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RevoL Frog The Generals EoN. 22	Posted - 2013.05.14 08:04:00 - [121] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: RevoL Frog wrote: Let us also not forget that the hit boxes on the Logi Suits are bigger than the hit boxes Is that even true, was that ever true? They have the same models, why would they have bigger hit boxes? Quote: Edit* You also forgot to point out the current racial bonus for the Caldari Assault suit; The shields regenerate fatser, which makes it more suitable for frontline combat than the slower Logi. Logis have a better delay... so yeah... Quote: Personally, I believe the Caldari Logi suit is perfectly fine. Interesting... Yep Heavy>Logi>Assault>Scout.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 430	Posted - 2013.05.14 08:06:00 - [122] - Quote So the supmodel bodied female models have the same hit boxes as the male models, but logis have a bigger frame even though they have the exact same model... Has anyone ever proven that or gotten it confirmed? I know people say it all the time, but was it ever confirmed? Pretty sure that their "frame" sizes refer to their hit-boxes, in which case logis and assaults both have a medium hit box.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 170	Posted - 2013.05.14 08:24:00 - [123] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: RevoL Frog wrote: Let us also not forget that the hit boxes on the Logi Suits are bigger than the hit boxes Is that even true, was that ever true? They have the same models, why would they have bigger hit boxes? Quote: Edit* You also forgot to point out the current racial bonus for the Caldari Assault suit; The shields regenerate fatser, which makes it more suitable for frontline combat than the slower Logi. Logis have a better delay... so yeah... Quote: Personally, I believe the Caldari Logi suit is perfectly fine. Interesting... The delay difference is small (1 second, normally), whereas an assault with his class recharge bonus has recharge 56% higher per second without any modules. The difference in delay gets blown out of the water when recharge triggers. So, in the course of a few second period Shields lower--Logi-recharge begins----Logi has regained 20hp-----Logi has regained 40hp-----------Now 60hp regained Shields lower--wait 1 second more------Assault recharge begins----Assault has regained 31.25 hp--Now 62.5 hp regained For the high high price of.... 1 second, the Assault recharge outstrips the Logi by leaps and bounds, literally in 2-ticks.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 431	Posted - 2013.05.14 08:29:00 - [124] - Quote A'hhh, but the depleted delay is 2 seconds, so we get a 40HP head start as well as our armor healing in the meantime.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 170	Posted - 2013.05.14 08:31:00 - [125] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: A'hhh, but the depleted delay is 2 seconds, so we get a 40HP head start as well as our armor healing in the meantime. Perhaps swapping the delays would be an easy balance fix then? You could do that without touching anything else.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 431	Posted - 2013.05.14 08:34:00 - [126] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: A'hhh, but the depleted delay is 2 seconds, so we get a 40HP head start as well as our armor healing in the meantime. Perhaps swapping the delays would be an easy balance fix then? You could do that without touching anything else. That's not how it works around these parts, it's the nerf sledgehammer... or nothing. Seriously, the QQ won't stop until something big happens and changing delays I fear is not big enough.
Yay Adski Imperfects Negative-Feedback 235	Posted - 2013.05.14 08:54:00 - [127] - Quote Instead of nerfing one thing, why not buff others? This is why the game has gone to ****, too many people crying for nerfs dulling it down.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 174	Posted - 2013.05.14 08:56:00 - [128] - Quote Yay Adski wrote: Instead of nerfing one thing, why not buff others? This is why the game has gone to ****, too many people crying for nerfs dulling it down. Considering this game will have PvE content as well, I think people should be aware of what will happen if they make everything suck by that point.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 905	Posted - 2013.05.14 09:12:00 - [129] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Yay Adski wrote: Instead of nerfing one thing, why not buff others? This is why the game has gone to ***, too many people crying for nerfs dulling it down. Considering this game will have PvE content as well, I think people should be aware of what will happen if they make everything suck by that point. In a few hours, we're going to have a massive influx a new players that haven't learned the lessons we've never learned until now. They'll QQ in caps lock about the heavy they couldn't kill with their MLT AR inside* the heavy's optimal range, they'll QQ about tanks, and snipers, and scramblers, and just about anything else because this game doesn't spoon feed them gratification with a cone shaped rifle spread and the hitbox the size of a barn. It's going to be our job as the veterans to put these newberries in their place and teach them the ins and outs of Dust 514, because quite frankly, CCP is busier making sure a female scout's gams look good under dynamic lighting than making a proper tutorial.
