can revive your teammates. A siderm gives you more ammo, a nano-hive gives your whole team more ammo.
All in all I'd say the two are pretty well balanced.
Now then, shield extenders... A logi can fit 5 while an assault can fit 4, that's 363 and 290.4 respectively, this is including the new +10% shield bonus from the skill. Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 290.4 =702.9 EHP Caldari Logistics:373.5 + 363 = 700.5 EHP
Nothing wrong so far, in fact the logi suit is losing a little since it's slower.
Except... that Caldari logi bonus... 5% + to shield extenders per level, with 5 extenders that leads to 445.5 HP from extenders alone. That's more than assault suits entire base EHP. (1 extender is worth 89.1, X that by 5) (10% shield bonus + 25% Caldari logi bonus = 35% according to Cat Merc)
So 373.5 + 445.5 = 819 EHP 819(L) - 702.9(A) = 116.1 HP difference.
This went four pages without your math getting fixed? Not sure which country's education system is responsible. Your math makes the Caldari logi look stronger.
"So 373.5 + 445.5 = 819 EHP"
Where does that number come from? It's meant to be logistics base hp with passives, right? You carried the number wrong. You have the right one at the top too:
"-337.5"
You buffed their EHP by 37hp or so with a math error.
I posted this elsewhere, but part of my suggested fix to assault suits is a hp buff.
With Caldari, At ADV level, +20 hp, and +40 to the Proto frame on top of that. It widen the HP gap on the better frames. So, as the Logi gets more slots, the Assault also get more hp. The logi can still beat the assault on shields (slightly), but requires more modules to do so.
Also, you said the logi had three lows in another post - that's incorrect. Proto Cal Logistics if 5H 4L 3E (sum of 12), this matches Minmatar 4H 4L 4E (12) and Gallente 3H 5L 4E (12). |
Zatara Rought
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
146
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 17:18:00 -
[63] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76141&find=unread
This guys a reject who continually makes incorrect assertions. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
346
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 17:44:00 -
[64] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:
This went four pages without your math getting fixed? Not sure which country's education system is responsible. Your math makes the Caldari logi look stronger.
"So 373.5 + 445.5 = 819 EHP"
Where does that number come from? It's meant to be logistics base hp with passives, right? You carried the number wrong. You have the right one at the top too:
"-337.5"
You buffed their EHP by 37hp or so with a math error.
Oh, wow, thanks for spotting that, if you look at the quotes though you'll see that mistake is new... i fee l dumb now |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
346
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 17:56:00 -
[65] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76141&find=unread
This guys a reject who continually makes incorrect assertions. Yes, I will admit to making mistakes, like getting a 0 and 8 confused Sorry, I wasn't wearing my glasses |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
346
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 18:31:00 -
[66] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote: Also, you said the logi had three lows in another post - that's incorrect. Proto Cal Logistics if 5H 4L 3E (sum of 12), this matches Minmatar 4H 4L 4E (12) and Gallente 3H 5L 4E (12).
And this is why you shouldn't base things of memories, I'll recheck and fix that. Edit: I based it of this old thread and just realized I made a mistake there too since I misread something, thanks for pointing that stuff out.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=733696#post733696 |
Hecarim Van Hohen
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 22:02:00 -
[67] - Quote
omg, accurate numbers. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
952
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 00:29:00 -
[68] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:\I still don't think a logi needs to be tanking as much as an assault player though, but that's up for debate. Yes, it is up for debate, they can't help you if they're dead. They aren't redline medics, they're combat medics, they have to be in the firefight themselves if they're actually going to help you. Well that's my point exactly. They're in the combat supporting the assaults but they aren't engaging in head-to-head combat with others that they would need as much as assaults. I imagine most players in a firefight will shoot the guy shooting them, not the one providing ammo and a bit of reps. So assaults should have a bit more armor/shields. I'm not saying give them no mod slots, but they should be a little under the assaults.
I've experienced nothing in my time from closed beta through to present which suggests to me that this assessment is accurate/comprehensive, and with the advent of Uprising (aka the "primary the bright yellow Logi" build) this is certainly not currently accurate. Now not to overstate the case I must say that these are averages we're talking so both reactions most certainly do occur but it's a question of ratios as soon as you start talking balance and tank.
The above assessment also overlooks "dps tanking" i.e. the effect of reducing incoming dps through the use of your own out going dps. A wounded enemy is more likely to retreat or die than a foe who is taking no fire from you as you're trying to revive a fallen comrade. If anything a Logi needs a bit more tank than an Assault, the Assault should have more gank and more base mobility (both of which are vicariously forms of defense, and both of which are things the Logi cannot use in many instances while preforming it's support role). With things set up as I've described the Logi is able to actually perform support actives in a live fire zone and sometimes make it home to tell the tale, but will still usually come out on the losing side of a heads up battle with an Assault. Furthermore the comparison of the two Cal suits needs to include the implications of both bonuses not simply the 'racial' because a savvy player can get a lot more eHP out of a 25% buff to shield regen than +5 hp/s armor rep.
Now all of that being said the reload speed buff does seem a bit on the weak side and likely should be swapped out for something else. If we're considering the Assault line as a whole the best fit seems to be replace the shield recharge with a %buff to damage and replace the Cal reload speak buff with a bonus to shield recharge rate. This change would not only improve the Cal suits gank/dps while maintaining it's tank it would also improve the Assault line in general as a bonus to shields for the armor tanking races is sub-optimal.
In short 'change 2' from the OP seems to be the most effective and appropriate suggestion for several reasons. In fact the only drawback of change 2 I can think of would be a damage scaling issue with suits which stack pure damage mods, however that's actually an issue with the ineffective/broken stacking penalty on damage mods and thus no reason to resist the implementation of change too because the mods need fixed with our without this change.
TL;DR Logis should have more tank, Assaults should have more gank, change 2 from the OP is the correct resolution
Cheers, Cross
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4077
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 00:30:00 -
[69] - Quote
Whoever the hell bumped this, thank you. Bookmarking for reading and digestion. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
952
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 00:34:00 -
[70] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Whoever the hell bumped this, thank you. Bookmarking for reading and digestion. You're welcome glad you've got eyes on this one. |
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4081
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:34:00 -
[71] - Quote
Oddly this doesn't get a post more and the other thread grows by another 4 pages... |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
372
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:47:00 -
[72] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Oddly this doesn't get a post more and the other thread grows by another 4 pages... Like I've said before, QQers run when hit with numbers and facts.
I hope that if CCP ever makes any changes to all logis, that they will keep this thread in mind and not make any changes that are too drastic, the differences between the logi and assault suits aren't that big, let alone big enough to justify huge over the top nerfs like CCP tends to do.
Sadly this thread is mostly filled with self bumps, so I doubt it would be that useful Aside from getting some QQers to pipe down |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
373
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 02:56:00 -
[73] - Quote
I would like to drop this off here though so that people can see some of it's fitting possibilities.
