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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 14598	Posted - 2015.01.13 07:23:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, we will be implementing the following change to Skill Point calculations 1) Two formulas, one for New Players and one for Veteran Players. The New Players will be awarded more SP per BattleSecond and less per War Point, the reverse for Veterans. Now Ceterans have a higher upside, but they need to do something in battle so AFKing will be rather worthless for Veterans. New Players will not be stuck in a situation they can't get out of, while they learn the game. Attributes: New Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = A (integer) Veteran Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = B (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = C (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = D (integer) 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay Attributes: War Point Threshold = T (WP) War Point Diminisher = P (%) 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 5334	Posted - 2015.01.13 07:28:00 - [2] - Quote Pretty excited to see how this can address problems for both the NPE and AFK exploit behaviors. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 18278	Posted - 2015.01.13 07:35:00 - [3] - Quote After rolling a few alts I have to wager that 12 million SP is veteran enough. By then even with badly spent SP you should be able to be still rather effective in at least one role or two. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
LAVALLOIS Nash 426	Posted - 2015.01.13 07:39:00 - [4] - Quote I like the idea as a solution to prevent AFKing by making it worthless, but I just want to add, chasing SP is not the biggest reward or motivator. ISK is. Winning it or losing it motives people to do things. If this goes though, ISK payments should be better indexed to effort. Right now, the rewards are better for going 10-0 than for going 0-10. Except the guy who went 10-0 was up against under matched opponents and didn't sweat it, whears the guy who went 0-10 put alot of effort in, and also lost 10 suits. So if SP is adjusted other metrics for payment not tied to WP should be considered. there have been matches where I pushed hard in a losing game, lost 10 suits, and got 70,000ISK for my effort. Trust me, I was not as motivated for several matches afterwards. I just figured since you want to fix AFKing, you should look at one of the root causes, which is a system that rewards numbers instead of effort and hard work.
Iria Gren Liquid Swords 78	Posted - 2015.01.13 07:42:00 - [5] - Quote 21 mill sp scrub here(lots of passive since beta) wp minimum threshold should be less in ambush than in skirmish and domination shorter game with fewer opportunity for wp.
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 549	Posted - 2015.01.13 07:53:00 - [6] - Quote While I don't feel qualified to give reasonable numbers, I like the effort being taken to discourage AFK actions and helping new players.
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1142	Posted - 2015.01.13 07:59:00 - [7] - Quote Not understand a formula, can anyone explain? ((( Please support fair play!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 14604	Posted - 2015.01.13 08:00:00 - [8] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: I like the idea as a solution to prevent AFKing by making it worthless, but I just want to add, chasing SP is not the biggest reward or motivator. ISK is. Winning it or losing it motives people to do things. If this goes though, ISK payments should be better indexed to effort. Right now, the rewards are better for going 10-0 than for going 0-10. Except the guy who went 10-0 was up against under matched opponents and didn't sweat it, whears the guy who went 0-10 put alot of effort in, and also lost 10 suits. So if SP is adjusted other metrics for payment not tied to WP should be considered. there have been matches where I pushed hard in a losing game, lost 10 suits, and got 70,000ISK for my effort. Trust me, I was not as motivated for several matches afterwards. I just figured since you want to fix AFKing, you should look at one of the root causes, which is a system that rewards numbers instead of effort and hard work. Many afk for SP, others for ISK. I am trying to eliminate both as well as figure out a way to make winning rewarding, but trying hard and losing, not the end of the world. It's not an easy problem. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

voidfaction Nos Nothi 948	Posted - 2015.01.13 08:03:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4173	Posted - 2015.01.13 08:09:00 - [10] - Quote Looks like some great stuff and solves the age old of problem of trying to head off AFKing being something that hurts new players. I would start low with the minimum WP threshold like 100 to 300 WP, see how it works, and then go from there. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

LAVALLOIS Nash 426	Posted - 2015.01.13 08:55:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Many afk for SP, others for ISK. I am trying to eliminate both as well as figure out a way to make winning rewarding, but trying hard and losing, not the end of the world. It's not an easy problem. Yeah I understand. Any metric that could be used (distance covered, damaged caused, ect) could be subject to abuse if someone figures out how to game the formula. Its also the question of not wanting to reward failure. I get that too. I dont want to derail your thread into a thread about ISK rates, so i wont mention that any further. I dont think the idea is bad, as I have no problem with paying AFKers nothing. ill have to reserve further judgement for when the feature is introduced to see how it pans out.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6360	Posted - 2015.01.13 09:03:00 - [12] - Quote Put a x100-1000 multiplier on WP rewards for ISK. If you're simply breathing on the battlefield you get a consolation prize of 10k ISK. this should be implemented for veterans above the 10m mark. SP rewards based on WP for vets is excellent. Please make it happen. But for ISK rewards, keeping it simple keeps it difficult to deny the enemy a payout by fielding the most cheapsh** things you can. The more simple the equation the less variables there are to screw up the game. But separating vets from newbies is a good thing on the rewards scale. One of the problems with the rewards is payouts do not escalate with experience and skill. They also fail to punish people who should know better for screwing off. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2210	Posted - 2015.01.13 09:13:00 - [13] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Looks like some great stuff and solves the age old of problem of trying to head off AFKing being something that hurts new players. I would start low with the minimum WP threshold like 100 to 300 WP, see how it works, and then go from there. Agreed. We want this to a gradual step change to players can get used to it. CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com
voidfaction Nos Nothi 949	Posted - 2015.01.13 09:33:00 - [14] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Looks like some great stuff and solves the age old of problem of trying to head off AFKing being something that hurts new players. I would start low with the minimum WP threshold like 100 to 300 WP, see how it works, and then go from there. Agreed. We want this to a gradual step change to players can get used to it. Minimum 100-300, lol Did I miss read it. I thought the minimum WP threshold is for vets not noobs. Drop 8 uplinks and see you when the match is over. Later....Bye....Cya.....Enjoy your game. The 800 i suggested is a joke for any logi. Send out the memo if you want to afk or not try then deploy a logi and drop eq then sit in the red line. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1018	Posted - 2015.01.13 09:35:00 - [15] - Quote voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. In 50 clone ambush? Really? But anyway, stating the obvious here, the threshold has to be different for different game modes. CCP Rattati wrote: 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay I am very curious, though, what you consider this "next to impossible" amount of WP to be... Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
voidfaction Nos Nothi 949	Posted - 2015.01.13 09:53:00 - [16] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. In 50 clone ambush? Really? But anyway, stating the obvious here, the threshold has to be different for different game modes. I don't play ambush or dom so my figure is based on what I can get without trying in skirmish using all bpo gear. So yes they might need to be different figures for different game modes. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
sammus420 Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 440	Posted - 2015.01.13 09:54:00 - [17] - Quote Make dust track the distance your character moves during the course of a match. If it's under X and you have less than Y kills, no SP and no ISK for you. Is it really that hard?
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6361	Posted - 2015.01.13 09:56:00 - [18] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. In 50 clone ambush? Really? But anyway, stating the obvious here, the threshold has to be different for different game modes. CCP Rattati wrote: 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay I am very curious, though, what you consider this "next to impossible" amount of WP to be... Numbers significantly higher than 2500 are deeply hard to hut without being a logi spammer. Anything above 3000 is impossible without boosting or being in the top 0.5% native shooter badass player category. Since they are outliers they should not be used as a balancing factor. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 949	Posted - 2015.01.13 09:56:00 - [19] - Quote sammus420 wrote: Make dust track the distance your character moves during the course of a match. If it's under X and you have less than Y kills, no SP and no ISK for you. Is it really that hard? Well that would be 1 good way to get rid of snipers If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1019	Posted - 2015.01.13 10:00:00 - [20] - Quote sammus420 wrote: Make dust track the distance your character moves during the course of a match. If it's under X and you have less than Y kills, no SP and no ISK for you. Is it really that hard? Shouldn't be hard at all, considering that they already track the distance for one of the daily missions. Meaningful, on the other hand, is another thing entirely.... Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"

Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1019	Posted - 2015.01.13 10:01:00 - [21] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. In 50 clone ambush? Really? But anyway, stating the obvious here, the threshold has to be different for different game modes. CCP Rattati wrote: 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay I am very curious, though, what you consider this "next to impossible" amount of WP to be... Numbers significantly higher than 2500 are deeply hard to hut without being a logi spammer. Anything above 3000 is impossible without boosting or being in the top 0.5% native shooter badass player category. Since they are outliers they should not be used as a balancing factor. "Logi spammer" = playing as a logi, in your opinion, then? Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
voidfaction Nos Nothi 949	Posted - 2015.01.13 10:02:00 - [22] - Quote So now vets will no long be able to just guard a objective because if they do and nobody ever comes and attacks it they get nothing. So no more tactics the game is being pushed to you run and gun or you get nothing. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 538	Posted - 2015.01.13 10:19:00 - [23] - Quote voidfaction wrote: So now vets will no long be able to just guard a objective because if they do and nobody ever comes and attacks it they get nothing. So no more tactics the game is being pushed to you run and gun or you get nothing. I hardly think you will stand by an objective (guarding it) and nobody will attack it in an entire match. If they don't attack, they probably already captured the majority of the points and you will surely loose the match if you stay there. Besides, now we also get guardian points for actions close to objectives, so it should be possible to guard and save up at least 200WP. And I agree the minimum requirement should be low initially.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 538	Posted - 2015.01.13 10:31:00 - [24] - Quote Unless I read it wrong, I am worried about the sudden jump from being classified as "New Player" and "Veteran". If your earnings suddenly drop like a rock, just because you are now a "Veteran", it might **** off players. I would prefer if the system was more dynamic with the amount of lifetime SP a character has, so a player linearly grows from being reliant on passive SP to active WP. I.e: Not 11,999,999 SP = New Player 12,000,000 SP = Veteran
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6361	Posted - 2015.01.13 10:43:00 - [25] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: "Logi spammer" = playing as a logi, in your opinion, then? I need to figure out a better descriptor. Playing as a logi is an easy way to rack up WP. So does AV during vehicle spam which generally leaves scouts, assaults and HMG heavies in the cold. Good assaults, scouts and HMGs realistically can slam out between 1000-1500 warpoints from being particularly productive between kills and hacks. I would set the diminishing return threshold at 1500 and absolute cap at 3000, with RAPID diminishment between 1500 and 2000. That way the 2k-3k bracket holds the lowest value per WP. Ambush will naturally enjoy lower payouts but for fast matches which are quick and only require killing people should be forced to pay similarly for two ten minute ambushes as you would get for a 20-25 minute dom or skirm. Not the same ISK pay layout. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 949	Posted - 2015.01.13 10:50:00 - [26] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: voidfaction wrote: So now vets will no long be able to just guard a objective because if they do and nobody ever comes and attacks it they get nothing. So no more tactics the game is being pushed to you run and gun or you get nothing. I hardly think you will stand by an objective (guarding it) and nobody will attack it in an entire match. If they don't attack, they probably already captured the majority of the points and you will surely loose the match if you stay there. Besides, now we also get guardian points for actions close to objectives, so it should be possible to guard and save up at least 200WP. And I agree the minimum requirement should be low initially. I have been in plenty of skirmish matches where i stayed at an objective and had nobody attack it and we won the match. You know the matches when you have the proto stompers on your team that redline the other team. I stay back waiting on the scout like me that will run to the enemy home point to try and pull the enemy back. Why does it need to be so low for vets? most the vets are pussies in proto squads getting all the WP anyway. Set it high so if you don't run proto you get nothing. So many Vets that only run proto in squads pushing the noobs to quit so set it high to help push out the casual player that plays pubs solo in std fits too. match making does not work so until they can get balanced matches this idea is just stupid. They need to get match making or meta lockouts before they do this because all it will do is give the rich proto stomper corps that already cheated PC payouts even more ways to grief other players. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 18279	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:06:00 - [27] - Quote BTW Rattati when you do implement this I STRONGLY URGE UI to be added concerning this. A pop up of being recognized as a veteran at least and how contributions will be shifting the SP payouts. And a message on the EOM in the event you didn't earn enough warppoints to reap rewards at the end. Based on my playthroughs and reading other peoples scores; 250 wps min threshold for doing stuff sounds about right for the average player in terms of effort. Some matches its very difficult to obtain if the other team is stomping pretty hard and certain roles do not excel at earning WP; AV most primary. At 250 most roles should be able to earn their keep. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 701	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:14:00 - [28] - Quote Isnt it mostly new player alts that are AFK? All the starter Swarm fits i see kneeling up and down/ running in circles usually are in NPC corps. Veterans are more certainly more likely to stat boost to abuse the system with their main characters to gain SP, and AFK farm for isk the rest of the time. Go 0-0 with 0 wp you won't break 1,000 SP. And now with increased ISK payouts, i imagine there will be alot more AFKing going around. Sure i'll take more SP per warpoint, and as long as it doesn't nerf my passive SP accruall I don't mind losing some per second in battle. Still, we have to be careful in not affording a disporportionate amount of SP to vet Logis and the like. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 949	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:14:00 - [29] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: BTW Rattati when you do implement this I STRONGLY URGE UI to be added concerning this. A pop up of being recognized as a veteran at least and how contributions will be shifting the SP payouts. And a message on the EOM in the event you didn't earn enough warppoints to reap rewards at the end. Based on my playthroughs and reading other peoples scores; 250 wps min threshold for doing stuff sounds about right for the average player in terms of effort. Some matches its very difficult to obtain if the other team is stomping pretty hard and certain roles do not excel at earning WP; AV most primary. At 250 most roles should be able to earn their keep. Should be able to get that sitting in the redline the entire match If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 701	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:18:00 - [30] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Unless I read it wrong, I am worried about the sudden jump from being classified as "New Player" and "Veteran". If your earnings suddenly drop like a rock, just because you are now a "Veteran", it might **** off players. I would prefer if the system was more dynamic with the amount of lifetime SP a character has, so a player linearly grows from being reliant on passive SP to active WP. I.e: Not 11,999,999 SP = New Player 12,000,000 SP = Veteran Staggered over time makes alot of sense.maybe 1) 0-5 million Rrookie 2) 5-8 million Seasoned 3) 8-10 million Vet 4) 10-12 million Seasoned Vet 5) 12 million + Experienced Vet Something like this? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

Kain Spero Internal Error. 4173	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:24:00 - [31] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Unless I read it wrong, I am worried about the sudden jump from being classified as "New Player" and "Veteran". If your earnings suddenly drop like a rock, just because you are now a "Veteran", it might **** off players. I would prefer if the system was more dynamic with the amount of lifetime SP a character has, so a player linearly grows from being reliant on passive SP to active WP. I.e: Not 11,999,999 SP = New Player 12,000,000 SP = Veteran Staggered over time makes alot of sense.maybe 1) 0-5 million Rrookie 2) 5-8 million Seasoned 3) 8-10 million Vet 4) 10-12 million Seasoned Vet 5) 12 million + Experienced Vet Something like this? Really I think the threshold could be pretty low to go from New Player to "Veteran", so not much need for such a granular system. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
voidfaction Nos Nothi 949	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:26:00 - [32] - Quote Will the minimum value be static or dynamic based on time in match? You know how often MM (Scotty) wants to put you in a match the is more than half over or on the losing side of a proto stomp redlined. Is MM going to be fixed so all matches begin from the start and never put in matches already in play? Sorry, I really think this is a great idea but timing is wrong. MM needs fixed first. Maybe if MM did not put people against the proto stompers they would maybe try and not just AFK every match. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Darth-Carbonite GIO Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 1582	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:27:00 - [33] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Numbers significantly higher than 2500 are deeply hard to hut without being a logi spammer. Anything above 3000 is impossible without boosting or being in the top 0.5% native shooter badass player category. Since they are outliers they should not be used as a balancing factor. Strongly disagree on that last point. Logis are more than capable of achieving 4000-5000 WPs in a very good match, even in PC. And why focus on logis? AV users and anti vehicle pilots can get upwards of 3000 WPs during a competitive match. 4500-5000 would be a more realistic number. GIMMIE MY PINK LAZOR
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4173	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:31:00 - [34] - Quote Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Numbers significantly higher than 2500 are deeply hard to hut without being a logi spammer. Anything above 3000 is impossible without boosting or being in the top 0.5% native shooter badass player category. Since they are outliers they should not be used as a balancing factor. Strongly disagree on that last point. Logis are more than capable of achieving 4000-5000 WPs in a very good match, even in PC. And why focus on logis? AV users and anti vehicle pilots can get upwards of 3000 WPs during a competitive match. 4500-5000 would be a more realistic number. I'd have to agree about the 3000 mark. I think the diminishing returns definitely shouldn't start until 3000 WP, but they start ramping up once you hit 4000. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14431	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:37:00 - [35] - Quote How will the system determine who is a new player and who is a veteran? Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
Darth-Carbonite GIO Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 1582	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:37:00 - [36] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Numbers significantly higher than 2500 are deeply hard to hut without being a logi spammer. Anything above 3000 is impossible without boosting or being in the top 0.5% native shooter badass player category. Since they are outliers they should not be used as a balancing factor. Strongly disagree on that last point. Logis are more than capable of achieving 4000-5000 WPs in a very good match, even in PC. And why focus on logis? AV users and anti vehicle pilots can get upwards of 3000 WPs during a competitive match. 4500-5000 would be a more realistic number. I'd have to agree about the 3000 mark. I think the diminishing returns definitely shouldn't start until 3000 WP, but they start ramping up once you hit 4000. Ramping up is reasonable, but I feel that it shouldn't hit the wall at 3000. I think some people may underestimate what is capable in a intense match, but I certainly shouldn't have to tell you that, Kain GIMMIE MY PINK LAZOR
Macchi00 LORD-BRITISH Couedic Lancer And Shields 133	Posted - 2015.01.13 11:41:00 - [37] - Quote If SP reward is not, even he should not ISK reward I love ForgeGun. I made ForgeGun montage in YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIhuGxfbjSQ
m621 zma 247	Posted - 2015.01.13 12:47:00 - [38] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. In 50 clone ambush? Really? But anyway, stating the obvious here, the threshold has to be different for different game modes. CCP Rattati wrote: 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay I am very curious, though, what you consider this "next to impossible" amount of WP to be... Well according to the daily challenges anything up to 20k should be achievable in a single battle...
