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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1759	Posted - 2014.08.27 04:28:00 - [1] - Quote After numerous threads and many different ideas being thrown about we still don't have a single unified idea of how to balance side-arms. As many have pointed out the Ion Pistol and the Flaylock are both hugely underpowered. The other pistols while better are still poor options compared to the SMG and the Magsec SMG. I previously proposed balancing the pistols around an inverse range to damage relationship with the scrambler pistol as the mid point. BL4CKST4R proposed buffing many of the weapons stats as well as changing the heat mechanic of the ion pistol. Rattati further proposed that since the SMG is the most used weapon all the side arms should actually be balanced with it in mind. Many others also commented that because of its short range the ion pistol needed a much higher DPS than the bolt pistol. Taking these ideas into consideration I have revamped my original spreadsheet. The new sheet incorporates all of the ideas above and assumes the overheat mechanics proposed by BL4CKST4R. Please note that I have have only shown the stats for prototype weapons. These weapons should only be a 10% improvement over basic weapons with advanced ones lying right in the middle (5% weaker than proto 5% more powerful than basic) Ranges should be equalized across weapon tiers (like what was done with pistols). Weapon varients have not been included at this time but should be part of the balancing. I would of crouse like feed back about what to do with them. I am leaning towards the breach flaylock being an AV varient, and a decrease in pershot damage for the assault SMG (to make up for its higher rate of fire). Take a second, look the spread sheet over and make comments. Lets try to build something productive here. Sidearm Balance Spreadsheet Please note that I have included BL4CKST4R's spreadsheet as well so we can easily compare the two. Fun > Realism
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 190	Posted - 2014.08.27 06:58:00 - [2] - Quote So what's the deal with the mag nerf of the magsec? I mean its as close as the caldari get to a CQC sidearm i'm not seeing your thought process behind it. I mean to spite its dps it bearly benefits from aim assist, the majority of the rounds tend to miss anything that isnt strafing. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh
Gabriel Ceja Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 41	Posted - 2014.08.27 07:30:00 - [3] - Quote Those are some interesting numbers but for the Flay lock I believe a way to improve it as a sidearm would be to buff direct damage to about 300 with a splash damage of 240 and a blast radius of 3m. now this may seem OP but the final part is to make all this go along with a one round clip and a 2.5 second reload time. With this you will be able to have less trouble engaging an enemy with the Flay lock but won't be able to go around taking out big groups single handed with it like before even with a commandos reload bonus and the flay locks reload skill at five it won't likely be possible with a constant reloading. "Throw on the flux capacitor." activates fuel injector "WOOOOOO!!!"
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 628	Posted - 2014.08.27 07:38:00 - [4] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: After numerous threads and many different ideas being thrown about we still don't have a single unified idea of how to balance side-arms. As many have pointed out the Ion Pistol and the Flaylock are both hugely underpowered. The other pistols while better are still poor options compared to the SMG and the Magsec SMG. I previously proposed balancing the pistols around an inverse range to damage relationship with the scrambler pistol as the mid point. BL4CKST4R proposed buffing many of the weapons stats as well as changing the heat mechanic of the ion pistol. Rattati further proposed that since the SMG is the most used weapon all the side arms should actually be balanced with it in mind. Many others also commented that because of its short range the ion pistol needed a much higher DPS than the bolt pistol. Taking these ideas into consideration I have revamped my original spreadsheet. The new sheet incorporates all of the ideas above and assumes the overheat mechanics proposed by BL4CKST4R. Please note that I have have only shown the stats for prototype weapons. These weapons should only be a 10% improvement over basic weapons with advanced ones lying right in the middle (5% weaker than proto 5% more powerful than basic) Ranges should be equalized across weapon tiers (like what was done with pistols). Weapon varients have not been included at this time but should be part of the balancing. I would of crouse like feed back about what to do with them. I am leaning towards the breach flaylock being an AV varient, and a decrease in pershot damage for the assault SMG (to make up for its higher rate of fire). Take a second, look the spread sheet over and make comments. Lets try to build something productive here. Sidearm Balance Spreadsheet Please note that I have included BL4CKST4R's spreadsheet as well so we can easily compare the two. SMG is balanced.. just "balance" the other sidearms against the smg insted of nerfing smg into ** mode just to be level with the other sidearms cause of RPers who want their OP SCP back [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah**
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 155	Posted - 2014.08.27 07:58:00 - [5] - Quote Why do people hate the Scrambler Pistol, and Pistols in general? Pistols should do more DPS than SMGs at the cost of less damage per mag. Not less DPS for the cost of less damage per mag. Ideally, pistols should do about 500 DPS, but oldy have between 700-800 DPM.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1761	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:40:00 - [6] - Quote THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: So what's the deal with the mag nerf of the magsec? I mean its as close as the caldari get to a CQC sidearm i'm not seeing your thought process behind it. I mean to spite its dps it bearly benefits from aim assist, the majority of the rounds tend to miss anything that isnt strafing. Well I barely touched it to be honest but the rational was that it had a massive damage per mag, much longer range than the SMG and higher DPS. Overall it just looked too powerful given that its only downside is a short spool up. Honestly though I haven't played with it since it came out so I'll give it a ride again and see how it compares to the SMG. pothecary Za'ki wrote: SMG is balanced.. just "balance" the other sidearms against the smg insted of nerfing smg into ** mode just to be level with the other sidearms cause of RPers who want their OP SCP back That is pretty much what I was trying to do but since the SMG had such a massive damage per mag compared to the pistols it really made more sense to reduce its max ammo capacity. Honestly I find that the SMG is just too good for a sidearm, its actually a better performer than the AR right now so toning down its damage per mag without really doing anything about its DPS was my solution. If you have some number that make more sense to you I'd love to see them an perhaps integrate them into the sheet. Gabriel Ceja wrote:** Those are some interesting numbers but for the Flay lock I believe a way to improve it as a sidearm would be to buff direct damage to about 300 with a splash damage of 240 and a blast radius of 3m. now this may seem OP but the final part is to make all this go along with a one round clip and a 2.5 second reload time. With this you will be able to have less trouble engaging an enemy with the Flay lock but won't be able to go around taking out big groups single handed with it like before even with a commandos reload bonus and the flay locks reload skill at five it won't likely be possible with a constant reloading. That is an interesting idea for sure but it would give the flaylock a very low DPS and with only one shot per mag it would really be an extremely high skill weapon. I worry that it would still be all but totally unused. What do others think about this idea? I can definitely change my numbers more in this direction if this is what the community is interested in. Almost all of this feed back is nice and productive. I haven't made any changes yet since we haven't gotten enough comments to really get some community consensus but I will make changes if there is a ton of support for how to alter the weapons for the good of all. Fun > Realism

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 5886	Posted - 2014.08.28 08:10:00 - [7] - Quote Extremely helpful, am finalizing the Delta proposal with the CPM and this is very useful. Thanks! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2354	Posted - 2014.08.28 08:18:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Extremely helpful, am finalizing the Delta proposal with the CPM and this is very useful. Thanks! You mean I might feel obligated to put SP into sidearms soon? I just might die of shock. And please make the flaylock viable again. Just not OP.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 5888	Posted - 2014.08.28 08:58:00 - [9] - Quote I have 5M SP waiting for a sidearm... "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3996	Posted - 2014.08.28 09:01:00 - [10] - Quote Hey Mobius, this is really great work. :) You should email me sometime! o7 B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought

voidfaction Nos Nothi 441	Posted - 2014.08.28 09:42:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I have 5M SP waiting for a sidearm... If you need 5M for a side arm it must mean the Ion Pistol is going to get fixed real good. Because the only other one for 5M is the SMG and there is/was no reason to save for it as it was already the best.
Mauren NOON The Exemplars 422	Posted - 2014.08.28 09:54:00 - [12] - Quote I don't see why you want to nerf the magsec so much.......The SMG is far superior. If anything the magsec needs a slight buff because of the huge dispersion and kick Scr and commando enthusiast. A commando is not just a suit, but a way of life... "The only thing to fear is fear itself"
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3998	Posted - 2014.08.28 09:57:00 - [13] - Quote Magsec needs to have a better scope, and needs less kick when aimed down sight. DPS feels fine. the SMG needs more kick as there is practically none. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 17448	Posted - 2014.08.28 11:00:00 - [14] - Quote Hipfire accuracy on the ion pistol is -extremely important-. That really, really needs an improvement. Sometimes I feel as if I've encountered the limits of human stupidity. And then, once more, I return to the forums.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2956	Posted - 2014.08.28 11:07:00 - [15] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Hipfire accuracy on the ion pistol is -extremely important-. That really, really needs an improvement. I have always found it strange that the ion pistol has the worst hip fire of any weapon yet it has the lowest range aside from the shotty, even then the shotgun has better hip fire. It should be reduced to be slightly larger or to the same size as an AR. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6761	Posted - 2014.08.28 11:44:00 - [16] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Magsec needs to have a better scope, and needs less kick when aimed down sight. DPS feels fine. the SMG needs more kick as there is practically none. 2x Scope would be perfect, possibly like the RDS for the scrambler. I told ya the DPS was fine FA's Stabber Extraordinaire Minmatar Enthusiast Explosions and Bulletstorm? Count me in!
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6761	Posted - 2014.08.28 11:47:00 - [17] - Quote I approve of Blackstar's Core Flaylock buff. Mobius' on the other hand? NO. I wouldn't touch the ROF on the Flaylock with a 10ft. pole. That is the MAIN reason why it got nerfed. Besides, turning it into a spam-cannon isn't the solution. Higher ROF and Clip size means you have more bullets to waste. Just give it more damage if you need to kill people. FA's Stabber Extraordinaire Minmatar Enthusiast Explosions and Bulletstorm? Count me in!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4564	Posted - 2014.08.28 15:21:00 - [18] - Quote ^ Ghost Kaisar knows his Flaylock Pistols Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2361	Posted - 2014.08.28 15:36:00 - [19] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: I approve of Blackstar's Core Flaylock buff. Mobius' on the other hand? NO. I wouldn't touch the ROF on the Flaylock with a 10ft. pole. That is the MAIN reason why it got nerfed. Besides, turning it into a spam-cannon isn't the solution. Higher ROF and Clip size means you have more bullets to waste. Just give it more damage if you need to kill people. Keep the low fire rate +2/clip. Faster projectile.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6767	Posted - 2014.08.28 16:01:00 - [20] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: I approve of Blackstar's Core Flaylock buff. Mobius' on the other hand? NO. I wouldn't touch the ROF on the Flaylock with a 10ft. pole. That is the MAIN reason why it got nerfed. Besides, turning it into a spam-cannon isn't the solution. Higher ROF and Clip size means you have more bullets to waste. Just give it more damage if you need to kill people. Keep the low fire rate +2/clip. Faster projectile. Faster Projectile, Same clip size, buff direct damage, unify splash at 1.5m across the tiers FA's Stabber Extraordinaire Minmatar Enthusiast Explosions and Bulletstorm? Count me in!

