DUST Search - Caldari Logi vs Assault

Zeylon Rho wrote:

Cross Atu wrote:

Eskel Bondfree wrote:

NeoWraith Acedia wrote:

However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is.

You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat.

Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at:

Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG

We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP:
Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor)
Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to:

Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG

Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are:

Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows.

And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at:

Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows.

That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller).

A few notes here (some of them questions)

Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal?
What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed?
How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots?
What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault?
How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU,

3,615 ISK

How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit.
Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod.
Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value.

Looking forward to seeing your response to each of these items.

Cheers,
Cross

EDIT: here's CCP Remnant on the subject, of suit roles.

I assume you were aware that he can't actually legitimately complete his little experiment, because the logi can't stack 5 shield extenders to match the Assault AND use a Shield Recharger module. None of the biotics will actually fix the base movement speed anyhow. Of course, you might possibly need to add Regulators to approximate a delay change. I'd actually be fine with assaults having the better delay stats across the board, but I assume that's not nerf-batty enough for detractors.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 952	Posted - 2013.05.13 00:29:00 - [1] - Quote Delirium Inferno wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Delirium Inferno wrote: \I still don't think a logi needs to be tanking as much as an assault player though, but that's up for debate. Yes, it is up for debate, they can't help you if they're dead. They aren't redline medics, they're combat medics, they have to be in the firefight themselves if they're actually going to help you. Well that's my point exactly. They're in the combat supporting the assaults but they aren't engaging in head-to-head combat with others that they would need as much as assaults. I imagine most players in a firefight will shoot the guy shooting them, not the one providing ammo and a bit of reps. So assaults should have a bit more armor/shields. I'm not saying give them no mod slots, but they should be a little under the assaults. I've experienced nothing in my time from closed beta through to present which suggests to me that this assessment is accurate/comprehensive, and with the advent of Uprising (aka the "primary the bright yellow Logi" build) this is certainly not currently accurate. Now not to overstate the case I must say that these are averages we're talking so both reactions most certainly do occur but it's a question of ratios as soon as you start talking balance and tank. The above assessment also overlooks "dps tanking" i.e. the effect of reducing incoming dps through the use of your own out going dps. A wounded enemy is more likely to retreat or die than a foe who is taking no fire from you as you're trying to revive a fallen comrade. If anything a Logi needs a bit more tank than an Assault, the Assault should have more gank and more base mobility (both of which are vicariously forms of defense, and both of which are things the Logi cannot use in many instances while preforming it's support role). With things set up as I've described the Logi is able to actually perform support actives in a live fire zone and sometimes make it home to tell the tale, but will still usually come out on the losing side of a heads up battle with an Assault. Furthermore the comparison of the two Cal suits needs to include the implications of both bonuses not simply the 'racial' because a savvy player can get a lot more eHP out of a 25% buff to shield regen than +5 hp/s armor rep. Now all of that being said the reload speed buff does seem a bit on the weak side and likely should be swapped out for something else. If we're considering the Assault line as a whole the best fit seems to be replace the shield recharge with a %buff to damage and replace the Cal reload speak buff with a bonus to shield recharge rate. This change would not only improve the Cal suits gank/dps while maintaining it's tank it would also improve the Assault line in general as a bonus to shields for the armor tanking races is sub-optimal. In short 'change 2' from the OP seems to be the most effective and appropriate suggestion for several reasons. In fact the only drawback of change 2 I can think of would be a damage scaling issue with suits which stack pure damage mods, however that's actually an issue with the ineffective/broken stacking penalty on damage mods and thus no reason to resist the implementation of change too because the mods need fixed with our without this change. TL;DR Logis should have more tank, Assaults should have more gank, change 2 from the OP is the correct resolution Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 952	Posted - 2013.05.13 00:34:00 - [2] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Whoever the hell bumped this, thank you. Bookmarking for reading and digestion. You're welcome glad you've got eyes on this one.