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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
573
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Posted - 2014.12.14 05:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cavani1EE7 wrote:
Threshold damage to stop the regen - amount of damage to be tanken to stop regen = regen rate (hp/s) or a high percentage of it
Scrambler Rifle profile to +15% | -15% from +20% | -20%
These two seem really cool, but I think the implementation of the first thing would take a patch to do.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
609
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Posted - 2014.12.21 23:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:One parameter that we can look at is making shields passive but slightly faster than armor repair, and making armor repair slightly slower but higher in bigger cycles, for example an armor rep would do 8 hp in 3 seconds while a shield rep would do 3 hp in one. Then, like in EVE, we could have modules that lower the intervals for armor, we then move rechargers, death to regulators, to the low slot which would also end up increasing overall shield hp and now everybody is happy! You might also like this instead of nerfing hp stacking, https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2514287#post2514287 it is a lot more work to implement than just a raw hp stacking nerf but the end result of this would make the game so much fun! This needs more attention. Passive shield regen and better armour regen would help the imbalances immensely.
Shield and armor are completely different types of tanks. Shield tanks aren't supposed to be able to tank through immense amount of damage, they're supposed to be able to run in, do damage, and run out without exhausting their shields. If we do allow shields to be this similar to armor, then it makes the whole point of the system between armor and shields completely pointless.
Shield regen is already greater than armor reps, if passive shield regen is implemented shield suits would completely overshadow armor suits because of their ability to run effective dual regen tank. Yes, maybe shields do need a tad more resistance to armor based weapons, but completely overhauling the system, so that people who don't understand how to fit and run shield suits can prosper is not the way to go.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
611
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Posted - 2014.12.22 19:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:
Neither of you actually read what I quoted did you? You just jerked that knee like a boss...
Passive shield regen should be superior to armour regen. I never said, nor did BL4CKST4R, that shields should be repping through incoming fire and shrugging it off completely. And if either tanking style should do that, it's shields!
Anyway, shield regen is greater than armour regen in some ways (raw, base numbers) but is entirely insufficient as a 'style' (delays.) Quite frankly, I don't see how BL4CKST4R's idea is complicated: shields rep small amounts every second; armour reps regen a decent chunk every X seconds.
How is that complicated?! Delays are far more complicated, especially when you factor in bonuses/penalties!
Passive shield regen is very superior to armor repair. So basically switching armor reps to a non-delay version of shields, and switching shields to armor type regen.
Why? The current system is fine, it's just that people don't understand how to run and fit shield suits.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
612
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Posted - 2014.12.23 00:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Why? The current system is fine, it's just that people don't understand how to run and fit shield suits. Why? Because shield suits are inferior in almost every way: - regeneration is higher, but initially a lot slower, making reengagement times very high - regeneration is stopped entirely by the slightest damage, making armour regen fear superior: pop out, poke their shields, hide and continue armour regen - buffer is lower in almost every case, making shields need higher alpha - which armour suits do better because of high slot damage mods. Essentially, there is no good reason to not change it to a better system: - armour would have higher buffer tank with powerful but slow regen. - shields would have fast, constant regen but lower 'per tick' value with a lower buffer. Give me a good reason why this system is harder to understand than the current delay system and why it shouldn't be implemented: 'because the current system is fine' is not valid, because it has many inherent flaws that bias it towards armour.
It's not that it's hard to understand, it's just unnecessary to overhaul the whole system when small adjustments in the system like shield hardeners, or a ceiling on regen delay, can be made to fix the small inconsistencies. I have used shields in the current system, they work fine for the conservative play style they're meant to play.
-If you fit a regulator or 2 on a shield tank suit, the delay is faster than the time it takes for a remote explosive to be active. (less than 5 seconds)
-Regeneration is high enough on a properly shield tanked suit that 1 second of avoiding fire will bring a great amount of Hp back anyway, so "poking at shields" isn't much of an issue either.
