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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3568
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Posted - 2014.12.14 01:05:00 -
[361] - Quote
So, the regular armor plates are getting a nerf? Are the ferroscale and reactive plates getting a nerf as well or will they remain untouched? I'm not asking for a nerf just clarification.
> Check RND out here
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
13605
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Posted - 2014.12.14 03:53:00 -
[362] - Quote
After reading this thread, and going back and forth on the numbers, I am not so sure any more that armor is overall more viable than shield tanking. I do know that high speed high tanked roles suffer from hit detection issues/high strafe speeds. I may tackle that instead of a HP nerf of plates or a smaller HP nerf. I want players to use reactives and ferros so they will not be touched.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Cavani1EE7
Murphys-Law
602
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Posted - 2014.12.14 04:24:00 -
[363] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I do know that high speed high tanked roles suffer from hit detection issues/high strafe speeds. I may tackle that.
Are you saying that you are considering a native strafe nerf on armor suits?
CCP Rattati wrote:I want players to use reactives and ferros so they will not be touched.
Problem is, they already are much more used than armor plates.
Ferroscales and reactives can still put you at high HP amounts without hurting your strafe speed (A gallente assault with three ferroscales reaches 600 armor HP and still has two slots for armor repairers and/or other stuff).
Quote:
After reading this thread, and going back and forth on the numbers, I am not so sure any more that armor is overall more viable than shield tanking.
It is, hence why there are close to zero Caldari assaults that are exclusively shield tanked (I.E. those who don't have armor modules on their low slots) and Minmatar assaults with more shield HP (with regen modules) than armor HP.
Take a bow
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Cavani1EE7
Murphys-Law
602
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Posted - 2014.12.14 05:03:00 -
[364] - Quote
Here some reasonable and valid tweaks not involving an armor tanking nerf to make Shield Tanking more viable and to actually be a thing on the battlefield
Threshold damage to stop the regen - amount of damage to be tanken to stop regen = regen rate (hp/s) or a high percentage of it
Shield extenders HP buff and/or Complex Shield Extenders PG 11 > 9
A whatever kind of shield equipment
Scrambler Rifle profile to +15% | -15% from +20% | -20%
The last two are not needed as much as the other two but would still be very efficient to see some shield tankers on the battlefield.
Take a bow
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
573
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Posted - 2014.12.14 05:08:00 -
[365] - Quote
Cavani1EE7 wrote:
Threshold damage to stop the regen - amount of damage to be tanken to stop regen = regen rate (hp/s) or a high percentage of it
Scrambler Rifle profile to +15% | -15% from +20% | -20%
These two seem really cool, but I think the implementation of the first thing would take a patch to do.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1162
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Posted - 2014.12.14 05:09:00 -
[366] - Quote
1. If HP levels are to remain as they are, I very much hope that down the road Mobility and HP develop more of an inverse relationship. A fragile speed build with 300HP shouldn't have a hard time keeping up with a slayer unit with 900HP. Not asking for anything crazy like 300% weaker so 300% faster; simply something better than the current 300% weaker and 10% faster.
2. I remain of the opinion that the HP gap between properly dampened Scouts and properly tanked Heavies is untenable. That said, I don't know how we might reign in Sentinel HP without crippling them now that 1000HP Assaults are the norm. A given AM Sentinel may have 5x a Scout's HP, but he only has 1.5x the nearest Assault's. Not sure how to address the gap between HP extremes, but I believe the gap to be a problem.
3. 100% in favor of deliberate strafe and counterstrafe, but the wiggle-wiggling is ridiculous. And it isn't limited to Scouts. |
CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2774
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Posted - 2014.12.14 05:20:00 -
[367] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:After reading this thread, and going back and forth on the numbers, I am not so sure any more that armor is overall more viable than shield tanking. I do know that high speed high tanked roles suffer from hit detection issues/high strafe speeds. I may tackle that instead of a HP nerf of plates or a smaller HP nerf. I want players to use reactives and ferros so they will not be touched.
If we were to get equivalent shield equipment to the armour equipment that we already have - I.E Shield repair tools and Shield booster hives, then I could forgive this transgression. 
However your statistics must confirm that armour and full armour tanking is vastly more prevalent than full shield tanking.