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11 PG Total = 270 CPU/ 55 PG L: Complex Shield Regulator 35 CPU/ 3 PG L: Complex Kinetic mod 27 CPU/ 15 PG L:Basic Armor Repairer 20 CPU / 1 PG L: Basic CPU Upgrade = 16% more CPU Total = 83 CPU / 19 CPU LW: Balac: 90 CPU 13 PG G: Core Locus grenade 48 CPU / 6 PG Or Allotek Flux 52 CPU / 6 PG Total: 138 or 142 CPU / 19 PG E: Ishkone Gauged Nano Hive: 59 CPU / 11PG E: Blank E: Blank Total: 59 CPU /11 PG CPU Available: 507 / PG available: 101.4 Total CPU Used: 550 or 554 CPU / PG used: 104 But that doesn't fit right? Except 507 x 1.16 = 588.12 Still not enough PG right? Assault Rifle Fitting skill(whatever it's called 13 x .25 = 3.25 104 - 3.25 = 100.75 So all this just barely fit, but is it really that much better than what can be done with a Caldari Assault Suit? Edit: Without CL bonus: Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 290.4 =702.9 EHP Caldari Logistics:337.5 + 363 = 700.5 EHP With CL Bonus: 337.5 + 445.5 = 783 EHP 783(L) - 702.9(A) = 80.1 HP difference. My god, this is game breaking Edit: Now if you used a complex CPU Upgrade, and replaced the Basic Armor repairer with a PG Upgrade, then you would be able to fill your other equipment slots, but I want all assault users to realize that this is far more expensive than your suit would ever get.
If you where to rid of even one low slot then this fit could still be used as a pseudo assault suit, but it would lose access to two equipment slots. If you change it's bonus then it no longer has 80.1 more HP. Just like Pheonix said in this thread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75779&find=unread |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4081
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 03:36:00 -
[74] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Oddly this doesn't get a post more and the other thread grows by another 4 pages... Like I've said before, QQers run when hit with numbers and facts. I hope that if CCP ever makes any changes to all logis, that they will keep this thread in mind and not make any changes that are too drastic, the differences between the logi and assault suits aren't that big, let alone big enough to justify huge over the top nerfs like CCP tends to do. Sadly this thread is mostly filled with self bumps, so I doubt it would be that useful Aside from getting some QQers to pipe down
I will be Bookmarking this thread just in case they ask. Been looking for something well above and outside of just 'words'. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
952
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 04:08:00 -
[75] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:I would like to drop this off here though so that people can see some of it's fitting possibilities. NeoWraith Acedia wrote:H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11 PG Total = 270 CPU/ 55 PG L: Complex Shield Regulator 35 CPU/ 3 PG L: Complex Kinetic mod 27 CPU/ 15 PG L:Basic Armor Repairer 20 CPU / 1 PG L: Basic CPU Upgrade = 16% more CPU Total = 83 CPU / 19 CPU LW: Balac: 90 CPU 13 PG G: Core Locus grenade 48 CPU / 6 PG Or Allotek Flux 52 CPU / 6 PG Total: 138 or 142 CPU / 19 PG E: Ishkone Gauged Nano Hive: 59 CPU / 11PG E: Blank E: Blank Total: 59 CPU /11 PG CPU Available: 507 / PG available: 101.4 Total CPU Used: 550 or 554 CPU / PG used: 104 But that doesn't fit right? Except 507 x 1.16 = 588.12 Still not enough PG right? Assault Rifle Fitting skill(whatever it's called 13 x .25 = 3.25 104 - 3.25 = 100.75 So all this just barely fit, but is it really that much better than what can be done with a Caldari Assault Suit? Edit: Without CL bonus: Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 290.4 =702.9 EHP Caldari Logistics:337.5 + 363 = 700.5 EHP With CL Bonus: 337.5 + 445.5 = 783 EHP 783(L) - 702.9(A) = 80.1 HP difference. My god, this is game breaking Edit: Now if you used a complex CPU Upgrade, and replaced the Basic Armor repairer with a PG Upgrade, then you would be able to fill your other equipment slots, but I want all assault users to realize that this is far more expensive than your suit would ever get. Possible changes: If you were to get rid of even one low slot then this fit could still be used as a pseudo assault suit, but it would lose access to two equipment slots. If you change it's bonus then it no longer has 80.1 more HP. Just like Pheonix said in this thread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75779&find=unreadYou could even switch the low slot with an equipment slot, it wouldn't be able to take advantage of it without making some sacrifices. A few of things worth keeping in mind with the above numbers, one is that the eHP disparity is going to be less than the damage done by one TAR round (assuming the use of a single complex damage mod and excluding all skills). So it's gaining some additional tank at the cost of additional SP and ISK invested (does the benefit for that additional investment break the risk v reward scaling within other areas of the game?)
Another element is speed, with the Kinetic the Logi build will have a faster sprint but still maintains a lower base movement and a lower total stamina and stamina recovery rate. Clearly which suit is "faster" will be situational but on balance it seems the edge still goes to the Assault suit.
Finally with how tight that fit is the possible requirement of fitting at least one non-nanohive piece of equipment (base repair tool at 15 CPU/2PG is the least expensive possible option) looks to be enough to break the fit and render it invalid. What this says to me is that even without the theoretical requirement a alteration in slots isn't required. If the fit listed above is deemed to be out of line with the risk v reward scaling despite the SP/ISK required to run it then shaving a couple of points off of CPU and/or PG would prevent the fit without any major overhaul.
0.02 ISK Cross
ps ~ It's worth noting that I'm not "defending my fit" here I do run Logi but I don't run Cal or shield tank, I'm simply assessing the data before me.
pps ~ Good job on the thread OP, I'd love to see more testers providing feedback of this caliber.
|
Bettie Boop 2100190003
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 09:03:00 -
[76] - Quote
Thanks for the thread and all the participants in the discussion, QQers excluded. As stated many times before, my personal opinion is that the OP part of the CaLogi suit is the racial bonus. I do like the idea of giving a boost to Assault suits to get people to move back that way instead of using a Logi for an assault role, and giving a de-buff (to 2%/lvl) to the CaLogi suit.
Ive been reading a lot of the threads on OP Logi suits and must say this thread has had the most well informed posters and have stuck to the point. To that end I would like to add that I have been a Logi from the closed beta, and other forums suggesting all Logis need a nerf or only allowing us to have a side arm are bogus. Just because the CaLogi is current bully beating people down on the battle field doesnt mean all Logis should be hit with the same nerf bat.
