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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1097
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Posted - 2014.12.10 06:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:New Packed Remote Explosive STD/ADV/PRO: Current Damage: 1250/1500/1750 DMG +30% Activation Time: 3/3/3 Radius 0.1 Same PG/CPU
Current Remote Explosives STD/ADV/PRO: Activation 5/5/5 These changes look perfectly reasonable. Normal REs are perfectly capable of being used as traps but tossing them into the middle of a group of enemies will yield less results, as with a 5s delay you're much more likely to get gunned down.
The Packed REs sound great: is the +30% damage on top of the numbers you wrote? Or are you increasing them further to be 1625/1950/2275? Or are you going the other way an nerfing normal ones to 875/1050/1225?
Are you considering looking at Proximity Explosives? With the bandwidth changes they are essentially a massive waste of time: you not only have to spend a bunch of time putting them out in places that aren't too open to be of use, but they're also one shot wonders that might not even do anything. If they had similar bandwidth to REs but were more powerful, you'd be able to lay a smaller minefield that's roughly as effective as the current larger ones.
Something like a 1000/1250/1500 tier progression and upping the bandwidth from 2 -> 3; all five PRO PEs would be 7500 damage and 15 Mbit/sec, too much for non-logis to really consider, or allowing non-logis to deploy small traps in support of their AV efforts.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1109
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Posted - 2014.12.14 08:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hey fellas, just cross pollinating my thread, Small Missiles and ADS Skills: read it here. Also an older thread containing similar ideas implemented differently: Vehicle Skills and Turret Variations.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1110
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Posted - 2014.12.14 08:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:I'm honestly baffled that nerfing strafe speeds is something that's on the table. Effective strafing is the only way a low HP suit can outplay brick-tanked Sentinels. Last I checked this was an FPS not a turn-based RPG. You seriously want to make the game more slow paced and ultimately easier for HMGs and laser-accurate Breach ARs?
I just don't know anymore. I've stuck with this game a long time. Nerfing movement speed is just something that makes me entirely lose faith. Honestly, outplaying a brick-tanker should not be about how well you can imitate Neo, it should be about how you have positioned and stacked the odds and environment to your favour using your greater speed/EWar/other advantages. Considering that even the toughest suit goes down in about three seconds, if you get a good drop on someone, you should be able to drop them before you go down, if you've used your advantages correctly.
Quite frankly, the current state of strafing is laughably ridiculous: I see light HP suits (around 3-400) beating medium (5-800) and high (1000+) HP suits simply because they are dancing around in front of them, using none of their actual advantages of speed or EWar. They just run up as if equally tanked and come out on top, even though they really shouldn't.
That's why strafing should be nerfed.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1110
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Posted - 2014.12.14 08:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:If you regulate the shields, the regeneration gap becomes even more pronounced. Agreed. When shield regeneration is done properly it far outstrips anything armour can achieve. But people are stuck in their HP>All mentality.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1115
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Posted - 2014.12.14 14:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Vitantur Nothus wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote: Notice how when he move side to side his character slows down, instead of changing directions instantly. That is th only problem with strafing in dust. Strafing is a nice fps mechanic, but you need the proper physics for it which dust lacks. Because of that we have to fix strafing by some means, the alternative being the speed.
Yes! Inertia is the key! You'd think our Unreal Engine would have inertia parameters buried somewhere. Well tanks have them, you cant put a tank in full reverse without slowing down first. We had inertia on dropsuits in Beta. I believe it's just dialed down to minimum. Inertia is vastly preferable to nerfing strafe either directly or indirectly, but if inertia is incompatible for whatever reason then strafe should be nerfed hard to compensate.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1183
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Posted - 2014.12.21 13:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:One parameter that we can look at is making shields passive but slightly faster than armor repair, and making armor repair slightly slower but higher in bigger cycles, for example an armor rep would do 8 hp in 3 seconds while a shield rep would do 3 hp in one. Then, like in EVE, we could have modules that lower the intervals for armor, we then move rechargers, death to regulators, to the low slot which would also end up increasing overall shield hp and now everybody is happy! You might also like this instead of nerfing hp stacking, https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2514287#post2514287 it is a lot more work to implement than just a raw hp stacking nerf but the end result of this would make the game so much fun! This needs more attention.