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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Funkmaster Whale
Whale Pod
2627
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Posted - 2014.12.14 07:10:00 -
[368] - Quote
I'm honestly baffled that nerfing strafe speeds is something that's on the table. Effective strafing is the only way a low HP suit can outplay brick-tanked Sentinels. Last I checked this was an FPS not a turn-based RPG. You seriously want to make the game more slow paced and ultimately easier for HMGs and laser-accurate Breach ARs?
I just don't know anymore. I've stuck with this game a long time. Nerfing movement speed is just something that makes me entirely lose faith.
Follow me on Twitch.tv!
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1109
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Posted - 2014.12.14 08:35:00 -
[369] - Quote
Hey fellas, just cross pollinating my thread, Small Missiles and ADS Skills: read it here.
Also an older thread containing similar ideas implemented differently: Vehicle Skills and Turret Variations.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1110
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Posted - 2014.12.14 08:40:00 -
[370] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:I'm honestly baffled that nerfing strafe speeds is something that's on the table. Effective strafing is the only way a low HP suit can outplay brick-tanked Sentinels. Last I checked this was an FPS not a turn-based RPG. You seriously want to make the game more slow paced and ultimately easier for HMGs and laser-accurate Breach ARs?
I just don't know anymore. I've stuck with this game a long time. Nerfing movement speed is just something that makes me entirely lose faith.
Honestly, outplaying a brick-tanker should not be about how well you can imitate Neo, it should be about how you have positioned and stacked the odds and environment to your favour using your greater speed/EWar/other advantages. Considering that even the toughest suit goes down in about three seconds, if you get a good drop on someone, you should be able to drop them before you go down, if you've used your advantages correctly.
Quite frankly, the current state of strafing is laughably ridiculous: I see light HP suits (around 3-400) beating medium (5-800) and high (1000+) HP suits simply because they are dancing around in front of them, using none of their actual advantages of speed or EWar. They just run up as if equally tanked and come out on top, even though they really shouldn't.
That's why strafing should be nerfed.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
20179
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Posted - 2014.12.14 08:42:00 -
[371] - Quote
Cavani1EE7 wrote:
Problem is, they already are much more used than armor plates.
Ferroscales and reactives can still put you at high HP amounts without hurting your strafe speed (A gallente assault with three ferroscales reaches 600 armor HP and still has two slots for armor repairers and/or other stuff).
Why is this a problem?
Okay, you have your 591 armour Galassault with two armour repairers.
Let's compare an equal tier Calassault.
Stick 4 shield extenders and a recharger on there and you have a 631 shield Calassault.
HP is a win for the Calassault, let's look at regen.
20 HP/s vs 45 HP/s with 5s delay (which can be reduced using regulators).
Even with the 5s delay, the Calassault will comfortably out-regenerate the Galassault if it drops back to recover for a moment.
If you regulate the shields, the regeneration gap becomes even more pronounced.
Why are ferroscales a problem, then?
Sometimes, one just has an overwhelming urge to throw a potato at someone.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1110
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Posted - 2014.12.14 08:53:00 -
[372] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:If you regulate the shields, the regeneration gap becomes even more pronounced.
Agreed. When shield regeneration is done properly it far outstrips anything armour can achieve. But people are stuck in their HP>All mentality.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Varoth Drac
Titans of Phoenix
513
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Posted - 2014.12.14 10:15:00 -
[373] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:After reading this thread, and going back and forth on the numbers, I am not so sure any more that armor is overall more viable than shield tanking. I do know that high speed high tanked roles suffer from hit detection issues/high strafe speeds. I may tackle that instead of a HP nerf of plates or a smaller HP nerf. I want players to use reactives and ferros so they will not be touched.
It's not that armour and shields are imbalanced, it's that all hp mods are equally too good. They all need nerfing. What if you reduced hp mod hp by 25% across the board?
How about increasing shield extender penalties to discourage stacking. You could add an extender regen penalty as well as the delay penalty, but increase medium and heavy suit base shield regen to compensate.
How about a very small ferroscale plate penalty and a slightly larger reactive plate penalty?
Shield and armour may be balanced(ish). But even if they aren't, hp mods are still too powerful compared to alternatives.
Buffing non-hp mods would be an idea also. How about:
Move codebreakers to highs, reduce fitting cost.
Reduce fitting cost of kinetic catalysers (again).