Thanks again for this thread I will be keeping tabs on it! Hopefully CCP takes note and leaves those of us supporting the team and not pretending to be an assault alone when they bring out the nerf bat. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
955
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:31:00 -
[77] - Quote
Bettie Boop 2100190003 wrote:Thanks for the thread and all the participants in the discussion, QQers excluded. As stated many times before, my personal opinion is that the OP part of the CaLogi suit is the racial bonus. I do like the idea of giving a boost to Assault suits to get people to move back that way instead of using a Logi for an assault role, and giving a de-buff (to 2%/lvl) to the CaLogi suit.
Ive been reading a lot of the threads on OP Logi suits and must say this thread has had the most well informed posters and have stuck to the point. To that end I would like to add that I have been a Logi from the closed beta, and other forums suggesting all Logis need a nerf or only allowing us to have a side arm are bogus. Just because the CaLogi is current bully beating people down on the battle field doesnt mean all Logis should be hit with the same nerf bat.
Thanks again for this thread I will be keeping tabs on it! Hopefully CCP takes note and leaves those of us supporting the team and not pretending to be an assault alone when they bring out the nerf bat. Completely agreed that the best and easiest fix is simply to scale down the Cal Logi racial bonus. It doesn't even need to be changed or removed just have it's per level value reduced. Even a 1% per level reduction shifts the numbers by a non-trivial amount.
Cheers, Cross |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
196
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 16:34:00 -
[78] - Quote
II-X-II wrote:As a Logi here is my suggestion.
Give all Logi suites a -5% damage penalty, we should be focused on support anyway.
Also do not allow any Logi suites to equip damage increasing mods on high slots. That alone may stop anyone from trying to turn the suite into an assault varient.
Logi's that picked the role to run support would be ok with it.
No. Troll post. As a logi this is a terrible concession. This is an FPS. It offers other things as well but all to the same ends - make more players on the other team die. You support when you kill as well. It is... dude, just no. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
410
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:14:00 -
[79] - Quote
1200 views later and still no good reasons for why the entire class needs to be changed and not just the Caldari logi's bonus |
Eskel Bondfree
DUST University Ivy League
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:18:00 -
[80] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Possible changes: If you were to get rid of even one low slot then this fit could still be used as a pseudo assault suit, but it would lose access to two equipment slots.
Just something I'd like to get straight: if I understand correctly, the point you are making is that logis don't need any changes what so ever, except for the caldari racial bonus. Yet at the end of your first post, you suggest to remove at least one low slot from the caldari logi to bring it in line with the assault. So what do you actually want, touch the logi or not?
|
|
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
411
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:25:00 -
[81] - Quote
Eskel Bondfree wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Possible changes: If you were to get rid of even one low slot then this fit could still be used as a pseudo assault suit, but it would lose access to two equipment slots.
Just something I'd like to get straight: if I understand correctly, the point you are making is that logis don't need any changes what so ever, except for the caldari racial bonus. Yet at the end of your first post, you suggest to remove at least one low slot from the caldari logi to bring it in line with the assault. So what do you actually want, touch the logi or not? I'm not completely sure that all Logis are perfectly fine actually, but most people complain about the Caldari suit, so that's what I'm mostly addressing. Could the other Logis use some adjustments? Possibly, but I have yet to hear a good case for it.
However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is.
The Gallente logi gets 3:5:4 slots, don't see why the Caldari logi can't get 5:3:4 slots as well.
I'm also not sure about the assault suits fitting possibilities, so that would need to get looked at as well. They lost most of the CPU reduction skills and gained no extra CPU this build. |
Eskel Bondfree
DUST University Ivy League
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:01:00 -
[82] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is.
You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat.
Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at:
Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG
We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to:
Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG
Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are:
Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows.
And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at:
Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows.
That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
413
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:20:00 -
[83] - Quote
A'hhh, yes, thanks for those numbers
Well, the one idea I really want to go through would be the +2% damage for assaults, that would equal a permanent complex damage mod, the worth of which is 68 PU and 8PG
I also see no harm in adding a bit more PG and CPU to assault/scout/ and possibly heavies suits. Almost all of the skills that reduced fitting costs have been taken away. Before you could reduce a light weapons CPU fitting cost by 40%, now you can only reduce it by 15% and the PG requirements by 25%. Since all other suits had less CPU and PG to begin with, it hits them harder than it hit logis, even though they also added the +5% from core skills, which again benefits logis the most.
Of course we could also go the other way and just shave some points from a logis PG and CPU. Just 15 CPU and 3 PG seems like it would go a long way into making it harder for logis to turn into assault fits (while retaining their equipment)
Though I'd prefer giving some more CPU and PG to other suits.
Edit: And can someone fix the Amarr suit? Why does it have less PG than the assault suit in the first place? Just give it 75 PG so it can actually use it's equipment and the side arm |
Eskel Bondfree
DUST University Ivy League
99
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:34:00 -
[84] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Before you could reduce a light weapons CPU fitting cost by 40%, now you can only reduce it by 15% and the PG requirements by 25%. Since all other suits had less CPU and PG to begin with, it hits them harder than it hit logis.
That's a good point. Personally, I'd like to see CCP work more with various fitting boni (or even penalties) tied to the different suits. For example, a fitting bonus to weapons for assault and heavy, bonus to equipment and e-war modules to logis, something along those lines. It would essentially narrow down the spectrum of possible fittings and move it towards the intended role of each suit, without locking anyone out of the other roles completely or making all fittings less effective across the board.
|
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:18:00 -
[85] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION.........................
The numbers in this thread are wrong for the shields on the Caldari logi suit w/max shields EX are 679 !! So this guy starts a thread with wrong math and stats no one comments on this. you wanna nerf a class or a suit or a racial bonus? which one is it? . So you want a logi to pick u up repair you drop nanohives and die trying to do all of this and not be able to shoot or defend himself in close quarters because he has no sidearm. Really, nerf the guy keeping you ammoed up and alive and if you die the last man standing should pick you up. How can he do all this if his suit isn't built for it..
Clowns...!! Half of you don't even know what a logi really does for you. Its more that the above and those that know. know.
END TRANSMISSION....................... |
LittleCuteBunny
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:21:00 -
[86] - Quote
nerf them all to have less H-Power and L-Power slots than any assault suit |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
414
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:25:00 -
[87] - Quote
ImMortal SoLDieR X wrote: The numbers in this thread are wrong for the shields on the Caldari logi suit w/max shields EX are 679
And what math did you use? Oh, and EHP includes armor genius, not just shields.
LittleCuteBunny wrote:nerf them all to have less H-Power and L-Power slots than any assault suit Right... |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
414
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:38:00 -
[88] - Quote
I'll assume you did 66 x 1.10(shield enhancers bonus) x 1.25(Cal logi bonus) x 5
Which is what I thought it was, but Cat Merc insisted it that the two bonuses are additive and not multiplicative.
Using that formula would give you 453.75 extender shields plus base shields would be 678.75, which would get rounded up to 679.
Can you or anyone confirm if it's additive or multiplicative?
|
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
415
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:51:00 -
[89] - Quote
The same goes for the CPU and PG skills, that would change a lot. I currently don't have the SP to test them. |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 20:51:00 -
[90] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION................