Purona Militaires Sans Jeux 8	Posted - 2013.05.14 11:00:00 - [130] - Quote i swear if CCP even touch logis in a nerfing way im out of here you give us lower shields lower armor lower movement speed lover stamina lover stamina regen lower precision no side arm lower shield recharge rate and since we can stack one stat to become better at one area assaults want to nerf us get real a nerf to logis would just show me that CCP have no idea what they are doing an assaults job is to take targets with speed strength and durability they can easily change what they are doing at any moment get into a fight run from the fight engage in medium to short range battles they have adaptability to many situations due to there higher base stats logistics are specifically created to focus on one area we cant just add one module and receive a major boost we have to use 2 modules to even surpass an assault suit in one stat all these asaults trying to nerf logistics class are only looking at module allocation you never once see an assault bring up any other stat beyond modules

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 975	Posted - 2013.05.14 11:25:00 - [131] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Eskel Bondfree wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is. You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). A few notes here (some of them questions) Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal? What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed? How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots? What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault? How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU, 3,615 ISK How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit. Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod. Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value. Looking forward to seeing your response to each of these items. Cheers, Cross EDIT: here's CCP Remnant on the subject, of suit roles. I assume you were aware that he can't actually legitimately complete his little experiment, because the logi can't stack 5 shield extenders to match the Assault AND use a Shield Recharger module. None of the biotics will actually fix the base movement speed anyhow. Of course, you might possibly need to add Regulators to approximate a delay change. I'd actually be fine with assaults having the better delay stats across the board, but I assume that's not nerf-batty enough for detractors. Yep, I always like to ask rather than state when I can just in case someone sees something I haven't but that's pretty much the point if you plug in mods to bring the stats of the Logi in line with the base stats of the Assault and then compare what's left the differences (such as they are) seem negligible. I'd still be interested to see someone post fits they think break this assessment but without using the AR I haven't encountered an example yet. If that remains the case then it's pretty much a given that it's not the dropsuit in question that's the issue. (Two notes; 1. The Cal Logi could likely use a light down scale of it's racial bonus and the Amarr a light to very light buff of it's stats to bring the 4 racial logi types in line with each other. 2. The balance issue identified by objections to "slayer logi' is not a result of one factor and as such needs a nuanced resolution not swinging the nerf hammer. If some Mercs are dead set on QQing until the nerf hammer comes out then all I have to say is the AR is part of the current problem and they should keep that in mind when QQing for nerfs.)
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 180	Posted - 2013.05.14 11:35:00 - [132] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: snip Yep, I always like to ask rather than state when I can just in case someone sees something I haven't but that's pretty much the point if you plug in mods to bring the stats of the Logi in line with the base stats of the Assault and then compare what's left the differences (such as they are) seem negligible. I'd still be interested to see someone post fits they think break this assessment but without using the AR I haven't encountered an example yet. If that remains the case then it's pretty much a given that it's not the dropsuit in question that's the issue. (Two notes; 1. The Cal Logi could likely use a light down scale of it's racial bonus and the Amarr a light to very light buff of it's stats to bring the 4 racial logi types in line with each other. 2. The balance issue identified by objections to "slayer logi' is not a result of one factor and as such needs a nuanced resolution not swinging the nerf hammer. If some Mercs are dead set on QQing until the nerf hammer comes out then all I have to say is the AR is part of the current problem and they should keep that in mind when QQing for nerfs.) The delay-swap would be a pretty big fix. Dropping the shield buff to 3% (15% at max then) would probably be fine too. The TAR are a larger issue than the Caldari Logi imho at the moment. The Amarr Logi need (in my opinion) another low slot at Proto (they have the same number of module slots as their assault), and they need PG that's higher than their assault as well. I'd also be fine with Caldari keeping the full shield bonus, and retooling the assault suits in general (as they're one-note and undistinguished from the basic frames right now). Alongside that, I think the Gall logi bonus could be more useful - as with maxed passives a PG/CPU bonus is a bit crap. The assault recharge passive overall is very strong. Assaults already have better recharge, so it gives them a big lead (over logis anyway). However, I could see something like the hybrid reload or hybrid fitting being.... uh... underwhelming.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 436	Posted - 2013.05.14 16:23:00 - [133] - Quote Purona wrote: all these asaults trying to nerf logistics class are only looking at module allocation you never once see an assault bring up any other stat beyond modules While I agree with you, that bonus is still too good. Oh, and Logi <------
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 436	Posted - 2013.05.14 16:25:00 - [134] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: If some Mercs are dead set on QQing until the nerf hammer comes out then all I have to say is the AR is part of the current problem and they should keep that in mind when QQing for nerfs.) That'll be the day...