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 584	Posted - 2015.01.13 13:08:00 - [39] - Quote So, basically, there will be no more SP during stomps for me. Wonderful. And yes, I've had matches where my team is stomped so hard that even 50WP became an achievement.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6366	Posted - 2015.01.13 13:10:00 - [40] - Quote I rarely hit below 250 even during a stomp. If you're new then you would be on a different value scale than myself. I literally have no justifiable excuse for performance that poor even if I were solo against 16 nyain san. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 899	Posted - 2015.01.13 13:12:00 - [41] - Quote This is a good initiative and an initial WP minimum is a way to go. I'd say we have to watch out for the proto-stomp effect. I have had matches (mostly skirmish), where all points are captured very early on (within the 1st minute), and then they are held by the opposing team until the end. In this scenario, after the initial slaughter, most people hang back, take some potshots , but don't really gather many war points as they are all redlined. They may try to do so (I always try as I'm a lone wolf) , and in doing so, lose even more suits but don't necessarily rack up WP. It would be delicate to punish these people who are in fact trying, but not necessarily earning WP, and are actively losing suits. What would then happen is if people figure out how the system works, once they realise there is no hope of a minimum WP, they will simply leave the game , as hanging around doesn't benefit them, and this wouldn't improve the game for anyone. Even a proto-stomper would like to play against other people I'm sure... and if they aren't killing people they aren't getting their minimum either.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1681	Posted - 2015.01.13 13:22:00 - [42] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: After rolling a few alts I have to wager that 12 million SP is veteran enough. By then even with badly spent SP you should be able to be still rather effective in at least one role or two. Agreed. Somewhere between 10M and 20M SP.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1682	Posted - 2015.01.13 13:40:00 - [43] - Quote voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. That'd come out to 16 sniper kills, which would be very high for even a great sniper in an Ambush match. We should differentiate Min(WP) by play mode, then look to historically low WP functions/roles (e.g. sniping, reconnaissance, transport pilot, etc) to come up with reasonable expectations. A Sniper in Ambush, for example, might end an "active" session with only 5 takedowns and 250WP.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 750	Posted - 2015.01.13 15:27:00 - [44] - Quote Min WP threshold should be equated based off median team score which would allow it to more accurately respond to varying battle scenarios. Perhaps even a combination of mean and median calculations, perhaps preferencing the lower of the two. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 954	Posted - 2015.01.13 16:12:00 - [45] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. That'd come out to 16 sniper kills, which would be very high for even a great sniper in an Ambush match. We should differentiate Min(WP) by play mode, then look to historically low WP functions/roles (e.g. sniping, reconnaissance, transport pilot, etc) to come up with reasonable expectations. A Sniper in Ambush, for example, might end an "active" session with only 5 takedowns and 250WP. As an aside, too low a Min(WP) ceiling will guarantee that players leave match in advance of a stomp. Just wrapped up a round of Ambush against Nyain San. On our side, first place ended the match with 230WP, second place, 155, and third, 105. Scores like these can be observed all day everyday for those on the receiving end of a stomp. We can't penalize players like these; getting stomped is a sh!t enough gameplay experience as is. yeah, the sniper would have to come out of the red line and maybe help the team a little. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1686	Posted - 2015.01.13 16:21:00 - [46] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: Min WP threshold should be equated based off median team score which would allow it to more accurately respond to varying battle scenarios. Perhaps even a combination of mean and median calculations, perhaps preferencing the lower of the two. ^ Bingo. voidfaction wrote: yeah, the sniper would have to come out of the red line and maybe help the team a little. The sniper is as legitimate a role as the next. We should no doubt tease him, but labeling him AFK and docking his pay is a 'bit much.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 955	Posted - 2015.01.13 16:34:00 - [47] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Bright Steel wrote: Min WP threshold should be equated based off median team score which would allow it to more accurately respond to varying battle scenarios. Perhaps even a combination of mean and median calculations, perhaps preferencing the lower of the two. ^ Bingo. voidfaction wrote: yeah, the sniper would have to come out of the red line and maybe help the team a little. The sniper is as legitimate a role as the next. We should certainly tease him, but labeling him AFK and docking his pay seems a 'bit much :-) Never said sniper was not a legitimate role. I am a sniper when i need to be. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2015.01.13 16:53:00 - [48] - Quote What is your target ? Will vets have more/less or the same SP payout as now? While at that, could you please remove the 10k+ sp in a single match missions? So far I think I've only gotten very close to the 10k but I had one mission with 17k .... never going to happen without exploits. Even though I play logi! Calculating mean/median leaves people in the cold who join relatively late in the game. Also consider if proto-stomp team is on your side... they will rack up points while you might net next to nothing thus being labeled "afk/useless" and you get no payout at all?
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1020	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:20:00 - [49] - Quote pumping up wrote: What is your target ? Will vets have more/less or the same SP payout as now? While at that, could you please remove the 10k+ sp in a single match missions? So far I think I've only gotten very close to the 10k but I had one mission with 17k .... never going to happen without exploits. Not true. Is quite doable, not easy, not going to happen every game, but is doable without exploits. Unless playing to win is an exploit. Now, is it doable by every player in the game? Probably not. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 18287	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:28:00 - [50] - Quote Setting it too high runs the real risk of not awarding a team for anything. I have played games where nobody scored over 800 before. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked

Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3402	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:28:00 - [51] - Quote I'm no genius, so I won't be proposing any numbers to fit your variables, but I wanted to comment on this: Quote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. I think this is a very bad idea, albeit with good intentions. There are so many reasons why a veteran would have low warpoints, you couldn't possibly list them all, just to mention a few: -Joined the game after it started, less time to rack up WPs -Trying a new playstyle, unskilled, so less WPs -Using a gimmick fitting for fun, won't earn as many WPs -Protostomp, unable to leave redline without instantly dying, therefore no WPs So you are basically punishing people if they aren't in a perfectly balanced game, using their best fitting. It is especially bad in the protostomp and joined late scenarios because it is totally and completely outside of the player's ability to do anything, and they will have literally wasted their time and ISK for nothing. Unless you made that minimum threshold 1 WP, it's a bad idea. Seeing the comments before mine, recommending 800 WP, I can tell I wouldn't be playing the game anymore. SP Sinks? Fixed.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 956	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:30:00 - [52] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: pumping up wrote: What is your target ? Will vets have more/less or the same SP payout as now? While at that, could you please remove the 10k+ sp in a single match missions? So far I think I've only gotten very close to the 10k but I had one mission with 17k .... never going to happen without exploits. Not true. Is quite doable, not easy, not going to happen every game, but is doable without exploits. Unless playing to win is an exploit. Now, is it doable by every player in the game? Probably not. It's all about Boosters Boosters Boosters. Spend your money and you can be a winner too If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1020	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:37:00 - [53] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: pumping up wrote: What is your target ? Will vets have more/less or the same SP payout as now? While at that, could you please remove the 10k+ sp in a single match missions? So far I think I've only gotten very close to the 10k but I had one mission with 17k .... never going to happen without exploits. Not true. Is quite doable, not easy, not going to happen every game, but is doable without exploits. Unless playing to win is an exploit. Now, is it doable by every player in the game? Probably not. It's all about Boosters Boosters Boosters. Spend your money and you can be a winner too Oh, doing it with boosters is easy, I meant without. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:42:00 - [54] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: voidfaction wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: pumping up wrote: What is your target ? Will vets have more/less or the same SP payout as now? While at that, could you please remove the 10k+ sp in a single match missions? So far I think I've only gotten very close to the 10k but I had one mission with 17k .... never going to happen without exploits. Not true. Is quite doable, not easy, not going to happen every game, but is doable without exploits. Unless playing to win is an exploit. Now, is it doable by every player in the game? Probably not. It's all about Boosters Boosters Boosters. Spend your money and you can be a winner too Oh, doing it with boosters would be easy, I meant without. Sorry, I tried really hard so far but it just -seems- impossible to me. Though I saw people abusing shooting for 5k WP maybe those are enough for that.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1020	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:43:00 - [55] - Quote pumping up wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: voidfaction wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: pumping up wrote: What is your target ? Will vets have more/less or the same SP payout as now? While at that, could you please remove the 10k+ sp in a single match missions? So far I think I've only gotten very close to the 10k but I had one mission with 17k .... never going to happen without exploits. Not true. Is quite doable, not easy, not going to happen every game, but is doable without exploits. Unless playing to win is an exploit. Now, is it doable by every player in the game? Probably not. It's all about Boosters Boosters Boosters. Spend your money and you can be a winner too Oh, doing it with boosters would be easy, I meant without. Sorry, I tried really hard so far but it just -seems- impossible to me. Though I saw people abusing shooting for 5k WP maybe those are enough for that. Abusing shooting? What? Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Iria Gren Liquid Swords 79	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:43:00 - [56] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: Min WP threshold should be equated based off median team score which would allow it to more accurately respond to varying battle scenarios. Perhaps even a combination of mean and median calculations, perhaps preferencing the lower of the two. so how about ten percent of the median value of all non zero wp results for your team ie if wp == 0 no rewards if wp =< 10/(Twp/{T-0wpT})
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:45:00 - [57] - Quote Quote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Sorry, I tried really hard so far but it just -seems- impossible to me. Though I saw people abusing shooting for 5k WP maybe those are enough for that. Abusing shooting? What? No, that was worded poorly. Someone abused the game to rack up 5k WP. (No kills no deaths on both sides - with same corp)
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1020	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:58:00 - [58] - Quote pumping up wrote: Quote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Sorry, I tried really hard so far but it just -seems- impossible to me. Though I saw people abusing shooting for 5k WP maybe those are enough for that. Abusing shooting? What? No, that was worded poorly. Someone abused the game to rack up 5k WP. (No kills no deaths on both sides - with same corp) Yes, ok, I get you now. Sure, there are people who do that. But high WP doesn't mean that someone was exploiting, those cases are the minority (at least in my experience). The so called impossible 3k+, 4k+, 5k+ etc. WP games are far from impossible without exploiting, but like I said, it's not going to happen every game. You generally speaking need a game that lasts long enough, so ambush and skirmish are pretty much out, a domination game in which the point is highly contested and is held considerable lengths of time by each team is where you see that kind of WP, usually. And they are not just logis, as AV and vehicles, or some combination of the three are generally the ones with the highest WP from active games. I have seen assaults and scouts pull off 3k, 4k WP matches too, though that requires them to do things other than "see red dot. shoot." Which is another reason some blanket minimum WP requirement is a bad idea. The length of the match should make a difference in determining what sort of WP someone should have generated if they were at least trying to contribute. Quite honestly, I am more ok with the losers who spawn in and toss a few uplinks in the spawn area before going afk getting rewards, than someone who got ****** by the matchmaking, but still tried, being ripped off. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 754	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:00:00 - [59] - Quote Iria Gren wrote: Bright Steel wrote: Min WP threshold should be equated based off median team score which would allow it to more accurately respond to varying battle scenarios. Perhaps even a combination of mean and median calculations, perhaps preferencing the lower of the two. so how about ten percent of the median value of all non zero wp results for your team ie if wp == 0 no rewards if wp =< 10/(Twp/{T-0wpT}) Yes, the mean/median would be your reference point for the match and we can adjust from there as we see fit. Not sure 10% is the right number. Proto squad all putting up 1500+ WP makes the mean (average) go way up but then the median (middle) of 8th place comes in. The lower of the two figures would be your point of reference. How often is a "vet" not in the too 8? Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:03:00 - [60] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: pumping up wrote: Quote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Sorry, I tried really hard so far but it just -seems- impossible to me. Though I saw people abusing shooting for 5k WP maybe those are enough for that. Abusing shooting? What? No, that was worded poorly. Someone abused the game to rack up 5k WP. (No kills no deaths on both sides - with same corp) Yes, ok, I get you now. Sure, there are people who do that. But high WP doesn't mean that someone was exploiting, those cases are the minority (at least in my experience). The so called impossible 3k+, 4k+, 5k+ etc. WP games are far from impossible without exploiting, but like I said, it's not going to happen every game. I take your word for it. I just wanted to emphasize that the rewards shouldn't be set in the masters (boosters) league. The reward for that mission was a decryptor or two :(

pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:04:00 - [61] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: How often is a "vet" not in the too 8? How often do you personally join a game in the last 3-5 minutes?