Why would I put 4 complex lol count em 4 complex armor plates in my logi suit its already slower than an assault suit. there are so many more modules to use than Armor plates lol. So I tank out the suit to be used like a heavy I might as well have went heavy.. if you don't understand the logi and his versatility you really shouldn't comment on this subject. The person that armor tanks like this isn't really utilizing his/her suit in a way to benefit his/her team.. So why would I comment on the armor plating... His post starts off wrong is all I am saying.
END TRANSMISSION................ |
|
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
415
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:03:00 -
[91] - Quote
Are the skills additive or multiplicative? It's a simple question bro. |
Belzeebub Santana
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
476
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:11:00 -
[92] - Quote
Glad you went back and edited your post stating that caLogi had only 3 lows it makes a significant difference. Like you posted above fitting CPU or PG enhancements makes the suit a lot more flexible. The point you make about the highs being equal is about right because of the extra HP the assault gets but this is the only suit with 9 mod slots and makes it by far the most versatile class. (I accept your apology)
With regards to armor stacking not being effective thus making the gaLogi not OP is yet to be seen. CCP has stated that different types of armor is coming out. There will be one that negates the movement penalty and another that has a repper on it. Will the armor plate that repairs itself repair all the armor on the suit or just the amount that it protects?
The fact that the gaLogi has one more equip slot and one less mod slot than the caLogi might mean that it won't go through the same OP hate as its counterpart but we won't know until they give us the armor plates to play with.
As far as the other Logi suits haven't done enough scrutiny over them to find potential flaws. |
Belzeebub Santana
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
476
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:12:00 -
[93] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Are the skills additive or multiplicative? It's a simple question bro.
Ya wish dev could confirm which it is, have seen people use both and not sure what is correct. |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:21:00 -
[94] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION..................
679 !!!!! you tell me if its add or mult 679 max skills and mods is all you get !!!!!! 679, 679, 679.. OMG THE SKY IS FALLING!!! YOU GUYS SEEM PRETTY SMART. 679 IS ALL YOU GET !!
END TRANSMISSION................ .. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
417
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:27:00 -
[95] - Quote
ImMortal SoLDieR X wrote:START TRANSMISSION.................. 679 !!!!! you tell me if its add or mult 679 max skills and mods is all you get !!!!!! 679, 679, 679.. OMG THE SKY IS FALLING!!! YOU GUYS SEEM PRETTY SMART. 679 IS ALL YOU GET !! END TRANSMISSION................ ..
|
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
417
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:30:00 -
[96] - Quote
Belzeebub Santana wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Are the skills additive or multiplicative? It's a simple question bro. Ya wish dev could confirm which it is, have seen people use both and not sure what is correct. Someone here's gotta know... I imagine my friend above us is a Caldari logi which is why he's so sure of himself, though it would be nice if he would just say it instead of screwing around |
Lone Badger
Badger Consulting LLC
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:43:00 -
[97] - Quote
OK I figured I would give my 2 isk since everyone else is.
**The logis traded their sidearm for more equipment slots not more equipment slots AND high/low slots**
Remove a low slot from the Min Logi Remove a high slot from the Gal Logi Remove a high OR a low slot from the Cal Logi
some minor tweaking to the racial suit bonuses and I would be happy and would think that all is right in the world of logis, scouts, and assaults....................vehicles and heavies on the other hand.............
|
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
419
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:47:00 -
[98] - Quote
Lone Badger wrote:OK I figured I would give my 2 isk since everyone else is.
**The logis traded their sidearm for more equipment slots not more equipment slots AND high/low slots**
Remove a low slot from the Min Logi Remove a high slot from the Gal Logi Remove a high OR a low slot from the Cal Logi
some minor tweaking to the racial suit bonuses and I would be happy and would think that all is right in the world of logis, scouts, and assaults....................vehicles and heavies on the other hand.............
While I have suggested similar things in other threads, I feel their slot layouts should only be changed if all else fails to balnce them out.
That said, I feel the need to point out that their higher slot count comes from their lower base stats, not the loss of their sidearm. |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:50:00 -
[99] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION...............
I guess you guys didn't notice in all other builds the logi had 12 slots. hmmmph. Take away a slot from all classes then. ooooohhhh no one likes that idea huh?
END TRANSMISSION................... |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
419
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:55:00 -
[100] - Quote
They were also a bit slower and had less HP, not to mention assaults had 2 equip slots as did scouts? |
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ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:00:00 -
[101] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION...................
They are still slow read the stats you posted lol for this caldari logi. You do know you posted the stats ? oh yeah others did have 1 more eq slot to do the logis job. its not needed now we have logis that can do the job... Id say your beat for rap... if your logi cant fight to save your behind hes usless. Ive seen assault guys duvolle out with no sidearm and no grenades why cant the logi do the same if he wants to bang out. So killing is only for assault guys lol muhahahahahaha your a funny guy. Tell me how much shield you get in your suit when maxed out !!!
END TRANSMISSION....................... |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
420
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:07:00 -
[102] - Quote
Slower, as in 4.5, the speed of the current Amarr Logi, although there was a speed variant which was slightly different that I don't remember, but yeah, you keep ignoring that stuff.
Not to mention the Type-II Assault was even faster |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:25:00 -
[103] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION.......................
He is beat for rap like I said!!!! Its your post and you started like the stats were correct. Now that someone has addressed it you don't wanna talk and im an id.............. lol your funny but I did ask you a question how much shields is in your suit when maxed out no dmg mods all shields...? I bet you use the tac ar as well all versions... 4.7 is not much faster than 4.5 lol your a funny guy when you get exposed lol. We all now know you don't know anything about what your talking about. Im done here. .This post is toast.
END TRANSMISSION.......................... |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
421
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:36:00 -
[104] - Quote
I asked you to clarify, you failed to do so and went off tangent, what tangent? I don't know, I think you're on drugs. |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:05:00 -
[105] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION.....................
Now im on drugs for helping you ? looooooool 679 max shields with max skills for the caldari logi you have the answer. You clearly took the time to post all this so Ive now given you the answer so you could correct this post and Im on drugs?. hahahahahaha
Clearly this guy is having a nervous breakdown. OMG Peggy is not even hot !!!!!!!!! CRASH! (Mayhem) How more clear could I be?
TRANSMISSION......................... |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
422
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:09:00 -
[106] - Quote
Is that from the fitting screen? |
King Kobrah
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
273
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:12:00 -
[107] - Quote
nerfs to logi mean literally nothing if assault specialization suits don't get buffed. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
422
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:13:00 -
[108] - Quote
King Kobrah wrote:nerfs to logi mean literally nothing if assault specialization suits don't get buffed. You must have missed the +2% dmg per level I suggested. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
969
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:22:00 -
[109] - Quote
Eskel Bondfree wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is.
