DUST Search - Caldari Logi vs Assault

Cross Atu wrote:

A few notes here (some of them questions)

Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal?
What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed?
How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots?
What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault?
How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU,

3,615 ISK

How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit.
Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod.
Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 98	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:18:00 - [1] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Possible changes: If you were to get rid of even one low slot then this fit could still be used as a pseudo assault suit, but it would lose access to two equipment slots. Just something I'd like to get straight: if I understand correctly, the point you are making is that logis don't need any changes what so ever, except for the caldari racial bonus. Yet at the end of your first post, you suggest to remove at least one low slot from the caldari logi to bring it in line with the assault. So what do you actually want, touch the logi or not?
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 98	Posted - 2013.05.13 19:01:00 - [2] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is. You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller).
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 99	Posted - 2013.05.13 19:34:00 - [3] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Before you could reduce a light weapons CPU fitting cost by 40%, now you can only reduce it by 15% and the PG requirements by 25%. Since all other suits had less CPU and PG to begin with, it hits them harder than it hit logis. That's a good point. Personally, I'd like to see CCP work more with various fitting boni (or even penalties) tied to the different suits. For example, a fitting bonus to weapons for assault and heavy, bonus to equipment and e-war modules to logis, something along those lines. It would essentially narrow down the spectrum of possible fittings and move it towards the intended role of each suit, without locking anyone out of the other roles completely or making all fittings less effective across the board.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 101	Posted - 2013.05.14 19:43:00 - [4] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: A few notes here (some of them questions) Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal? What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed? How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots? What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault? How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU, 3,615 ISK How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit. Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod. Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value. Hm, not sure if you were really asking for answers to your questions, but I'll try to address your points in case you are interested anyway. Skill points: the required SP to fit either a logi or assault suit are of course equal, because both suit skills have the same multiplier. The rest is up to the player, everything you can slap onto a logi can be slapped onto the assault. Remember I'm not talking about a logi player who skilled into repair tools or something, I'm talking about someone who is using the logi for his assault build. ISK: I have no idea what the isk difference would be. But frankly, I don't think it matters, because ultimately, isk is not a factor in balancing suits or modules. I believe that sadly, eventually isk will simply become a virtually unlimited resource for big corps and alliances, just like it is the case in Eve Online. Biotics and scanner: I don't see the point in fitting biotics or scanner modules to offset logi base stats. The scan precision of the logi is actually better than that of an assault (lower is better). And obviously walking speed remains unaffected by modules, it's one of the logi's significant disadvantages. Racial assault bonus: you have a good point in that the shield regeneration bonus is actually a good trade in for the built in armor repair (from an assaults perspective). So I'll remove the repper from the assault fit. Changing my numbers to take into account that fitting boni are multiplicative, we should arrive at a remaining fitting capacity of: Assault: 101 CPU/25 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 165 CPU/37 PG and 4 lows. (Both having roughly equal EHP, with the logi gaining a small advantage due to the higher shield portion of his EHP) The logi has still more to work with, while trading lower shield regeneration for its armor repair and giving up the side arm and 6% strafe speed (I still call it a tad, because not everyones play style evolves around crazy strafe patterns). Honestly, I still think that, in this particular case, the logi gains an edge over the assault that it shouldn't have being the 'logistics' role. Of course you are completely right that the problem might not even exist if it wasn't for the generic all around weapon, aka assault rifle (and since today, scrambler rifle). But as a matter of fact, the AR exists and I don't see it going away ever. Though I wouldn't miss it much. In fact, I believe the game would become a lot more dynamic and interesting, and less generic in the sense of 'military in space'. One last note, I retract what I said about the Gallente and Logi, because they have both one high slot less in exchange for their equipment slot. And as you pointed out, the built in rep of the Minmatar assault complicates things even further.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 103	Posted - 2013.06.08 16:03:00 - [5] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: words Thanks for your detailed response, it seems we mostly of agree on the Caldari logi. Please note that I never attempted to truly 'normalize' the logi and assault suit, the point of suit specializations is that they are different, after all. I merely tried to bring both on the same level in terms of HP and fire power (because I think these matter the most in an FPS) to compare their fitting abilities, while their respective pros/cons still apply (as you said, it's a matter of personal play style how big their impact really is). I think most things that matter have been said in this thread already, but before I let it sink back to the bottom of the forum, I want to add: The side arm slot needs to matter more! We already agreed that withouth the AR, logis are bad assaults. But the AR is the only thing you need 90% of the time in this game. CCP should make the sidearm more vital outside of sniper and AV fittings, that would actually buff the assault suits in general and also the Amarr proto logi (which seems very underwhelming at the moment). On the same note, I'd lilke to see the equipment slot matter more, as well. Every assault slaps on a nano hive, because it's the only thing really useful for a combat role. This takes away the resupply role from logis way too often. So healing and reviving is the only thing left for dedicated logis, there should be more (looking forward to shield bubbles and ewar equipment). You might have misunderstood me on the topic of isk. I didn't imply isk is meaningless, it's not. And I do hope isk remains an important factor even for large player alliances. What I'm saying is that two pieces of equipment, that are on the same performance level and are used in a similar way, must be balanced by their performance alone, not by their price relative to each other. Likewise, the fact that a player can obtain higher performance over their opponent through higher isk cost is only acceptable as long as the opponent has the option of increasing their performance by spending more isk as well. If my proto assault is operating at peak performance (because all slosts are filled and all CPU/PG is used up), there should be no other fitting that can reach an even higher combat performance by spending more isk than me (it would be fine if the fitting had a higher flexibility through extra equipment, but it should not exceed the core performance of any other proto suit withouth a significant disadvantage).
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 103	Posted - 2013.06.12 16:34:00 - [6] - Quote Bob Teller wrote: And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. If you do that then you have to take into acount the +25% shield regeneration bonus for assault(cost 60cpu) Cross Atu already brought that up. Please see my previous post (#135) on the matter.