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1020	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:06:00 - [62] - Quote pumping up wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: pumping up wrote: Quote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Sorry, I tried really hard so far but it just -seems- impossible to me. Though I saw people abusing shooting for 5k WP maybe those are enough for that. Abusing shooting? What? No, that was worded poorly. Someone abused the game to rack up 5k WP. (No kills no deaths on both sides - with same corp) Yes, ok, I get you now. Sure, there are people who do that. But high WP doesn't mean that someone was exploiting, those cases are the minority (at least in my experience). The so called impossible 3k+, 4k+, 5k+ etc. WP games are far from impossible without exploiting, but like I said, it's not going to happen every game. I take your word for it. I just wanted to emphasize that the rewards shouldn't be set in the masters (boosters) league. The reward for that mission was a decryptor or two :( I feel your pain, I only get offered keys (the rare time I do) for activating instant boosters :( Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
voidfaction Nos Nothi 956	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:06:00 - [63] - Quote pumping up wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: voidfaction wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: pumping up wrote: What is your target ? Will vets have more/less or the same SP payout as now? While at that, could you please remove the 10k+ sp in a single match missions? So far I think I've only gotten very close to the 10k but I had one mission with 17k .... never going to happen without exploits. Not true. Is quite doable, not easy, not going to happen every game, but is doable without exploits. Unless playing to win is an exploit. Now, is it doable by every player in the game? Probably not. It's all about Boosters Boosters Boosters. Spend your money and you can be a winner too Oh, doing it with boosters would be easy, I meant without. Sorry, I tried really hard so far but it just -seems- impossible to me. Though I saw people abusing shooting for 5k WP maybe those are enough for that. Sure some of the really high SP missions are possible without boosters but I would say the point is to get you to spend your money. It is just like the missions for activate 3 instant boosters. They want you to spend money. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 754	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:08:00 - [64] - Quote Example of pub stomp: 1) 2500 2) 2100 3) 1800 4) 1500 5) 1500 6)1300 7) 1100 8) 900 9) 850 10) 750 11) 600 12) 550 13) 500 14) 350 15) 250 16) 75 Median= 909 and mean= 1123 A vet should be easily within 50% of the lowest, being the median Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 956	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:20:00 - [65] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: Example of pub stomp: 1) 2500 2) 2100 3) 1800 4) 1500 5) 1500 6)1300 7) 1100 8) 900 9) 850 10) 750 11) 600 12) 550 13) 500 14) 350 15) 250 16) 75 Median= 909 and mean= 1123 A vet should be easily within 50% of the lowest, being the median I guess you have not seen a real pub stomp. I have been in matches were nobody on the team had over 1000. Or is your example showing the team doing the pub stomping? If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Unit-775 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 69	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:23:00 - [66] - Quote no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points ? and Scotty putting us in matches wich are neraly done ? so if a Team stomps the other and people start leaving what would i do if i get put into this match ? Quit the Match asap because its a waste of time !
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 754	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:29:00 - [67] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Bright Steel wrote: Example of pub stomp: 1) 2500 2) 2100 3) 1800 4) 1500 5) 1500 6)1300 7) 1100 8) 900 9) 850 10) 750 11) 600 12) 550 13) 500 14) 350 15) 250 16) 75 Median= 909 and mean= 1123 A vet should be easily within 50% of the lowest, being the median I guess you have not seen a real pub stomp. I have been in matches were nobody on the team had over 1000. Or is your example showing the team doing the pub stomping? This would the stomping side showing that it would work even for vets not on the stomping squad. The stompee side would have those score variations but cut in half or possible a thirds. The mean/median would still work... Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:32:00 - [68] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: voidfaction wrote: Bright Steel wrote: Example of pub stomp: 1) 2500 2) 2100 3) 1800 4) 1500 5) 1500 6)1300 7) 1100 8) 900 9) 850 10) 750 11) 600 12) 550 13) 500 14) 350 15) 250 16) 75 Median= 909 and mean= 1123 A vet should be easily within 50% of the lowest, being the median I guess you have not seen a real pub stomp. I have been in matches were nobody on the team had over 1000. Or is your example showing the team doing the pub stomping? This would the stomping side showing that it would work even for vets not on the stomping squad. The stompee side would have those score variations but cut in half or possible a thirds. The mean/median would still work... This still assumes that there are no people who are just plain bad. Not the best myself but I'm sure there are people who just CAN'T get that much WP. What about them? Also I made my char in closed beta and collected 17m sp passively - I would have been a "vet" by that standard. First 20 games or so I was surely horrible!!!
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 754	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:33:00 - [69] - Quote Unit-775 wrote: no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points ? and Scotty putting us in matches wich are neraly done ? so if a Team stomps the other and people start leaving what would i do if i get put into this match ? Quit the Match asap because its a waste of time ! An additional variable could be time in battle. Say threshold for particle battle was 500 You joined for the last 25% of match (half Sheilds) that's only 125WP for a vet. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 956	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:34:00 - [70] - Quote Unit-775 wrote: no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points ? and Scotty putting us in matches wich are neraly done ? so if a Team stomps the other and people start leaving what would i do if i get put into this match ? Quit the Match asap because its a waste of time ! I seem to get put in the same match after quiting them. 2 days ago I quit the same match 4 times in a row. Learning to use the playstation Quit Game option and playing something else works best. CCP is not going to fix match making. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout

Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 754	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:37:00 - [71] - Quote pumping up wrote: Bright Steel wrote: voidfaction wrote: Bright Steel wrote: Example of pub stomp: 1) 2500 2) 2100 3) 1800 4) 1500 5) 1500 6)1300 7) 1100 8) 900 9) 850 10) 750 11) 600 12) 550 13) 500 14) 350 15) 250 16) 75 Median= 909 and mean= 1123 A vet should be easily within 50% of the lowest, being the median I guess you have not seen a real pub stomp. I have been in matches were nobody on the team had over 1000. Or is your example showing the team doing the pub stomping? This would the stomping side showing that it would work even for vets not on the stomping squad. The stompee side would have those score variations but cut in half or possible a thirds. The mean/median would still work... This still assumes that there are no people who are just plain bad. Not the best myself but I'm sure there are people who just CAN'T get that much WP. What about them? Also I made my char in closed beta and collected 17m sp passively - I would have been a "vet" by that standard. First 20 games or so I was surely horrible!!! That is assuming a vet is classified by X amount of SP Could use MU or lifetime WP or all the above. Though I do believe WP would be the better gauge of vet status, either lifetime or battle average... Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 754	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:42:00 - [72] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Unit-775 wrote: no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points ? and Scotty putting us in matches wich are neraly done ? so if a Team stomps the other and people start leaving what would i do if i get put into this match ? Quit the Match asap because its a waste of time ! I seem to get put in the same match after quiting them. 2 days ago I quit the same match 4 times in a row. Learning to use the playstation Quit Game option and playing something else works best. CCP is not going to fix match making. Fixing match making will depend much on fixing risk/reward. If I'm up against a stomp, why will I run good gear and loose it? You could have a well balanced match, but if one side loses will to fight then you have a stomp... I've had good even fights turn into stomps cause my team lost the will to push and scattered. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 754	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:57:00 - [73] - Quote pumping up wrote: Bright Steel wrote: How often is a "vet" not in the too 8? How often do you personally join a game in the last 3-5 minutes? Referring to individuals playing full matches. See post ^ about additional variable based on time in match. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 18297	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:02:00 - [74] - Quote Guys guys guys The goal is to stop afkers not punish scrubs keep this in mind. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5739	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:10:00 - [75] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Put a x100-1000 multiplier on WP rewards for ISK. If you're simply breathing on the battlefield you get a consolation prize of 10k ISK. this should be implemented for veterans above the 10m mark. SP rewards based on WP for vets is excellent. Please make it happen. But for ISK rewards, keeping it simple keeps it difficult to deny the enemy a payout by fielding the most cheapsh** things you can. The more simple the equation the less variables there are to screw up the game. But separating vets from newbies is a good thing on the rewards scale. One of the problems with the rewards is payouts do not escalate with experience and skill. They also fail to punish people who should know better for screwing off. I wish I could like this more than once Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 958	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:10:00 - [76] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Guys guys guys The goal is to stop afkers not punish scrubs keep this in mind. It punishes scrubs like me. I did not get rich cheating the PC payouts. I don't believe in running in full proto squads in pubs even if I had the isk to do so. The proto stomps are one of the reasons I do not try in matches. You want to get rid of afkers fine but give them a reason to want to try because going into a proto stomp is not going to get them to try it is going to get them to just quit the game altogether. Fix match making to put the proto stompers with proto stompers and afkers with afkers. FIX MATCH MAKING so I want to try If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5739	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:11:00 - [77] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Guys guys guys The goal is to stop afkers not punish scrubs keep this in mind. A lot of people are scrubs because it's more profitable in pubs to scrub around than push for the win. To me it's one and the same. Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
Brush Master Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1398	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:15:00 - [78] - Quote I guess my only concern is, how hard will this hit dropship pilots who already are low on the WP boards due to the role not having as many ways to earn WP? Dust Veteran. June 2012 - ? True Logi. Flying DS from the start. @dustreports
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5739	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:15:00 - [79] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. In 50 clone ambush? Really? But anyway, stating the obvious here, the threshold has to be different for different game modes. CCP Rattati wrote: 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay I am very curious, though, what you consider this "next to impossible" amount of WP to be... In a hard fought domination it's not hard to get around 5000 WP Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
Darth-Carbonite GIO Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 1584	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:16:00 - [80] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Guys guys guys The goal is to stop afkers not punish scrubs keep this in mind. And I think this system will manage that quite handily. I'm saying the net should be thrown wide enough to benefit new players, while also properly rewarding those that achieve the entirely possible scores of 3000 - 5000. This can cater to both sides, and benefit us all while removing the undesired element of AFKing. GIMMIE MY PINK LAZOR

Darth-Carbonite GIO Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 1584	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:20:00 - [81] - Quote Brush Master wrote: I guess my only concern is, how hard will this hit dropship pilots who already are low on the WP boards due to the role not having as many ways to earn WP? I'm not sure what you're talking about. Assault dropships, while being extremely weak to AV, can achieve just as many Warpoints as your average slayer. Pretty much depends on the pilot. But if you meant ordinary dropship pilots, well, there haven't been very many incentives for them ever. GIMMIE MY PINK LAZOR
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5740	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:20:00 - [82] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Guys guys guys The goal is to stop afkers not punish scrubs keep this in mind. It punishes scrubs like me. I did not get rich cheating the PC payouts. I don't believe in running in full proto squads in pubs even if I had the isk to do so. The proto stomps are one of the reasons I do not try in matches. You want to get rid of afkers fine but give them a reason to want to try because going into a proto stomp is not going to get them to try it is going to get them to just quit the game altogether. Fix match making to put the proto stompers with proto stompers and afkers with afkers. FIX MATCH MAKING so I want to try Back in the beta days you had a LOT of crazy good players. You'd see the Imps, Zion, STB, PFBHz, etc and you knew you were in for a stomp. But you squaded up (there was actually auto squading back in those days) and did your best. I took it as a learning experience. Now people just cry and deploy solo, derping around if they assume it's going to be a difficult fight. I'm not sure I understand why a person would even turn on a FPS with that attitude. Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9208	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:24:00 - [83] - Quote What exactly is the maximum WP cap because I've gotten more than 3000 WP easily in long enough matches and Orion Definitely stays in this range in Domination and Skirmish. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1024	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:29:00 - [84] - Quote It's not hard to earn 2-3k WP if you're being useful and skilled. If you want a hard limit to prevent boosting that almost no ones reaches I'd say 7500. If you don't mind a few going over the limit and not earning extra SP I would say 5000. Personally I'd set the cap at 5k. Regarding the low limit I'd argue at least 100 WP for vets with 250WP being the highest I'd personally consider. Overlord of Broman
voidfaction Nos Nothi 959	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:32:00 - [85] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: voidfaction wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Guys guys guys The goal is to stop afkers not punish scrubs keep this in mind. It punishes scrubs like me. I did not get rich cheating the PC payouts. I don't believe in running in full proto squads in pubs even if I had the isk to do so. The proto stomps are one of the reasons I do not try in matches. You want to get rid of afkers fine but give them a reason to want to try because going into a proto stomp is not going to get them to try it is going to get them to just quit the game altogether. Fix match making to put the proto stompers with proto stompers and afkers with afkers. FIX MATCH MAKING so I want to try Back in the beta days you had a LOT of crazy good players. You'd see the Imps, Zion, STB, PFBHz, etc and you knew you were in for a stomp. But you squaded up (there was actually auto squading back in those days) and did your best. I took it as a learning experience. Now people just cry and deploy solo, derping around if they assume it's going to be a difficult fight. I'm not sure I understand why a person would even turn on a FPS with that attitude. in the beta days, lol back when everyone was low SP and proto suits was more like a basic proto suit is now. Tell us the stories of the proto stomps in beta with the 100 million SP vets in proto squads with each other facing a team of randoms. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5740	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:35:00 - [86] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: voidfaction wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Guys guys guys The goal is to stop afkers not punish scrubs keep this in mind. It punishes scrubs like me. I did not get rich cheating the PC payouts. I don't believe in running in full proto squads in pubs even if I had the isk to do so. The proto stomps are one of the reasons I do not try in matches. You want to get rid of afkers fine but give them a reason to want to try because going into a proto stomp is not going to get them to try it is going to get them to just quit the game altogether. Fix match making to put the proto stompers with proto stompers and afkers with afkers. FIX MATCH MAKING so I want to try Back in the beta days you had a LOT of crazy good players. You'd see the Imps, Zion, STB, PFBHz, etc and you knew you were in for a stomp. But you squaded up (there was actually auto squading back in those days) and did your best. I took it as a learning experience. Now people just cry and deploy solo, derping around if they assume it's going to be a difficult fight. I'm not sure I understand why a person would even turn on a FPS with that attitude. in the beta days, lol back when everyone was low SP and proto suits was more like a basic proto suit is now. Tell us the stories of the proto stomps in beta with the 100 million SP vets in proto squads with each other facing a team of randoms. You can't bring 100 mil SP to the field at one time no matter how hard you try. Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 959	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:45:00 - [87] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: voidfaction wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: voidfaction wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Guys guys guys The goal is to stop afkers not punish scrubs keep this in mind. It punishes scrubs like me. I did not get rich cheating the PC payouts. I don't believe in running in full proto squads in pubs even if I had the isk to do so. The proto stomps are one of the reasons I do not try in matches. You want to get rid of afkers fine but give them a reason to want to try because going into a proto stomp is not going to get them to try it is going to get them to just quit the game altogether. Fix match making to put the proto stompers with proto stompers and afkers with afkers. FIX MATCH MAKING so I want to try Back in the beta days you had a LOT of crazy good players. You'd see the Imps, Zion, STB, PFBHz, etc and you knew you were in for a stomp. But you squaded up (there was actually auto squading back in those days) and did your best. I took it as a learning experience. Now people just cry and deploy solo, derping around if they assume it's going to be a difficult fight. I'm not sure I understand why a person would even turn on a FPS with that attitude. in the beta days, lol back when everyone was low SP and proto suits was more like a basic proto suit is now. Tell us the stories of the proto stomps in beta with the 100 million SP vets in proto squads with each other facing a team of randoms. You can't bring 100 mil SP to the field at one time no matter how hard you try. You can bring 2 years of experience with full REAL proto suit, weapon, and mods and the ability to switch to a fully different REAL proto role when needed. How many people had 4+ fully proto roles in beta with 2 years experience in this game? And you think putting a squad of 8 Vets now in a match of randoms is fair and you don't understand why people do not want to try. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
MEDICO RITARDATO Dead Man's Game RUST415 440	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:47:00 - [88] - Quote Edit. Misunderstood, im a scrub The pen is on the table. TheD1CK is a scrub.