You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). A few notes here (some of them questions)
- Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal?
- What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed?
- How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots?
- What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault?
- How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU,
3,615 ISK
- How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit.
- Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod.
- Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value.
Looking forward to seeing your response to each of these items.
Cheers, Cross
|
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
423
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:31:00 -
[110] - Quote
Caldari Logibro Shield Extender values updated thanks to ImMortal SoLDieR X
CPU and PG of Caldari Logi with max passives also updated to refelect 1.3125, instead of 1.30
Cat Merc is a deceitful cat!
Edit: Stupid last bullet doesn't show up unless there's text under it. |
|
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
969
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:32:00 -
[111] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:The same goes for the CPU and PG skills, that would change a lot. I currently don't have the SP to test them. I don't have everything in front of me but with Level 5 in both Dropsuit Core Upgrades & Dropsuit Engineering my Amarr Logi suit has 87 PG up from the base suit value of 66 (no alteration from Mods, just skills). |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
423
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:38:00 -
[112] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:The same goes for the CPU and PG skills, that would change a lot. I currently don't have the SP to test them. I don't have everything in front of me but with Level 5 in both Dropsuit Core Upgrades & Dropsuit Engineering my Amarr Logi suit has 87 PG up from the base suit value of 66 (no alteration from Mods, just skills). 66 x 1.3125 = 86.625
Yup, it seems they get rounded up as well |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
970
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:42:00 -
[113] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Cross Atu wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:The same goes for the CPU and PG skills, that would change a lot. I currently don't have the SP to test them. I don't have everything in front of me but with Level 5 in both Dropsuit Core Upgrades & Dropsuit Engineering my Amarr Logi suit has 87 PG up from the base suit value of 66 (no alteration from Mods, just skills). 66 x 1.3125 = 86.625 Yup, it seems they get rounded up as well Glad to contribute, numbers are slippery sometimes. Have you updated the OP with current numbers?
Thanks again for putting this all together. Cross |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
424
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:45:00 -
[114] - Quote
Yeee |
Solarisjock
One-Armed Bandits Heretic Initiative
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 06:09:00 -
[115] - Quote
simplest solution i see would be a 25-50% increase to fitting cost of weapons on a logi suit. this would make it much harder to fit. it would not be totaly gimped in a combat role, as a proto SMG or other secondary (maybe a shotty? not sure on the PG?CPU of those top of my head) but would prevent them from using the proto/advanced light weapons with out the sacrifice of EHP.
in addition to that i would not see a simliar fitting bonus to support items, say 15-30% off the top (additive to skills) to things like nanohives/needles/uplinks/reppers etc. This would let the logi keep the epic tank, not be totally defenseless, and carry the needed gear to play its intended role the best. Biggest issue i see is the effect it would have on Amarr logi as they can fit 2 weapons.
Those two changes, copmbined with the 2% per level bonus to Assault suits i think would fix most of the issues with out the EPIC NERF HAMMER OF DOOM onto anyone role/class.
Credit of this idea goes to a corp mate, i just fleshed it out a little and posted it. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
973
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 06:15:00 -
[116] - Quote
Solarisjock wrote:simplest solution i see would be a 25-50% increase to fitting cost of weapons on a logi suit. this would make it much harder to fit. it would not be totaly gimped in a combat role, as a proto SMG or other secondary (maybe a shotty? not sure on the PG?CPU of those top of my head) but would prevent them from using the proto/advanced light weapons with out the sacrifice of EHP.
in addition to that i would not see a simliar fitting bonus to support items, say 15-30% off the top (additive to skills) to things like nanohives/needles/uplinks/reppers etc. This would let the logi keep the epic tank, not be totally defenseless, and carry the needed gear to play its intended role the best. Biggest issue i see is the effect it would have on Amarr logi as they can fit 2 weapons.
Those two changes, copmbined with the 2% per level bonus to Assault suits i think would fix most of the issues with out the EPIC NERF HAMMER OF DOOM onto anyone role/class.
Credit of this idea goes to a corp mate, i just fleshed it out a little and posted it. Please respond to post #107, while it wasn't written as a reply to this I think the questions therein should be answered for this idea as well. |
RevoL Frog
The Generals EoN.
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 07:47:00 -
[117] - Quote
Let us also not forget that the hit boxes on the Logi Suits are bigger than the hit boxes on the Assault Suits. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
168
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 07:57:00 -
[118] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Eskel Bondfree wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is.
You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). A few notes here (some of them questions)
- Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal?
- What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed?
- How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots?
- What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault?
- How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU,
3,615 ISK
- How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit.
- Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod.
- Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value.
Looking forward to seeing your response to each of these items. Cheers, Cross EDIT: here's CCP Remnant on the subject, of suit roles.
I assume you were aware that he can't actually legitimately complete his little experiment, because the logi can't stack 5 shield extenders to match the Assault AND use a Shield Recharger module. None of the biotics will actually fix the base movement speed anyhow. Of course, you might possibly need to add Regulators to approximate a delay change. I'd actually be fine with assaults having the better delay stats across the board, but I assume that's not nerf-batty enough for detractors.
|
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
895
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 07:59:00 -
[119] - Quote
A few more hours and this Yellow Devil problem will be solved. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
430
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:00:00 -
[120] - Quote
RevoL Frog wrote:Let us also not forget that the hit boxes on the Logi Suits are bigger than the hit boxes Is that even true, was that ever true? They have the same models, why would they have bigger hit boxes?
Quote:Edit* You also forgot to point out the current racial bonus for the Caldari Assault suit; The shields regenerate fatser, which makes it more suitable for frontline combat than the slower Logi. Logis have a better delay... so yeah...
Quote:Personally, I believe the Caldari Logi suit is perfectly fine. Interesting... |
|
RevoL Frog
The Generals EoN.
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:04:00 -
[121] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:RevoL Frog wrote:Let us also not forget that the hit boxes on the Logi Suits are bigger than the hit boxes Is that even true, was that ever true? They have the same models, why would they have bigger hit boxes? Quote:Edit* You also forgot to point out the current racial bonus for the Caldari Assault suit; The shields regenerate fatser, which makes it more suitable for frontline combat than the slower Logi. Logis have a better delay... so yeah... Quote:Personally, I believe the Caldari Logi suit is perfectly fine. Interesting...
Yep
Heavy>Logi>Assault>Scout. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
430
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:06:00 -
[122] - Quote
So the supmodel bodied female models have the same hit boxes as the male models, but logis have a bigger frame even though they have the exact same model... Has anyone ever proven that or gotten it confirmed? I know people say it all the time, but was it ever confirmed?