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2367	Posted - 2014.08.28 16:22:00 - [21] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: I approve of Blackstar's Core Flaylock buff. Mobius' on the other hand? NO. I wouldn't touch the ROF on the Flaylock with a 10ft. pole. That is the MAIN reason why it got nerfed. Besides, turning it into a spam-cannon isn't the solution. Higher ROF and Clip size means you have more bullets to waste. Just give it more damage if you need to kill people. Keep the low fire rate +2/clip. Faster projectile. Faster Projectile, Same clip size, buff direct damage, unify splash at 1.5m across the tiers Five. That way your magazine lasts approximately as long as another sidearm. Past that I think the flay should be the most cautiously buffed.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6783	Posted - 2014.08.28 19:19:00 - [22] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: I approve of Blackstar's Core Flaylock buff. Mobius' on the other hand? NO. I wouldn't touch the ROF on the Flaylock with a 10ft. pole. That is the MAIN reason why it got nerfed. Besides, turning it into a spam-cannon isn't the solution. Higher ROF and Clip size means you have more bullets to waste. Just give it more damage if you need to kill people. Keep the low fire rate +2/clip. Faster projectile. Faster Projectile, Same clip size, buff direct damage, unify splash at 1.5m across the tiers Five. That way your magazine lasts approximately as long as another sidearm. Past that I think the flay should be the most cautiously buffed. Four Shots, with buffed direct damage. Final offer. FA's Stabber Extraordinaire Minmatar Enthusiast Explosions and Bulletstorm? Count me in!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2367	Posted - 2014.08.28 20:02:00 - [23] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: I approve of Blackstar's Core Flaylock buff. Mobius' on the other hand? NO. I wouldn't touch the ROF on the Flaylock with a 10ft. pole. That is the MAIN reason why it got nerfed. Besides, turning it into a spam-cannon isn't the solution. Higher ROF and Clip size means you have more bullets to waste. Just give it more damage if you need to kill people. Keep the low fire rate +2/clip. Faster projectile. Faster Projectile, Same clip size, buff direct damage, unify splash at 1.5m across the tiers Five. That way your magazine lasts approximately as long as another sidearm. Past that I think the flay should be the most cautiously buffed. Four Shots, with buffed direct damage. Final offer. You forgot the projectile that's harder to dodge. I'm beginning to think you're not taking this negotiation seriously.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6785	Posted - 2014.08.28 20:21:00 - [24] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Keep the low fire rate +2/clip. Faster projectile. Faster Projectile, Same clip size, buff direct damage, unify splash at 1.5m across the tiers Five. That way your magazine lasts approximately as long as another sidearm. Past that I think the flay should be the most cautiously buffed. Four Shots, with buffed direct damage. Final offer. You forgot the projectile that's harder to dodge. I'm beginning to think you're not taking this negotiation seriously. I thought the faster speed was a given, as we had both agreed on it. The only things we haven't agreed on is the shots in the clip and changes to damage. 1 extra shot isn't bad, but I'm against 5 shots because of the spam ability it can give. I would like the gun to remain a skill shot weapon. Hence why the damage buff is for direct damage. Encouraging people to hit the target directly to deal optimal damage, and keeping the clip small encourages people not missing shots (Which can be fatal since you have so few). I really don't think splash needs to be changed short of unifying the splash radius. It works great as a finisher, it just needs more direct damage so that it can take out targets at full health (But only if you can land the direct shots). Get what I'm saying? FA's Stabber Extraordinaire Minmatar Enthusiast Explosions and Bulletstorm? Count me in!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2367	Posted - 2014.08.28 20:35:00 - [25] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Get what I'm saying? Yup. Dilemma: Scouts. Given the slow fire I find it difficult to catch the little turds in the blast radius much less land a direct hit on them. Any suggestions on how to make the sidearm not utterly useless against a dropsuit that can literally vault over the blast?
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6792	Posted - 2014.08.28 21:24:00 - [26] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Get what I'm saying? Yup. Dilemma: Scouts. Given the slow fire I find it difficult to catch the little turds in the blast radius much less land a direct hit on them. Any suggestions on how to make the sidearm not utterly useless against a dropsuit that can literally vault over the blast? Aim better? Faster projectile speed should help. I mean at the end of the day, you still gotta hit them to kill them. FA's Stabber Extraordinaire Minmatar Enthusiast Explosions and Bulletstorm? Count me in!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2369	Posted - 2014.08.28 21:29:00 - [27] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Get what I'm saying? Yup. Dilemma: Scouts. Given the slow fire I find it difficult to catch the little turds in the blast radius much less land a direct hit on them. Any suggestions on how to make the sidearm not utterly useless against a dropsuit that can literally vault over the blast? Aim better? Faster projectile speed should help. I mean at the end of the day, you still gotta hit them to kill them. The only upshot really is that if you fart hard enough it'll kill most scouts. Just gotta HIT them.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 190	Posted - 2014.08.28 22:51:00 - [28] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: After numerous threads and many different ideas being thrown about we still don't have a single unified idea of how to balance side-arms. As many have pointed out the Ion Pistol and the Flaylock are both hugely underpowered. The other pistols while better are still poor options compared to the SMG and the Magsec SMG. I previously proposed balancing the pistols around an inverse range to damage relationship with the scrambler pistol as the mid point. BL4CKST4R proposed buffing many of the weapons stats as well as changing the heat mechanic of the ion pistol. Rattati further proposed that since the SMG is the most used weapon all the side arms should actually be balanced with it in mind. Many others also commented that because of its short range the ion pistol needed a much higher DPS than the bolt pistol. Taking these ideas into consideration I have revamped my original spreadsheet. The new sheet incorporates all of the ideas above and assumes the overheat mechanics proposed by BL4CKST4R. Please note that I have have only shown the stats for prototype weapons. These weapons should only be a 10% improvement over basic weapons with advanced ones lying right in the middle (5% weaker than proto 5% more powerful than basic) Ranges should be equalized across weapon tiers (like what was done with pistols). Weapon varients have not been included at this time but should be part of the balancing. I would of crouse like feed back about what to do with them. I am leaning towards the breach flaylock being an AV varient, and a decrease in pershot damage for the assault SMG (to make up for its higher rate of fire). Take a second, look the spread sheet over and make comments. Lets try to build something productive here. Sidearm Balance Spreadsheet Please note that I have included BL4CKST4R's spreadsheet as well so we can easily compare the two. There's only one thing wrong with your post... hardly anyone uses the Magsec. There's nothing wrong with the weapon, it's great, but being one of the few weapons having true recoil, people decide to use easier weapons that have no recoil. I find it easy to use, but I never see the poor thing in the killfeed... just because it has recoil... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
LOADED'HORN KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 105	Posted - 2014.08.28 23:31:00 - [29] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: After numerous threads and many different ideas being thrown about we still don't have a single unified idea of how to balance side-arms. As many have pointed out the Ion Pistol and the Flaylock are both hugely underpowered. The other pistols while better are still poor options compared to the SMG and the Magsec SMG. I previously proposed balancing the pistols around an inverse range to damage relationship with the scrambler pistol as the mid point. BL4CKST4R proposed buffing many of the weapons stats as well as changing the heat mechanic of the ion pistol. Rattati further proposed that since the SMG is the most used weapon all the side arms should actually be balanced with it in mind. Many others also commented that because of its short range the ion pistol needed a much higher DPS than the bolt pistol. Taking these ideas into consideration I have revamped my original spreadsheet. The new sheet incorporates all of the ideas above and assumes the overheat mechanics proposed by BL4CKST4R. Please note that I have have only shown the stats for prototype weapons. These weapons should only be a 10% improvement over basic weapons with advanced ones lying right in the middle (5% weaker than proto 5% more powerful than basic) Ranges should be equalized across weapon tiers (like what was done with pistols). Weapon varients have not been included at this time but should be part of the balancing. I would of crouse like feed back about what to do with them. I am leaning towards the breach flaylock being an AV varient, and a decrease in pershot damage for the assault SMG (to make up for its higher rate of fire). Take a second, look the spread sheet over and make comments. Lets try to build something productive here. Sidearm Balance Spreadsheet Please note that I have included BL4CKST4R's spreadsheet as well so we can easily compare the two. There's only one thing wrong with your post... hardly anyone uses the Magsec. There's nothing wrong with the weapon, it's great, but being one of the few weapons having true recoil, people decide to use easier weapons that have no recoil. I find it easy to use, but I never see the poor thing in the killfeed... just because it has recoil... I like most of these streamlined stats in regards to balance. Some of them are rather extreme nerfs though. So, I use the Magsec all the time. Regardless of its higher fitting costs, I'll sacrifice to use it's all around performance. It's best uses are on AV and heavy suits. I also do not mind its recoil, and think the range with damage drop off is appropriate. The spool up time is good and the sights are below average. It is to me a well balanced side arm currently. I would like to use the Bolt pistol more, but here it is, the fitting cost for performance quotient is to high. A general buff would make it appealing. However reducing the rounds on the Magsec would kill it for me. A proposed 35 rounds is much to low. Why does it need a reduction? It's not a spam weapon, it is also out strafed easily. >If you have to, please just make it slightly less.< And having less rounds to drill armor would be very painful for Caldari users. Cheers. First day open beta vet. I look, listen and learn before I run my mouth. You should to.