james jared Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 97	Posted - 2015.01.13 20:05:00 - [89] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. In 50 clone ambush? Really? But anyway, stating the obvious here, the threshold has to be different for different game modes. CCP Rattati wrote: 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay I am very curious, though, what you consider this "next to impossible" amount of WP to be... Numbers significantly higher than 2500 are deeply hard to hut without being a logi spammer. Anything above 3000 is impossible without boosting or being in the top 0.5% native shooter badass player category. Since they are outliers they should not be used as a balancing factor. Lol as a logi I get games where I push 8000 wp in a fight. Thats just being a good logi. I did over 9000 wp top game I have played. 2000 to 3000 wp is prity easy to hit in a dom or skim as long as u have a squad to work with. I have solo played and got a 5000 wp warbarge strike my self many times. So it is not impossible to get high levels of wp if ur a logi. As other roles that kind of wp is really hard to hit.
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 268	Posted - 2015.01.13 20:49:00 - [90] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Attributes: New Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = A (integer) Veteran Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = B (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = C (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = D (integer) Minor point of order, I think you mean: Quote: New Player Skill Points/War Point = C (integer) Veteran Player Skill Points/War Point = D (integer) For numbers, I'd say a moderately well played, average length Skirmish should award about 7000SP (before boosters). A very well played Skirm should hit about 10,000SP. Let's say an "average length Skirmish" is 15min (I actually don't know how long it is, some metrics would be nice here). So at 900 seconds, a moderately well performing player should be getting about 7.7¦à SP per second. I'm going to do a design hack here, and presume the 80/20 Rule is a design goal for us. So let's randomly say a new player gets 80% of their SP from match time and 20% from WP, and the vet is the inverse of that. For a battle rewarding 7000SP this breaks into: NP: 5600SP from match-time. Vet: 1400SP from match-time. So if those are the numbers we want to see from a 900 second battle: for "New Player Skill Points/BattleSecond" we'd want a value of 6.2 , and for "Veteran Player Skill Points/BattleSecond" we'd want a value of about 1.6 . (A note here, these variables are presently set to integers. Can we change that to a float? When dealing with numbers these small, granularity would be nice.) Now for WP to SP, we're going to be forced to do some *wild* guesses at numbers. First, what is the cut-off between "New Player" and "Vet"? Let's randomly say 12 million SP. So, the group of players under 12mil SP, let's guess they get in the range of 0WP to 1500WP in a Skirmish. For the group of players over 12mil SP, they might get in the range of 400WP to 3000WP in a Skirmish. Let's grab the mid-point of those two numbers and go with: "New Players" (heavy quotes) pull 750WP a match. "Vets" (very heavy quotes) pull 1700WP a match. So if we go with the goal of an average 7000SP a match, and the 80/20 Rule: "New Players" would get 1400SP from WP. "Vets" would get 5600SP from WP. Using the (highly arbitrary) mid-point values above: "New Player Skill Points/War Point" would be 1.87 . "Veteran Player Skill Points/War Point" would be 3.29 . So let's double-check these values and look at the SP ranges for the Skirm WP performance ranges presumed above. New Players: 0WP in Skirmish = 5600SP + (0WP * 1.87) = 5600 SP 750WP in Skirmish = 5600SP + (750WP * 1.87) = 7003 SP 1500WP in Skirmish = 5600SP + (1500WP * 1.87) = 8405 SP Vets: 400WP in Skirmish = 1400SP + (400WP * 3.29) = 2716 SP 1700WP in Skirmish = 1400SP + (1700WP * 3.29) = 6993 SP 3000WP in Skirmish = 1400SP + (3000WP * 3.29) = 11,270 SP And some of those numbers sound insane, right?! A 750WP player moving from the New Player tier to the Vet tier will instantly go from a respectable 7000SP to a demoralizing 3880SP. Players who joined in Beta, but have only been playing occasionally will be instantly thrown into the Vet pool and getting similarly depressing rewards. I think the main problem here is that two tiers is far too stark to meaningfully represent the vast gradient of skill levels in the playerbase. Like others here have proposed, I'd like to see this pushed to a more multi-tiered system. 1 - Recruit - Brand new to Dust, most still in Academy, still figuring out how the game works. 2 - - Understand the basics of the game, working on learning and building into roles. 3 - Mid Tier - Specialized fully into a role and has several half-finished side roles, learning map strategies. 4 - - Multiple roles that can be switched into, has a pretty good understanding of strategies. 5 - God Tier - Highend PC ringers, masterful understanding of most every role and strategy, only ever lose to other God Tier. Alternatively, we could do away with the idea of stark tiers all together, and have a sliding scale where the more SP you have, the more you are pushed to the WP-focused reward end of the algorithm. One final note about tiering: There are situations in which a player is high SP, but low in WP earning ability. Since we don't want to lose the since of reward that is the SP payout, some people here have suggested moving to a more skill focused system to deternine where you should be placed in the tiers. On the surface this sounds good, but there is a big problem in that the main purpose of this system is to hinder the reward for AFKing. Since a dedicated AFK character will in most cases have a low ++ (mu), then they will always be placed in the lowest tier, receiving the hgiest SP reward for time, and thus we'd miss a massive amount of the AFKers. We will still catch people AFKing on their main, though, and that is something. CCP Rattati wrote: War Point Threshold = T (WP) Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) I'd suggest making these a factor of time spent in battle. Good values for T & M will in Skirm will be bad in Ambush. Also, Scotty putting you in battles that are 50%+ over is already unfun enough. The idea of being put in a battle with not enough time to hit the minimum WP threshold will be highly upsetting to players. To start to offer some input on values, though, I tend to pull around 2000WP in a Skirmish, and on a few perfect matches I've hit 3000WP. And I know that A-tier Logis can get into the high 3000's when the stars align. For a Skirmish played beginning to end, a safe value for T would probably be 4000WP. And in that same situation, a value of about 200 would probably be a safe value for M. For P if we're working with "safe" values for the other constants, I'm happy going with something aggressive for the diminisher. I'd put the "War Point Diminisher" at 50%; maybe harsher.

Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 754	Posted - 2015.01.13 20:54:00 - [91] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, we will be implementing the following change to Skill Point calculations 1) Two formulas, one for New Players and one for Veteran Players. The New Players will be awarded more SP per BattleSecond and less per War Point, the reverse for Veterans. Now Veterans have a higher upside, but they need to do something in battle so AFKing will be rather worthless for Veterans. New Players will not be stuck in a situation they can't get out of, while they learn the game. Attributes: New Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = A (integer) Veteran Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = B (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = C (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = D (integer) 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay Attributes: War Point Threshold = T (WP) War Point Diminisher = P (%) 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers the above emphasis is mine... So if I read that last part correctly, then what you are saying is a vet has to meet some minimum level of WP (M in the above equation) to be able to get ANY SP at all from the match? WHAT ***** CRACK ARE YOU GUYS ON THE CPM SMOKING!!!! Seriously, can you devise a worse way to discourage your long-time invested player base from ever playing your game EVER AGAIN? The game is already a freaking stupendous grind to get SP to begin with (as compared to EVE online) and you are going to DETRIMENT your veteran player base as a "reward" for sticking with it? Do you guys ever look at the big picture effects of this you are spewing forth? You want to ENCOURAGE your veteran players to sit back and TEACH the new players how to play the game, not worry about meeting some minimum criteria to even earn SPs every god damned match! You want the vets to be the squad leaders that are coordinating what the squad is doing so that teamwork is fostered, not making them compete with their own squad mates for every single WP possible such that they have to take all the ** themselves and screw the team. SERIOUSLY!!! You guys both at CCP and on the CPM are falling victim to some ginormous amounts of GROUPTHINK!