Purona Militaires Sans Jeux 9	Posted - 2013.05.14 17:52:00 - [135] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Purona wrote: all these asaults trying to nerf logistics class are only looking at module allocation you never once see an assault bring up any other stat beyond modules While I agree with you, that bonus is still too good. Oh, and Logi <------ explain to me why its TOO GOOD
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 436	Posted - 2013.05.14 17:54:00 - [136] - Quote There's an entire front page dedicated to that, if that doesn't satisfy you then there's nothing else I can do here.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 101	Posted - 2013.05.14 19:43:00 - [137] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: A few notes here (some of them questions) Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal? What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed? How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots? What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault? How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU, 3,615 ISK How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit. Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod. Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value. Hm, not sure if you were really asking for answers to your questions, but I'll try to address your points in case you are interested anyway. Skill points: the required SP to fit either a logi or assault suit are of course equal, because both suit skills have the same multiplier. The rest is up to the player, everything you can slap onto a logi can be slapped onto the assault. Remember I'm not talking about a logi player who skilled into repair tools or something, I'm talking about someone who is using the logi for his assault build. ISK: I have no idea what the isk difference would be. But frankly, I don't think it matters, because ultimately, isk is not a factor in balancing suits or modules. I believe that sadly, eventually isk will simply become a virtually unlimited resource for big corps and alliances, just like it is the case in Eve Online. Biotics and scanner: I don't see the point in fitting biotics or scanner modules to offset logi base stats. The scan precision of the logi is actually better than that of an assault (lower is better). And obviously walking speed remains unaffected by modules, it's one of the logi's significant disadvantages. Racial assault bonus: you have a good point in that the shield regeneration bonus is actually a good trade in for the built in armor repair (from an assaults perspective). So I'll remove the repper from the assault fit. Changing my numbers to take into account that fitting boni are multiplicative, we should arrive at a remaining fitting capacity of: Assault: 101 CPU/25 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 165 CPU/37 PG and 4 lows. (Both having roughly equal EHP, with the logi gaining a small advantage due to the higher shield portion of his EHP) The logi has still more to work with, while trading lower shield regeneration for its armor repair and giving up the side arm and 6% strafe speed (I still call it a tad, because not everyones play style evolves around crazy strafe patterns). Honestly, I still think that, in this particular case, the logi gains an edge over the assault that it shouldn't have being the 'logistics' role. Of course you are completely right that the problem might not even exist if it wasn't for the generic all around weapon, aka assault rifle (and since today, scrambler rifle). But as a matter of fact, the AR exists and I don't see it going away ever. Though I wouldn't miss it much. In fact, I believe the game would become a lot more dynamic and interesting, and less generic in the sense of 'military in space'. One last note, I retract what I said about the Gallente and Logi, because they have both one high slot less in exchange for their equipment slot. And as you pointed out, the built in rep of the Minmatar assault complicates things even further.
RedBleach LeSanglant Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 208	Posted - 2013.05.15 17:35:00 - [138] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Yay Adski wrote: Instead of nerfing one thing, why not buff others? This is why the game has gone to ***, too many people crying for nerfs dulling it down. Considering this game will have PvE content as well, I think people should be aware of what will happen if they make everything suck by that point. In a few hours, we're going to have a massive influx a new players that haven't learned the lessons we've never learned until now. They'll QQ in caps lock about the heavy they couldn't kill with their MLT AR inside* the heavy's optimal range, they'll QQ about tanks, and snipers, and scramblers, and just about anything else because this game doesn't spoon feed them gratification with a cone shaped rifle spread and the hitbox the size of a barn. It's going to be our job as the veterans to put these newberries in their place and teach them the ins and outs of Dust 514, because quite frankly, CCP is busier making sure a female scout's gams look good under dynamic lighting than making a proper tutorial. But I wholly appreciate those gams and fully support the work to make them even better... is there something else they should be doing? (on top of all the other stuff that is already happening) I think not. =p
CommanderBolt A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 18	Posted - 2013.05.17 06:43:00 - [139] - Quote Logi is Underpowered, BUFF logi today! Nerf weapons now! Rainbows and love for all. <3
RedBleach LeSanglant Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 209	Posted - 2013.05.17 17:17:00 - [140] - Quote Funny that after the Scrambler Rifle came out the thread died as an option came out that was very effective against these Caldari Logissaults. However... Logis are good as is (except Amarr -broken as hell). Buff the Assaults in a way that matters.