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 193	Posted - 2014.08.28 23:57:00 - [30] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Magsec needs to have a better scope, and needs less kick when aimed down sight. DPS feels fine. the SMG needs more kick as there is practically none. ^ This Give the magsec a reflex scope or something a little more powerful. Its a rail type weapon so I don't see why the single shot bolt pistol gets a scope while the magsec runs with an iron sight. I run the magsec on just about all of my cal suits scaling with their tier. Although can scopes even be implemented in a hotfix? I understand if it already exists but isn't set to the weapon but if its not is that possible? Planetside 2 Eventually Eh

TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1199	Posted - 2014.08.29 00:19:00 - [31] - Quote Would it be possible to add the Bolt Pistol 'scope' to the Magsec.. then have iron sights on the Bolt...? This could possibly be a way to introduce Variants of those weapons.... I'd like to see an option with Bolt Pistol to be used CQ as thats where the sidarm is needed. Innapropriate Irrelevence... Welcome to the Dust Forum, hang around to see why everyone else left :/
Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 33	Posted - 2014.08.29 02:10:00 - [32] - Quote I really like what I saw on the spreadsheet, it's a really great working you did there! But I disagree with nerfing the SMG so badly. It would kill this good weapon to nerf it so much. Upgrade others as you said (maybe a bit more for the Bolt pistol) but dont touch SMGs please, I think there would be a good balance then. Sorry for my bad english ^^
Zindorak 1.U.P 707	Posted - 2014.08.29 02:11:00 - [33] - Quote As long as ScP and BP get better im in Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 190	Posted - 2014.08.29 02:57:00 - [34] - Quote THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Magsec needs to have a better scope, and needs less kick when aimed down sight. DPS feels fine. the SMG needs more kick as there is practically none. ^ This Give the magsec a reflex scope or something a little more powerful. Its a rail type weapon so I don't see why the single shot bolt pistol gets a scope while the magsec runs with an iron sight. I run the magsec on just about all of my cal suits scaling with their tier. Although can scopes even be implemented in a hotfix? I understand if it already exists but isn't set to the weapon but if its not is that possible? The magsec doesn't really have kick at all, it just bounces up and down to the exact same spot. It just appears to have 'kick' or 'recoil', and It's perfectly accurate, even at 50 or so meters, but after that you'll have damage falloff within a few meters. The thing I found quite odd was that the bolt pistol's model originally had no scope, while the magsec did, and that scope is the one that the bolt pistol has currently... There was also the mention of the suppressor on the magsec, as the model had it (it even does on the weapon selection wheel in game. Is it really that hard to remove the suppressor from the damn icon? That's just lazy in my book.), but the devs stated that it would not receive it, even though the first time we were shown it indeed had a suppressor. Although, I don't find the removal of the suppressor of the magsec an issue, but it's just the whole process that was... strange. That, and the Minmatar heavy's textures looked at little rushed with the release of 1.8. I shouldn't be able to see low res pixels along the entire body, other than head anyway, which retained minute detail and a higher res texture... very strange. Apologies for going off track. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Skullmiser Vulcansu 145	Posted - 2014.08.29 06:46:00 - [35] - Quote The Scrambler Pistol was the first weapon I got to prototype level. I have been unhappy with all sidearms since 1.8. Please return Scrambler pistols to the way they were. If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
Mauren NOON The Exemplars 424	Posted - 2014.08.29 09:45:00 - [36] - Quote Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote: The Scrambler Pistol was the first weapon I got to prototype level. I have been unhappy with all sidearms since 1.8. Please return Scrambler pistols to the way they were. While I wish SCP were back to how they were too, if they were, there would be no reason to skill into an ion or bolt pistol. The SCP was WAY better than the other pistols are now Scr and commando enthusiast. A commando is not just a suit, but a way of life... "The only thing to fear is fear itself"
Skullmiser Vulcansu 145	Posted - 2014.08.29 10:09:00 - [37] - Quote I will not be happy with the sidearms with or without these proposed changes. I want a variant of either the scrambler pistol or the ion pistol to have the same rate of damage as the Carthum Assault Scrambler pistol before 1.8, minus 15%. If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
Cpt McReady Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2014.08.29 11:53:00 - [38] - Quote nothing unbalanced about the SMG, it has short optimal and fitting requirements similar to light weapons, yet it can only dream to match the light weapons dps. all other sidearms require a lower PG, CPU or both to fit. if you want to give the other sidearms such range and DPS combined then you obviously will have to increase their fitting requirements too.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 669	Posted - 2014.08.29 12:01:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Extremely helpful, am finalizing the Delta proposal with the CPM and this is very useful. Thanks! perhaps increase the assault smg dmg and CPU and PG a little so it can be used as a self defence MAIN weapon for logi with out enough pg and cpu for a full on light weapon.. also if you do nerf the smg that would be like spitting in the face of minmatar assaults and their 5% sidearm clip per level which is useless on anything but smg anyway [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 669	Posted - 2014.08.29 12:04:00 - [40] - Quote Cpt McReady wrote: nothing unbalanced about the SMG, it has short optimal and fitting requirements similar to light weapons, yet it can only dream to match the light weapons dps. all other sidearms require a lower PG, CPU or both to fit. if you want to give the other sidearms such range and DPS combined then you obviously will have to increase their fitting requirements too. you have much logic, i wish the player base could also see this logic instead of whineing that a sidearm with stupid high cpu and pg requirments is more op then their SCP which has like 1/2 the requirments.. im not even going too bother talking about ION or flaylock since they are both bad and dont even deserve talking about [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 669	Posted - 2014.08.29 12:06:00 - [41] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Would it be possible to add the Bolt Pistol 'scope' to the Magsec.. then have iron sights on the Bolt...? This could possibly be a way to introduce Variants of those weapons.... I'd like to see an option with Bolt Pistol to be used CQ as thats where the sidarm is needed. leave scope on bolt but add to magsec too since they are longer range weapons.. and tighten the magsecs dispersal so it can actually be useful in the role its supposed to have [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 669	Posted - 2014.08.29 12:13:00 - [42] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: After numerous threads and many different ideas being thrown about we still don't have a single unified idea of how to balance side-arms. As many have pointed out the Ion Pistol and the Flaylock are both hugely underpowered. The other pistols while better are still poor options compared to the SMG and the Magsec SMG. I previously proposed balancing the pistols around an inverse range to damage relationship with the scrambler pistol as the mid point. BL4CKST4R proposed buffing many of the weapons stats as well as changing the heat mechanic of the ion pistol. Rattati further proposed that since the SMG is the most used weapon all the side arms should actually be balanced with it in mind. Many others also commented that because of its short range the ion pistol needed a much higher DPS than the bolt pistol. Taking these ideas into consideration I have revamped my original spreadsheet. The new sheet incorporates all of the ideas above and assumes the overheat mechanics proposed by BL4CKST4R. Please note that I have have only shown the stats for prototype weapons. These weapons should only be a 10% improvement over basic weapons with advanced ones lying right in the middle (5% weaker than proto 5% more powerful than basic) Ranges should be equalized across weapon tiers (like what was done with pistols). Weapon varients have not been included at this time but should be part of the balancing. I would of crouse like feed back about what to do with them. I am leaning towards the breach flaylock being an AV varient, and a decrease in pershot damage for the assault SMG (to make up for its higher rate of fire). Take a second, look the spread sheet over and make comments. Lets try to build something productive here. Sidearm Balance Spreadsheet Please note that I have included BL4CKST4R's spreadsheet as well so we can easily compare the two. im not happy with the proposed more then 2/3 of the dps nerf on smg and MAGsec.. more so the smg as it has higher cpu and pg use then the "pistol" sidearms so of course it should be better! i am however in favour of buffing the SCP ION Bolt and Flay though so then they can be more on par with SMG as i feel its the most balanced sidearm out there as for scp lets not forget the MONSTER headshot multiplier its got will that get a nerf in relation to its dps buff? the Ion just needs a functionality change(allow it to do a few "followup" shots after it fires a charged shot) and a slight damage per shot increase. never used flay so cannot comment bolt pistol is getting some serious use of late with dual sidearm scouts useing bolt as primary and smg as secondary, you need more data. [[LogiBro in Training]] Level 1 Forum Pariah
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1766	Posted - 2014.08.29 16:00:00 - [43] - Quote So here is what I am hearing from everyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly. 1) The two SMG's have higher PG & CPU reqs (making them harder to fit than pistols which offsets their larger damage potential) so leave them alone. Also they are the only side arms that currently work as intended and so should stay as is. I changed the stats back but I must say it really bugs me that the Magsec does more DPS than the SMG even though it has longer range. What if it got a range buff and the RoF reduction to 650 (without changing the mag size) that would make my range/damage balance sense happy without just a flat out nerf for those who love the weapon. 2) Mobius' proposed changes to the flaylock would make it an OP spam machine. Use BL4CKST4R's numbers instead or at least some compromise between the two. Okay I've tried to strive for a nice middle ground here. I buffed the flaylock's damage to 205 while returning its RoF to 125 (current stats) and decreasing the mag size to 4. This would give it the lowest damage per mag of the pistols but it does have a area of affect unlike the others so this may balance it out a bit (its a hard thing to take into account). 4) The scrambler pistol might become too deadly thanks to its headshot bonus and proposed larger mag size. What do the rest of you think of this. Should the Scp have a slightly lower mag capacity to make up for the fact that it has the 450% headshot multiplier? Fun > Realism
Ko7 Ripcord KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 0	Posted - 2014.08.29 16:13:00 - [44] - Quote would be reasonable to make the flaylock a burst fire sidearm, not explosives? I know it would destroy the sunniness of this weapon, but it would be easier to balance.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1766	Posted - 2014.08.29 17:04:00 - [45] - Quote Ko7 Ripcord wrote: would be reasonable to make the flaylock a burst fire sidearm, not explosives? I know it would destroy the sunniness of this weapon, but it would be easier to balance. My issue with that is that it would totally change the flavor of the weapon. Fun > Realism
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1669	Posted - 2014.08.29 17:34:00 - [46] - Quote SMG - No one has ever complained about SMGs being OP. They are the one thing in this game that has always been balanced. Leave as they are. ScP - Not the god mode weapon they were prior to the assault variant RoF reduction but remain very effective. Still kill more quickly than an SMG in the hands of a skilled user. Leave as they are. Magsec SMG - Obviously it's fantastic having that range in a sidearm, so there has to be a tradeoff in terms of damage application. Nevertheless a small buff may be reasonable. Either kick reduction or slight (5% or so) damage increase. Flaylock pistol - They are a little UP but tread VERY carefully. When these were good the game was absolutely horrible. It was frequently used as a primary weapon and explosive spam was everywhere. I would discourage increases to blast radius as it is this, not damage per se, that is the real killer with this weapon - it is impossible to respond once you're hit as your aim is thrown all over the place. Getting that massive advantage over your opponent should remain a matter of skill. Maybe a slight increase to damage would be okay. Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it competes less directly with the shotgun. Ion pistol and bolt pistol - Don't know.
Chit Hoppened The Exemplars 353	Posted - 2014.08.29 17:34:00 - [47] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Ko7 Ripcord wrote: would be reasonable to make the flaylock a burst fire sidearm, not explosives? I know it would destroy the sunniness of this weapon, but it would be easier to balance. My issue with that is that it would totally change the flavor of the weapon. Make it an Explosive Burst Weapon. 3 shot mag that gets emptied with one Burst or a 4 shot mag that is emptied in two. A full Burst should hurt and there is no "real" way to escape Splash but you have to immediately Reload after just one or two pulls of the trigger. With the mentioned Projectile Speed change, this could make the Flaylock a unique and masterful weapon in the proper hands. Bringing Heavy Metal to New Eden. Cannon Fever Representative
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 193	Posted - 2014.08.29 17:35:00 - [48] - Quote It needs no range buff it can hold its own moderatly below the ar's optimal. I mean we don't need magsecs out ranging are considering they're armor slayers. Like I said before aim assist rarely applies when it comes to the magsec as well as the bullet magnetism. Unless they're fixing the aim assist along with it, of the rounds to actually hit someone should be damaging enough to be a dependable cqc choice for caldari users. One on one you're far more likely to win with the smg over the magsec hence its sidearm dominance atm. That's just the way I look at it though if someone else wants to throw their two cents in to either side. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh
Erasmus Konstantin Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 46	Posted - 2014.08.29 17:39:00 - [49] - Quote I like where we're going with the RoF boost to the bolt pistol, but the charge time between shots needs to go. No other automatic rail weapon works like that and it really cuts the dps as shown in the google doc. By all means leave the initial charge time in, in line with the other rail weapons. I wonder if buffing the hipfire would be going too far. I use the bolt pistol a lot, sometimes as a primary for fun, and while it is deadly pinpoint accurate in ADS, it could benefit a little bit more in CQC from having similar hipfire to the scrambler pistol. Both have similar crosshair bloom when continuously firing, but having that first shot accuracy be that much more accurate would lend it more of that 'skillshot' feel. Considering the initial charge time, you really need to make that first shot count, especially in close quarters.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 754	Posted - 2014.08.29 17:47:00 - [50] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: SMG - No one has ever complained about SMGs being OP. They are the one thing in this game that has always been balanced. Leave as they are. ScP - Not the god mode weapon they were prior to the assault variant RoF reduction but remain very effective. Still kill more quickly than an SMG in the hands of a skilled user. Leave as they are. Magsec SMG - Obviously it's fantastic having that range in a sidearm, so there has to be a tradeoff in terms of damage application. Nevertheless a small buff may be reasonable. Either kick reduction or slight (5% or so) damage increase. Flaylock pistol - They are a little UP but tread VERY carefully. When these were good the game was absolutely horrible. It was frequently used as a primary weapon and explosive spam was everywhere. I would discourage increases to blast radius as it is this, not damage per se, that is the real killer with this weapon - it is impossible to respond once you're hit as your aim is thrown all over the place. Getting that massive advantage over your opponent should remain a matter of skill. Maybe a slight increase to damage would be okay. Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. Ion pistol and bolt pistol - Don't know. Explosive spam was only popular because of hit detection issues. Take the Mass Driver, it went from OP, to almost never used, even with the "BUFF" in 1.8. The weapon hasn't been nerfed since the beginning of uprising, it was all QQ.

THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 193	Posted - 2014.08.29 17:47:00 - [51] - Quote Erasmus Konstantin wrote: I like where we're going with the RoF boost to the bolt pistol, but the charge time between shots needs to go. No other automatic rail weapon works like that and it really cuts the dps as shown in the google doc. By all means leave the initial charge time in, in line with the other rail weapons. I wonder if buffing the hipfire would be going too far. I use the bolt pistol a lot, sometimes as a primary for fun, and while it is deadly pinpoint accurate in ADS, it could benefit a little bit more in CQC from having similar hipfire to the scrambler pistol. Both have similar crosshair bloom when continuously firing, but having that first shot accuracy be that much more accurate would lend it more of that 'skillshot' feel. Considering the initial charge time, you really need to make that first shot count, especially in close quarters. The charge between shots is the only thing keeping that weapon from being OP. Take that away and you got a mini semi auto sniper. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh
Erasmus Konstantin Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 46	Posted - 2014.08.29 18:37:00 - [52] - Quote THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: Erasmus Konstantin wrote: I like where we're going with the RoF boost to the bolt pistol, but the charge time between shots needs to go. No other automatic rail weapon works like that and it really cuts the dps as shown in the google doc. By all means leave the initial charge time in, in line with the other rail weapons. I wonder if buffing the hipfire would be going too far. I use the bolt pistol a lot, sometimes as a primary for fun, and while it is deadly pinpoint accurate in ADS, it could benefit a little bit more in CQC from having similar hipfire to the scrambler pistol. Both have similar crosshair bloom when continuously firing, but having that first shot accuracy be that much more accurate would lend it more of that 'skillshot' feel. Considering the initial charge time, you really need to make that first shot count, especially in close quarters. The charge between shots is the only thing keeping that weapon from being OP. Take that away and you got a mini semi auto sniper. The charge mechanic is pointless when you can just change the RoF, it would make it more in line with the other railguns. Also the bolt pistol is already fully automatic, just slow. You would still have the initial charge when you release the trigger and pull it again.