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 543	Posted - 2015.01.13 21:27:00 - [92] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: A 750WP player moving from the New Player tier to the Vet tier will instantly go from a respectable 7000SP to a demoralizing 3880SP. Players who joined in Beta, but have only been playing occasionally will be instantly thrown into the Vet pool and getting similarly depressing rewards. I think the main problem here is that two tiers is far too stark to meaningfully represent the vast gradient of skill levels in the playerbase. Great post (and with some data backing your arguments )! +1 Especially the above part, which is the main concern I share. (but did not explain as elegantly)
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 7175	Posted - 2015.01.13 22:11:00 - [93] - Quote I like this idea a lot. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 759	Posted - 2015.01.13 22:31:00 - [94] - Quote We also need to be careful not to punish low WP play styles too harshly. Currently with the vet getting active skill points for being in battle it doesn't hurt to pursue viable and meaningful roles that help your team win but leave you with low WP. Such as true scouts. If I have an EWAR scout that I use to infiltrate behind enemy lines and take key objectives (CRU & SD) and destroy uplinks I may only reach about 750-1000 WP on a slow round. Snipers, true snipers, are an incredibly valuable asset but are at times low WP roles. Running commando as support is not very rewarding, I have had some very good games with the right conditions where I will get 1500+ WP but not often. Even sentinels who defend objectives in a slow skirmish instead of riding around in their murder taxi can have some very low WP rounds. I have the SP to switch to the role most need, or in this case most profitable. But not newER players that only have one role or maybe two. I would rather see the integers either be variable based on total/mean/median WP generated per round or Have a high multiplier with an aggressive diminishing return to allow respectable SP rewarded for some of our lower yield roles. (Caution: may have unintended side effect of encouraging varying roles) Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1878	Posted - 2015.01.13 22:36:00 - [95] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: Min WP threshold should be equated based off median team score which would allow it to more accurately respond to varying battle scenarios. Perhaps even a combination of mean and median calculations, perhaps preferencing the lower of the two. This is actually one of the few sensible ideas in this thread. If there's 12 people with only 100wp, you're likely to still get sp. if there's 9 people with 3000+ and you have 100, you didn't contribute. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 20793	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:20:00 - [96] - Quote Very nice. Death to AFKing! Any ideas on what to do with LP? I must admit I sometimes AFK FW matches because I get the same payout anyway. Sometimes, one just has an overwhelming urge to throw a potato at someone.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3595	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:22:00 - [97] - Quote A = 5 Points per Second B = 1 Point per Second C= 5 SP per WP D= 15 SP per WP M=300 They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
iKILLu osborne True Vengeance. 587	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:40:00 - [98] - Quote the min for veteran should be 400wp which is easily achievable for even a sniper (8 kills) which is usually what ordinary snipers see at the eom screen. the diminishing return for a vet should start at 3000 which only uber logi's/ tankers can exceed or your random rare pub'star can exceed. if you shoot me from the redline i will ensure your death will be a swift one
Zindorak Nyain Chan General Tso's Alliance 1632	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:41:00 - [99] - Quote Interesting Ratatti Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Capital Punishment. 3096	Posted - 2015.01.14 01:00:00 - [100] - Quote It is a good idea, like all things, in theory. I can see some huge potential problems. Current System: SP = (2X + 5Y) * 1 +.5A + B X = WP Y = Time in battle (seconds) A = Active Booster B = Omega Booster. I'll ignore A and B for now. This means that it pretty much all of your SP comes from being in a battle. You would need to get 2.5 WP a second to equal out. In a 12 minute Domination, that is over 1,800 WP for Passive to be a smaller bonus. Frankly speaking, people are not hitting those numbers. Play a solo game, no squads, no friends. At the end of the match, look at the scoreboard. Assuming that no one is actively cheating, you are going to see numbers greater than 1,800 for maybe the top 3 or 4 players on each side. Even 3 or 4 is generous. This means that the Passive SP is more important to 75% of the players in the match. It is easy to see why. Let's say that in a 11 minute match, someone kill 30 people, 6 headshots, and gets 5 assists. That is 1,685 WP. This means that 3,370 SP from WP and 3,300 from time. Even a godly score like that is only marginally more SP from WP. For the players that have good or decent but don't get higher scores, changing the WP could be a flat out kick in the teeth. As I always say, I am mediocre most of the time. In a good match I might go 15 kills in my Scout suit. Let's say that is 12 minute Domination, and I get 1,000 WP. 2,000 from WP and 3,600 from Time. But let's say I didn't use Uplinks to farm more WP and I got 8 kills. That's 400 WP, an extra 80 if I with Defend Bonus. That is what the average player in a match is pulling. Look past the people getting 2k+ and go for numbers 4-12. Some of those might be new players yes but I bet a lot are veterans that might just either not have a spectacular game or be performing roles that do not earn much WP. Reducing their SP "because you really should have gotten more" is unfair to them. When do you call someone a veteran by SP? I have 44 million SP and have been playing since Open Beta. I am clearly a veteran, right? What about my friend's character that has 12 million SP but has zero WP because she has been building it up? Is that a veteran? Jeez, what about the person that started 3 months ago with 3,672,000 SP every 4 weeks? That would be over 11 million SP. Veteran? Stickier question. Someone by the name of Gill Bates starts the game. Gill decides "what the hell?" and drop 100+ dollars on the game. He run 3 Omega Passives and Actives for 28 days. He caps out 4 times in 28 days. Passive SP is 2,688,000 for 28 days and Active is a whopping 12,000,000 from Active. Is he a Veteran? The root of the problem, even ignoring the extreme, is that two people can start playing at the same time, play the same amount of time but the person that spends money is going to get to the different formula first. This can either be a detriment if they are both pulling numbers that would favor Y instead of X or a bonus if the opposite were true. "I spent money on the game and now I have to work harder to earn my SP?" "I didn't spend money on the game and CCP decided to change the game so I earned less SP flat out." Veteran by time is the same problem just backwards. I am coming up on 3 years of play. Veteran, easy. My friend's account has been building for a year but never played. Veteran? Basically, the same problem as time is just as difficult to tack down as SP. For the less strong players that might pull bad numbers but love the game, this change is going to make it harder to get SP. My dear ol' dad is one of these types of players. He has 40 million SP but isn't super strong at the game. He can pull 400 WP on a good Domination match that he is solo. This change will slaughter his end of match SP. Even if the change was 3X + 4Y is SP is going from 4,100 to 3,840. Lower by a small part, yes, but lower. Biggest part: If this change is going through, please please please let players get Attacking Bonus for fighting near an Objective. Currently, whoever gets there first gets 20% more WP while those that are desperately trying to get it back get no bonus. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3529	Posted - 2015.01.14 02:07:00 - [101] - Quote A=10 B=1 C=5 D=10 T=5000 P=50% M=250 "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Crimson ShieId Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1699	Posted - 2015.01.14 02:11:00 - [102] - Quote I haven't read through the entire thread, so it's probably already been said, but... This makes me a tad nervous. I like the idea, sort of, but at the same time, the idea of always having to push myself in games to make a certain WP number is just... Shudders I love Dust, but I don't always love trying to do everything I can to win. Sometimes it's nice to just relax and play a game without worrying about winning, or perhaps setting a goal such as not dying while still helping the team by hacking points. Most of these earn Warpoints, but things like driving around in a LAV roadkilling mercs who don't look both ways before crossing the road doesn't earn that much, not to mention some battles are just so bad due to stomps that earning more than a few WP without being a logi is difficult. I want to punch.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1704	Posted - 2015.01.14 03:35:00 - [103] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Back in the beta days you had a LOT of crazy good players. You'd see the Imps, Zion, STB, PFBHz, etc and you knew you were in for a stomp. But you squaded up (there was actually auto squading back in those days) and did your best. I took it as a learning experience. Now people just cry and deploy solo, derping around if they assume it's going to be a difficult fight. I'm not sure I understand why a person would even turn on a FPS with that attitude. Back in Beta: * all players had 1/2 to 1/3 of their present-day HP * weapons hit harder and TTK was faster * even the best players got wrecked when you got the drop on 'em or outplayed them * Isk had value, and no one ran photon gear around the clock * the SP gap between new and old player was not so staggering * matchmaking failures happened, but they weren't as common as they are today Player mentality hasn't changed. The game changed.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 251	Posted - 2015.01.14 03:46:00 - [104] - Quote The key to defeating the AFKers is to provide rewards (when scoring low sp) that would only benefit new players Such as: Skill books New isk starter fits (giving them no resale value & non transferable) Strongboxes (lol)
jane stalin Ametat Security Amarr Empire 85	Posted - 2015.01.14 05:48:00 - [105] - Quote voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. So you are saying people with less than 800 should get nothing? I think they should get something.
jane stalin Ametat Security Amarr Empire 85	Posted - 2015.01.14 06:34:00 - [106] - Quote Have some safety nets, If your damage to the enemy is high and your warpoints are low you have been slaughtered by shield tankers so you should get something If you have lost a lot of ISK and your team was protostomped you should get something ] CCP should definitely change the wording AV nemesis pack it sells if you implement this change because the massive amount of dishonestly will become more infuriating after the change If you hunt Proto tanks with a forge it is common to get 0 WP, You hit them twice and they still have shields and then you die because everyone knows were you are.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 979	Posted - 2015.01.14 06:42:00 - [107] - Quote jane stalin wrote: voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. So you are saying people with less than 800 should get nothing? I think they should get something. From my understanding it only stops them from getting SP although I would even agree with nothing. This is for Vet players that if they are trying should not be that hard to get in skirmish matches. If I don't get over 800 It was either a really bad proto stomp or I started late in the match. I made that number based on what I can do in skirmish pubs with a meta 13 scout. I know that other game modes that might be high and can not give my opinion on them because I only play skirmish. I really like the idea of this but at the same time see to many problems with it. It favors redline logi or running out and dropping a few uplinks on a roof and afking the rest of the match if it is low. So I think it would be pointless at a low number unless they are going to make getting WP harder for logi or anyone dropping uplinks. I know in my meta 13 scout i have to work my ass off to get over 1000 while getting > proto stomped <. Now a logi can get that sitting in the redline for the majority of the match. If they are going to set a min then they need to balance the way you earn WP so it is just as hard for a logi to get as it is playing any other role. If one role has to try then all roles have to try. Not all roles except logi. If you have seen all the people I have dropping hives while buddy/alt stands beside them just shooting there rifle in the redline so they can get wp you would understand why I want it high or a WP earning balance. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 1246	Posted - 2015.01.14 08:58:00 - [108] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: This is a good initiative and an initial WP minimum is a way to go. I'd say we have to watch out for the proto-stomp effect. I have had matches (mostly skirmish), where all points are captured very early on (within the 1st minute), and then they are held by the opposing team until the end. In this scenario, after the initial slaughter, most people hang back, take some potshots , but don't really gather many war points as they are all redlined. They may try to do so (I always try as I'm a lone wolf) , and in doing so, lose even more suits but don't necessarily rack up WP. It would be delicate to punish these people who are in fact trying, but not necessarily earning WP, and are actively losing suits. What would then happen is if people figure out how the system works, once they realise there is no hope of a minimum WP, they will simply leave the game , as hanging around doesn't benefit them, and this wouldn't improve the game for anyone. Even a proto-stomper would like to play against other people I'm sure... and if they aren't killing people they aren't getting their minimum either. Re: the underlined, emboldened piece, though the whole wall is relevant: I have never, ever, left a game, even being stomped and redlined. I always try to find a way to get a foothold in these games. It helps me learn. That or I bring out a cheap as chips suit and try to get a +50 What I can say is if this WP threshold is implemented, I will probably begin to leave games as soon as I think I'm going to earn nothing for my efforts. By my efforts, I mean trying to get my team a foothold in a battle. I am unlikely to get much in the way of WP. Not sure this threshold is going to help much. Bright Steel wrote: Min WP threshold should be equated based off median team score which would allow it to more accurately respond to varying battle scenarios. Perhaps even a combination of mean and median calculations, perhaps preferencing the lower of the two. CCP Rattati I implore you to consider this excellent sounding idea. It shuts my moaning up and seems to make a lot of sense, balancing dynamically based on how the team is doing. Have to say, although I haven't read every post here, those talking about what makes a vet a vet, don't seem to consider vets with poor gun game who play for enjoyment. If you put the below average vets into the same pot as the top-notch mercs, you are punishing them for not being as good. Being a vet doesn't necessarily make you good at the game - be careful not to punish those ppl (I include myself in this) You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
Protected Void Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 381	Posted - 2015.01.14 09:11:00 - [109] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: [quote=Zaria Min Deir][quote=voidfaction][quote=CCP Rattati] Numbers significantly higher than 2500 are deeply hard to hut without being a logi spammer. Anything above 3000 is impossible without boosting or being in the top 0.5% native shooter badass player category. Since they are outliers they should not be used as a balancing factor. I disagree. I'm certainly not in the "native shooter badass player category", and it's not all that uncommon for me to get more than 2500 in a skirmish. I'm not saying I average that, by far, but it happens every now and then. I get these points from kills, assists, various opportunistic hacks, objective defense bonuses and spawns on my uplinks. I run advanced scout or assault 98% of the time (no logi suits ever), so bandwidth limits me to 2 active uplinks. I rarely get any significant WP from nanohives or other equipment. 2500+ WP is a good match, playing the game as intended, no boosting. It's not an excellent match. In an excellent match, I'm pretty sure I could pass 3000 WP, and man would it suck to not be rewarded for that. Good logis will frequently get more than that, too - by legitimate logi activites, not boosting. Any absolute limiting factor needs to take into account all players playing the game as intended, including logis and the badass players that you call outliers. I'd tentatively suggest the limit should be in the area between 4500 and 5000 - certainly not lower than 4000. I've seen boosters reach both 7000, 8000 and 9000 WPs, so even a limit of 5000 would get rid of the worst boosting. TL;DR: A limit of 3000 is, IMHO, too low. 4000-5000 is more realistic.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1783	Posted - 2015.01.14 10:13:00 - [110] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, we will be implementing the following change to Skill Point calculations 1) Two formulas, one for New Players and one for Veteran Players. The New Players will be awarded more SP per BattleSecond and less per War Point, the reverse for Veterans. Now Veterans have a higher upside, but they need to do something in battle so AFKing will be rather worthless for Veterans. New Players will not be stuck in a situation they can't get out of, while they learn the game. Attributes: New Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = A (integer) Veteran Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = B (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = C (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = D (integer) 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay Attributes: War Point Threshold = T (WP) War Point Diminisher = P (%) 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers this change favors logis. a logi can gain alot of WP without even putting himself into dangerous situations... now take someone sitting in an assault suit most of the time or even a dropship pilot...

Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 589	Posted - 2015.01.14 10:45:00 - [111] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: CCP Rattati I implore you to consider this excellent sounding idea. It shuts my moaning up and seems to make a lot of sense, balancing dynamically based on how the team is doing. Have to say, although I haven't read every post here, those talking about what makes a vet a vet, don't seem to consider vets with poor gun game who play for enjoyment. If you put the below average vets into the same pot as the top-notch mercs, you are punishing them for not being as good. Being a vet doesn't necessarily make you good at the game - be careful not to punish those ppl (I include myself in this) Just make sure to have an absolute minimal value. Somewhere around 250. (An AFKer is unlikely to earn that much) Otherwise the last few on the leaderboards will never get rewarded if they are vets, which is kinda problematic. Also, thanks for pointing this out. Personally, I take huge pauses between play times. Sometimes I spend half a year not playing the game. So when I return, I'm generally quite rusty and rarely play enough to get back to full capacity. Especially when I get frustrated and stop playing because lolProto.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 549	Posted - 2015.01.14 11:01:00 - [112] - Quote I have made some calculations based on Celus Ivara's assumptions of a 20/80 split and numbers, and mapped that into a excel chart calculating total SP per game based on passive and WP SP. Its very quick and dirty so feel free to expand on it (it does not contain any minimum veteran WP or max limits (devaluation) parameters) The values currently are; A = 6 B = 1 C = 2 D = 5 To minimize the risk of a SP "cliff" when moving from "New Player" to "Veteran", and to accommodate different match lengths, I would propose the following mechanic: For a player classified as "New Player", BOTH calculations execute EOM and the highest calculated SP is taken as payout. If the "Veteran" payout is the highest more than half the time the last 20 games (example), the player is bumped up to "Veteran" status. This moves the jump to "Veteran" from purely depending on lifetime SP (as we have currently assumed) to actual player skill in battle, since the SP payout curves intersect at different points depending on match length and WP. For example (with the above numbers): For a 7 minute Ambush (420 seconds), a "New Player" would receive more SP up to 700 WP (700WP = 3920 SP). For a 15 minute Skirmish (900 seconds), a "New Player" would receive more SP up to 1500 WP (1500WP = 8400 SP). If he scores more WP than these values, the "Veteran" SP payout would yield more. If the player constantly hit this mark in enough battles, he is bumped up to "Veteran" and only one calculation is made from now on. This also ensures the transition is smooth since the SP payouts would be very similar at the cutoff point (he would probably even not notice it) Google Docs - Example In regards to the Veteran Minimum WP limit, I would propose to put this very very low, like 100 WP max. Its the AFK:ers we are after after all. Alternatively one checks for both WP and deaths, since players trying but performing poorly usually die quite a lot compared to a AFK:er.
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1290	Posted - 2015.01.14 11:07:00 - [113] - Quote Reading that 10 million SP players are now called veteran is an offence to us, real veterans. Anyway... Since my SP reward will be more based on the WPs I obtain I strongly demand that you take a look at this thread. It is clear to everyone here that Logis are WP farming machine, we have to reward other roles doing their job. Take a look at that thread and I think you'll find some good suggestions. One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
jane stalin Ametat Security Amarr Empire 88	Posted - 2015.01.14 11:19:00 - [114] - Quote Protected Void wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: [quote=Zaria Min Deir][quote=voidfaction][quote=CCP Rattati] Numbers significantly higher than 2500 are deeply hard to hut without being a logi spammer. Anything above 3000 is impossible without boosting or being in the top 0.5% native shooter badass player category. Since they are outliers they should not be used as a balancing factor. TL;DR: A limit of 3000 is, IMHO, too low. 4000-5000 is more realistic. A limit of 3000 would be great, you just would allow exceptions, People that have gotten more than 2000 many times should have a limit of 4000 people that have gotten more than 3000 many times should have a limit of 5000 etc, For totally new players that have not established themselves then you could give it to them some extra SP after 20 matches if they have been regularly doing well.