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1059	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:20:00 - [141] - Quote @Eskel Bondfree Re: Post #135 Yes I'm actually asking, even if I think I know the answers to things I still like to get additional input and I want to say upfront thanks for responding. Now on to the line by line Skill Points The SP to run the specific suit is equal this is true, the SP to run a fully proto fit most certainly is not equal. If one assumes a logi suit being used for a pure slayer build then that does bring down the SP cost but when you include all the mods required to normalize the logi suit base stats with those naturally built into the assault. For a true comparison this must be included as the assumptive dismissal of relevant suit factors is poor practice. Everyone has unique play styles (to some degree) and these stats are used as part of balance by CCP, if any stat is truly meaningless then it falls on CCP to improve the mechanics of that stat to make it functional and relevant not upon the player base to simply ignore it outright. Biotics and scanner See above, when making direct comparisons stat normalization matters. Quote: The logi has still more to work with, while trading lower shield regeneration for its armor repair and giving up the side arm and 6% strafe speed (I still call it a tad, because not everyone's play style evolves around crazy strafe patterns). I actually agree here but again I don't believe this can be trivialized. Not all play styles use it, in the same way not all play styles fail to use it. That aspect cuts both ways and as such remains relevant because the question isn't "is the logi suit better for slayer play for certain specific people/play styles". In a similar vein the sidearm is a non-trivial sacrifice, some slayers I know don't use their sidearms but more of them most certainly do. Even beyond that an assault suit can be used for light weapon based AV by fitting the correct light weapon and the user will retain all other utility of that suit, however a logi suit used in the same way becomes completely vulnerable to infantry as it possesses no sidearm to fall back upon. When considering the value of having a suit unlocked over focusing on one specific situation (even if that situation is primary) doesn't really tell the whole story and as such is flawed. ISK Here I think is where we differ most greatly. The price of fits, mods etc must be taken into account as it is most certainly part of the balancing paradigm. Assuming the lack of meaning for ISK also assumes unlimited use of pure proto which CCP has expressly stated they do not want. Further even if one were to presume that the ISK stagnation you describe is coming that to me is the a mechanical flaw in it's own right and really should be balanced around, rather it should be directly addressed. The whole game becomes quite broken if we eliminate all economic considerations from the playing field, all clones and clone packs from PC become free, dropping 300 proto tanks into a match and losing them doesn't matter. A single Merc burning 50 pure proto fits ceases to have any "bite" beyond e-peening for stats. New Eden is driven by economics, and while I'm not saying the system or situation is perfect it is there and it's not something that can simply be disregarded out of hand. The AR I agree it's not likely to go anywhere and while I don't use it much I'm not even suggesting that it should be removed. However the point remains that if the AR is the key to the problem then it's not the logi suit which is broken. Nerfing other game aspects to balance around something else causing problems is bad practice. If the swarm launcher has bad pathing you don't nerf the eHP of vehicles, you fix the pathing on the swarm launcher. Conclusion Now that I've gotten done quibbling over details I wanted to thank you for a clear and well thought out post. I'm sorry my reply has been late in coming and I further want to reiterate that I do think the Cal Logi needs a but of a tone down as compared to the other Logi suits, but I'm of the mind that adjusting the racial bonus would be enough. The Assault suits also have, in some cases, underwhelming racial buffs and that needs looked at as well. Those changes may not be enough to fully fine tune balance but in my view they're enough to warrant their own change and see where things stand after (sweeping changes tend to be poor balance practice in my experience). Cheers, Cross ps ~ CCP has confirmed more than one bug in the current hit detection protocols as well as an occlusion bug which causes splash/explosion damage to only apply sporadically. In addition there is a but which causes Mass Driver rounds and grenades to at times simply not detonate. There are also some bugs in the application of damage from OBs. All of these are relevant to the battlefield and to the hp balance between shields and armor as well as the over all meta of gear on the battlefield. We may see shield tanking take a hit game wide when these bugs are resolved. I'd also like to note that I say this as an armor tanker so I'm not trying to "protect my build" or some such.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic ROFL BROS 1792	Posted - 2013.06.06 20:54:00 - [142] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Funny that after the Scrambler Rifle came out the thread died as an option came out that was very effective against these Caldari Logissaults. That's cause people stopped bitching, this might just need a bump though...