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 193	Posted - 2014.08.29 19:20:00 - [53] - Quote Erasmus Konstantin wrote: THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: Erasmus Konstantin wrote: I like where we're going with the RoF boost to the bolt pistol, but the charge time between shots needs to go. No other automatic rail weapon works like that and it really cuts the dps as shown in the google doc. By all means leave the initial charge time in, in line with the other rail weapons. I wonder if buffing the hipfire would be going too far. I use the bolt pistol a lot, sometimes as a primary for fun, and while it is deadly pinpoint accurate in ADS, it could benefit a little bit more in CQC from having similar hipfire to the scrambler pistol. Both have similar crosshair bloom when continuously firing, but having that first shot accuracy be that much more accurate would lend it more of that 'skillshot' feel. Considering the initial charge time, you really need to make that first shot count, especially in close quarters. The charge between shots is the only thing keeping that weapon from being OP. Take that away and you got a mini semi auto sniper. The charge mechanic is pointless when you can just change the RoF, it would make it more in line with the other railguns. Also the bolt pistol is already fully automatic, just slow. You would still have the initial charge when you release the trigger and pull it again. It is already in line with the other rail tech, not necessarily the infantry weaponry. Its a pocket sized rail turret, emulating that in its design. High damage per round but offset by its charge time between to keep its dps under control. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh
Pseudogenesis Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 391	Posted - 2014.08.29 20:37:00 - [54] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. You want to remove the one thing that made nova knives enjoyable to use? Stabby-stabber extraordinaire
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 191	Posted - 2014.08.29 20:59:00 - [55] - Quote Erasmus Konstantin wrote: THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: Erasmus Konstantin wrote: I like where we're going with the RoF boost to the bolt pistol, but the charge time between shots needs to go. No other automatic rail weapon works like that and it really cuts the dps as shown in the google doc. By all means leave the initial charge time in, in line with the other rail weapons. I wonder if buffing the hipfire would be going too far. I use the bolt pistol a lot, sometimes as a primary for fun, and while it is deadly pinpoint accurate in ADS, it could benefit a little bit more in CQC from having similar hipfire to the scrambler pistol. Both have similar crosshair bloom when continuously firing, but having that first shot accuracy be that much more accurate would lend it more of that 'skillshot' feel. Considering the initial charge time, you really need to make that first shot count, especially in close quarters. The charge between shots is the only thing keeping that weapon from being OP. Take that away and you got a mini semi auto sniper. The charge mechanic is pointless when you can just change the RoF, it would make it more in line with the other railguns. Also the bolt pistol is already fully automatic, just slow. You would still have the initial charge when you release the trigger and pull it again. At standard, with a base of 135 damage, it would become overpowered. There's no question to it. If you were to increase the RoF, then the maximum would be 5-10% increase. Perhaps increasing the magazine by 1-2 rounds would be nice, but it's balanced as is. People just don't tend to like non-spray-and-pray weapons. It's excellent in the right hands. Other rail weapons do work like that btw, with the charge between shots (maybe it doesn't actually charge, but it works the exact same way with it's RoF on turrets). It's just that it isn't displayed with the rail turrets. Once 'charged', you have a set amount of time inbetween shots that are either charging, or simply have a low RoF. There is essentially no difference... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1162	Posted - 2014.08.29 21:05:00 - [56] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Erasmus Konstantin wrote: THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: Erasmus Konstantin wrote: I like where we're going with the RoF boost to the bolt pistol, but the charge time between shots needs to go. No other automatic rail weapon works like that and it really cuts the dps as shown in the google doc. By all means leave the initial charge time in, in line with the other rail weapons. I wonder if buffing the hipfire would be going too far. I use the bolt pistol a lot, sometimes as a primary for fun, and while it is deadly pinpoint accurate in ADS, it could benefit a little bit more in CQC from having similar hipfire to the scrambler pistol. Both have similar crosshair bloom when continuously firing, but having that first shot accuracy be that much more accurate would lend it more of that 'skillshot' feel. Considering the initial charge time, you really need to make that first shot count, especially in close quarters. The charge between shots is the only thing keeping that weapon from being OP. Take that away and you got a mini semi auto sniper. The charge mechanic is pointless when you can just change the RoF, it would make it more in line with the other railguns. Also the bolt pistol is already fully automatic, just slow. You would still have the initial charge when you release the trigger and pull it again. At standard, with a base of 135 damage, it would become overpowered. There's no question to it. If you were to increase the RoF, then the maximum would be 5-10% increase. Perhaps increasing the magazine by 1-2 rounds would be nice, but it's balanced as is. People just don't tend to like non-spray-and-pray weapons. It's excellent in the right hands. Other rail weapons do work like that btw, with the charge between shots (maybe it doesn't actually charge, but it works the exact same way with it's RoF on turrets). It's just that it isn't displayed with the rail turrets. Once 'charged', you have a set amount of time inbetween shots that are either charging, or simply have a low RoF. There is essentially no difference... If the bolt pistol didn't charge between shots it would do 435 dps or somewhere around that (this is perfectly okay for a 6 shot pistol with really high kick). Because the bolt pistol does charge between shots it loses a lot of its dps. Buffing it to be viable in no way makes it overpowered, bolt pistols show up about as often as ion pistols do in the killfeed because they are drastically underpowered. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1671	Posted - 2014.08.29 22:22:00 - [57] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. You want to remove the one thing that made nova knives enjoyable to use? Do they have to be OP for them to be enjoyable to use? Plenty of people had fun with them before. And in any case, I'm not saying put them back to exactly how they used to be, just dial it back a little. It should be possible to get 40 kill games with a sidearm but not easy like it is now with NKs.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1766	Posted - 2014.08.29 22:34:00 - [58] - Quote You'll notice I haven't included nova knives anywhere in the spreadsheet. This is because while they are sidearms I feel like they are a bit of a different animal. Fun > Realism
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1165	Posted - 2014.08.29 22:48:00 - [59] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. You want to remove the one thing that made nova knives enjoyable to use? Do they have to be OP for them to be enjoyable to use? Plenty of people had fun with them before. And in any case, I'm not saying put them back to exactly how they used to be, just dial it back a little. It should be possible to get 40 kill games with a sidearm but not easy like it is now with NKs. It's easier to get a 40kill game with a shotgun. If nova knives had a 10m range I could agree that they're OP, they don't and they actually take a lot of effort to get up that close. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Pseudogenesis Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 391	Posted - 2014.08.30 00:09:00 - [60] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. You want to remove the one thing that made nova knives enjoyable to use? Do they have to be OP for them to be enjoyable to use? Plenty of people had fun with them before. And in any case, I'm not saying put them back to exactly how they used to be, just dial it back a little. It should be possible to get 40 kill games with a sidearm but not easy like it is now with NKs. If you get a 40 kill game with nova knives and nova knives alone then you're a god amongst men playing against a team of people playing video games for the first time. They're not overpowered, not even close. If you're playing against a competent team, pulling high scores with scrambler pistols or the SMG is far easier. Do you even use them? Stabby-stabber extraordinaire

Ripcord19981 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 591	Posted - 2014.08.30 00:38:00 - [61] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Ko7 Ripcord wrote: would be reasonable to make the flaylock a burst fire sidearm, not explosives? I know it would destroy the sunniness of this weapon, but it would be easier to balance. My issue with that is that it would totally change the flavor of the weapon. i wrote uniqueness, and instead some how it says "sunniness" wtf. Yea thats kind of wat i was afraid of. I can only please one person per day. Today is not ur day, tomorrow doesn't look too bright either. Turkey sammich>taco
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1766	Posted - 2014.08.30 00:56:00 - [62] - Quote Back to the topic at hand though. What I'm hearing from people is a debate over the charge per shot on the bolt pistol. Two schools of thought here: 1) Bolt pistol, as it currently stands, does not match the other infantry rail weapons and should only charge prior to the first shot. Some fear that this would make the weapon OP as it would be a rather high amount of DPS though this could be countered with a reduction to the RoF. This change would possibly make the weapon easier to use. 2) The bolt pistol in its current state fires like the rail turret and the assault forge gun. People who support this school feel that changing the bolt pistol to only spool before the first shot would make it too easy to use. The advantage here is that a slower firing bolt pistol is more of a skill shot weapon. Fun > Realism
Erasmus Konstantin Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 46	Posted - 2014.08.30 02:10:00 - [63] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Back to the topic at hand though. What I'm hearing from people is a debate over the charge per shot on the bolt pistol. Two schools of thought here: 1) Bolt pistol, as it currently stands, does not match the other infantry rail weapons and should only charge prior to the first shot. Some fear that this would make the weapon OP as it would be a rather high amount of DPS though this could be countered with a reduction to the RoF. This change would possibly make the weapon easier to use. 2) The bolt pistol in its current state fires like the rail turret and the assault forge gun. People who support this school feel that changing the bolt pistol to only spool before the first shot would make it too easy to use. The advantage here is that a slower firing bolt pistol is more of a skill shot weapon. Well summed up. To be fair I'd be happy with either choice, it boils down to either an increase in damage or RoF to bring them in line with the other sidearms. I just wanted to get some discussion going about the bolt pistol as it seems overshadowed by the other sidearm's problems I think we can all agree about a PG reduction on the bolt pistol however.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1766	Posted - 2014.08.30 02:15:00 - [64] - Quote Give me a sec I'll add CPU and PG to the spreadsheet to make comparing easier. Fun > Realism
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 191	Posted - 2014.08.30 03:18:00 - [65] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. You want to remove the one thing that made nova knives enjoyable to use? Do they have to be OP for them to be enjoyable to use? Plenty of people had fun with them before. And in any case, I'm not saying put them back to exactly how they used to be, just dial it back a little. It should be possible to get 40 kill games with a sidearm but not easy like it is now with NKs. If you get a 40 kill game with nova knives and nova knives alone then you're a god amongst men playing against a team of people playing video games for the first time. They're not overpowered, not even close. If you're playing against a competent team, pulling high scores with scrambler pistols or the SMG is far easier. Do you even use them? Every once in a while I'll get games where my team (non proto stacked team), eradicates the enemy team and then continues to hack and hold all of the objectives in the first minute or two, while the redberries are sitting on the redline or reverted to sniping for the remainder of the match. I'm there thinking "You... can't.... you can't be serious. Already?! How?". Then I get hate mail from a player on the enemy team, and I almost feel bad for how effortless it was to kill them... even if I'm new to a game, I'm never as bad as they were. Then those people come to the forums... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 464	Posted - 2014.08.30 03:47:00 - [66] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. You want to remove the one thing that made nova knives enjoyable to use? Do they have to be OP for them to be enjoyable to use? Plenty of people had fun with them before. And in any case, I'm not saying put them back to exactly how they used to be, just dial it back a little. It should be possible to get 40 kill games with a sidearm but not easy like it is now with NKs. If you get a 40 kill game with nova knives and nova knives alone then you're a god amongst men playing against a team of people playing video games for the first time. They're not overpowered, not even close. If you're playing against a competent team, pulling high scores with scrambler pistols or the SMG is far easier. Do you even use them? Every once in a while I'll get games where my team (non proto stacked team), eradicates the enemy team and then continues to hack and hold all of the objectives in the first minute or two, while the redberries are sitting on the redline or reverted to sniping for the remainder of the match. I'm there thinking "You... can't.... you can't be serious. Already?! How?". Then I get hate mail from a player on the enemy team, and I almost feel bad for how effortless it was to kill them... even if I'm new to a game, I'm never as bad as they were. Then those people come to the forums... Balance vs PC then hopefully the new matchmaking will fix the rest. I know I will be looking forward to matchmaking not putting me in a team of solo / noobs against the qsynced proto stomp tryhards with mics as I know my Mo will be lower than theirs.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 379	Posted - 2014.08.30 14:39:00 - [67] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: SMG - No one has ever complained about SMGs being OP. They are the one thing in this game that has always been balanced. Leave as they are. ScP - Not the god mode weapon they were prior to the assault variant RoF reduction but remain very effective. Still kill more quickly than an SMG in the hands of a skilled user. Leave as they are. Magsec SMG - Obviously it's fantastic having that range in a sidearm, so there has to be a tradeoff in terms of damage application. Nevertheless a small buff may be reasonable. Either kick reduction or slight (5% or so) damage increase. Flaylock pistol - They are a little UP but tread VERY carefully. When these were good the game was absolutely horrible. It was frequently used as a primary weapon and explosive spam was everywhere. I would discourage increases to blast radius as it is this, not damage per se, that is the real killer with this weapon - it is impossible to respond once you're hit as your aim is thrown all over the place. Getting that massive advantage over your opponent should remain a matter of skill. Maybe a slight increase to damage would be okay. Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. Ion pistol and bolt pistol - Don't know. SMG - leave alone ScP - leave alone (could consider dialing back the headshot multiplier from 450% to 400%) Magsec SMG - range trumps everything; no buffs required Flaylock - UP, needs love Nova Knives - recent changes over corrected; dial range back to 2m Ion & Bolt - don't know Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 192	Posted - 2014.08.30 17:49:00 - [68] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: SMG - No one has ever complained about SMGs being OP. They are the one thing in this game that has always been balanced. Leave as they are. ScP - Not the god mode weapon they were prior to the assault variant RoF reduction but remain very effective. Still kill more quickly than an SMG in the hands of a skilled user. Leave as they are. Magsec SMG - Obviously it's fantastic having that range in a sidearm, so there has to be a tradeoff in terms of damage application. Nevertheless a small buff may be reasonable. Either kick reduction or slight (5% or so) damage increase. Flaylock pistol - They are a little UP but tread VERY carefully. When these were good the game was absolutely horrible. It was frequently used as a primary weapon and explosive spam was everywhere. I would discourage increases to blast radius as it is this, not damage per se, that is the real killer with this weapon - it is impossible to respond once you're hit as your aim is thrown all over the place. Getting that massive advantage over your opponent should remain a matter of skill. Maybe a slight increase to damage would be okay. Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. Ion pistol and bolt pistol - Don't know. SMG - leave alone ScP - leave alone (could consider dialing back the headshot multiplier from 450% to 400%) Magsec SMG - range trumps everything; no buffs required Flaylock - UP, needs love Nova Knives - recent changes over corrected; dial range back to 2m Ion & Bolt - don't know The thing I get with the flaylock is even when I hit the ground around someones feet (no more than half a foot away from them), it may or may not do any damage... With such an immensely small splash radius, it seems far too inconsistent to be viable as a sidearm (especially with lag, which is unforgiving with this weapon), especially in comparison to others. It the radius were to be increased, and proves too easy to use, then you could just adjust the damage accordingly. I don't think the issue is any longer of it being a skillshot weapon, but of it simply being viable in most encounters. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 196	Posted - 2014.08.31 04:56:00 - [69] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: SMG - No one has ever complained about SMGs being OP. They are the one thing in this game that has always been balanced. Leave as they are. ScP - Not the god mode weapon they were prior to the assault variant RoF reduction but remain very effective. Still kill more quickly than an SMG in the hands of a skilled user. Leave as they are. Magsec SMG - Obviously it's fantastic having that range in a sidearm, so there has to be a tradeoff in terms of damage application. Nevertheless a small buff may be reasonable. Either kick reduction or slight (5% or so) damage increase. Flaylock pistol - They are a little UP but tread VERY carefully. When these were good the game was absolutely horrible. It was frequently used as a primary weapon and explosive spam was everywhere. I would discourage increases to blast radius as it is this, not damage per se, that is the real killer with this weapon - it is impossible to respond once you're hit as your aim is thrown all over the place. Getting that massive advantage over your opponent should remain a matter of skill. Maybe a slight increase to damage would be okay. Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. Ion pistol and bolt pistol - Don't know. SMG - leave alone ScP - leave alone (could consider dialing back the headshot multiplier from 450% to 400%) Magsec SMG - range trumps everything; no buffs required Flaylock - UP, needs love Nova Knives - recent changes over corrected; dial range back to 2m Ion & Bolt - don't know Range means nothing when you can't hit your target. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1767	Posted - 2014.08.31 06:20:00 - [70] - Quote I still take issue with the fact that the Magsec has much longer range than the SMG yet has a higher DPS. Perhaps it is just me or perhaps this isn't an issue because the weapon has such a high amount of kick compared to the SMG which, as the last poster points out, makes damage application much more difficult. Fun > Realism

manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 83	Posted - 2014.08.31 10:46:00 - [71] - Quote no offence but your evaluation of scr pistols is completely wrong here.. if you go out into some matches you'll find the Scr Pistol does not match up to the smg at all... infact the dps of the scp is much slower than it seems due to the restrained firing ability that came with it's previous nerfs... rest assured more nerfs to the pathetic attempt at a pistol are not necessary, infact i think it's assault variant should be buffed to provide a higher ROF to match the punch of other side arms. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 193	Posted - 2014.08.31 16:47:00 - [72] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: no offence but your evaluation of scr pistols is completely wrong here.. if you go out into some matches you'll find the Scr Pistol does not match up to the smg at all... infact the dps of the scp is much slower than it seems due to the restrained firing ability that came with it's previous nerfs... rest assured more nerfs to the pathetic attempt at a pistol are not necessary, infact i think it's assault variant should be buffed to provide a higher ROF to match the punch of other side arms. That 'restrained' firing ability is a mere delay, and like all delays, they can be somewhat overlapped, and 'increase' the RoF. By trying to fire faster (not too fast, you'll miss time the delay) you can increase the RoF from 301 on the Assault Scrambler Pistol to about the same of the Rail Rifle's, which is around 460 RoF I believe. It's the same with the Combat Rifle, which has the slightest delay between shots. Once you figure out the delay's time, you can nearly fire it as fast as the Assault varient, a fully automatic 1200 RoF. Even the Tactical Assault Rifle does this, and once figured out, it can be shot somewhat (not quite) like the Scrambler Rifle, which has no delay at all due to it's RoF being set way up at 750. My estimate for the maximum potential for the Tactical Assault Rifle's RoF would be around 600-650, maybe a little lower. The Burst Assault Rifle also has delay, that when overcome, allows you to put nearly twice as many bullets down range. It's all about timing... PS: I've also been annihilating people with my new Viziam and Carthum Scrambler Pistols. I think they fine as is. Not overpowered, and not too easy to use for most people. Also, does anyone find it odd that the IA5 Tactical Scrambler Pistol that we get from salvage, an advanced tiered weapon, has worse stats than the standard Assault Scrambler Pistol? My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 193	Posted - 2014.08.31 16:51:00 - [73] - Quote THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: SMG - No one has ever complained about SMGs being OP. They are the one thing in this game that has always been balanced. Leave as they are. ScP - Not the god mode weapon they were prior to the assault variant RoF reduction but remain very effective. Still kill more quickly than an SMG in the hands of a skilled user. Leave as they are. Magsec SMG - Obviously it's fantastic having that range in a sidearm, so there has to be a tradeoff in terms of damage application. Nevertheless a small buff may be reasonable. Either kick reduction or slight (5% or so) damage increase. Flaylock pistol - They are a little UP but tread VERY carefully. When these were good the game was absolutely horrible. It was frequently used as a primary weapon and explosive spam was everywhere. I would discourage increases to blast radius as it is this, not damage per se, that is the real killer with this weapon - it is impossible to respond once you're hit as your aim is thrown all over the place. Getting that massive advantage over your opponent should remain a matter of skill. Maybe a slight increase to damage would be okay. Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. Ion pistol and bolt pistol - Don't know. SMG - leave alone ScP - leave alone (could consider dialing back the headshot multiplier from 450% to 400%) Magsec SMG - range trumps everything; no buffs required Flaylock - UP, needs love Nova Knives - recent changes over corrected; dial range back to 2m Ion & Bolt - don't know Range means nothing when you can't hit your target. I can hit people out to 60 meters out with the Magsec... what's your excuse? It doesn't climb at all, and bounces up and down slightly, but it always goes back to the same spot, making it incredibly accurate if you're able to ignore the animation and focus on the center dot of the iron sight. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 196	Posted - 2014.08.31 17:49:00 - [74] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: SMG - No one has ever complained about SMGs being OP. They are the one thing in this game that has always been balanced. Leave as they are. ScP - Not the god mode weapon they were prior to the assault variant RoF reduction but remain very effective. Still kill more quickly than an SMG in the hands of a skilled user. Leave as they are. Magsec SMG - Obviously it's fantastic having that range in a sidearm, so there has to be a tradeoff in terms of damage application. Nevertheless a small buff may be reasonable. Either kick reduction or slight (5% or so) damage increase. Flaylock pistol - They are a little UP but tread VERY carefully. When these were good the game was absolutely horrible. It was frequently used as a primary weapon and explosive spam was everywhere. I would discourage increases to blast radius as it is this, not damage per se, that is the real killer with this weapon - it is impossible to respond once you're hit as your aim is thrown all over the place. Getting that massive advantage over your opponent should remain a matter of skill. Maybe a slight increase to damage would be okay. Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. Ion pistol and bolt pistol - Don't know. SMG - leave alone ScP - leave alone (could consider dialing back the headshot multiplier from 450% to 400%) Magsec SMG - range trumps everything; no buffs required Flaylock - UP, needs love Nova Knives - recent changes over corrected; dial range back to 2m Ion & Bolt - don't know Range means nothing when you can't hit your target. I can hit people out to 60 meters out with the Magsec... what's your excuse? It doesn't climb at all, and bounces up and down slightly, but it always goes back to the same spot, making it incredibly accurate if you're able to ignore the animation and focus on the center dot of the iron sight. Never said I couldn't hit people with it at a distance, its a skill weapon at the moment which I would prefer it stay, benefits from no aim assist/magnetism whatsoever. I never threw out any recoil reduction suggestions all I wanted was a scope, considering its caldari tech that's all it needs. The smg on the other hand is just point and shoot there's next to no recoil with that thing, no real drawbacks excluding its range since its a sidearm. Won't toss my ideas out on that once since I don't use it. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 193	Posted - 2014.08.31 19:20:00 - [75] - Quote THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: SMG - No one has ever complained about SMGs being OP. They are the one thing in this game that has always been balanced. Leave as they are. ScP - Not the god mode weapon they were prior to the assault variant RoF reduction but remain very effective. Still kill more quickly than an SMG in the hands of a skilled user. Leave as they are. Magsec SMG - Obviously it's fantastic having that range in a sidearm, so there has to be a tradeoff in terms of damage application. Nevertheless a small buff may be reasonable. Either kick reduction or slight (5% or so) damage increase. Flaylock pistol - They are a little UP but tread VERY carefully. When these were good the game was absolutely horrible. It was frequently used as a primary weapon and explosive spam was everywhere. I would discourage increases to blast radius as it is this, not damage per se, that is the real killer with this weapon - it is impossible to respond once you're hit as your aim is thrown all over the place. Getting that massive advantage over your opponent should remain a matter of skill. Maybe a slight increase to damage would be okay. Nova Knives - With the latest buff they have become the nearest thing to a modern day flaylock, i.e. a sidearm widely used as a primary weapon. Seeing people get a lot of 30 or 40 kill games with them. Maybe the increase in range brought in in Charlie should be rolled back a little so it's less of a 'shotgun in a sidearm slot'. Ion pistol and bolt pistol - Don't know. SMG - leave alone ScP - leave alone (could consider dialing back the headshot multiplier from 450% to 400%) Magsec SMG - range trumps everything; no buffs required Flaylock - UP, needs love Nova Knives - recent changes over corrected; dial range back to 2m Ion & Bolt - don't know Range means nothing when you can't hit your target. I can hit people out to 60 meters out with the Magsec... what's your excuse? It doesn't climb at all, and bounces up and down slightly, but it always goes back to the same spot, making it incredibly accurate if you're able to ignore the animation and focus on the center dot of the iron sight. Never said I couldn't hit people with it at a distance, its a skill weapon at the moment which I would prefer it stay, benefits from no aim assist/magnetism whatsoever. I never threw out any recoil reduction suggestions all I wanted was a scope, considering its caldari tech that's all it needs. The smg on the other hand is just point and shoot there's next to no recoil with that thing, no real drawbacks excluding its range since its a sidearm. Won't toss my ideas out on that once since I don't use it. For future revision, when you say something along the lines of 'Range mean nothing when you can't hit your target.', it's generally assumed that the one who said it is the one who can indeed not do it (or do it, depending on the wording and/or context), unless stated otherwise. It is true that the Smg is painfully easy to use with absolutely no recoil, even towards the end of the magazine where is gently rises. I also don't like how recoil is done in Dust. It just doesn't make sense in the mechanics of a weapon, and adding actual recoil can balance and fix several issues. Recoil over time makes no sense. Unless the projectile was being shot harder and faster in order to achieve a greater distance, and it continually progresses in this state at a steady rate over time, then it would make sense that recoil eventually arises when shooting. No weapon works like that... nothing of which that could be held by a mere human anyway. Recoil should be per bullet. Weapons that do this are the Smg, Assault Rifle, Assault Combat Rifle, and a few others. The one exception is the Hmg, which SLOWLY increases in... well it isn't kick, but it's of that variety. The reason why is that to hold onto an object of that size and is constantly vibrating for a continuous period of time could lax the grip of the user, causing it to slowly rise upward. It's like using any handheld electric saw. That sh*t will wear your arms off. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
bamboo x Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1096	Posted - 2014.09.01 00:46:00 - [76] - Quote I was looking at the spreadsheet and realized I don't like that Blackstar wants to nerf the ScP AND its range. Mobius's looks much better in this respect *Eternal Beings* - #76 in All Time WP - #90 in All Time Kills. Member since day one, 10 months ago.