Range amps are a more complex issue, but they just got nerfed to hell. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
734
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Posted - 2014.12.14 11:32:00 -
[374] - Quote
Cavani1EE7 wrote:Here some reasonable and valid tweaks not involving an armor tanking nerf to make Shield Tanking more viable and to actually be a thing on the battlefield
Threshold damage to stop the regen - amount of damage to be tanken to stop regen = regen rate (hp/s) or a high percentage of it
Shield extenders HP buff and/or Complex Shield Extenders PG 11 > 9
A whatever kind of shield equipment
Scrambler Rifle profile to +15% | -15% from +20% | -20%
The last two are not needed as much as the other two but would still be very efficient to see some shield tankers on the battlefield.
i can get my shield regen to ~160 hp/s
using your idea would make me invincible to most weapons. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
4223
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Posted - 2014.12.14 11:49:00 -
[375] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Cavani1EE7 wrote:Here some reasonable and valid tweaks not involving an armor tanking nerf to make Shield Tanking more viable and to actually be a thing on the battlefield
Threshold damage to stop the regen - amount of damage to be tanken to stop regen = regen rate (hp/s) or a high percentage of it
Shield extenders HP buff and/or Complex Shield Extenders PG 11 > 9
A whatever kind of shield equipment
Scrambler Rifle profile to +15% | -15% from +20% | -20%
The last two are not needed as much as the other two but would still be very efficient to see some shield tankers on the battlefield. i can get my shield regen to ~160 hp/s using your idea would make me invincible to most weapons.
Because most weapons deal less than 160 DPS, yes.
Wait, no they don't.
RE: ideas - I've recently picked up CalLogi, and while I like the suit it doesn't really do the job like my armoured suits do. Buffing extenders somehow might help, but really I think the crux of it is that if I want a full shield tank it takes three types of modules; it's difficult to fit a full tank, let alone even pretending to match the performance of armour plates + reppers.
Used to wonder why people'd hang out on the forums but wouldn't play the game...
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Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
13815
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Posted - 2014.12.14 12:15:00 -
[376] - Quote
Cavani1EE7 wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I do know that high speed high tanked roles suffer from hit detection issues/high strafe speeds. I may tackle that. Are you saying that you are considering a native strafe nerf on armor suits? CCP Rattati wrote:I want players to use reactives and ferros so they will not be touched. Problem is, they already are much more used than armor plates. Ferroscales and reactives can still put you at high HP amounts without hurting your strafe speed (A gallente assault with three ferroscales reaches 600 armor HP and still has two slots for armor repairers and/or other stuff). Quote:
After reading this thread, and going back and forth on the numbers, I am not so sure any more that armor is overall more viable than shield tanking.
It is, hence why there are close to zero Caldari assaults that are exclusively shield tanked (I.E. those who don't have armor modules on their low slots) and Minmatar assaults with more shield HP (with regen modules) than armor HP.
600 armor and 20hp/s vs 640 shields and 52hp/s with a couple of seconds of delay.
Clearly armor needs nerfing.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Zaria Min Deir
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
915
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Posted - 2014.12.14 12:21:00 -
[377] - Quote
Cavani1EE7 wrote:Quote:
After reading this thread, and going back and forth on the numbers, I am not so sure any more that armor is overall more viable than shield tanking.
It is, hence why there are close to zero Caldari assaults that are exclusively shield tanked (I.E. those who don't have armor modules on their low slots) and Minmatar assaults with more shield HP (with regen modules) than armor HP.
So, your supporting evidence for saying armour is better is that shield tankers use armour mods too? Well, how about the fact that a majority of the Gal and Amarr suits out there will have a shield extender (or several) in their highs?
Have you considered installing the improved keyboard?
"Go Go Power Rangers!"
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Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
13815
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Posted - 2014.12.14 12:28:00 -
[378] - Quote
Zaria Min Deir wrote:Cavani1EE7 wrote:Quote:
After reading this thread, and going back and forth on the numbers, I am not so sure any more that armor is overall more viable than shield tanking.
It is, hence why there are close to zero Caldari assaults that are exclusively shield tanked (I.E. those who don't have armor modules on their low slots) and Minmatar assaults with more shield HP (with regen modules) than armor HP. So, your supporting evidence for saying armour is better is that shield tankers use armour mods too? Well, how about the fact that a majority of the Gal and Amarr suits out there will have a shield extender (or several) in their highs?
Can confirm that all of my Gal Assaults use a minimum of one extender.
You cannot survive otherwise in the land of HMG.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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SponkSponkSponk
WarRavens
Capital Punishment.