SponkSponkSponk WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1128	Posted - 2015.01.14 11:22:00 - [115] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I am trying to eliminate both as well as figure out a way to make winning rewarding, but trying hard and losing, not the end of the world. It's not an easy problem. Other games solve this by accruing 'revenge points' every time you lose a match, which then get cashed in for bonus rewards when you eventually do win. Dust/Eve transfers
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1719	Posted - 2015.01.14 12:58:00 - [116] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Bright Steel wrote: Min WP threshold should be equated based off median team score which would allow it to more accurately respond to varying battle scenarios. Perhaps even a combination of mean and median calculations, perhaps preferencing the lower of the two. CCP Rattati I implore you to consider this excellent sounding idea. It shuts my moaning up and seems to make a lot of sense, balancing dynamically based on how the team is doing. Agreed. Best suggestion so far.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 765	Posted - 2015.01.14 14:36:00 - [117] - Quote This highlights he WP disparity between roles that has been mentioned many times. Some roles generally get MUCH more WP and this system would exacerbate the problem. We either need to equalize W p gain between roles (will be very difficult and I don't recommend) Or we could give a high multiplier SP/WP with drastic deterioration Example: (based on Celus Ivara's numbers) 15 min skirmish 1400 SP from match time 0-1000 has multiplier of 5 (500WP=2500SP and 1000WP=5000SP) By 2000 multiplier deteriorates to 4 graudually (8000SP) By 3000 it's down to 3 (9000SP) By 4000 it's down to 2.5 (10000SP) hard cap Average vets with 1000-2000 WP and some of those low WP roles still get reasonable rewards while high WP roles don't completely take Advantage of the system. Numbers are for reference to idea as example only:) Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 765	Posted - 2015.01.14 14:40:00 - [118] - Quote After seeing others ideas I think vet status should be determined by lifetime WP/battle average Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 276	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:23:00 - [119] - Quote So something that is happening in this proposal and discussion that I don't think any of us fully realize, is that there are kind of two goals to this initiative. 1: Reward talented players directly for their performance on the battlefield, while keeping a time based reward for unskilled player so they still get payed out while they're learning the game. 2: Greatly hinder AFKing by decreasing/eliminating their match-time SP payout. A sub-topic of #1 is "How do we determine if a player is a New Player or a Vet?" There are two ways to make that determination: Player talent based, or SP total based. For "Player talent based", a number of suggestions have popped up. Honestly, I think Regis's is the best I've heard. Regis Blackbird wrote: To minimize the risk of a SP "cliff" when moving from "New Player" to "Veteran", and to accommodate different match lengths, I would propose the following mechanic: For a player classified as "New Player", BOTH calculations execute EOM and the highest calculated SP is taken as payout. If the "Veteran" payout is the highest more than half the time the last 20 games (example), the player is bumped up to "Veteran" status. A variant option is to just use the hidden mu stat (the in-game estimation of how good a player is, used by the Team Balancer in matchmaking). These are very good methods of solving the Tier selection sub-problem of #1. But the problem is that in the great majority of cases, a AFKing player looks exactly like a normal not good player to the computer! So if we utilize a Player talent based system, we'll successfully put New Players and Vets into the correct reward schemes, but we'll also be pushing most of the AFKers into the highly match-time rewarding New Player tier. And if we instead make the tier decision based upon SP totals, we'll be pushing a ton of casual players into the "pull 2k WP or go home broke" reward scheme. Both situations are very bad, and I'm starting to worry that this conflict is unresolvable! There may be no way to force AFKers into a play-to-be-paid tier without screwing over new-berries. :\ I will say though that implementing #1 is worthwhile in and of itself, even if it has no effect on AAFKers. And, any of the variations of this system we've been talking about will greatly hinder the AFKers who are doing it on their main; which by itself would also make this endeavor worth it. My main point is that we probably can't use tiering to eliminate AFKing on alts without screwing over normal low WP players. Now on to a slight tangent: If we want to lessen AFKers, we need to take a multi-faceted approach. Now, we already are doing this, through filtering out players engaging in AFK behavior, and adjusting the match-time WP reward to lessen the incentive to AFK. But one thing that hasn't been brought up that we should be discussing is that the weekly SP cap was tripled a few months ago by accident! The change was left in place as an experiment to see if it broke anything. Most of the game was unhurt by it, but one new thing did appear, players could get a massive SP reward for AFKing their characters. It may be time to reevaluate whether having an SP cap so high it's only reachable through AFKing (or a self-destructive level of no-lifeing) is something we want in our game. :\
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5832	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:43:00 - [120] - Quote voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. You jerk! As a Sentinel I only occasionally get above 800 WP. Overall I like Rattati's proposal though. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5832	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:45:00 - [121] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: After rolling a few alts I have to wager that 12 million SP is veteran enough. By then even with badly spent SP you should be able to be still rather effective in at least one role or two. Agreed. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5832	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:46:00 - [122] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Looks like some great stuff and solves the age old of problem of trying to head off AFKing being something that hurts new players. I would start low with the minimum WP threshold like 100 to 300 WP, see how it works, and then go from there. This is more reasonable. Even as a Sentinel I can usually break 300 WP. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5832	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:53:00 - [123] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Looks like some great stuff and solves the age old of problem of trying to head off AFKing being something that hurts new players. I would start low with the minimum WP threshold like 100 to 300 WP, see how it works, and then go from there. Agreed. We want this to a gradual step change to players can get used to it. Minimum 100-300, lol Did I miss read it. I thought the minimum WP threshold is for vets not noobs. Drop 8 uplinks and see you when the match is over. Later....Bye....Cya.....Enjoy your game. The 800 i suggested is a joke for any logi. Send out the memo if you want to afk or not try then deploy a logi and drop eq then sit in the red line. This is why many Sentinels come to hate Logi... this and being yelled at and being considered just another piece of their equipment on the end of a leash getting them War Points. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5832	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:55:00 - [124] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay I am very curious, though, what you consider this "next to impossible" amount of WP to be... Over 9000? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5832	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:59:00 - [125] - Quote sammus420 wrote: Make dust track the distance your character moves during the course of a match. If it's under X and you have less than Y kills, no SP and no ISK for you. Is it really that hard? And what about that guy who spent the whole match single handedly holding one of the outside objectives, rather than running from objective to objective with everyone else like a bunch of 6th graders playing Soccer? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1721	Posted - 2015.01.14 16:02:00 - [126] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: sammus420 wrote: Make dust track the distance your character moves during the course of a match. If it's under X and you have less than Y kills, no SP and no ISK for you. Is it really that hard? And what about that guy who spent the whole match single handedly holding one of the outside objectives, rather than running from objective to objective with everyone else like a bunch of 6th graders playing Soccer? Most of the AFKers I've encountered hang out in the MCC or squat/stand/squat/stand over the course of a match. They don't travel far, if at all. Then again, if squat/stand can be programmed so can walk-left/walk-right; distance traveled would likely prove an easily beaten filter.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5834	Posted - 2015.01.14 16:13:00 - [127] - Quote voidfaction wrote: So now vets will no long be able to just guard a objective because if they do and nobody ever comes and attacks it they get nothing. So no more tactics the game is being pushed to you run and gun or you get nothing. While this is a good point, there are usually some opportunities to gain WP. If the minimum was 300 you would definitely have the occasional game where you are defending and no one shows up, where you end up not getting anything out of it, but it would not be a regular occurrence. It might make stopping to hack a Supply Depot or Turret at the beginning of the game more important though, just to make it easier for certain classes to reach the minimum. I think my average WP per match is probably around 620 WP as a semi competent Sentinel (When not squad leading). Like you I tend to take on the Point Defense role, even when my squad are elsewhere racking up the kills. I find if everyone leaves a point a Scout usually comes along, drops an Uplink, and hacks the point. Not having anyone stay behind to defend a point is an easy way to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5835	Posted - 2015.01.14 16:26:00 - [128] - Quote Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Numbers significantly higher than 2500 are deeply hard to hut without being a logi spammer. Anything above 3000 is impossible without boosting or being in the top 0.5% native shooter badass player category. Since they are outliers they should not be used as a balancing factor. Strongly disagree on that last point. Logis are more than capable of achieving 4000-5000 WPs in a very good match, even in PC. And why focus on logis? AV users and anti vehicle pilots can get upwards of 3000 WPs during a competitive match. 4500-5000 would be a more realistic number. The theme of this thread: - Logi are suggesting a minimum that the average Sentinel will not be able to reach in half their matches. - Sentinels are suggesting a WP cap that good Logi will exceed in over half their matches. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5835	Posted - 2015.01.14 16:36:00 - [129] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I rarely hit below 250 even during a stomp. If you're new then you would be on a different value scale than myself. I literally have no justifiable excuse for performance that poor even if I were solo against 16 nyain san. I managed to get 0 WP in a battle recently and there were only 8 Nyan San on the other team. But that was a very rare occurrence resulting from a chain of really bad luck and circumstance. I think 250 WP is the most reasonable minimum. Vet's trying their best will still fall under it sometimes, but it would be very unusual, while an AFK'er would have to exert a lot of effort to get 250 WP, which hopefully would be enough to undermine the whole point of AFKing. Of course someone Dropping an Uplink under the MCC would probably get the 250 WP, but if that proves to be a problem, it can be dealt with separately. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5836	Posted - 2015.01.14 16:49:00 - [130] - Quote It occurs to me that if WP directly effect how many Skill Points you earn, this may go a long way to reducing HMG Sentinel and Sniper spam. Only those who truly loved the role, or are really good at it would do it. It might be good for the game. We would probably end up with a massive number of bad Logi, but that is not as big a problem, as Logi are not a Slayer class. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Jakkal Shoobah Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 42	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:16:00 - [131] - Quote Really interesting ideas CCP. I like the whole separation of sp earning for vets. My recommendation for a threshold is 750. It is an extremely easy score to earn for a vet player, even as an commando. I can't think of a role that wont earn this by the end of match if they are playing their role correctly. 1000 is not ridiculous but may be more difficult for sentinels, commandos, and drop ship pilots. As an assault I struggle to break the points of any decent logi so being rewarded for trying will make me very happy. While slow to anger and occasionally indecisive, they are also capable of harnessing enormous resolve when truly tested.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 551	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:58:00 - [132] - Quote After thinking some more and reading other suggestions, I think the system should be initially implemented without the minimal WP requirement for vets. Reasons: AFK:ing with an Alt will not be affected at all, and worse, might even gain by it. If you put too low limit (50-200) you might bypass it by drop uplinks or minimal action. If you put it too high (800-1000), you will have many people leaving game if they find they will not achieve the goal. You will also punish the odd player which is stomped into the ground, or (as others have pointed out) people guarding a point or teaching new players. I don't like that we have double standards (New vs Vets), which will surprice people when they suddenly become Vet and receive 0 SP on top of performing poory one game. It will induce more rage quits for sure. The proposed system have major benefits to NPE, and I would love to have it implemented (especially with the "player experience" transition as described in an earlier post). It would be a shame if the system fails because of the AFK problem. Let's find a carrot for this problem instead of a stick?
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 768	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:58:00 - [133] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: It occurs to me that if WP directly effect how many Skill Points you earn, this may go a long way to reducing HMG Sentinel and Sniper spam. Only those who truly loved the role, or are really good at it would do it. It might be good for the game. We would probably end up with a massive number of bad Logi, but that is not as big a problem, as Logi are not a Slayer class. But then their won't be a need for the logis and they won't get much points and will move on. Any more then two logis or maybe three is too much and unneeded. Rather I think we would see slayer logis. It's what I call my dragonfly scout with pro needles and adv rep tool and adv CR This will hurt the dedicated logis, but not as bad... It will also encourage dainamic game play helping to merge roles (one would have links/hives, hack, AV, slay) which vets are set up to do with their higher skill points. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 768	Posted - 2015.01.14 18:17:00 - [134] - Quote Jakkal Shoobah wrote: Really interesting ideas CCP. I like the whole separation of sp earning for vets. My recommendation for a threshold is 750. It is an extremely easy score to earn for a vet player, even as an commando. I can't think of a role that wont earn this by the end of match if they are playing their role correctly. 1000 is not ridiculous but may be more difficult for sentinels, commandos, and drop ship pilots. As an assault I struggle to break the points of any decent logi so being rewarded for trying will make me very happy. If ANY min threshold is used it should be variable based on battle conditions. (% of mean/median score) Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 740	Posted - 2015.01.14 19:01:00 - [135] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, we will be implementing the following change to Skill Point calculations 1) Two formulas, one for New Players and one for Veteran Players. The New Players will be awarded more SP per BattleSecond and less per War Point, the reverse for Veterans. Now Veterans have a higher upside, but they need to do something in battle so AFKing will be rather worthless for Veterans. New Players will not be stuck in a situation they can't get out of, while they learn the game. Attributes: New Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = A (integer) Veteran Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = B (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = C (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = D (integer) 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay Attributes: War Point Threshold = T (WP) War Point Diminisher = P (%) 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers I really, really, really don't like this idea. Why, as an Open Beta Veteran, who has spent the time and made the effort to excel, am I suddenly being penalized for being a Veteran? NPE/Newberries need a boost? Ok, give them a boost that decreases over time/SP accrual level. I received no such "boost" when I started, no "Academy" ezmode to learn in but whatever. Newberries need some help, I'm okay with them getting some help. But penalizing my SP payout, based on my "Veteran" status? Wtf is that ***? Not every match needs* uplinks spammed out or every person on the field to be doing every possible WP farming action available for the match to be a win. Why should MY SP takeaway be reduced if "all" I had to do way post out some scans, if that's "all" the team needed to be succesful? If all the team "needed" was to have the enemy homepoint hacked once or twice to divide their attention and render them conquered? My Veteran expertise recognized the keys to winning but isn't rewarded at the same scale as a Veteran who's poseuring around in their NewbieAlt? That is some Bullshit right there. Help the ones who need it, but don't discriminately balance that help on the backs of those who don't. The farther this game and its mechanics get dumbed down the stupider and less engrossing, appealing, and investment-worthy it becomes. Don't do this. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 740	Posted - 2015.01.14 19:08:00 - [136] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I rarely hit below 250 even during a stomp. If you're new then you would be on a different value scale than myself. I literally have no justifiable excuse for performance that poor even if I were solo against 16 nyain san. I managed to get 0 WP in a battle recently and there were only 8 Nyan San on the other team. But that was a very rare occurrence resulting from a chain of really bad luck and circumstance. I think 250 WP is the most reasonable minimum. Vet's trying their best will still fall under it sometimes, but it would be very unusual, while an AFK'er would have to exert a lot of effort to get 250 WP, which hopefully would be enough to undermine the whole point of AFKing. Of course someone Dropping an Uplink under the MCC would probably get the 250 WP, but if that proves to be a problem, it can be dealt with separately. This touches on what I predict to become the newest version of afking , dude just does some menial task (random link drop in the redline, safe installation hacking etc) to get the "minimum threshold" then goes right back to being afk, little to no change in pay. Whereas an active player, maybe doing other menial tasks (like, say, actively hunting and destroying redlinks [high risk for +5 a pop]) that actually are key to enemy suppression now gets a reduced in some manner or other reward at the end. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1202	Posted - 2015.01.14 19:40:00 - [137] - Quote 150WP min, 5000 point of diminishing returns, if I'm being forced to pick. Any minimum hurts good dropship pilots. It also discourages trying out new fits and new roles. I have spent an entire match riding in my LAV, learning how to pop my active modules properly. Being a veteran, I am now discouraged from doing anything fun but grinding for WP's? If I'm on point defense, and no one comes to attack, I get nothing? Zip, Zilch, Nada? WTF? Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
jane stalin Ametat Security Amarr Empire 89	Posted - 2015.01.14 20:33:00 - [138] - Quote There are times i domination where I try and clear the roof near the objective with my assault dropship and I fail a few times and try and rush my amarr logi to a good spawn don't get any WP at all, even though I am doing what is most likely to cause a win based on my past experience.