Zindorak 1.U.P 761	Posted - 2014.09.01 02:14:00 - [77] - Quote If ScP get a little better i will be very happy Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1778	Posted - 2014.09.01 03:10:00 - [78] - Quote I feel like since the pistols have lower damage potential per magazine they need to have more DPS. The difference in our two scrambler pistol plans is an example of how this plays out. Fun > Realism

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6604	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:39:00 - [79] - Quote Bumping "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

nelo kazuma Da Short Buss Driving School 35	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:52:00 - [80] - Quote Everyone's forgetting about the bolt pistol T.T

shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2785	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:54:00 - [81] - Quote Wouldn't it be better to have a single thread for each sidearm? I know you are redirecting things here, but the situation is a bit confused, i would like to give my feedback on specific weapons which i use, in relation to a official proposal. Is the proposal in the spreadsheet approved as delta official proposal? PSN: ogamega "Dust is full of communists who despise people with enough isk to buy expensive items" LOCK REGIONS
Repe Susi Rautaleijona 1399	Posted - 2014.09.04 10:58:00 - [82] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Wouldn't it be better to have a single thread for each sidearm? I know you are redirecting things here, but the situation is a bit confused, i would like to give my feedback on specific weapons which i use, in relation to a official proposal. Agreed. Too much to read to find info on selected sidearm. Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. ~ Isaac Asimov
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 201	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:54:00 - [83] - Quote I demand a scope for the magsec, that is my two cents. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 115	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:14:00 - [84] - Quote nelo kazuma wrote: Everyone's forgetting about the bolt pistol T.T the bolt pistol is pretty decent rn NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 115	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:16:00 - [85] - Quote I wouldnt mind a slightly better ironsight on the scrambler pistol, maybe a little red dot sight would be nice for an isk tactical variant. The fact that it's a shield weapon does however mean it could use a slight buff, because armour tanking is prevalent atm. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 485	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:30:00 - [86] - Quote Rattati, I don't understand why these threads need to be merged. What issues do the sidearms have in common? I think they're each a special case and would be best served by their own thread. If you think otherwise could you clarify the rason for merging the threads? Thanks!
OZAROW Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 1553	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:46:00 - [87] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Back to the topic at hand though. What I'm hearing from people is a debate over the charge per shot on the bolt pistol. Two schools of thought here: 1) Bolt pistol, as it currently stands, does not match the other infantry rail weapons and should only charge prior to the first shot. Some fear that this would make the weapon OP as it would be a rather high amount of DPS though this could be countered with a reduction to the RoF. This change would possibly make the weapon easier to use. 2) The bolt pistol in its current state fires like the rail turret and the assault forge gun. People who support this school feel that changing the bolt pistol to only spool before the first shot would make it too easy to use. The advantage here is that a slower firing bolt pistol is more of a skill shot weapon. Then make two types: Keep the pistol we have now and slightly increase something, either damage or range or clip size to at least 8 or have all pistols start minimal mags and increase in size like the scp. I like the timing on the bolt pistol as is and im totally used to it, changing this without a secondary type to use would wreck the pistol avid users love so: Make a assault bolt pistol that has a wuicker rof, double the mag size, slightly less range and damage, but fix the bolt pistol s dropoff damage currently it just travels and ends with no damage on targets too far away fix this because bullets dont just vanish. Yes, you just got rocked by a guy with a BOLT PISTOL and a pair of knives! !
OZAROW Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 1553	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:49:00 - [88] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Give me a sec I'll add CPU and PG to the spreadsheet to make comparing easier. Oh and ruduce proto bolt pistol pg , 14 for a sidearm is a bit much Yes, you just got rocked by a guy with a BOLT PISTOL and a pair of knives! !
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:54:00 - [89] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Wouldn't it be better to have a single thread for each sidearm? I know you are redirecting things here, but the situation is a bit confused, i would like to give my feedback on specific weapons which i use, in relation to a official proposal. Is the proposal in the spreadsheet approved as delta official proposal? No, the spreadsheet is not an official Delta proposal by the devs. It was created by BL4CKST4R and myself, our proposals are each on different tabs at the bottom. The reason I am encouraging redirection to a single thread is that while it is easier to think about each weapon individually it is much harder to balance that way. A single thread, with a single spreadsheet allow both players and devs to see how changes to a single aspect of a single weapon will change it in relation to the other weapons. This kind of broad view is essential when trying to balance all the weapons as a whole and helps avoid the OP FoTM/Nerf cycle that is so destructive to the community. That being said there is no reason why there shouldn't be individual threads about each weapon as long as we bring all those ideas into perspective by comparing them to on another. That is this thread's purpose. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:56:00 - [90] - Quote OZAROW wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Back to the topic at hand though. What I'm hearing from people is a debate over the charge per shot on the bolt pistol. Two schools of thought here: 1) Bolt pistol, as it currently stands, does not match the other infantry rail weapons and should only charge prior to the first shot. Some fear that this would make the weapon OP as it would be a rather high amount of DPS though this could be countered with a reduction to the RoF. This change would possibly make the weapon easier to use. 2) The bolt pistol in its current state fires like the rail turret and the assault forge gun. People who support this school feel that changing the bolt pistol to only spool before the first shot would make it too easy to use. The advantage here is that a slower firing bolt pistol is more of a skill shot weapon. Then make two types: Keep the pistol we have now and slightly increase something, either damage or range or clip size to at least 8 or have all pistols start minimal mags and increase in size like the scp. I like the timing on the bolt pistol as is and im totally used to it, changing this without a secondary type to use would wreck the pistol avid users love so: Make a assault bolt pistol that has a wuicker rof, double the mag size, slightly less range and damage, but fix the bolt pistol s dropoff damage currently it just travels and ends with no damage on targets too far away fix this because bullets dont just vanish. Ahh an assault bolt pistol which only charges once per burst is an interesting idea. The spreadsheet is getting a bit crowded so I'm going to have to make a new tab for variants. Fun > Realism

Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 142	Posted - 2014.09.04 17:14:00 - [91] - Quote I'm not a fan of much of the proposed changes on this. Much of this is taking what is current and flipping it on it's head, which isn't really fixing most if any of the issues. The Scrambler pistols current rate of fire in the assault variant should be where any semi-automatic weapon should not be. The scrambler pistol should be placed back to where it was. In that relation the scrambler pistol has better relation to the SMG and Magsec. I have no issues with the magsec, but I do with the SMG, and that is due to mainly it has no kick, gun rise, and dispersion etc. The magsec is more balanced with this compared to the SMG, but the Magsec sometimes feels as if it has too much of this seriously hindering its accuracy. Giving the Ion pistol too much DPS i feel is an issue even though it has a charge option, simply because of the fact of its +10 -10 percentile. I would see its ROF below the KLO scrambler pistol making it focus more on damage without overshadowing the scrambler pistol variant in the assault, burst, and breach categories. Bolt pistol I would generalize round about just below the breach scrambler pistol variant making it focus on continuous heavy damage where the bolt pistol can really shine. Lastly the flaylock doesn't need a high ROF in the slightest. This is a handheld mass driver. It should have a slowest ROF compared to the other weapons, and concentrate on damage. With that said then we can look at bringing its splash damage out a bit more, while keeping its clip size the same or shortening it further. Bringing back the flaylock pistol to where it originally was is just going to disrupt light and side arms weapons making the flaylock the answer to most scenarios again. The reason the flaylock was bad because it had too much of a splash radius, high rate of fire, and did a great deal of damage. If it is tweaked along the lines of making this weapon into an area denial weapon as its sister weapon the mass driver we should see more use from the flaylock while the other weapons and side arms are not overshadowed by it. I think many do not see the hand gun as weapons that should be able to effectively kill infantry as a stand alone weapon, but with limitations, such as range, splash damage, and small magazine sizes. *Always Grey Skies*
ConantheCimmerian Murphys-Law 57	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:42:00 - [92] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Why do people hate the Scrambler Pistol, and Pistols in general? Pistols should do more DPS than SMGs at the cost of less damage per mag. Not less DPS for the cost of less damage per mag. Ideally, pistols should do about 500 DPS, but oldy have between 700-800 DPM. So, alpha damage with a worthless ROF gay. The mainline issue is you guys want secondaries that can be primary weapons. You cant. Ccp said not. In a perfect world. Skilled marksmen can go all day long with only a sidearm. But they, without argunebt, are not as effectiv . As a rifleman. Sidearms should nit be balanced to each other but their roles. Pilot-The Black Corsair (funny comment)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 536	Posted - 2014.09.04 23:29:00 - [93] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Magsec needs to have a better scope, and needs less kick when aimed down sight. DPS feels fine. the SMG needs more kick as there is practically none. is this possible without a client update? could we also get a variant with the suppressor attached?
