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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.05.12 17:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:S recovery:15/s----------------------12/s
EHP:---------412.5--------------------337.5(75 HP difference) (This was with passives included)
So what is a logistics suit? From it's stats, it's a medium suit that's traded in some of it's base speed, health, and stamina for a higher slot count, while also switching it's side arm for equipment so that it can support it's team instead of slaying(Amarr logi excluded).
So is losing the side arm worth the extra equipment? First, let me ask you something. What side arm do most laser users use? A SMG? Bingo. Why? Because their laser is weak in CQC and does less damage to armor, while the SMG is the opposite of that. So what does a siderm do? It allows the player to overcome the inherent weakness of their main weapon, and gives them an emergency weapon incase they run out of ammo. Logis on the other hand exchange that combat adaptability in order to support their teamates. A side arm deals damage to the enemies, a repair tool heals your teammates. A side arm can kill your enemies, a nanite injector can revive your teammates. A siderm gives you more ammo, a nano-hive gives your whole team more ammo.
All in all I'd say the two are pretty well balanced.
Now then, shield extenders... A logi can fit 5 while an assault can fit 4, that's 363 and 290.4 respectively, this is including the new +10% shield bonus from the skill.
Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 290.4 =702.9 EHP
Caldari Logistics:373.5 + 363 = 700.5 EHP
Nothing wrong so far, in fact the logi suit is losing a little since it's slower.
Except... that Caldari logi bonus... 5% + to shield extenders per level, with 5 extenders that leads to 445.5 HP from extenders alone. That's more than assault suits entire base EHP. (1 extender is worth 89.1, X that by 5) (10% shield bonus + 25% Caldari logi bonus = 35% according to Cat Merc)
So 373.5 + 445.5 = 819 EHP
819(L) - 702.9(A) = 116.1 HP difference.
This went four pages without your math getting fixed? Not sure which country's education system is responsible. Your math makes the Caldari logi look stronger.
"So 373.5 + 445.5 = 819 EHP"
Where does that number come from? It's meant to be logistics base hp with passives, right? You carried the number wrong. You have the right one at the top too:
"-337.5"
You buffed their EHP by 37hp or so with a math error.
I posted this elsewhere, but part of my suggested fix to assault suits is a hp buff.
With Caldari, At ADV level, +20 hp, and +40 to the Proto frame on top of that. It widen the HP gap on the better frames. So, as the Logi gets more slots, the Assault also get more hp. The logi can still beat the assault on shields (slightly), but requires more modules to do so.
Also, you said the logi had three lows in another post - that's incorrect. Proto Cal Logistics if 5H 4L 3E (sum of 12), this matches Minmatar 4H 4L 4E (12) and Gallente 3H 5L 4E (12). |
Zeylon Rho
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
168
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Posted - 2013.05.14 07:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Eskel Bondfree wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:
However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is.
You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). A few notes here (some of them questions)
- Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal?
- What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed?
- How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots?
- What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault?
- How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU,
3,615 ISK
- How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit.
- Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod.
- Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value.
Looking forward to seeing your response to each of these items. Cheers, Cross EDIT: here's CCP Remnant on the subject, of suit roles.
I assume you were aware that he can't actually legitimately complete his little experiment, because the logi can't stack 5 shield extenders to match the Assault AND use a Shield Recharger module. None of the biotics will actually fix the base movement speed anyhow. Of course, you might possibly need to add Regulators to approximate a delay change. I'd actually be fine with assaults having the better delay stats across the board, but I assume that's not nerf-batty enough for detractors.
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Zeylon Rho
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
170
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Posted - 2013.05.14 08:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:RevoL Frog wrote:Let us also not forget that the hit boxes on the Logi Suits are bigger than the hit boxes Is that even true, was that ever true? They have the same models, why would they have bigger hit boxes? Quote:Edit* You also forgot to point out the current racial bonus for the Caldari Assault suit; The shields regenerate fatser, which makes it more suitable for frontline combat than the slower Logi. Logis have a better delay... so yeah... Quote:Personally, I believe the Caldari Logi suit is perfectly fine. Interesting...
The delay difference is small (1 second, normally), whereas an assault with his class recharge bonus has recharge 56% higher per second without any modules. The difference in delay gets blown out of the water when recharge triggers.
So, in the course of a few second period
Shields lower--Logi-recharge begins----Logi has regained 20hp-----Logi has regained 40hp-----------Now 60hp regained
Shields lower--wait 1 second more------Assault recharge begins----Assault has regained 31.25 hp--Now 62.5 hp regained
For the high high price of.... 1 second, the Assault recharge outstrips the Logi by leaps and bounds, literally in 2-ticks. |
Zeylon Rho
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170
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Posted - 2013.05.14 08:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:A'hhh, but the depleted delay is 2 seconds, so we get a 40HP head start as well as our armor healing in the meantime.
Perhaps swapping the delays would be an easy balance fix then? You could do that without touching anything else. |
Zeylon Rho
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174
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Posted - 2013.05.14 08:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yay Adski wrote:Instead of nerfing one thing, why not buff others? This is why the game has gone to ****, too many people crying for nerfs dulling it down.
Considering this game will have PvE content as well, I think people should be aware of what will happen if they make everything suck by that point. |
Zeylon Rho
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180
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Posted - 2013.05.14 11:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Yep, I always like to ask rather than state when I can just in case someone sees something I haven't but that's pretty much the point if you plug in mods to bring the stats of the Logi in line with the base stats of the Assault and then compare what's left the differences (such as they are) seem negligible. I'd still be interested to see someone post fits they think break this assessment but without using the AR I haven't encountered an example yet. If that remains the case then it's pretty much a given that it's not the dropsuit in question that's the issue. (Two notes; 1. The Cal Logi could likely use a light down scale of it's racial bonus and the Amarr a light to very light buff of it's stats to bring the 4 racial logi types in line with each other. 2. The balance issue identified by objections to "slayer logi' is not a result of one factor and as such needs a nuanced resolution not swinging the nerf hammer. If some Mercs are dead set on QQing until the nerf hammer comes out then all I have to say is the AR is part of the current problem and they should keep that in mind when QQing for nerfs.)
The delay-swap would be a pretty big fix. Dropping the shield buff to 3% (15% at max then) would probably be fine too. The TAR are a larger issue than the Caldari Logi imho at the moment.
The Amarr Logi need (in my opinion) another low slot at Proto (they have the same number of module slots as their assault), and they need PG that's higher than their assault as well.
I'd also be fine with Caldari keeping the full shield bonus, and retooling the assault suits in general (as they're one-note and undistinguished from the basic frames right now). Alongside that, I think the Gall logi bonus could be more useful - as with maxed passives a PG/CPU bonus is a bit crap.
The assault recharge passive overall is very strong. Assaults already have better recharge, so it gives them a big lead (over logis anyway). However, I could see something like the hybrid reload or hybrid fitting being.... uh... underwhelming. |
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