Flint Beastgood III Dead Man's Game RUST415 1294	Posted - 2015.01.14 21:29:00 - [139] - Quote This sounds awesome. PLEASE make sure it is POLISHED before release. Skills - https://www.facebook.com/notes/flint-beastgood-iii/list-of-trained-skills/416505058477164
Mima Sebiestor Mima Sebiestor's Solo Corp 4	Posted - 2015.01.15 07:31:00 - [140] - Quote This effort fails to address the farming accomplished by corporations. Friendly corporations may 'fight' each other, and end a match without either side having lost a clone. This is how veteran farmers gain free isk/sp. Please consider both solo farmers and team farmers while looking to improve gameplay (the later, of which, has a greater impact). Your metrics for identifying solo farmers may be easy to defeat. Instead, I would recommend a vote to kick system. After multiple votes, from multiple corps, we could use some metrics as a final judge. The metrics could then lean towards a more harsh perspective, owing to the votes accrued. Reducing my gains, due to farmers, allows farmers a win (in this battle).

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 515	Posted - 2015.01.15 08:55:00 - [141] - Quote I rather like this idea. Even though I would be generally opposed to 'teir'ing' exp gain (which is what this boils down to) Dust does not fit any other mold of personal player advancement. This fits it pretty well I would think. I would put a 'vet' at ~15mil SP. That is about what you need to be proto'ed out in a suit, weapon, and MOST of your support basics (ex. Engineering or Electronics) My only thought about it is minimum WP gain req for Vets. Some jobs are low WP gain. Other's are very high. And that could be an issue. For example, in a game of skirmish you are the heavy that holds [insert objective.] You do your job, stay on the point, and maybe 2 or 3 solo incursions are made that match by the other team but generally they realize they can't get you off without a concerted effort. They don't have the communication to do so so you end up killing 2 or 3 clones and doing nothing else but guarding the whole match. You are providing a valuable service to your team but you don't get a lot in the way of WP for it. Even if you have a logi buddy helping you neither of you are going to get much in the way of WP. Or the sniper that focuses on counter sniping. Just to keep their snipers off [insert sniper nest here] allowing your assaults to push [x] objective. You are, again, providing a team service but getting low WP for it. Conversely high WP gain roles (coughlogicough) could abuse this. Go in, spend 5 minutes rep tooling the hell out of a slayer, drop some uplinks, then go AFK somewhere. Still pull 1500+ wp and lots of SP. This system would heavily penalize said 'team player' types while allowing abuse by other types. So while I like it, I don't know how you would balance it.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1783	Posted - 2015.01.15 11:59:00 - [142] - Quote This may be slightly over complicating it but I do not think it should be a static number. Time in battle, kills, hacks, kill assists, and hack assists are a factor in reducing the threshold. The reason these things should be worked into the formula is because some one may come in to a half completed battle and be able to grab a hack or a couple of kills but not be able to reach the threshold. The easiest way to do this would be a "participation index" where each action can be weighted resulting in a final number which is within a certain range for points to be awarded. This would also be great for detecting farming type activity. Static variables just do not belong in this game, no one is doing the same thing, in battle the same amount of time, or using the same levels of gear. Something like this very basic example could be a start. Time in battle / ((WP/2) + (hacks * 2) + hack assists + (kills * 2) + kill assists) = X if X is greater than Y then WP / difference between X and Y if X is less than Z then WP / difference between X and Z Again this is only a basic example meant to show the possibilities of weighting certain activities that are indicative of farming such as hacks which after a certain number is obviously farming in PC. The same can be done with vehicle kills and vehicle damage as well. The beauty of this system is the absolute inability to figure out certain thresholds and just farm a certain amount. This would also be able to be very easily tweaked to account for new things being added that may make farming possible or just generally changes WP gain.
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1494	Posted - 2015.01.16 02:40:00 - [143] - Quote What if we were rewarded by the stats we see in the win/defeat screen? As in, as long as we have X amount of Dmg done or X amount of healing dealt, the rewards would be based on that? That way AFK'ers would be paid 0 if they did nothing and people who are active have to earn a certain amount of damage or healing or whatever the case may be to earn isk and sp. And if not, I think the minimum should be 300 for skirmish, 500 for domination, and 150 for ambush(for veterans) But I have a concerning question? What would happen if us veteran players get stomped by proto stomping players and we don't meet the minimum in that case? And is there a base payment still If these changes are implemented? Us casual veteran players aren't always making WP when the other team are stomping. Even if we are it wouldn't be as much. SP earned perday/week
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1494	Posted - 2015.01.16 02:49:00 - [144] - Quote The maximum IMO should be 4000 WP and after that it should deminish. Unless you make the max pertain to what class you use the most but I doubt that would work well. But this should be higher if it is a PC or FW match like 4500 at max SP earned perday/week
501st Headstrong 0uter.Heaven 800	Posted - 2015.01.16 11:40:00 - [145] - Quote I disagree the cap from be 4000. In the Chocolate Factory, you can easily hit 5000 during a good match. Set the cap to 5000 for normal matches, then you can make it 6000 or so for PC and FW, as I have seen Coldblooded Max get such a number :) 07 though CCP, you are guys are coming a long way "There are no rights. The world owes no one a living."-Sumner Official 0uter.Heaven Mascot XD Moody come back SWBF3!!
Dreis Shadowweaver T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 1712	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:49:00 - [146] - Quote Can you please define exactly what you consider to be a 'veteran'? Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 R3KT.
ScI-Iurk Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 51	Posted - 2015.01.17 13:40:00 - [147] - Quote Why not only reward players if they get atleast 1/4 or 1/3 of their own avarage wp score with a minimum of 200. I think you would need to take the avarage of the last 30 matches so that doing good still has enough effect. Then noobs have a lower treshold and vets have a higher one. You would have to make a char only to afk all the time cause if you score too high a few matches you would get a higher avarage.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 745	Posted - 2015.01.17 22:53:00 - [148] - Quote That this idea is still a "thing" is beyond pathetic. New players who begin a DUST careerpath have significantly more ways and option for significantly accelerated SP gains vs. what Vets have had. I'm talking about- Daily Login Bonuses (6k/day, 40k/week potential). Daily Mission Rewards (2k-20k individually, way more if you do them all). A 700k (!) weekly cap coupled with The ability to TRIPLE STACK (!) boosters of the player's choice. A Loyalty Market ripe with Suits, Weapons, Equipment and Mods that allow for advance use w/out skills. An Academy gamemode that allows for learning of basic gameplay elements against other no/low skill noobs instead of the fully protoed TeamPlayers or Imperfects pubteams. NewBerries need more? Fine. But don't penalize me because they can't handle their ****. This is a Persistent RPG Universe. That inherently means that a beginner will be SOL facing experienced vets. Just like any other game that pits a weaker character vs a stronger one. DO NOT reward MY starting the game at its introduction, STAYING through all the "patches" and "hotfixes" that flip-flopped stats and values almost weekly, CONTINUING through even the craziest videogame debacle of recent industry history (looking at YOU, Rouge Wedding) with a now diminished ability to proceed forward. If I or ColdbloodedMax or ANYONE else, whatever their veteranstatus is, has an excellent game and posts up 10million-jillion WP we DESERVE the concurrent SP. Not some reduced total because of some social-science theory bs about advancement compared to those who HAVEN'T put in the time and energy. I am astounded that as proposed this even made it off the drawing board and into the proposal pile. If I order a hundred large pizzas from a pizza shop over time and then order a medium they DON'T send me a small, because I've always ordered larges. If I go to the bar and order a hundred pitchers over time and then order a pint, they don't give me an 8oz glass. If I study at a University, get a BS then an MS then a PHD, when I get my second PHD, they don't give me a Bachelors-they give me my second PHD!! It has NEVER been EASIER to make huge SP gains in a short amount of time in DUST for "New" Players. Don't make it harder for Old Players now or you will find that in remodeling the restaraunt to attract more seasonal traffic you alienate and kill the local, regular traffic that KEEPS YOU IN BUSINESS LONG-TERM. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1018	Posted - 2015.01.17 23:16:00 - [149] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: That this idea is still a "thing" is beyond pathetic. New players who begin a DUST careerpath have significantly more ways and option for significantly accelerated SP gains vs. what Vets have had. I'm talking about- Daily Login Bonuses (6k/day, 40k/week potential). Daily Mission Rewards (2k-20k individually, way more if you do them all). A 700k (!) weekly cap coupled with The ability to TRIPLE STACK (!) boosters of the player's choice. A Loyalty Market ripe with Suits, Weapons, Equipment and Mods that allow for advance use w/out skills. An Academy gamemode that allows for learning of basic gameplay elements against other no/low skill noobs instead of the fully protoed TeamPlayers or Imperfects pubteams. NewBerries need more? Fine. But don't penalize me because they can't handle their ****. This is a Persistent RPG Universe. That inherently means that a beginner will be SOL facing experienced vets. Just like any other game that pits a weaker character vs a stronger one. DO NOT reward MY starting the game at its introduction, STAYING through all the "patches" and "hotfixes" that flip-flopped stats and values almost weekly, CONTINUING through even the craziest videogame debacle of recent industry history (looking at YOU, Rouge Wedding) with a now diminished ability to proceed forward. If I or ColdbloodedMax or ANYONE else, whatever their veteranstatus is, has an excellent game and posts up 10million-jillion WP we DESERVE the concurrent SP. Not some reduced total because of some social-science theory bs about advancement compared to those who HAVEN'T put in the time and energy. I am astounded that as proposed this even made it off the drawing board and into the proposal pile. If I order a hundred large pizzas from a pizza shop over time and then order a medium they DON'T send me a small, because I've always ordered larges. If I go to the bar and order a hundred pitchers over time and then order a pint, they don't give me an 8oz glass. If I study at a University, get a BS then an MS then a PHD, when I get my second PHD, they don't give me a Bachelors-they give me my second PHD!! It has NEVER been EASIER to make huge SP gains in a short amount of time in DUST for "New" Players. Don't make it harder for Old Players now or you will find that in remodeling the restaraunt to attract more seasonal traffic you alienate and kill the local, regular traffic that KEEPS YOU IN BUSINESS LONG-TERM. Do you not also benefit from all the faster ways to gain SP? Or do you have EVERYTHING at lvl 5 When you started did you need an academy to teach you how to play because so many others had 50+ million SP? If your playing for the RPG value should you not be in FW or PC? You know where winning and losing matters? If you order a large pizza do they bring you a extra large? FW and PC matches are having squad size increased If you order a pint do they bring you a pitcher? FW and PC matches are having squad size increased Do they give you a 2nd phd for only getting 1? FW and PC matches are having squad size increased Some times you need to alienate those regulars because they are douche bags and running off new potential paying customers as they hang out all day and only order a soda. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1796	Posted - 2015.01.18 00:15:00 - [150] - Quote Thought this thread was about eliminating AFK. Who would moan about that?