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 952	Posted - 2013.05.13 04:08:00 - [3] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: I would like to drop this off here though so that people can see some of it's fitting possibilities. NeoWraith Acedia wrote: H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11 PG Total = 270 CPU/ 55 PG L: Complex Shield Regulator 35 CPU/ 3 PG L: Complex Kinetic mod 27 CPU/ 15 PG L:Basic Armor Repairer 20 CPU / 1 PG L: Basic CPU Upgrade = 16% more CPU Total = 83 CPU / 19 CPU LW: Balac: 90 CPU 13 PG G: Core Locus grenade 48 CPU / 6 PG Or Allotek Flux 52 CPU / 6 PG Total: 138 or 142 CPU / 19 PG E: Ishkone Gauged Nano Hive: 59 CPU / 11PG E: Blank E: Blank Total: 59 CPU /11 PG CPU Available: 507 / PG available: 101.4 Total CPU Used: 550 or 554 CPU / PG used: 104 But that doesn't fit right? Except 507 x 1.16 = 588.12 Still not enough PG right? Assault Rifle Fitting skill(whatever it's called 13 x .25 = 3.25 104 - 3.25 = 100.75 So all this just barely fit, but is it really that much better than what can be done with a Caldari Assault Suit? Edit: Without CL bonus: Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 290.4 =702.9 EHP Caldari Logistics:337.5 + 363 = 700.5 EHP With CL Bonus: 337.5 + 445.5 = 783 EHP 783(L) - 702.9(A) = 80.1 HP difference. My god, this is game breaking Edit: Now if you used a complex CPU Upgrade, and replaced the Basic Armor repairer with a PG Upgrade, then you would be able to fill your other equipment slots, but I want all assault users to realize that this is far more expensive than your suit would ever get. Possible changes: If you were to get rid of even one low slot then this fit could still be used as a pseudo assault suit, but it would lose access to two equipment slots. If you change it's bonus then it no longer has 80.1 more HP. Just like Pheonix said in this thread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75779&find=unread You could even switch the low slot with an equipment slot, it wouldn't be able to take advantage of it without making some sacrifices. A few of things worth keeping in mind with the above numbers, one is that the eHP disparity is going to be less than the damage done by one TAR round (assuming the use of a single complex damage mod and excluding all skills). So it's gaining some additional tank at the cost of additional SP and ISK invested (does the benefit for that additional investment break the risk v reward scaling within other areas of the game?) Another element is speed, with the Kinetic the Logi build will have a faster sprint but still maintains a lower base movement and a lower total stamina and stamina recovery rate. Clearly which suit is "faster" will be situational but on balance it seems the edge still goes to the Assault suit. Finally with how tight that fit is the possible requirement of fitting at least one non-nanohive piece of equipment (base repair tool at 15 CPU/2PG is the least expensive possible option) looks to be enough to break the fit and render it invalid. What this says to me is that even without the theoretical requirement a alteration in slots isn't required. If the fit listed above is deemed to be out of line with the risk v reward scaling despite the SP/ISK required to run it then shaving a couple of points off of CPU and/or PG would prevent the fit without any major overhaul. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ It's worth noting that I'm not "defending my fit" here I do run Logi but I don't run Cal or shield tank, I'm simply assessing the data before me. pps ~ Good job on the thread OP, I'd love to see more testers providing feedback of this caliber.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 955	Posted - 2013.05.13 16:31:00 - [4] - Quote Bettie Boop 2100190003 wrote: Thanks for the thread and all the participants in the discussion, QQers excluded. As stated many times before, my personal opinion is that the OP part of the CaLogi suit is the racial bonus. I do like the idea of giving a boost to Assault suits to get people to move back that way instead of using a Logi for an assault role, and giving a de-buff (to 2%/lvl) to the CaLogi suit. Ive been reading a lot of the threads on OP Logi suits and must say this thread has had the most well informed posters and have stuck to the point. To that end I would like to add that I have been a Logi from the closed beta, and other forums suggesting all Logis need a nerf or only allowing us to have a side arm are bogus. Just because the CaLogi is current bully beating people down on the battle field doesnt mean all Logis should be hit with the same nerf bat. Thanks again for this thread I will be keeping tabs on it! Hopefully CCP takes note and leaves those of us supporting the team and not pretending to be an assault alone when they bring out the nerf bat. Completely agreed that the best and easiest fix is simply to scale down the Cal Logi racial bonus. It doesn't even need to be changed or removed just have it's per level value reduced. Even a 1% per level reduction shifts the numbers by a non-trivial amount. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 969	Posted - 2013.05.14 00:22:00 - [5] - Quote Eskel Bondfree wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is. You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). A few notes here (some of them questions) Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal? What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed? How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots? What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault? How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU, 3,615 ISK How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit. Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod. Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value. Looking forward to seeing your response to each of these items. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 969	Posted - 2013.05.14 00:32:00 - [6] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: The same goes for the CPU and PG skills, that would change a lot. I currently don't have the SP to test them. I don't have everything in front of me but with Level 5 in both Dropsuit Core Upgrades & Dropsuit Engineering my Amarr Logi suit has 87 PG up from the base suit value of 66 (no alteration from Mods, just skills).
