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NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
415
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:03:00 -
[91] - Quote
Are the skills additive or multiplicative? It's a simple question bro. |
Belzeebub Santana
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
476
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:11:00 -
[92] - Quote
Glad you went back and edited your post stating that caLogi had only 3 lows it makes a significant difference. Like you posted above fitting CPU or PG enhancements makes the suit a lot more flexible. The point you make about the highs being equal is about right because of the extra HP the assault gets but this is the only suit with 9 mod slots and makes it by far the most versatile class. (I accept your apology)
With regards to armor stacking not being effective thus making the gaLogi not OP is yet to be seen. CCP has stated that different types of armor is coming out. There will be one that negates the movement penalty and another that has a repper on it. Will the armor plate that repairs itself repair all the armor on the suit or just the amount that it protects?
The fact that the gaLogi has one more equip slot and one less mod slot than the caLogi might mean that it won't go through the same OP hate as its counterpart but we won't know until they give us the armor plates to play with.
As far as the other Logi suits haven't done enough scrutiny over them to find potential flaws. |
Belzeebub Santana
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
476
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 21:12:00 -
[93] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Are the skills additive or multiplicative? It's a simple question bro.
Ya wish dev could confirm which it is, have seen people use both and not sure what is correct. |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:21:00 -
[94] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION..................
679 !!!!! you tell me if its add or mult 679 max skills and mods is all you get !!!!!! 679, 679, 679.. OMG THE SKY IS FALLING!!! YOU GUYS SEEM PRETTY SMART. 679 IS ALL YOU GET !!
END TRANSMISSION................ .. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
417
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:27:00 -
[95] - Quote
ImMortal SoLDieR X wrote:START TRANSMISSION.................. 679 !!!!! you tell me if its add or mult 679 max skills and mods is all you get !!!!!! 679, 679, 679.. OMG THE SKY IS FALLING!!! YOU GUYS SEEM PRETTY SMART. 679 IS ALL YOU GET !! END TRANSMISSION................ ..
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NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
417
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:30:00 -
[96] - Quote
Belzeebub Santana wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Are the skills additive or multiplicative? It's a simple question bro. Ya wish dev could confirm which it is, have seen people use both and not sure what is correct. Someone here's gotta know... I imagine my friend above us is a Caldari logi which is why he's so sure of himself, though it would be nice if he would just say it instead of screwing around |
Lone Badger
Badger Consulting LLC
3
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:43:00 -
[97] - Quote
OK I figured I would give my 2 isk since everyone else is.
**The logis traded their sidearm for more equipment slots not more equipment slots AND high/low slots**
Remove a low slot from the Min Logi Remove a high slot from the Gal Logi Remove a high OR a low slot from the Cal Logi
some minor tweaking to the racial suit bonuses and I would be happy and would think that all is right in the world of logis, scouts, and assaults....................vehicles and heavies on the other hand.............
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NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
419
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:47:00 -
[98] - Quote
Lone Badger wrote:OK I figured I would give my 2 isk since everyone else is.
**The logis traded their sidearm for more equipment slots not more equipment slots AND high/low slots**
Remove a low slot from the Min Logi Remove a high slot from the Gal Logi Remove a high OR a low slot from the Cal Logi
some minor tweaking to the racial suit bonuses and I would be happy and would think that all is right in the world of logis, scouts, and assaults....................vehicles and heavies on the other hand.............
While I have suggested similar things in other threads, I feel their slot layouts should only be changed if all else fails to balnce them out.
That said, I feel the need to point out that their higher slot count comes from their lower base stats, not the loss of their sidearm. |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:50:00 -
[99] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION...............
I guess you guys didn't notice in all other builds the logi had 12 slots. hmmmph. Take away a slot from all classes then. ooooohhhh no one likes that idea huh?
END TRANSMISSION................... |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
419
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:55:00 -
[100] - Quote
They were also a bit slower and had less HP, not to mention assaults had 2 equip slots as did scouts? |
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ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
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Posted - 2013.05.13 22:00:00 -
[101] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION...................