Pretty sure that their "frame" sizes refer to their hit-boxes, in which case logis and assaults both have a medium hit box. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:24:00 -
[123] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:RevoL Frog wrote:Let us also not forget that the hit boxes on the Logi Suits are bigger than the hit boxes Is that even true, was that ever true? They have the same models, why would they have bigger hit boxes? Quote:Edit* You also forgot to point out the current racial bonus for the Caldari Assault suit; The shields regenerate fatser, which makes it more suitable for frontline combat than the slower Logi. Logis have a better delay... so yeah... Quote:Personally, I believe the Caldari Logi suit is perfectly fine. Interesting...
The delay difference is small (1 second, normally), whereas an assault with his class recharge bonus has recharge 56% higher per second without any modules. The difference in delay gets blown out of the water when recharge triggers.
So, in the course of a few second period Shields lower--Logi-recharge begins----Logi has regained 20hp-----Logi has regained 40hp-----------Now 60hp regained
Shields lower--wait 1 second more------Assault recharge begins----Assault has regained 31.25 hp--Now 62.5 hp regained
For the high high price of.... 1 second, the Assault recharge outstrips the Logi by leaps and bounds, literally in 2-ticks. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
431
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:29:00 -
[124] - Quote
A'hhh, but the depleted delay is 2 seconds, so we get a 40HP head start as well as our armor healing in the meantime. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:31:00 -
[125] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:A'hhh, but the depleted delay is 2 seconds, so we get a 40HP head start as well as our armor healing in the meantime.
Perhaps swapping the delays would be an easy balance fix then? You could do that without touching anything else. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
431
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:34:00 -
[126] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:A'hhh, but the depleted delay is 2 seconds, so we get a 40HP head start as well as our armor healing in the meantime. Perhaps swapping the delays would be an easy balance fix then? You could do that without touching anything else. That's not how it works around these parts, it's the nerf sledgehammer... or nothing. Seriously, the QQ won't stop until something big happens and changing delays I fear is not big enough. |
Yay Adski
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
235
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:54:00 -
[127] - Quote
Instead of nerfing one thing, why not buff others? This is why the game has gone to ****, too many people crying for nerfs dulling it down. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
174
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:56:00 -
[128] - Quote
Yay Adski wrote:Instead of nerfing one thing, why not buff others? This is why the game has gone to ****, too many people crying for nerfs dulling it down.
Considering this game will have PvE content as well, I think people should be aware of what will happen if they make everything suck by that point. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
905
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 09:12:00 -
[129] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Yay Adski wrote:Instead of nerfing one thing, why not buff others? This is why the game has gone to ****, too many people crying for nerfs dulling it down. Considering this game will have PvE content as well, I think people should be aware of what will happen if they make everything suck by that point. In a few hours, we're going to have a massive influx a new players that haven't learned the lessons we've never learned until now. They'll QQ in caps lock about the heavy they couldn't kill with their MLT AR inside the heavy's optimal range, they'll QQ about tanks, and snipers, and scramblers, and just about anything else because this game doesn't spoon feed them gratification with a cone shaped rifle spread and the hitbox the size of a barn. It's going to be our job as the veterans to put these newberries in their place and teach them the ins and outs of Dust 514, because quite frankly, CCP is busier making sure a female scout's gams look good under dynamic lighting than making a proper tutorial. |
Purona
Militaires Sans Jeux
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:00:00 -
[130] - Quote
i swear if CCP even touch logis in a nerfing way im out of here you give us
lower shields lower armor lower movement speed lover stamina lover stamina regen lower precision no side arm lower shield recharge rate
and since we can stack one stat to become better at one area assaults want to nerf us get real a nerf to logis would just show me that CCP have no idea what they are doing
an assaults job is to take targets with speed strength and durability they can easily change what they are doing at any moment get into a fight run from the fight
engage in medium to short range battles they have adaptability to many situations due to there higher base stats
logistics are specifically created to focus on one area we cant just add one module and receive a major boost we have to use 2 modules to even surpass an assault suit in one stat
all these asaults trying to nerf logistics class are only looking at module allocation you never once see an assault bring up any other stat beyond modules |
|
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
975
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:25:00 -
[131] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Eskel Bondfree wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is.
You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). A few notes here (some of them questions)
- Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal?
- What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed?
- How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots?
- What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault?
- How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU,
3,615 ISK
- How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit.
- Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod.
- Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value.
Looking forward to seeing your response to each of these items. Cheers, Cross EDIT: here's CCP Remnant on the subject, of suit roles. I assume you were aware that he can't actually legitimately complete his little experiment, because the logi can't stack 5 shield extenders to match the Assault AND use a Shield Recharger module. None of the biotics will actually fix the base movement speed anyhow. Of course, you might possibly need to add Regulators to approximate a delay change. I'd actually be fine with assaults having the better delay stats across the board, but I assume that's not nerf-batty enough for detractors. Yep, I always like to ask rather than state when I can just in case someone sees something I haven't but that's pretty much the point if you plug in mods to bring the stats of the Logi in line with the base stats of the Assault and then compare what's left the differences (such as they are) seem negligible. I'd still be interested to see someone post fits they think break this assessment but without using the AR I haven't encountered an example yet. If that remains the case then it's pretty much a given that it's not the dropsuit in question that's the issue. (Two notes; 1. The Cal Logi could likely use a light down scale of it's racial bonus and the Amarr a light to very light buff of it's stats to bring the 4 racial logi types in line with each other. 2. The balance issue identified by objections to "slayer logi' is not a result of one factor and as such needs a nuanced resolution not swinging the nerf hammer. If some Mercs are dead set on QQing until the nerf hammer comes out then all I have to say is the AR is part of the current problem and they should keep that in mind when QQing for nerfs.) |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
180
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:35:00 -
[132] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Yep, I always like to ask rather than state when I can just in case someone sees something I haven't but that's pretty much the point if you plug in mods to bring the stats of the Logi in line with the base stats of the Assault and then compare what's left the differences (such as they are) seem negligible. I'd still be interested to see someone post fits they think break this assessment but without using the AR I haven't encountered an example yet. If that remains the case then it's pretty much a given that it's not the dropsuit in question that's the issue. (Two notes; 1. The Cal Logi could likely use a light down scale of it's racial bonus and the Amarr a light to very light buff of it's stats to bring the 4 racial logi types in line with each other. 2. The balance issue identified by objections to "slayer logi' is not a result of one factor and as such needs a nuanced resolution not swinging the nerf hammer. If some Mercs are dead set on QQing until the nerf hammer comes out then all I have to say is the AR is part of the current problem and they should keep that in mind when QQing for nerfs.)
The delay-swap would be a pretty big fix. Dropping the shield buff to 3% (15% at max then) would probably be fine too. The TAR are a larger issue than the Caldari Logi imho at the moment.
The Amarr Logi need (in my opinion) another low slot at Proto (they have the same number of module slots as their assault), and they need PG that's higher than their assault as well.
I'd also be fine with Caldari keeping the full shield bonus, and retooling the assault suits in general (as they're one-note and undistinguished from the basic frames right now). Alongside that, I think the Gall logi bonus could be more useful - as with maxed passives a PG/CPU bonus is a bit crap.