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 970	Posted - 2013.05.14 00:42:00 - [7] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Cross Atu wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: The same goes for the CPU and PG skills, that would change a lot. I currently don't have the SP to test them. I don't have everything in front of me but with Level 5 in both Dropsuit Core Upgrades & Dropsuit Engineering my Amarr Logi suit has 87 PG up from the base suit value of 66 (no alteration from Mods, just skills). 66 x 1.3125 = 86.625 Yup, it seems they get rounded up as well Glad to contribute, numbers are slippery sometimes. Have you updated the OP with current numbers? Thanks again for putting this all together. Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 973	Posted - 2013.05.14 06:15:00 - [8] - Quote Solarisjock wrote: simplest solution i see would be a 25-50% increase to fitting cost of weapons on a logi suit. this would make it much harder to fit. it would not be totaly gimped in a combat role, as a proto SMG or other secondary (maybe a shotty? not sure on the PG?CPU of those top of my head) but would prevent them from using the proto/advanced light weapons with out the sacrifice of EHP. in addition to that i would not see a simliar fitting bonus to support items, say 15-30% off the top (additive to skills) to things like nanohives/needles/uplinks/reppers etc. This would let the logi keep the epic tank, not be totally defenseless, and carry the needed gear to play its intended role the best. Biggest issue i see is the effect it would have on Amarr logi as they can fit 2 weapons. Those two changes, copmbined with the 2% per level bonus to Assault suits i think would fix most of the issues with out the EPIC NERF HAMMER OF DOOM onto anyone role/class. Credit of this idea goes to a corp mate, i just fleshed it out a little and posted it. Please respond to post #107, while it wasn't written as a reply to this I think the questions therein should be answered for this idea as well.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 975	Posted - 2013.05.14 11:25:00 - [9] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Eskel Bondfree wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: However, what I can see for myself is that the Caldari logi could fill all its slots and sacrifice very little except for price, I'm not sure if that is or is not a problem, it's just a suggestion in case it is. You see, that is exactly why I think the logi suit in general (disregarding the caldari bonus) is a bit too good when fitted straight for combat. Let me lay down some more numbers to compare the caldari assault and logi in terms of fitting. Let's assume max skills for this, and we start of at: Assault: 390 CPU/78 PG, Logi: 507 CPU/101 PG We already know: fitting 4 shield externders on the assault and 5 externders on the logi leaves both with almost equal EHP: Assault: 703 (553 shield/150 armor), Logi: 700 (588 shield/112 armor) Substracting fitting costs for the externders (cost 54/11 each), we are down to: Assault: 174 CPU/34 PG, Logi: 237 CPU/46 PG Assume both are also fitting a duvolle AR (should cost 77/10 at max skills) their remaining fitting capacities are: Assault: 97 CPU/24 PG and 3 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. And if you take into account that the logi has 5 HP/s built in reps, for which the assault needs to fit an extra complex armor repper (costs 45/11), both are standing at: Assault: 52 CPU/13 PG and 2 lows, Logi: 160 CPU/36 PG and 4 lows. That's the problem right there, because if you ask me, giving up the side arm and a tad mobility makes up for that large fitting bonus any time. And these numbers apply similar to the gallente suits, which have the same numbers with an inverted high/low slot layout, and to the minmatar (where the CPU/PG difference is a little bit smaller). A few notes here (some of them questions) Are the SP totals needed to hit required/max skills for both of these suits equal? What is the ISK cost disparity between the two fits listed? How do the above change if each suit/fit fills the rest of it's available slots? What about the Minmatar 1 HP/s built in rep bonus on the Assault? How does the inclusion of the +25% shield recharge rate effect this comparison (please include it as it is the counter part to the 5 HP/s Logi bonus that you have already included). Enhanced Shield Recharger; 1 High Powered slot; 60 CPU, 3,615 ISK How does inclusion of the Scan Precision differential effect your comparison? Basic Precision Enhancer; 1 High Powered slot, 15 CPU, 825 ISK. <-- This is the mod required to equalize with the Assault base value, note that as a % based mod an Assault suit running the same thing would gain more benefit. Basic Cardiac Regulator; 1 Low Power slot, 5 CPU, 4 PG, 720 ISK or Basic Kinetic Catalyzer, 1 Low Power slot, 15 CPU, 10 PG, 675 ISK One of these mods is required by a Logi to compensate for that "tad mobility". Either mod will give an excess in it's related state and a remaining shortfall in another, resulting approximation of equalized movement is one mod. Please replace the AR in your example fittings with each other Light Weapon, then assess sidearm value. Looking forward to seeing your response to each of these items. Cheers, Cross EDIT: here's CCP Remnant on the subject, of suit roles. I assume you were aware that he can't actually legitimately complete his little experiment, because the logi can't stack 5 shield extenders to match the Assault AND use a Shield Recharger module. None of the biotics will actually fix the base movement speed anyhow. Of course, you might possibly need to add Regulators to approximate a delay change. I'd actually be fine with assaults having the better delay stats across the board, but I assume that's not nerf-batty enough for detractors. Yep, I always like to ask rather than state when I can just in case someone sees something I haven't but that's pretty much the point if you plug in mods to bring the stats of the Logi in line with the base stats of the Assault and then compare what's left the differences (such as they are) seem negligible. I'd still be interested to see someone post fits they think break this assessment but without using the AR I haven't encountered an example yet. If that remains the case then it's pretty much a given that it's not the dropsuit in question that's the issue. (Two notes; 1. The Cal Logi could likely use a light down scale of it's racial bonus and the Amarr a light to very light buff of it's stats to bring the 4 racial logi types in line with each other. 2. The balance issue identified by objections to "slayer logi' is not a result of one factor and as such needs a nuanced resolution not swinging the nerf hammer. If some Mercs are dead set on QQing until the nerf hammer comes out then all I have to say is the AR is part of the current problem and they should keep that in mind when QQing for nerfs.)