They are still slow read the stats you posted lol for this caldari logi. You do know you posted the stats ? oh yeah others did have 1 more eq slot to do the logis job. its not needed now we have logis that can do the job... Id say your beat for rap... if your logi cant fight to save your behind hes usless. Ive seen assault guys duvolle out with no sidearm and no grenades why cant the logi do the same if he wants to bang out. So killing is only for assault guys lol muhahahahahaha your a funny guy. Tell me how much shield you get in your suit when maxed out !!!
END TRANSMISSION....................... |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
420
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Posted - 2013.05.13 22:07:00 -
[102] - Quote
Slower, as in 4.5, the speed of the current Amarr Logi, although there was a speed variant which was slightly different that I don't remember, but yeah, you keep ignoring that stuff.
Not to mention the Type-II Assault was even faster |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
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Posted - 2013.05.13 22:25:00 -
[103] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION.......................
He is beat for rap like I said!!!! Its your post and you started like the stats were correct. Now that someone has addressed it you don't wanna talk and im an id.............. lol your funny but I did ask you a question how much shields is in your suit when maxed out no dmg mods all shields...? I bet you use the tac ar as well all versions... 4.7 is not much faster than 4.5 lol your a funny guy when you get exposed lol. We all now know you don't know anything about what your talking about. Im done here. .This post is toast.
END TRANSMISSION.......................... |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
421
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Posted - 2013.05.13 22:36:00 -
[104] - Quote
I asked you to clarify, you failed to do so and went off tangent, what tangent? I don't know, I think you're on drugs. |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
42
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Posted - 2013.05.13 23:05:00 -
[105] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION.....................
Now im on drugs for helping you ? looooooool 679 max shields with max skills for the caldari logi you have the answer. You clearly took the time to post all this so Ive now given you the answer so you could correct this post and Im on drugs?. hahahahahaha
Clearly this guy is having a nervous breakdown. OMG Peggy is not even hot !!!!!!!!! CRASH! (Mayhem) How more clear could I be?
TRANSMISSION......................... |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
422
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Posted - 2013.05.13 23:09:00 -
[106] - Quote
Is that from the fitting screen? |
King Kobrah
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
273
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Posted - 2013.05.13 23:12:00 -
[107] - Quote
nerfs to logi mean literally nothing if assault specialization suits don't get buffed. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
422
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:13:00 -
[108] - Quote
King Kobrah wrote:nerfs to logi mean literally nothing if assault specialization suits don't get buffed. You must have missed the +2% dmg per level I suggested. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
969
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Posted - 2013.05.14 00:22:00 -
[109] - Quote
Eskel Bondfree wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is.
You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). A few notes here (some of them questions)
- Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal?
- What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed?
- How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots?
- What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault?
- How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU,
3,615 ISK
- How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit.
- Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod.
- Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value.
Looking forward to seeing your response to each of these items.
Cheers, Cross
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NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
423
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:31:00 -
[110] - Quote
Caldari Logibro Shield Extender values updated thanks to ImMortal SoLDieR X
CPU and PG of Caldari Logi with max passives also updated to refelect 1.3125, instead of 1.30
Cat Merc is a deceitful cat!
Edit: Stupid last bullet doesn't show up unless there's text under it. |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
969
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:32:00 -
[111] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:The same goes for the CPU and PG skills, that would change a lot. I currently don't have the SP to test them. I don't have everything in front of me but with Level 5 in both Dropsuit Core Upgrades & Dropsuit Engineering my Amarr Logi suit has 87 PG up from the base suit value of 66 (no alteration from Mods, just skills). |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
423
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:38:00 -
[112] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:The same goes for the CPU and PG skills, that would change a lot. I currently don't have the SP to test them. I don't have everything in front of me but with Level 5 in both Dropsuit Core Upgrades & Dropsuit Engineering my Amarr Logi suit has 87 PG up from the base suit value of 66 (no alteration from Mods, just skills). 66 x 1.3125 = 86.625
Yup, it seems they get rounded up as well |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
970
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:42:00 -
[113] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Cross Atu wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:The same goes for the CPU and PG skills, that would change a lot. I currently don't have the SP to test them. I don't have everything in front of me but with Level 5 in both Dropsuit Core Upgrades & Dropsuit Engineering my Amarr Logi suit has 87 PG up from the base suit value of 66 (no alteration from Mods, just skills). 66 x 1.3125 = 86.625 Yup, it seems they get rounded up as well Glad to contribute, numbers are slippery sometimes. Have you updated the OP with current numbers?