1117
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Posted - 2014.12.14 12:35:00 -
[379] - Quote
Zaria Min Deir wrote:
So, your supporting evidence for saying armour is better is that shield tankers use armour mods too? Well, how about the fact that a majority of the Gal and Amarr suits out there will have a shield extender (or several) in their highs?
That's due to a lack of resist modules. If resist modules existed, dual tanking would instantly become a niche thing.
Dust/Eve transfers
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Zaria Min Deir
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
915
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Posted - 2014.12.14 12:40:00 -
[380] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:
So, your supporting evidence for saying armour is better is that shield tankers use armour mods too? Well, how about the fact that a majority of the Gal and Amarr suits out there will have a shield extender (or several) in their highs?
That's due to a lack of resist modules. If resist modules existed, dual tanking would instantly become a niche thing.
Could be, but lack of resistance modules has nothing to do with one or the other being more viable.
Have you considered installing the improved keyboard?
"Go Go Power Rangers!"
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
3468
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Posted - 2014.12.14 12:58:00 -
[381] - Quote
One parameter that we can look at is making shields passive but slightly faster than armor repair, and making armor repair slightly but higher in bigger cycles, for example an armor rep would do 8 hp in 3 seconds while a shield rep would do 3 hp in one.
Then, like in EVE, we could have modules that lower the intervals for armor, we then move rechargers, death to regulators, to the low slot which would also end up increasing overall shield hp and now everybody is happy!
You might also like this instead of nerfing hp stacking, https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2514287#post2514287 it is a lot more work to implement than just a raw hp stacking nerf but the end result of this would make the game so much fun!
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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Flint Beastgood III
Carbon 7
Iron Oxide.
1052
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Posted - 2014.12.14 12:59:00 -
[382] - Quote
Jebus McKing wrote:CCP Rattati wrote: * High Hit Point scouts/assaults strafe speeds I think we should wait how the changes for 1.10 work out before we keep hitting scouts with the nerfbat, to be honest. They are getting hit quite a lot lately. CCP Rattati wrote: * Stacking Hit Point Modules I'd still prefer to buff the other modules instead of penalizing HP stacking.
Mhmm, TTK taking another hit by the looks of it... goodbye newbros!
It's looking (to me) like all dropsuits are gonna need a HP buff - the best way to encourage use of other modules (rather than stacking HP mods to overcome short TTK).
Yep
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Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
13816
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Posted - 2014.12.14 13:19:00 -
[383] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:One parameter that we can look at is making shields passive but slightly faster than armor repair, and making armor repair slightly but higher in bigger cycles, for example an armor rep would do 8 hp in 3 seconds while a shield rep would do 3 hp in one. Then, like in EVE, we could have modules that lower the intervals for armor, we then move rechargers, death to regulators, to the low slot which would also end up increasing overall shield hp and now everybody is happy! You might also like this instead of nerfing hp stacking, https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2514287#post2514287 it is a lot more work to implement than just a raw hp stacking nerf but the end result of this would make the game so much fun!
Interesting proposition.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1165
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Posted - 2014.12.14 13:28:00 -
[384] - Quote
Flint Beastgood III wrote:
It's looking (to me) like all dropsuits are gonna need a HP buff - the best way to encourage use of other modules (rather than stacking HP mods to overcome short TTK).
Folks won't touch non-HP modules until they "add value" on par with HP modules. Utility can be equalized only by buffing non-HP modules, nerfing HP modules, or by increasing the penalties of stacking HP modules.
More HP is not the solution to King HP. |
Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1166
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Posted - 2014.12.14 13:34:00 -
[385] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:I'm honestly baffled that nerfing strafe speeds is something that's on the table. Effective strafing is the only way a low HP suit can outplay brick-tanked Sentinels. Last I checked this was an FPS not a turn-based RPG. You seriously want to make the game more slow paced and ultimately easier for HMGs and laser-accurate Breach ARs?
I just don't know anymore. I've stuck with this game a long time. Nerfing movement speed is just something that makes me entirely lose faith.
Is gyrating-in-place an FPS staple? I've played lots of shooters, and I haven't encountered wiggle-wiggling anywhere but here. Here's an example of strafe and counter-strafe as deliberate lateral movements:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2SlbYkzAGo
^ Note the distinct lack of gyrating-in-place. |
BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
3469
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Posted - 2014.12.14 14:07:00 -
[386] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Funkmaster Whale wrote:I'm honestly baffled that nerfing strafe speeds is something that's on the table. Effective strafing is the only way a low HP suit can outplay brick-tanked Sentinels. Last I checked this was an FPS not a turn-based RPG. You seriously want to make the game more slow paced and ultimately easier for HMGs and laser-accurate Breach ARs?