The assault recharge passive overall is very strong. Assaults already have better recharge, so it gives them a big lead (over logis anyway). However, I could see something like the hybrid reload or hybrid fitting being.... uh... underwhelming. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
436
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:23:00 -
[133] - Quote
Purona wrote: all these asaults trying to nerf logistics class are only looking at module allocation you never once see an assault bring up any other stat beyond modules
While I agree with you, that bonus is still too good.
Oh, and Logi <------ |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
436
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:25:00 -
[134] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote: If some Mercs are dead set on QQing until the nerf hammer comes out then all I have to say is the AR is part of the current problem and they should keep that in mind when QQing for nerfs.) That'll be the day...
|
Purona
Militaires Sans Jeux
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:52:00 -
[135] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Purona wrote: all these asaults trying to nerf logistics class are only looking at module allocation you never once see an assault bring up any other stat beyond modules
While I agree with you, that bonus is still too good. Oh, and Logi <------ explain to me why its TOO GOOD |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
436
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:54:00 -
[136] - Quote
There's an entire front page dedicated to that, if that doesn't satisfy you then there's nothing else I can do here. |
Eskel Bondfree
DUST University Ivy League
101
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:43:00 -
[137] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:A few notes here (some of them questions)
- Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal?
- What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed?
- How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots?
- What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault?
- How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU,
3,615 ISK
- How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit.
- Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod.
- Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value.
Hm, not sure if you were really asking for answers to your questions, but I'll try to address your points in case you are interested anyway.
Skill points: the required SP to fit either a logi or assault suit are of course equal, because both suit skills have the same multiplier. The rest is up to the player, everything you can slap onto a logi can be slapped onto the assault. Remember I'm not talking about a logi player who skilled into repair tools or something, I'm talking about someone who is using the logi for his assault build.
ISK: I have no idea what the isk difference would be. But frankly, I don't think it matters, because ultimately, isk is not a factor in balancing suits or modules. I believe that sadly, eventually isk will simply become a virtually unlimited resource for big corps and alliances, just like it is the case in Eve Online.
Biotics and scanner: I don't see the point in fitting biotics or scanner modules to offset logi base stats. The scan precision of the logi is actually better than that of an assault (lower is better). And obviously walking speed remains unaffected by modules, it's one of the logi's significant disadvantages.
Racial assault bonus: you have a good point in that the shield regeneration bonus is actually a good trade in for the built in armor repair (from an assaults perspective). So I'll remove the repper from the assault fit. Changing my numbers to take into account that fitting boni are multiplicative, we should arrive at a remaining fitting capacity of:
Assault: 101 CPU/25 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 165 CPU/37 PG and 4 lows. (Both having roughly equal EHP, with the logi gaining a small advantage due to the higher shield portion of his EHP)
The logi has still more to work with, while trading lower shield regeneration for its armor repair and giving up the side arm and 6% strafe speed (I still call it a tad, because not everyones play style evolves around crazy strafe patterns). Honestly, I still think that, in this particular case, the logi gains an edge over the assault that it shouldn't have being the 'logistics' role.
Of course you are completely right that the problem might not even exist if it wasn't for the generic all around weapon, aka assault rifle (and since today, scrambler rifle). But as a matter of fact, the AR exists and I don't see it going away ever. Though I wouldn't miss it much. In fact, I believe the game would become a lot more dynamic and interesting, and less generic in the sense of 'military in space'.
One last note, I retract what I said about the Gallente and Logi, because they have both one high slot less in exchange for their equipment slot. And as you pointed out, the built in rep of the Minmatar assault complicates things even further.
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
208
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Posted - 2013.05.15 17:35:00 -
[138] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Yay Adski wrote:Instead of nerfing one thing, why not buff others? This is why the game has gone to ****, too many people crying for nerfs dulling it down. Considering this game will have PvE content as well, I think people should be aware of what will happen if they make everything suck by that point. In a few hours, we're going to have a massive influx a new players that haven't learned the lessons we've never learned until now. They'll QQ in caps lock about the heavy they couldn't kill with their MLT AR inside the heavy's optimal range, they'll QQ about tanks, and snipers, and scramblers, and just about anything else because this game doesn't spoon feed them gratification with a cone shaped rifle spread and the hitbox the size of a barn. It's going to be our job as the veterans to put these newberries in their place and teach them the ins and outs of Dust 514, because quite frankly, CCP is busier making sure a female scout's gams look good under dynamic lighting than making a proper tutorial.
But I wholly appreciate those gams and fully support the work to make them even better... is there something else they should be doing? (on top of all the other stuff that is already happening) I think not. =p |
CommanderBolt
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
18
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Posted - 2013.05.17 06:43:00 -
[139] - Quote
Logi is Underpowered, BUFF logi today!
Nerf weapons now! Rainbows and love for all. <3 |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
209
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Posted - 2013.05.17 17:17:00 -
[140] - Quote
Funny that after the Scrambler Rifle came out the thread died as an option came out that was very effective against these Caldari Logissaults.
However... Logis are good as is (except Amarr -broken as hell). Buff the Assaults in a way that matters. |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1059
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Posted - 2013.06.01 19:20:00 -
[141] - Quote
@Eskel Bondfree Re: Post #135
Yes I'm actually asking, even if I think I know the answers to things I still like to get additional input and I want to say upfront thanks for responding. Now on to the line by line
Skill Points The SP to run the specific suit is equal this is true, the SP to run a fully proto fit most certainly is not equal. If one assumes a logi suit being used for a pure slayer build then that does bring down the SP cost but when you include all the mods required to normalize the logi suit base stats with those naturally built into the assault. For a true comparison this must be included as the assumptive dismissal of relevant suit factors is poor practice. Everyone has unique play styles (to some degree) and these stats are used as part of balance by CCP, if any stat is truly meaningless then it falls on CCP to improve the mechanics of that stat to make it functional and relevant not upon the player base to simply ignore it outright.
Biotics and scanner See above, when making direct comparisons stat normalization matters.
Quote: The logi has still more to work with, while trading lower shield regeneration for its armor repair and giving up the side arm and 6% strafe speed (I still call it a tad, because not everyone's play style evolves around crazy strafe patterns).
I actually agree here but again I don't believe this can be trivialized. Not all play styles use it, in the same way not all play styles fail to use it. That aspect cuts both ways and as such remains relevant because the question isn't "is the logi suit better for slayer play for certain specific people/play styles". In a similar vein the sidearm is a non-trivial sacrifice, some slayers I know don't use their sidearms but more of them most certainly do. Even beyond that an assault suit can be used for light weapon based AV by fitting the correct light weapon and the user will retain all other utility of that suit, however a logi suit used in the same way becomes completely vulnerable to infantry as it possesses no sidearm to fall back upon. When considering the value of having a suit unlocked over focusing on one specific situation (even if that situation is primary) doesn't really tell the whole story and as such is flawed.