Passive shield regen and better armour regen would help the imbalances immensely.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1190
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Posted - 2014.12.22 12:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Shield and armor are completely different types of tanks. Shield tanks aren't supposed to be able to tank through immense amount of damage, they're supposed to be able to run in, do damage, and run out without exhausting their shields. If we do allow shields to be this similar to armor, then it makes the whole point of the system between armor and shields completely pointless.
Shield regen is already greater than armor reps, if passive shield regen is implemented shield suits would completely overshadow armor suits because of their ability to run effective dual regen tank. Yes, maybe shields do need a tad more resistance to armor based weapons, but completely overhauling the system, so that people who don't understand how to fit shield and run suits can prosper is not the way to go.
CHET CHEWS wrote:Agreed, each type of tank depends on your playstyle
Neither of you actually read what I quoted did you? You just jerked that knee like a boss...
Passive shield regen should be superior to armour regen. I never said, nor did BL4CKST4R, that shields should be repping through incoming fire and shrugging it off completely. And if either tanking style should do that, it's shields!
Anyway, shield regen is greater than armour regen in some ways (raw, base numbers) but is entirely insufficient as a 'style' (delays.) Quite frankly, I don't see how BL4CKST4R's idea is complicated: shields rep small amounts every second; armour reps regen a decent chunk every X seconds.
How is that complicated?! Delays are far more complicated, especially when you factor in bonuses/penalties!
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1196
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Posted - 2014.12.22 23:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Why? The current system is fine, it's just that people don't understand how to run and fit shield suits. Why? Because shield suits are inferior in almost every way: - regeneration is higher, but initially a lot slower, making reengagement times very high - regeneration is stopped entirely by the slightest damage, making armour regen fear superior: pop out, poke their shields, hide and continue armour regen - buffer is lower in almost every case, making shields need higher alpha - which armour suits do better because of high slot damage mods.
Essentially, there is no good reason to not change it to a better system: - armour would have higher buffer tank with powerful but slow regen. - shields would have fast, constant regen but lower 'per tick' value with a lower buffer.
Give me a good reason why this system is harder to understand than the current delay system and why it shouldn't be implemented: 'because the current system is fine' is not valid, because it has many inherent flaws that bias it towards armour.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1197
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Posted - 2014.12.23 09:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:It's not that it's hard to understand, it's just unnecessary to overhaul the whole system when small adjustments in the system like shield hardeners, or a ceiling on regen delay, can be made to fix the small inconsistencies. I have used shields in the current system, they work fine for the conservative play style they're meant to play. Hardeners are not unique to shields, and a ceiling on regen delay doesn't make the delay go away; the delay system is simply cumbersome and uninspired, especially considrring they have already created a better system.
gustavo acosta wrote:-If you fit a regulator or 2 on a shield tank suit, the delay is faster than the time it takes for a remote explosive to be active. (less than 5 seconds) ...And? If I fit an armour rep, I've regenerated for all of that time with those two slots.
gustavo acosta wrote:-Regeneration is high enough on a properly shield tanked suit that 1 second of avoiding fire will bring a great amount of Hp back anyway, so "poking at shields" isn't much of an issue either. 1 second of avoiding fire brings you nothing, unless you're a CalScout with double regs...where it will bring you nothing still. Thing is, only Scouts and the most heavily regen tanked suits (looking at 3+ Regs) can get a reasonable delay. The suggestion is not to give shields high, constant regen, it's to give them a low, constant trickle that can't be turned off.
gustavo acosta wrote:-Buffer is supposed to be smaller because shield tankers are supposed to play conservatively, not to mention buffer is easily added onto shield suits because of their ability to use both tanks in a relatively effective manner.(and anti-shield weaponry is less abundant than anti-armor) Define conservatively: is it, "not allowed to defend an objective when the armour tankers inevitably bum rush it because they have the vastly superior short term tank, while still having a good/potentially better regen"? And dual tanking is irrelevant: the goal of almost every HP balance pass is to make dual tanking less attractive - you talk about 'proper' shield suits, but they also have as good armour tanks? Then something is clearly too good about armour/bad about shields!
Guess what, it's almost certainly the delays!