Thanks again for putting this all together. Cross |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
424
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Posted - 2013.05.14 00:45:00 -
[114] - Quote
Yeee |
Solarisjock
One-Armed Bandits Heretic Initiative
27
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Posted - 2013.05.14 06:09:00 -
[115] - Quote
simplest solution i see would be a 25-50% increase to fitting cost of weapons on a logi suit. this would make it much harder to fit. it would not be totaly gimped in a combat role, as a proto SMG or other secondary (maybe a shotty? not sure on the PG?CPU of those top of my head) but would prevent them from using the proto/advanced light weapons with out the sacrifice of EHP.
in addition to that i would not see a simliar fitting bonus to support items, say 15-30% off the top (additive to skills) to things like nanohives/needles/uplinks/reppers etc. This would let the logi keep the epic tank, not be totally defenseless, and carry the needed gear to play its intended role the best. Biggest issue i see is the effect it would have on Amarr logi as they can fit 2 weapons.
Those two changes, copmbined with the 2% per level bonus to Assault suits i think would fix most of the issues with out the EPIC NERF HAMMER OF DOOM onto anyone role/class.
Credit of this idea goes to a corp mate, i just fleshed it out a little and posted it. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
973
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 06:15:00 -
[116] - Quote
Solarisjock wrote:simplest solution i see would be a 25-50% increase to fitting cost of weapons on a logi suit. this would make it much harder to fit. it would not be totaly gimped in a combat role, as a proto SMG or other secondary (maybe a shotty? not sure on the PG?CPU of those top of my head) but would prevent them from using the proto/advanced light weapons with out the sacrifice of EHP.
in addition to that i would not see a simliar fitting bonus to support items, say 15-30% off the top (additive to skills) to things like nanohives/needles/uplinks/reppers etc. This would let the logi keep the epic tank, not be totally defenseless, and carry the needed gear to play its intended role the best. Biggest issue i see is the effect it would have on Amarr logi as they can fit 2 weapons.
Those two changes, copmbined with the 2% per level bonus to Assault suits i think would fix most of the issues with out the EPIC NERF HAMMER OF DOOM onto anyone role/class.
Credit of this idea goes to a corp mate, i just fleshed it out a little and posted it. Please respond to post #107, while it wasn't written as a reply to this I think the questions therein should be answered for this idea as well. |
RevoL Frog
The Generals EoN.
22
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Posted - 2013.05.14 07:47:00 -
[117] - Quote
Let us also not forget that the hit boxes on the Logi Suits are bigger than the hit boxes on the Assault Suits. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
168
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 07:57:00 -
[118] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Eskel Bondfree wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is.
You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). A few notes here (some of them questions)
- Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal?
- What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed?
- How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots?
- What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault?
- How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU,
3,615 ISK
- How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit.
- Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod.
- Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value.
Looking forward to seeing your response to each of these items. Cheers, Cross EDIT: here's CCP Remnant on the subject, of suit roles.
I assume you were aware that he can't actually legitimately complete his little experiment, because the logi can't stack 5 shield extenders to match the Assault AND use a Shield Recharger module. None of the biotics will actually fix the base movement speed anyhow. Of course, you might possibly need to add Regulators to approximate a delay change. I'd actually be fine with assaults having the better delay stats across the board, but I assume that's not nerf-batty enough for detractors.
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
895
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 07:59:00 -
[119] - Quote
A few more hours and this Yellow Devil problem will be solved. |
NeoWraith Acedia
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
430
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:00:00 -
[120] - Quote
RevoL Frog wrote:Let us also not forget that the hit boxes on the Logi Suits are bigger than the hit boxes Is that even true, was that ever true? They have the same models, why would they have bigger hit boxes?
Quote:Edit* You also forgot to point out the current racial bonus for the Caldari Assault suit; The shields regenerate fatser, which makes it more suitable for frontline combat than the slower Logi. Logis have a better delay... so yeah...
Quote:Personally, I believe the Caldari Logi suit is perfectly fine. Interesting... |
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