I just don't know anymore. I've stuck with this game a long time. Nerfing movement speed is just something that makes me entirely lose faith. With respect, is gyrating-in-place an FPS staple? I've played lots of shooters, and I haven't encountered wiggle-wiggling anywhere but here. Here's an example of strafe and counter-strafe as deliberate lateral movements: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2SlbYkzAGo^ Note the distinct lack of gyrating-in-place.
Edit: Wiggle-wiggling has less to do with strafe speed than movement mechanics. The "right way" to fix wiggle-wiggling would involve changes to inertia or acceleration. These seem to be non-options ... but that doesn't mean we can ignore the issue.
Notice how when he move side to side his character slows down, instead of changing directions instantly. That is th only problem with strafing in dust. Strafing is a nice fps mechanic, but you need the proper physics for it which dust lacks. Because of that we have to fix strafing by some means, the alternative being the speed.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1168
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Posted - 2014.12.14 14:09:00 -
[387] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:
Notice how when he move side to side his character slows down, instead of changing directions instantly. That is th only problem with strafing in dust. Strafing is a nice fps mechanic, but you need the proper physics for it which dust lacks. Because of that we have to fix strafing by some means, the alternative being the speed.
Yes! Inertia is the key! You'd think our Unreal Engine would have inertia parameters buried somewhere. |
BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
3470
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Posted - 2014.12.14 14:13:00 -
[388] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:
Notice how when he move side to side his character slows down, instead of changing directions instantly. That is th only problem with strafing in dust. Strafing is a nice fps mechanic, but you need the proper physics for it which dust lacks. Because of that we have to fix strafing by some means, the alternative being the speed.
Yes! Inertia is the key! You'd think our Unreal Engine would have inertia parameters buried somewhere.
Well tanks have them, you cant put a tank in full reverse without slowing down first.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1115
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Posted - 2014.12.14 14:29:00 -
[389] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Vitantur Nothus wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:
Notice how when he move side to side his character slows down, instead of changing directions instantly. That is th only problem with strafing in dust. Strafing is a nice fps mechanic, but you need the proper physics for it which dust lacks. Because of that we have to fix strafing by some means, the alternative being the speed.
Yes! Inertia is the key! You'd think our Unreal Engine would have inertia parameters buried somewhere. Well tanks have them, you cant put a tank in full reverse without slowing down first.
We had inertia on dropsuits in Beta. I believe it's just dialed down to minimum. Inertia is vastly preferable to nerfing strafe either directly or indirectly, but if inertia is incompatible for whatever reason then strafe should be nerfed hard to compensate.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Drake Whiteblade
machines of war
0
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Posted - 2014.12.14 16:15:00 -
[390] - Quote
What you should do is leave the regular heavy and commando suit the way they are now, and turn the sentinels into something of a small tank (lot more armor and shield, resistance etc.). Give them a special armor glass "Sentinel armor plates and repairers" and give these armor plates and rep their own skill tree in the armors branch.
Also, because the regular heavy suits would use HMG and Forge guns, give them a special weapon (maybe a stronger HMG of something along the lines) and remove their side arm slot. They would be the ultimate anti-infantry unit.
I might sound like i want an unkillabe suit for myself, but in order to balance it out i came up with this. Make them so the sentinels move at less then half the speed they do now and make them unable to use vehicles and cant spawn at dropuplinks or CRU and are force to walk from mcc.
And give them a bigger frame (not too big so they can still run inside buildings) and give them a large hit box so that they are hard to miss and cant strafe because they are slow.
And weapons shouls still work on them but to a lesser ability, so you would have to use an antivehicle weapon. Giving swarm launchers the ability to lock and fire at these sentinels would be great, and maybe add a new weapon or two to fight them.
In aditions these heavy should be strong enough to destroy an lav and stand against a tank or hav. By stand against i mean be able to do some damage to them and take a few shot from them, but i do not mean they should be able to take out a tank on their own. With 2 more of these sentinels yes but not alone.
It would be a team effort to take down a sentinel, and you shouls give extra warpoints for killing a sentinel. And when buying a sentinel they would cost a great amount of money. The proto sentinel would cost the same as a hav, if not even more.
I dont know how others would think about this, so ill gladly read your feedbacks on this. |
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