voidfaction Nos Nothi 1018	Posted - 2015.01.18 00:30:00 - [151] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Thought this thread was about eliminating AFK. Who would moan about that? I thought I hit the suggestion squad size thread notification. as far as AFK. I stuck ruber band around my 2 analog sticks today. Figured **** it. It will be a 1-3 months before they fix pubstomping or AFK so if im in a match less than 5 min and im killed by more than 3 proto suits in pubs and all objectives are red then im going to go smoke while i finish the match in the redline If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1796	Posted - 2015.01.18 00:32:00 - [152] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Thought this thread was about eliminating AFK. Who would moan about that? I thought I hit the suggestion squad size thread notification. I was referring to El Operator. He seems really upset.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1018	Posted - 2015.01.18 00:37:00 - [153] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: voidfaction wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Thought this thread was about eliminating AFK. Who would moan about that? I thought I hit the suggestion squad size thread notification. I was referring to El Operator. He seems really upset. OH, I still don't even know what this thread is about, lol Seen EL Operator and though it was about the squad size and replied quickly noticed my post was not on the squad size post and come back and though it was the SP cap and min post. Damn now I have to read all of it to know where I am. Guess Ill drink a beer after this big **** up. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 7238	Posted - 2015.01.18 00:44:00 - [154] - Quote @ El Operator Many of us vets didn't have to contend with people who had 40, 50, and 60 million SP and millions and billions of ISK stashed away. The NPE is attrocious, and I think that fixing skill points in this way prevents vets from AFKing, and gives noobs some legs to stand on. As a vet, you should be happy CCP is trying to make this game better. That they are trying to retain new people and bring in vets who have left because the game was so imperfect. CCP has given vets who have stuck around through all the problems hope that our time and efforts in game were not in vain. Being upset because improvements are being made and that new players won't have to go through the same was inevitable if any progress whatsoever was made, and is the result of our continued efforts. Being indignant about that eventuality, in my opinion, is petty and small minded. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 747	Posted - 2015.01.18 04:54:00 - [155] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Do you not also benefit from all the faster ways to gain SP? Or do you have EVERYTHING at lvl 5 Yes, just like everyone else, I benefit from the methods I choose to make the effort for. When you started did you need an academy to teach you how to play because so many others had 50+ million SP? Need? Hell yeah it was needed. Did I learn to adapt and make do without it BY facing what were essentially the games beta testers and their significant SP advantage on a regular basis in pubs? Yes, I did. If your playing for the RPG value should you not be in FW or PC? You know where winning and losing matters? I am active in both, regularly. Also, I am a member of the "NoFullProtoInPubs" minority of gameplayers, and have been for a very, very long time. If you order a large pizza do they bring you a extra large? FW and PC matches are having squad size increased If you order a pint do they bring you a pitcher? FW and PC matches are having squad size increased Do they give you a 2nd phd for only getting 1? FW and PC matches are having squad size increased None of this makes any relevant sense to the topic here. Is the comparison that somehow increasing the number of people in a squad will offset or compensate for the loss of SP accrual for being an experienced player? I wasn't aware of squad size changes but aside from OB aquisition (which experienced squads don't have a ton of issue with) the point is ? insofar as diminshed SP rewards go? Some times you need to alienate those regulars because they are douche bags and running off new potential paying customers as they hang out all day and only order a soda. [b] Newsflash, business 101: You NEVER eliminate an existing revenue stream in favor of a hypothetical one. Will new people MAYBE come, MAYBE pay? MAYBE. Are the existing guys there paying? Yes, so don't **** them off OR No, in which case f' em. [Wrong thread but still fits a little with the topic] Noobs need a way to catch up and I see nothing wrong with changes to be made to allow it. Noobs have more ways to catch up than ever. Do they need more? Ok, then, give them more. Go read my posting history, you'll find me repeatedly advocating on helping noobs, both in supporting adding SP acceleration, adding that CORE SKILLS should be visibly prioritized in the skilltree as well as being a part of the current "Last District Rule" in PC. Just a couple of examples, off the top of my head. I am not saying that noobs don't need help. I'm not saying there shouldn't be some mechanism that gets them up and running faster. I'm saying don't stifle my progression as a method of stimulating theirs. I spend my time, I spend my money, I deserve to progress uninhibited. Financial Investing 101: Once returns begin to diminish over time, investment funds are reallocated to other, more rewarding investments. Investor gets back less, dollar for dollar, Investor puts in less. Period. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1798	Posted - 2015.01.18 05:18:00 - [156] - Quote I still don't understand what all the fuss is about ... * Implement a baseline activity requirement to deter AFK * Safeguard the newbros from said baseline requirement ^ What is fundamentally wrong with this concept?
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 747	Posted - 2015.01.18 05:22:00 - [157] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: voidfaction wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Thought this thread was about eliminating AFK. Who would moan about that? I thought I hit the suggestion squad size thread notification. I was referring to El Operator. He seems really upset. This thread is about restructuring SP generation to both help the NPE as well as punish AFK. Both of which are entirely noble and worthwhile goals. I'm upset, yes, because the proposal as is presents as a conerstone the idea that "Veteran" players will accrue SP at a slower ratio per WarPoint once their WP total exceeds a certain amount. That is my problem with this proposal. I am being penalized for having spent the last 2 years playing this game and supporting CCP financially through this game. And its crazy to me that anyone who can think past what happens at 15 or 25M SP, or w/e the final definition of a "Vet" becomes, would consider this a good idea. You idiots are perpetuating the grind onto yourselves which I wouldn't care about EXCEPT you're perpetuating it for me too! You folks are advocating to have your own progression hamstrung at the higher levels on some false premise that doing so will suddenly 180-¦ the NPE!! You want to 180-¦ the NPE? Add those guides that were proposed that were ideafarmed for content a couple months back!! Even out the matchmaking!! AutoSquad Noobs based on their SP! And a hundred other ideas the forums have proposed in the last two years. Extend the Academy some more, add a tier to it that noobs can go back into which is Meta-controlled and SP capped until they're farther along! Add Meta-level capped gamemodes!! etc etc etc. But don't start ******* with my progression or it's rate, I earned my progress and deserve to be able to continue progressing unimpeded moving forward. Unless these "New Players" are automatically allocated 50million SP and 2 years familiarity and experience in the game they aren't going to be evenly keeled with me or Vets like me anyways . What there'll be, is New Players paying less in both time and MONEY to receive more while individuals such as myself STOP paying altogether, since continuing progression will NOT be worth it. We'll just rack our passive (till that dissappears b/c, y' know, passive SP is OP) so we have something to spend on the rare occasion we actually decide to turn the game on and play. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 747	Posted - 2015.01.18 05:38:00 - [158] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: @ El Operator Many of us vets didn't have to contend with people who had 40, 50, and 60 million SP and millions and billions of ISK stashed away. The NPE is attrocious, and I think that fixing skill points in this way prevents vets from AFKing, and gives noobs some legs to stand on. As a vet, you should be happy CCP is trying to make this game better. That they are trying to retain new people and bring in vets who have left because the game was so imperfect. CCP has given vets who have stuck around through all the problems hope that our time and efforts in game were not in vain. Being upset because improvements are being made and that new players won't have to go through the same was inevitable if any progress whatsoever was made, and is the result of our continued efforts. Being indignant about that eventuality, in my opinion, is petty and small minded. I am all about the NPE being improved upon and noobs getting more help and resources made available to them than were even possible to me when I was among them. I am NOT about the part of the proposal that looks to limit Veteran player SP accrual by introducing some decending SP return on WarPoints past a certain point. THAT is my problem with this idea. Accelerate Noob SP accrual to some value (8, 10, 12Million SP)? SURE. Cap "Veteran" SP accrual potential after some certain threshold ( 10M, 25M, 40Million lifetime)? **** No! THAT is NOT an "Improvement". THAT is an albatross, slung around the neck of every player who persists in what is supposed to be a " persistent universe". Congratulations, You've made it so far that now you get go the rest of the way [ b] slower [/b] for no other reason than that you've been able to get this far! How is it "small minded " to NOT like that idea? How is it "large minded" to approve of that? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1021	Posted - 2015.01.18 05:45:00 - [159] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: voidfaction wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Thought this thread was about eliminating AFK. Who would moan about that? I thought I hit the suggestion squad size thread notification. I was referring to El Operator. He seems really upset. This thread is about restructuring SP generation to both help the NPE as well as punish AFK. Both of which are entirely noble and worthwhile goals. I'm upset, yes, because the proposal as is presents as a conerstone the idea that "Veteran" players will accrue SP at a slower ratio per WarPoint once their WP total exceeds a certain amount. That is my problem with this proposal. I am being penalized for having spent the last 2 years playing this game and supporting CCP financially through this game. And its crazy to me that anyone who can think past what happens at 15 or 25M SP, or w/e the final definition of a "Vet" becomes, would consider this a good idea. You idiots are perpetuating the grind onto yourselves which I wouldn't care about EXCEPT you're perpetuating it for me too! You folks are advocating to have your own progression hamstrung at the higher levels on some false premise that doing so will suddenly 180-¦ the NPE!! You want to 180-¦ the NPE? Add those guides that were proposed that were ideafarmed for content a couple months back!! Even out the matchmaking!! AutoSquad Noobs based on their SP! And a hundred other ideas the forums have proposed in the last two years. Extend the Academy some more, add a tier to it that noobs can go back into which is Meta-controlled and SP capped until they're farther along! Add Meta-level capped gamemodes!! etc etc etc. But don't start ******* with my progression or it's rate, I earned my progress and deserve to be able to continue progressing unimpeded moving forward. Unless these "New Players" are automatically allocated 50million SP and 2 years familiarity and experience in the game they aren't going to be evenly keeled with me or Vets like me anyways . What there'll be, is New Players paying less in both time and MONEY to receive more while individuals such as myself STOP paying altogether, since continuing progression will NOT be worth it. We'll just rack our passive (till that dissappears b/c, y' know, passive SP is OP) so we have something to spend on the rare occasion we actually decide to turn the game on and play. CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Two formulas, one for New Players and one for Veteran Players. The New Players will be awarded more SP per BattleSecond and less per War Point, the reverse for Veterans. Now Veterans have a higher upside, but they need to do something in battle so AFKing will be rather worthless for Veterans. New Players will not be stuck in a situation they can't get out of, while they learn the game. Attributes: New Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = A (integer) Veteran Player Skill Points/BattleSecond = B (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = C (integer) New Player Skill Points/War Point = D (integer) Noob gets more SP for TIME (BattleSecond) in battle and LESS per WP Vet gets less SP for TIME (BattleSecond) in battle and MORE per WP I have no problem getting MORE SP per WP and less for BattleSecond because I don't do nothing in battle (except for today, lol) and if your active like you say then you should benefit with higher SP as well. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 747	Posted - 2015.01.18 05:51:00 - [160] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: I still don't understand what all the fuss is about ... * Implement a baseline activity requirement to deter AFK * Safeguard the newbros from said baseline requirement ^ What is fundamentally wrong with this concept? I have 0 problem with that. I am exceptionally leery of the The Proposal wrote: "... there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay..." part for Veterans, since CCP has shown time after time, patch after patch, fix after fix, that they have little to no real concept of what goes for "normal gameplay" outside of the test server. You want to cap SP after a certain WP level for the guys who spent the time to learn AND the time to be able to build the fits to succeed? That is some garbage right there. But a "New" player accrues hand over fist? I'm calling BS on this part of this idea, right now. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1798	Posted - 2015.01.18 06:14:00 - [161] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I am exceptionally leery of the The Proposal wrote: "... there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay..." part for Veterans, since CCP has shown time after time, patch after patch, fix after fix, that they have little to no real concept of what goes for "normal gameplay" outside of the test server. You want to cap SP after a certain WP level for the guys who spent the time to learn AND the time to be able to build the fits to succeed? That is some garbage right there. But a "New" player accrues hand over fist? I'm calling BS on this part of this idea, right now. Ahhh. I took this to mean we'd mechanically safeguard against boosting. Though I do remember Djinn Marauder triggering a "booster guard" through legitimate play sometime back. Then again, that was the old dev team :-)
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 7252	Posted - 2015.01.18 20:42:00 - [162] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I am exceptionally leery of the The Proposal wrote: "... there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay..." part for Veterans, since CCP has shown time after time, patch after patch, fix after fix, that they have little to no real concept of what goes for "normal gameplay" outside of the test server. You want to cap SP after a certain WP level for the guys who spent the time to learn AND the time to be able to build the fits to succeed? That is some garbage right there. But a "New" player accrues hand over fist? I'm calling BS on this part of this idea, right now. Ahhh. I took this to mean we'd mechanically safeguard against boosting. Though I do remember Djinn Marauder triggering a "booster guard" through legitimate play sometime back. Then again, that was the old dev team :-) I agree, I think it is preemptive to say that this will be a hindrance to vets until we see where the cap is. Some people boost, and there are even more pub stompers out there. I don't see why we should jump to drastic conclusions before we know what the upper limit is. I think that both boosters and pub stompers are something that I would encourage to have drastically reduced if done in a reasonable manner. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1805	Posted - 2015.01.18 21:09:00 - [163] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Some people boost, and there are even more pub stompers out there. I don't see why we should jump to drastic conclusions before we know what the upper limit is. I think that both boosters and pub stompers are something that I would encourage to have drastically reduced if done in a reasonable manner. I understand and support the need to deter boosting, but why would we implement diminishing returns for legitimate, high-end performance? Other shooters do the exact opposite; the better a player performs, the bigger his killstreak rewards (for example). I'm of the opinion that we should be encouraging players to play their best, and appropriately rewarding (rather than punishing) those who do so. Pubstomping, in my humble opinion, is an altogether separate issue.
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 1265	Posted - 2015.01.18 22:41:00 - [164] - Quote i can see where EL Operator is coming from. i'd assumed that any thresholds wouldnt be an issue to anyone if they were set high enough. then again as said, CCP do have a track record for horrendous over nerfing / buffing with no quick way of undoing or tweaking it. i wonder what a week of no proto in pubs would bring to the field. that could be really fun, or could prove that its not proto that is OP. or both. i wonder what we might call that event ;-) You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 80	Posted - 2015.01.21 04:07:00 - [165] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: voidfaction wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To prevent exploits, there will be no Skill Points granted to Veterans with less than minimum War Points. Attributes: Veteran Minimum War Point Threshold = M (WP) Please discuss and propose numbers 800 higher if you add WP for team scan kills for solo players like me. In 50 clone ambush? Really? But anyway, stating the obvious here, the threshold has to be different for different game modes. CCP Rattati wrote: 2) To prevent War Point exploits, there will be diminishing returns above a certain number of War Points, a high number that is "next to impossible" to reach with normal gameplay I am very curious, though, what you consider this "next to impossible" amount of WP to be... Numbers significantly higher than 2500 are deeply hard to hut without being a logi spammer. Anything above 3000 is impossible without boosting or being in the top 0.5% native shooter badass player category. Since they are outliers they should not be used as a balancing factor. ^This Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 80	Posted - 2015.01.22 00:25:00 - [166] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Unless I read it wrong, I am worried about the sudden jump from being classified as "New Player" and "Veteran". If your earnings suddenly drop like a rock, just because you are now a "Veteran", it might **** off players. I would prefer if the system was more dynamic with the amount of lifetime SP a character has, so a player linearly grows from being reliant on passive SP to active WP. I.e: Not 11,999,999 SP = New Player 12,000,000 SP = Veteran Staggered over time makes alot of sense.maybe 1) 0-5 million Rrookie 2) 5-8 million Seasoned 3) 8-10 million Vet 4) 10-12 million Seasoned Vet 5) 12 million + Experienced Vet Something like this? 1-4 blueberry 4-8 green 8-15 soldier 15-20 Spartan 20-30 Veteran 30-50 Proto Bear 50+ Harbinger of Destruction 100+ The walking dead for they have no life :) Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
Talon Paetznick II Gallente Federation Resistance 74	Posted - 2015.01.23 02:52:00 - [167] - Quote calculate across the board using an formula that takes the average WP for people on your team and if people exceed others past a certain extent more than 600 WP between wo places than those ranking above said player have a different turnout of sp gain if the flat average sucks because of say a protostomp they all receive a flat rate sp gain and the other teams vet scored players have sp and isk docked by say 50% this will only occur if one team has a total war point balance that is far higher than the other team on a percentage basis if a team has an amount of warpoints triple that of the other payouts start getting reduced all proper murder is premeditated, that's what makes new Eden fun acidental mansluaghter charges in FW however are not

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15520	Posted - 2015.01.23 07:44:00 - [168] - Quote Thanks everyone, all feedback appreciated! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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