JDEZ09 Dark Side Alliance 79	Posted - 2014.09.05 01:27:00 - [94] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: nelo kazuma wrote: Everyone's forgetting about the bolt pistol T.T the bolt pistol is pretty decent rn He's right. We forgot the Bolt pistol!! Take the sight of the bolt pistol and put it on the MagSec!!! lol
Zindorak 1.U.P 805	Posted - 2014.09.05 01:28:00 - [95] - Quote JDEZ09 wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: nelo kazuma wrote: Everyone's forgetting about the bolt pistol T.T the bolt pistol is pretty decent rn He's right. We forgot the Bolt pistol!! Take the sight of the bolt pistol and put it on the MagSec!!! lol break it of and glue it on Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.05 04:28:00 - [96] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: I'm not a fan of much of the proposed changes on this. Much of this is taking what is current and flipping it on it's head, which isn't really fixing most if any of the issues. The Scrambler pistols current rate of fire in the assault variant should be where any semi-automatic weapon should not be. The scrambler pistol should be placed back to where it was. In that relation the scrambler pistol has better relation to the SMG and Magsec. I have no issues with the magsec, but I do with the SMG, and that is due to mainly it has no kick, gun rise, and dispersion etc. The magsec is more balanced with this compared to the SMG, but the Magsec sometimes feels as if it has too much of this seriously hindering its accuracy. Giving the Ion pistol too much DPS i feel is an issue even though it has a charge option, simply because of the fact of its +10 -10 percentile. I would see its ROF below the KLO scrambler pistol making it focus more on damage without overshadowing the scrambler pistol variant in the assault, burst, and breach categories. Bolt pistol I would generalize round about just below the breach scrambler pistol variant making it focus on continuous heavy damage where the bolt pistol can really shine. Lastly the flaylock doesn't need a high ROF in the slightest. This is a handheld mass driver. It should have a slowest ROF compared to the other weapons, and concentrate on damage. With that said then we can look at bringing its splash damage out a bit more, while keeping its clip size the same or shortening it further. Bringing back the flaylock pistol to where it originally was is just going to disrupt light and side arms weapons making the flaylock the answer to most scenarios again. The reason the flaylock was bad because it had too much of a splash radius, high rate of fire, and did a great deal of damage. If it is tweaked along the lines of making this weapon into an area denial weapon as its sister weapon the mass driver we should see more use from the flaylock while the other weapons and side arms are not overshadowed by it. I think many do not see the hand gun as weapons that should be able to effectively kill infantry as a stand alone weapon, but with limitations, such as range, splash damage, and small magazine sizes. Having these things will limit them to still being side arms but effective none the less, but these side arms limited ammo will make them useful for 1 on 1 scenarios, but make them struggle when faced in a less controlled fire fight scenario. Honestly I had a hard time reading your post, which is why I added paragraphs, but I think I get the general gist. I'm going to summarize your points here and take a second to respond to them. 1) You state that the ScP's rate of fire should be brought back to pre-1.8 levels, and the SMG needs an increase in either dispersion or barrel climb to make it perform on par with the Magsec. I don't really feel that the ScP's RoF is the only way to make it more competitive which is why I proposed it get a small buff to several stats. As far as your proposal to change the SMG that would be highly disagreeable to many players though I must admit I agree on one level but it is also the only side arm that is currently useful. All other side arms really just need to be brought up to its level of usefulness including the Magsec. 2) You disagree with my proposed buff to the Ion pistol stating that it should only get a damage buff and should, infact, get a RoF nerf. You also state that giving the weapon too high a DPS will be an issue. The Ion Pistol is the shortest range side arm (besides nova knives that is) and it also has horribly low accuracy. Short range weapons with low rates of fire and poor accuracy are stupidly hard to use. Lowering the Ion Pistol's RoF, even if you also give it a colossal buff to damage would make it even less useful than it currently is. I agree that too high of a DPS could be an issue here but this weapon is a bit like a shotgun. It has horribly low range and needs a high damage output to make up for this. Remember range and damage need to have an inverse relationship. 3) You say the Bolt Pistol should be made to focus on delivering continuous heavy damage. The weapon is a long range high damage per shot pistol, a sniper pistol or a hand cannon if you will. Allowing it to apply that damage continuously from long range would make it extremely overpowered. Don't get me wrong, I love this gun, but making it have continuous damage application over an extended period of time would make it OP. 4) You would like to see the flaylock become an area denial weapon but worry that having a high RoF, lots of damage, or a large blast radius could cause it to become OP again. I agree that messing with the flaylock is dangerous territory. A small change could cause it to become over powered, which is not what we are looking for here. Making the flaylock into an area denial weapon would involve giving it a large blast radius that did enough damage to be a serious threat. What you are asking for seems to be exactly what you are afraid of. The MD is already an area denial weapon, the flaylock can be a bit more unique. In my proposal its RoF, mag and damage recieve a boost but its blast radius does not. These changes allow the flaylock to do enough damage to be threatening but not able to dominate an opponent with unaimed blast radius damage. It should take some skill to use but be able to kill as well as anyother weapon. Fun > Realism
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 200	Posted - 2014.09.05 04:42:00 - [97] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Gabriella Grey wrote: I'm not a fan of much of the proposed changes on this. Much of this is taking what is current and flipping it on it's head, which isn't really fixing most if any of the issues. The Scrambler pistols current rate of fire in the assault variant should be where any semi-automatic weapon should not be. The scrambler pistol should be placed back to where it was. In that relation the scrambler pistol has better relation to the SMG and Magsec. I have no issues with the magsec, but I do with the SMG, and that is due to mainly it has no kick, gun rise, and dispersion etc. The magsec is more balanced with this compared to the SMG, but the Magsec sometimes feels as if it has too much of this seriously hindering its accuracy. Giving the Ion pistol too much DPS i feel is an issue even though it has a charge option, simply because of the fact of its +10 -10 percentile. I would see its ROF below the KLO scrambler pistol making it focus more on damage without overshadowing the scrambler pistol variant in the assault, burst, and breach categories. Bolt pistol I would generalize round about just below the breach scrambler pistol variant making it focus on continuous heavy damage where the bolt pistol can really shine. Lastly the flaylock doesn't need a high ROF in the slightest. This is a handheld mass driver. It should have a slowest ROF compared to the other weapons, and concentrate on damage. With that said then we can look at bringing its splash damage out a bit more, while keeping its clip size the same or shortening it further. Bringing back the flaylock pistol to where it originally was is just going to disrupt light and side arms weapons making the flaylock the answer to most scenarios again. The reason the flaylock was bad because it had too much of a splash radius, high rate of fire, and did a great deal of damage. If it is tweaked along the lines of making this weapon into an area denial weapon as its sister weapon the mass driver we should see more use from the flaylock while the other weapons and side arms are not overshadowed by it. I think many do not see the hand gun as weapons that should be able to effectively kill infantry as a stand alone weapon, but with limitations, such as range, splash damage, and small magazine sizes. Having these things will limit them to still being side arms but effective none the less, but these side arms limited ammo will make them useful for 1 on 1 scenarios, but make them struggle when faced in a less controlled fire fight scenario. Honestly I had a hard time reading your post, which is why I added paragraphs, but I think I get the general gist. I'm going to summarize your points here and take a second to respond to them. 1) You state that the ScP's rate of fire should be brought back to pre-1.8 levels, and the SMG needs an increase in either dispersion or barrel climb to make it perform on par with the Magsec. I don't really feel that the ScP's RoF is the only way to make it more competitive which is why I proposed it get a small buff to several stats. As far as your proposal to change the SMG that would be highly disagreeable to many players though I must admit I agree on one level but it is also the only side arm that is currently useful. All other side arms really just need to be brought up to its level of usefulness including the Magsec. Although I loved the RoF on the Scrambler Pistol, they were indeed overpowered, and certainly do not need a buff to pre 1.8 levels, maybe a SMALL increase, but they operate just fine as is. Also, it can fire it faster than others think it can. All you have to do is try and perfect the delay time inbetween shots. It's the same as the combat rifle, when trying to fire it as if it were fully automatic. The current Scrambler Pistol is just fine, especially dual Viziams or Carthums on my ADV Amarr Assaut suit that is reping at about 24hp/s. The range on them is amazing as well. They are very deadly in the right hand, and fair well in the majority of confrontations for a mere sidearm. I'd would prefer that small, minute changes be made to the Scrambler Pistol, if any were to be made. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 226	Posted - 2014.09.05 06:34:00 - [98] - Quote How about this CCP? I'm only going to really be able torovide feedback on the Ion Pistol, Scrambler Pistol, and SMG, because those are the sidearms that I know. Much in the same way the the SMG is like a mini-ACR, the ScP should be like a mini-ScR. Compared to the ACR, the SMG has these modifiers: GÇó83Gàô% RoF GÇó110-+% Damage GÇó118% Magazine Size GÇó55% Effective Range GÇó50% Absolute Range GÇóUses about the same CPU/PG Honestly, the SMG is just a smaller ACR with a shorter range. The stats of the SMG are basically just as good, other than the range. Do the same to the ScP. GÇó83Gàô% RoF 499.99 rpm GÇó110-+% Damage 71.66 Damage GÇó118% Magazine Size 53 rounds per mag (this should be dropped to 10 rounds per mag in exchange for the headshot bonus) GÇó55% Effective Range 54m Effective Range (we can just leave this where it is in exchange for no overheat mechanic, 35m GÇó50% Absolute Range 125m Absolute Range GÇóUses about the same CPU/PG 25-30 CPU and 7-8 PG I hope this is somewhat eye opening to you SMG users just how good you guys have it...
Mauren NOON The Exemplars 445	Posted - 2014.09.05 13:46:00 - [99] - Quote If the magsec doesn't get a dispersion/kick reduction I will be Pacific Ocean salty...I love the magsec. I have prof. 3 reload 3 and ammo 2 Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.05 14:22:00 - [100] - Quote Mauren NOON wrote: If the magsec doesn't get a dispersion/kick reduction I will be Pacific Ocean salty...I love the magsec. I have prof. 3 reload 3 and ammo 2 If it does get a kick/dispersion reduction don't you think that will make the weapon OP? As it stands it has more range and DPS thank the SMG, a weapon that is already a tad too usable. Fun > Realism

Mauren NOON The Exemplars 445	Posted - 2014.09.05 14:48:00 - [101] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: If the magsec doesn't get a dispersion/kick reduction I will be Pacific Ocean salty...I love the magsec. I have prof. 3 reload 3 and ammo 2 If it does get a kick/dispersion reduction don't you think that will make the weapon OP? As it stands it has more range and DPS thank the SMG, a weapon that is already a tad too usable. Your kidding me right? More DPS than the smg my arse....smg has much more DPS than the magsec. And the magsec suffers from the rail rifles ghost shots.(shots that do no damage) and a damage buff will make it OP not a dispersion or kick reduction Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!
Finn Colman Black Talon Company 37	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:58:00 - [102] - Quote Mauren NOON wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: If the magsec doesn't get a dispersion/kick reduction I will be Pacific Ocean salty...I love the magsec. I have prof. 3 reload 3 and ammo 2 If it does get a kick/dispersion reduction don't you think that will make the weapon OP? As it stands it has more range and DPS thank the SMG, a weapon that is already a tad too usable. Your kidding me right? More DPS than the smg my arse....smg has much more DPS than the magsec. And the magsec suffers from the rail rifles ghost shots.(shots that do no damage) and a damage buff will make it OP not a dispersion or kick reduction I can speak from extensive experience in saying that generally the guy with the SMG beats the guy with the MagSec. Usually I'm the guy with the magsec... Under the right conditions (making use of the range advantage) however, the MagSec wins.