ISK Here I think is where we differ most greatly. The price of fits, mods etc must be taken into account as it is most certainly part of the balancing paradigm. Assuming the lack of meaning for ISK also assumes unlimited use of pure proto which CCP has expressly stated they do not want. Further even if one were to presume that the ISK stagnation you describe is coming that to me is the a mechanical flaw in it's own right and really should be balanced around, rather it should be directly addressed. The whole game becomes quite broken if we eliminate all economic considerations from the playing field, all clones and clone packs from PC become free, dropping 300 proto tanks into a match and losing them doesn't matter. A single Merc burning 50 pure proto fits ceases to have any "bite" beyond e-peening for stats. New Eden is driven by economics, and while I'm not saying the system or situation is perfect it is there and it's not something that can simply be disregarded out of hand.
The AR I agree it's not likely to go anywhere and while I don't use it much I'm not even suggesting that it should be removed. However the point remains that if the AR is the key to the problem then it's not the logi suit which is broken. Nerfing other game aspects to balance around something else causing problems is bad practice. If the swarm launcher has bad pathing you don't nerf the eHP of vehicles, you fix the pathing on the swarm launcher.
Conclusion Now that I've gotten done quibbling over details I wanted to thank you for a clear and well thought out post. I'm sorry my reply has been late in coming and I further want to reiterate that I do think the Cal Logi needs a but of a tone down as compared to the other Logi suits, but I'm of the mind that adjusting the racial bonus would be enough. The Assault suits also have, in some cases, underwhelming racial buffs and that needs looked at as well. Those changes may not be enough to fully fine tune balance but in my view they're enough to warrant their own change and see where things stand after (sweeping changes tend to be poor balance practice in my experience).
Cheers, Cross
ps ~ CCP has confirmed more than one bug in the current hit detection protocols as well as an occlusion bug which causes splash/explosion damage to only apply sporadically. In addition there is a but which causes Mass Driver rounds and grenades to at times simply not detonate. There are also some bugs in the application of damage from OBs. All of these are relevant to the battlefield and to the hp balance between shields and armor as well as the over all meta of gear on the battlefield. We may see shield tanking take a hit game wide when these bugs are resolved. I'd also like to note that I say this as an armor tanker so I'm not trying to "protect my build" or some such. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic ROFL BROS
1792
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Posted - 2013.06.06 20:54:00 -
[142] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:Funny that after the Scrambler Rifle came out the thread died as an option came out that was very effective against these Caldari Logissaults. That's cause people stopped bitching, this might just need a bump though... |
Eskel Bondfree
DUST University Ivy League
103
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 16:03:00 -
[143] - Quote
Thanks for your detailed response, it seems we mostly of agree on the Caldari logi. Please note that I never attempted to truly 'normalize' the logi and assault suit, the point of suit specializations is that they are different, after all. I merely tried to bring both on the same level in terms of HP and fire power (because I think these matter the most in an FPS) to compare their fitting abilities, while their respective pros/cons still apply (as you said, it's a matter of personal play style how big their impact really is).
I think most things that matter have been said in this thread already, but before I let it sink back to the bottom of the forum, I want to add:
The side arm slot needs to matter more! We already agreed that withouth the AR, logis are bad assaults. But the AR is the only thing you need 90% of the time in this game. CCP should make the sidearm more vital outside of sniper and AV fittings, that would actually buff the assault suits in general and also the Amarr proto logi (which seems very underwhelming at the moment). On the same note, I'd lilke to see the equipment slot matter more, as well. Every assault slaps on a nano hive, because it's the only thing really useful for a combat role. This takes away the resupply role from logis way too often. So healing and reviving is the only thing left for dedicated logis, there should be more (looking forward to shield bubbles and ewar equipment).
You might have misunderstood me on the topic of isk. I didn't imply isk is meaningless, it's not. And I do hope isk remains an important factor even for large player alliances. What I'm saying is that two pieces of equipment, that are on the same performance level and are used in a similar way, must be balanced by their performance alone, not by their price relative to each other. Likewise, the fact that a player can obtain higher performance over their opponent through higher isk cost is only acceptable as long as the opponent has the option of increasing their performance by spending more isk as well. If my proto assault is operating at peak performance (because all slosts are filled and all CPU/PG is used up), there should be no other fitting that can reach an even higher combat performance by spending more isk than me (it would be fine if the fitting had a higher flexibility through extra equipment, but it should not exceed the core performance of any other proto suit withouth a significant disadvantage). |
Bob Teller
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
3
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Posted - 2013.06.12 00:42:00 -
[144] - Quote
Eskel Bondfree wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is.
You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). Actually they don't, because both have one low slot less in exchange for the 4th equipment slot.
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Eskel Bondfree
DUST University Ivy League
103
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 16:34:00 -
[145] - Quote
Bob Teller wrote:And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at:
Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. If you do that then you have to take into acount the +25% shield regeneration bonus for assault(cost 60cpu) Cross Atu already brought that up. Please see my previous post (#135) on the matter. |
GVGISDEAD
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2013.06.12 16:47:00 -
[146] - Quote
If caldari logi is nerfed then the rest of the logistics suits must be nerfed because the WHOLE assault class is a subpar if not used correctly...
The assault bonus of shield regen is pretty good if used along with a prototype complex shield regen, complex shield extenders and complex shield regulators. The movement speed just reinforces the idea that the Assault class should be used to enter and exit the fights constantly and not an actual iTank frontliner... the capability to regen their shield fast is what makes it good but people want to tank like heavies with them and let us not forget the overpowered flaylock that tears enemies in a blink.
If anything the assault class needs an increase in cpu and pg since one of the issues is not being able to fit all the good stuff that would make it a great dropsuit without using a lower tier weapon |
NAV HIV
The Generals EoN.
229
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Posted - 2013.06.12 16:54:00 -
[147] - Quote
GVGISDEAD wrote:If caldari logi is nerfed then the rest of the logistics suits must be nerfed because the WHOLE assault class is a subpar if not used correctly...
The assault bonus of shield regen is pretty good if used along with a prototype complex shield regen, complex shield extenders and complex shield regulators. The movement speed just reinforces the idea that the Assault class should be used to enter and exit the fights constantly and not an actual iTank frontliner... the capability to regen their shield fast is what makes it good but people want to tank like heavies with them and let us not forget the overpowered flaylock that tears enemies in a blink.
If anything the assault class needs an increase in cpu and pg since one of the issues is not being able to fit all the good stuff that would make it a great dropsuit without using a lower tier weapon
Yup right now the Caldari assault has to choose between gank or tank. Needs a buff to CPU and PG. The caldari Logi how ever should be balanced out. Not nerf, just tweak it a bit to make it serve its purpose |
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