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 103	Posted - 2013.06.08 16:03:00 - [143] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: words Thanks for your detailed response, it seems we mostly of agree on the Caldari logi. Please note that I never attempted to truly 'normalize' the logi and assault suit, the point of suit specializations is that they are different, after all. I merely tried to bring both on the same level in terms of HP and fire power (because I think these matter the most in an FPS) to compare their fitting abilities, while their respective pros/cons still apply (as you said, it's a matter of personal play style how big their impact really is). I think most things that matter have been said in this thread already, but before I let it sink back to the bottom of the forum, I want to add: The side arm slot needs to matter more! We already agreed that withouth the AR, logis are bad assaults. But the AR is the only thing you need 90% of the time in this game. CCP should make the sidearm more vital outside of sniper and AV fittings, that would actually buff the assault suits in general and also the Amarr proto logi (which seems very underwhelming at the moment). On the same note, I'd lilke to see the equipment slot matter more, as well. Every assault slaps on a nano hive, because it's the only thing really useful for a combat role. This takes away the resupply role from logis way too often. So healing and reviving is the only thing left for dedicated logis, there should be more (looking forward to shield bubbles and ewar equipment). You might have misunderstood me on the topic of isk. I didn't imply isk is meaningless, it's not. And I do hope isk remains an important factor even for large player alliances. What I'm saying is that two pieces of equipment, that are on the same performance level and are used in a similar way, must be balanced by their performance alone, not by their price relative to each other. Likewise, the fact that a player can obtain higher performance over their opponent through higher isk cost is only acceptable as long as the opponent has the option of increasing their performance by spending more isk as well. If my proto assault is operating at peak performance (because all slosts are filled and all CPU/PG is used up), there should be no other fitting that can reach an even higher combat performance by spending more isk than me (it would be fine if the fitting had a higher flexibility through extra equipment, but it should not exceed the core performance of any other proto suit withouth a significant disadvantage).
Bob Teller The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 3	Posted - 2013.06.12 00:42:00 - [144] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is. You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. ~~And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller).~~ Actually they don't, because both have one low slot less in exchange for the 4th equipment slot.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 103	Posted - 2013.06.12 16:34:00 - [145] - Quote Bob Teller wrote: And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. If you do that then you have to take into acount the +25% shield regeneration bonus for assault(cost 60cpu) Cross Atu already brought that up. Please see my previous post (#135) on the matter.
GVGISDEAD Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2013.06.12 16:47:00 - [146] - Quote If caldari logi is nerfed then the rest of the logistics suits must be nerfed because the WHOLE assault class is a subpar if not used correctly... The assault bonus of shield regen is pretty good if used along with a prototype complex shield regen, complex shield extenders and complex shield regulators. The movement speed just reinforces the idea that the Assault class should be used to enter and exit the fights constantly and not an actual iTank frontliner... the capability to regen their shield fast is what makes it good but people want to tank like heavies with them and let us not forget the overpowered flaylock that tears enemies in a blink. If anything the assault class needs an increase in cpu and pg since one of the issues is not being able to fit all the good stuff that would make it a great dropsuit without using a lower tier weapon
NAV HIV The Generals EoN. 229	Posted - 2013.06.12 16:54:00 - [147] - Quote GVGISDEAD wrote: If caldari logi is nerfed then the rest of the logistics suits must be nerfed because the WHOLE assault class is a subpar if not used correctly... The assault bonus of shield regen is pretty good if used along with a prototype complex shield regen, complex shield extenders and complex shield regulators. The movement speed just reinforces the idea that the Assault class should be used to enter and exit the fights constantly and not an actual iTank frontliner... the capability to regen their shield fast is what makes it good but people want to tank like heavies with them and let us not forget the overpowered flaylock that tears enemies in a blink. If anything the assault class needs an increase in cpu and pg since one of the issues is not being able to fit all the good stuff that would make it a great dropsuit without using a lower tier weapon Yup right now the Caldari assault has to choose between gank or tank. Needs a buff to CPU and PG. The caldari Logi how ever should be balanced out. Not nerf, just tweak it a bit to make it serve its purpose


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