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1059	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:20:00 - [10] - Quote @Eskel Bondfree Re: Post #135 Yes I'm actually asking, even if I think I know the answers to things I still like to get additional input and I want to say upfront thanks for responding. Now on to the line by line Skill Points The SP to run the specific suit is equal this is true, the SP to run a fully proto fit most certainly is not equal. If one assumes a logi suit being used for a pure slayer build then that does bring down the SP cost but when you include all the mods required to normalize the logi suit base stats with those naturally built into the assault. For a true comparison this must be included as the assumptive dismissal of relevant suit factors is poor practice. Everyone has unique play styles (to some degree) and these stats are used as part of balance by CCP, if any stat is truly meaningless then it falls on CCP to improve the mechanics of that stat to make it functional and relevant not upon the player base to simply ignore it outright. Biotics and scanner See above, when making direct comparisons stat normalization matters. Quote: The logi has still more to work with, while trading lower shield regeneration for its armor repair and giving up the side arm and 6% strafe speed (I still call it a tad, because not everyone's play style evolves around crazy strafe patterns). I actually agree here but again I don't believe this can be trivialized. Not all play styles use it, in the same way not all play styles fail to use it. That aspect cuts both ways and as such remains relevant because the question isn't "is the logi suit better for slayer play for certain specific people/play styles". In a similar vein the sidearm is a non-trivial sacrifice, some slayers I know don't use their sidearms but more of them most certainly do. Even beyond that an assault suit can be used for light weapon based AV by fitting the correct light weapon and the user will retain all other utility of that suit, however a logi suit used in the same way becomes completely vulnerable to infantry as it possesses no sidearm to fall back upon. When considering the value of having a suit unlocked over focusing on one specific situation (even if that situation is primary) doesn't really tell the whole story and as such is flawed. ISK Here I think is where we differ most greatly. The price of fits, mods etc must be taken into account as it is most certainly part of the balancing paradigm. Assuming the lack of meaning for ISK also assumes unlimited use of pure proto which CCP has expressly stated they do not want. Further even if one were to presume that the ISK stagnation you describe is coming that to me is the a mechanical flaw in it's own right and really should be balanced around, rather it should be directly addressed. The whole game becomes quite broken if we eliminate all economic considerations from the playing field, all clones and clone packs from PC become free, dropping 300 proto tanks into a match and losing them doesn't matter. A single Merc burning 50 pure proto fits ceases to have any "bite" beyond e-peening for stats. New Eden is driven by economics, and while I'm not saying the system or situation is perfect it is there and it's not something that can simply be disregarded out of hand. The AR I agree it's not likely to go anywhere and while I don't use it much I'm not even suggesting that it should be removed. However the point remains that if the AR is the key to the problem then it's not the logi suit which is broken. Nerfing other game aspects to balance around something else causing problems is bad practice. If the swarm launcher has bad pathing you don't nerf the eHP of vehicles, you fix the pathing on the swarm launcher. Conclusion Now that I've gotten done quibbling over details I wanted to thank you for a clear and well thought out post. I'm sorry my reply has been late in coming and I further want to reiterate that I do think the Cal Logi needs a but of a tone down as compared to the other Logi suits, but I'm of the mind that adjusting the racial bonus would be enough. The Assault suits also have, in some cases, underwhelming racial buffs and that needs looked at as well. Those changes may not be enough to fully fine tune balance but in my view they're enough to warrant their own change and see where things stand after (sweeping changes tend to be poor balance practice in my experience). Cheers, Cross ps ~ CCP has confirmed more than one bug in the current hit detection protocols as well as an occlusion bug which causes splash/explosion damage to only apply sporadically. In addition there is a but which causes Mass Driver rounds and grenades to at times simply not detonate. There are also some bugs in the application of damage from OBs. All of these are relevant to the battlefield and to the hp balance between shields and armor as well as the over all meta of gear on the battlefield. We may see shield tanking take a hit game wide when these bugs are resolved. I'd also like to note that I say this as an armor tanker so I'm not trying to "protect my build" or some such.