-Buffer is supposed to be smaller because shield tankers are supposed to play conservatively, not to mention buffer is easily added onto shield suits because of their ability to use both tanks in a relatively effective manner.(and anti-shield weaponry is less abundant than anti-armor)
You could be right that shield tanks do need some sort of buff, but on paper it seems perfectly balanced, or that shield suits need a change because of their ability to use both tanks effectively.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
613
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Posted - 2014.12.23 20:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Poorly written reply that was too complex to address because of bad formatting which would cause pyramid quoting(not to mention it was an unpleasant read).
A ceiling on regen delay would prevent the complete stopping of regen on shields as opposed to the current system. It doesn't matter if the delay system is "uninspired," it works. It also makes the tanking system more diverse than having both tanks regen in exactly the same manner.
Armor repair is greatly inferior to shield regen in terms of base amounts so 2 seconds of 10 hp/s is much less than the 76 hp/s, you know a properly fit shield tank. So I'll show some maths: 30hp/s (optimal rep tank), vs 76 hp/s(optimal regen tank) assuming that both players are playing conservatively, and both have lost a greater chunk of their primary tank after 10 seconds of regeneration the armor tank has regained 300 hp, whereas the shield tank has regained 532 hp(assuming shields were completely exhausted, if not 689hp would be the hp regenerated). This coupled with the fact that armor based weapons are more abundant than shield based weapons. It is inferred that smart shield tankers have the advantage over smart armor tankers. The delay becomes moot to a proper shield tank because the delay is shorter than it takes for a remote explosive to be armed. (a ceiling on delay damage would make it so that the shield tank would get the complete 532 hp even when taking damage so in retrospect it is a bad idea.)
Conservatively means not running into areas of concentrated enemies without proper backing. Dual tanking is not irrelevant in this case because it is currently disproportionate to armor tankers, as they cannot shield tank properly/effectively. That is to say, if there is a buff to shields, then a nerf to armor on shield suits is in order because it would cause even greater imbalance. Considering spitting is not a weapon in the game, and cover is very abundant your point becomes moot.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
617
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Posted - 2014.12.24 22:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Still badly formatted response don't blame me for pointing out the obvious, do a better job of formatting your responses so I can respond properly.
It's not unnecessary restrictions, it's a penalty for ludicrously high regeneration rates. Without delays in the current system, shields would be impossible to destroy. Just because Dust is based off EVE doesn't mean we have to imitate every aspect of EVE. Dropsuits, and Ships have various differences so having the two systems be exactly the same wouldn't be plausible. Though if the powers that be dictate that everything in Dust should be exactly as it is in EVE then you would be in the right.
600 hp in 10 seconds is not irrelevant by any means. It's the equivalent of saying a car that can go up 100 mph in less than x amount of time is irrelevant because the speed limit is 75 throughout the state/country. Considering that damage isn't something that just hits you randomly without any provocation, or enemies in the area, the whole 1 point of damage stopping regeneration is moot.(What weapon does 1 hp of damage just to stop shield regen?) Damage is damage, so saying that an armor tanker is not affected by orbitals, grenades, and orbitals(seriously?) is reductio ad absurdum. Shields, even with delay, can regen without optimal circumstances all it takes is 5 seconds of avoiding fire to get back 152 hp(which is a lot). Shields aren't supposed to go charging in with balls hanging out, it goes against their tank's role, especially not without back-up, an armor tank couldn't even do that.
You forgot Av weapons, if any change to dropsuit tanking was to be put in place maddies and gunnies would be affected too. And yes I calculated ALL of the weapons, 61% of them are anti-armor. "Though all but the heaviest sentinel is dead anyway," one of the most ill-informed statements I've ever heard. Not at all dead. Shield heavies are the strongest solo heavies out there, they don't even need logi-support to be effective. It's not a far cry from reality by any means, if we're rebalancing shield and armor disparity then every factor has to be put into balancing genius.
The ceiling would make it so if a suit gets x amount of damage to their shields and regen starts, then it would have to take greater than or equal to that amount to reset the delay. A smart player in general would not run into a group of enemies expecting to survive, they rely on their hp and regeneration in order to prevent immediate death. Shield tankers are much more frustrating to destroy because they have the speed as well as the regeneration rate to avoid fire 1v1 take cover for a couple seconds and comeback with full health that is what a smart shield tanker does.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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