A shield suit can regen much faster if they're of the fight almost entirely for a good 3-6 seconds, but that 3-6 seconds requires the enemy to remain idle. Any tiny bit of damage shuts down your regen instantly: it could be someone spitting saty you from 120m away and doing 0.0001 damage, but now you have to wait 3-6 seconds again. Why is the delay system good?!
gustavo acosta wrote:You could be right that shield tanks do need some sort of buff, but on paper it seems perfectly balanced, or that shield suits need a change because of their ability to use both tanks effectively. Strongly disagree. And I seriously do not understand how the proposed system is less effective in your mind. The current system is passable because we've had it for three years; that does not mean that improving upon the system shouldn't be done. And simply, a passive system where shields regen always (like armour does already!) is not going to break the game unless the numbers are too high - and there's no reason why even 5HP/s base would be ridiculous.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1198
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Posted - 2014.12.24 11:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Poorly written reply that was too complex to address because of bad formatting which would cause pyramid quoting(not to mention it was an unpleasant read). Grow up. Just because you and I disagree doesn't mean you need to act like an arse.
gustavo acosta wrote:A ceiling on regen delay would prevent the complete stopping of regen on shields as opposed to the current system. It doesn't matter if the delay system is "uninspired," it works. It also makes the tanking system more diverse than having both tanks regen in exactly the same manner. "It works" - yes, it literally functions, but it functions with unnecessary restrictions (delays) when a far smoother and more effectivrly balanced system has already been invented: the EVE system, which BL4CKST4R is suggesting we imitate.
Frankly, the EVE style system is far more simple and operates far more like the styles the tanks are supposed to be than the delays do. Delays don't exist in EVE: all of DUST comes from EVE, thus delays shouldn't exist in DUST, if you want accurate tanking styles.
gustavo acosta wrote:Armor repair is greatly inferior to shield regen in terms of base amounts Yes, the base numbers are inferior,but similarly base shield buffer is lower. Regenerating 600 shields in 10 seconds is sort of irrelevant when you only have 400, and when a single point of damage before regeneration has begun stops it completely again then armour has an advantage.
Cover cuts both ways: if the shield tanker is allowed to stay out of sight unmolested for as long as they want at whatever range they want, then so does the armour tanker. Yet things like fluxes exist, both orbital and grenade, which vastly impact upon shields and have no effect on armour. Shields can regen, under optimal circumstances, better than armour: but optimal circumstances are not the normal ones in a fight, where armour has almost every advantage.
gustavo acosta wrote:This coupled with the fact that armor based weapons are more abundant than shield based weapons. Armour: - Mass Driver - Combat Rifle - Rail Rifle - Sniper Rifle - HMG - Forge Gun (I guess, though all but the heaviest sentinel is dead anyway) - Bolt Pistol - Magsec - SMG - Flaylock = 10 if you include the FG, otherwise 9
Shield: - Scrambler Rifle - Laser Rifle - Assault Rifle - Plasma Cannon - Shotgun - Scrambler Pistol - Ion Pistol = 7
Wow, a whole two extra weapons, such a disparity! Considering that part of this is the lack of racial parity, and that any usage bias is because of perceptions, not effectiveness (take the PLC: it's a lot more effective than people give it credit for.) So yes, armour weapons are more commonly seen, though that is hardly an absolute: look at the rise of the Breach AR and the persistently effective ScR.
So frankly, any assertion that one style is affected more than the other is a far cry from reality.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1198
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Posted - 2014.12.24 11:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:It is inferred that smart shield tankers have the advantage over smart armor tankers. The delay becomes moot to a proper shield tank because the delay is shorter than it takes for a remote explosive to be armed. (a ceiling on delay damage would make it so that the shield tank would get the complete 532 hp even when taking damage so in retrospect it is a bad idea.) So, explain, exactly, what this 'ceiling' of yours is: is it a minimum damage received threshold? A delay that kicks in immediately upon the first damage received? Or is it a maximum delay that cannot be risen above, even by things like extenders and their delay penalties?
And what, exactly, makes a 'smart' armour/shield tanker and why, exactly, are shields inherently better? What makes a smart armour tanker dance to the shield tanker's tune?
gustavo acosta wrote:That is to say, if there is a buff to shields, then a nerf to armor on shield suits is in order because it would cause even greater imbalance. I don't disagree: any alteration to any system requires a reassessment of all aspect involved.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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