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 143	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:09:00 - [103] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: I don't really feel that the ScP's RoF is the only way to make it more competitive which is why I proposed it get a small buff to several stats. As far as your proposal to change the SMG that would be highly disagreeable to many players though I must admit I agree on one level but it is also the only side arm that is currently useful. All other side arms really just need to be brought up to its level of usefulness including the Magsec. 2) You disagree with my proposed buff to the Ion pistol stating that it should only get a damage buff and should, infact, get a RoF nerf. You also state that giving the weapon too high a DPS will be an issue. The Ion Pistol is the shortest range side arm (besides nova knives that is) and it also has horribly low accuracy. Short range weapons with low rates of fire and poor accuracy are stupidly hard to use. Lowering the Ion Pistol's RoF, even if you also give it a colossal buff to damage would make it even less useful than it currently is. I agree that too high of a DPS could be an issue here but this weapon is a bit like a shotgun. It has horribly low range and needs a high damage output to make up for this. Remember range and damage need to have an inverse relationship. 3) You say the Bolt Pistol should be made to focus on delivering continuous heavy damage. The weapon is a long range high damage per shot pistol, a sniper pistol or a hand cannon if you will. Allowing it to apply that damage continuously from long range would make it extremely overpowered. Don't get me wrong, I love this gun, but making it have continuous damage application over an extended period of time would make it OP. 4) You would like to see the flaylock become an area denial weapon but worry that having a high RoF, lots of damage, or a large blast radius could cause it to become OP again. I agree that messing with the flaylock is dangerous territory. A small change could cause it to become over powered, which is not what we are looking for here. Making the flaylock into an area denial weapon would involve giving it a large blast radius that did enough damage to be a serious threat. What you are asking for seems to be exactly what you are afraid of. The MD is already an area denial weapon, the flaylock can be a bit more unique. In my proposal its RoF, mag and damage recieve a boost but its blast radius does not. These changes allow the flaylock to do enough damage to be threatening but not able to dominate an opponent with unaimed blast radius damage. It should take some skill to use but be able to kill as well as anyother weapon. The SMG is too effective as it stands, even at militia level because there is no kick or rise. On one account I have no skills invested into the SMG and it easily out performs my fully skilled Scrambler Pistol, magsec, and along with their skill trees. For the Magsec it's too much all over the place. The dispersion is too much, and I think the best start for this weapon and the SMG is to find something between the two. For the Ion Pistol I feel it needs to have more range than the bolt pistol. For its damage however I feel it should come a bit short on non charged shots. It's not easy to get a charged shot with a scrambler pistol at long ranges, and the bolt pistol should not be any different. For that reason alone it needs more range in relation to the bolt pistol. The Bolt Pistol should be the only different operating weapon for the Caldari focusing on damage while sacrificing range. This will promote use of the weapon as well as give it a space for itself in the other line of Caldari side arms and weaponry. I look at it as an magnum or a desert eagle. it's Rate of fire should be slower when compared to the Ion pistol but like the Duvalle vs the Scrambler Rifle, it's relation should be similar. The Scrambler Pistol's RoF was what made this gun have it's own nich+¬. It's short range, low ammo count, +20% to shields and -20% to armor stack up made up for it's RoF balanced. Currently as this weapon stands now the only effective scrambler pistol is the Burst. The burst allows me to send damage down range while still being able to have a fighting chance in 1 on 1 engagements. As the other variants now this gun is useless on it's own. 9/10 engagements I have with my scrambler pistol it is far too easy to counter a player using this gun alone. This weapon has too much timeframe for blind targets to react when engaged due to it slow RoF. The lack of CQC this side arm use to be hinders players that use all or most amarr suits, and weapons. Previously the Assualt Scrambler pistol could be contrasted with a charge Scrambler Rifle, or Laser Rifle to balance this out. With how it stands and what you are purposing this is not viable anymore. Making the Flaylock an area denial weapon would not necessarily mean giving it a large blast radius equivalent to the mass driver. Placing the Flaylock on what you are purposing here puts it in about relation to where it use to be. There are tons of reasons on youtube to show what a high RoF will spell for this. Giving it only a RoF boost doesn't really put it in it's own niche, but puts it in a bad place to be again. Flaylock needs the slowest RoF to all the side arms, just because of the fact it can deal the most damage in a single shot, along with being the only side arm to deliver splash damage. With a high RoF the flay lock will dominate all other pistol variants. Before the introduction to the new side arms using a scrambler pistol against a flay lock user was suicide, due to the fact that it didn't necessarily have the same RoF as the Assault Scrambler pistol but because it had high damage, too big of a splash, and the only thing the scrambler rifle had was RoF which wasn't giving it much of a chance given its other stats etc. *Always Grey Skies*
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:58:00 - [104] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: If the magsec doesn't get a dispersion/kick reduction I will be Pacific Ocean salty...I love the magsec. I have prof. 3 reload 3 and ammo 2 If it does get a kick/dispersion reduction don't you think that will make the weapon OP? As it stands it has more range and DPS thank the SMG, a weapon that is already a tad too usable. Your kidding me right? More DPS than the smg my arse....smg has much more DPS than the magsec. And the magsec suffers from the rail rifles ghost shots.(shots that do no damage) and a damage buff will make it OP not a dispersion or kick reduction I can speak from extensive experience in saying that generally the guy with the SMG beats the guy with the MagSec. Usually I'm the guy with the magsec... Under the right conditions (making use of the range advantage) however, the MagSec wins. Well if you look at the numbers the Magsec does do more DPS than the SMG. Please look at the spreadsheet at the beginning of this thread for mathematical confirmation if you like. The reason you might think it is lower is that fully applying the damage the Magsec puts out is more difficult, thanks to its recoil and barrel climb. Which leads me back to my question. If you eliminated that recoil and barrel climb from the Magsec woudn't that make it a totally dominant side arm thanks to its range, DPM (damage per magazine), and DPS? Remember, I'm not asking this to make anyone angry but so that we can think about all these proposed changes in a well reasoned manner. What I'm looking for is balance, making all the weapons have a realm of usability/specialization rather than the "this one is always the best" system we have had for a while. If we all think about it and come to the conclusion that reducing the recoil on the Magsec will simply make it competetive with the SMG then I am all for it. Now that I've said all of that I'd like to point out that it might be better to simply add more recoil and/or some barrel climb to the SMG, a weapon that many of us have said is far too easy to use and fit. I actually made a similar proposal when I started this tread which generated enough hate that I backed off but I really do think this is a move that would be positive for the game as a whole. Of course I will always take feedback before changing the spreadsheet. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:00:00 - [105] - Quote Rattati or Logi Bro- Could we get some numbers on how the barrel climb works on the different weapons? It doesn't need to be anything fancy or even nice looking but since accuracy keeps coming up this would be really helpful info for out balancing discussion. Fun > Realism
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 206	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:02:00 - [106] - Quote Has anyone taken into account the nerf coming towards the projectile weaponry? I think if a small damage reduction isn't a viable choice add more vertical recoil to the weapon. Nothing too serious but enough to noticeably impaire the user if they don't control it, as opposed to it's current status requiring no effort on the back end besides holding the target on your enemy. Something like 1/4 of the magsec's recoil or even 2/4 if the first option isn't enough. The bolt pistol doesn't really need much done with it in my opinion, if anything the weapon operation skill needs to be changed. Why reduce recoil of a weapon that charges between rounds? The dam thing has already returned to it's original position by the time the next round is charged. Give it a slight damage boost/and or range boost along with a skill that better applies to the weapon. Something like charge speed reduction, clip size, or range. The magsec is almost perfect as it requires skill to use effectively, while it is easily outstrafed it is a rail tech weapon and should have some drawbacks (scout super strafing is bs nonetheless). All the weapon really needs is a scope and if that cannot be implemented without a clientside update then a reduction to recoil when ADS. On a side note the rail rifle is only slightly less accurate than the magsec when hipfired, and yet more dependable in cqc situations due to magnetism which is questionable. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 143	Posted - 2014.09.05 20:10:00 - [107] - Quote Mobius Kaethis I'm not talking about removing it, I am talking about finding a dispersion, kick, and rise between the Magsec and SMG that would be a more comparable start for these two weapons. As it stands the Magsec doesn't need increased damage, the problem with it is you cant keep the gun aimed well even down sights, and the SMG is the complete opposite. The best start for these weapons is a common ground, then skew data on each to make them different and balanced from each other. From the way the Magseg and SMG stands they are both at 63m or 66m at prototype. I am not a 100% sure on this but I don't remember seeing any range adjustments for the SMG since the new weapons were added. You are not alone that the SMG needs some serious balancing. The only people who don't want this fixed is those who or ignorant to how it effects other things in the game to make it enjoyable as an whole or the ones who are against it because it brings about change to something that they are abusing. I totally understand what you are trying to do here and please understand I think it is great. To disagree with someone doesn't mean it has to be a circus like many post can be on the forum. My intentions is only to help. If CCP is paying attention to you and your nice charts I want to help with things I have tested with others. I am not sure if CCP even regards anything I constantly put up here but if your here wanting to help out and they are willing to listen to you, I would like to give non bias information your way or anyones way to what state the game mechanics or functions are in. I just want to give the best feedback even if it is what most do not want to here. At least It shows I am dependable at being one to show favoritism to something just because I like it. *Always Grey Skies*
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.05 20:38:00 - [108] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: Mobius Kaethis I'm not talking about removing it, I am talking about finding a dispersion, kick, and rise between the Magsec and SMG that would be a more comparable start for these two weapons. As it stands the Magsec doesn't need increased damage, the problem with it is you cant keep the gun aimed well even down sights, and the SMG is the complete opposite. The best start for these weapons is a common ground, then skew data on each to make them different and balanced from each other. From the way the Magseg and SMG stands they are both at 63m or 66m at prototype. I am not a 100% sure on this but I don't remember seeing any range adjustments for the SMG since the new weapons were added. You are not alone that the SMG needs some serious balancing. The only people who don't want this fixed is those who or ignorant to how it effects other things in the game to make it enjoyable as an whole or the ones who are against it because it brings about change to something that they are abusing. I totally understand what you are trying to do here and please understand I think it is great. To disagree with someone doesn't mean it has to be a circus like many post can be on the forum. My intentions is only to help. If CCP is paying attention to you and your nice charts I want to help with things I have tested with others. I am not sure if CCP even regards anything I constantly put up here but if your here wanting to help out and they are willing to listen to you, I would like to give non bias information your way or anyones way to what state the game mechanics or functions are in. I just want to give the best feedback even if it is what most do not want to here. At least It shows I am dependable at being one to show favoritism to something just because I like it. Ahh now this I totally agree with. Giving the SMG 50% of the recoil of the Magsec and reducing the Magsec's recoil to 50% of what it currently has is a great idea for balancing. It would definitely give us some clearer numbers to work with with regards to both weapons since we would know any difference between the two is not caused by the recoil. Now currently both weapons accuracies are quite close. The SMG is at 52.89 while the Magsec is 55.01. Since these numbers are so close I'm going to say that recoil is probably one of those stats we don't actually get provided to us by CCP. BTW the effective range of the Magsec is 66m while the effective range of the SMG is 48m. Fun > Realism
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 302	Posted - 2014.09.05 21:29:00 - [109] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: BTW the effective range of the Magsec is 66m while the effective range of the SMG is 48m. Which is exactly why the Mag kicks like a mule. Working as intended. Hands off my SMG, please. Wanna fight me in my optimal zone? You die. Want to kill me from outside of my optimized zone? I die. Working as intended. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 302	Posted - 2014.09.05 21:43:00 - [110] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: If the magsec doesn't get a dispersion/kick reduction I will be Pacific Ocean salty...I love the magsec. I have prof. 3 reload 3 and ammo 2 If it does get a kick/dispersion reduction don't you think that will make the weapon OP? As it stands it has more range and DPS thank the SMG, a weapon that is already a tad too usable. Your kidding me right? More DPS than the smg my arse....smg has much more DPS than the magsec. And the magsec suffers from the rail rifles ghost shots.(shots that do no damage) and a damage buff will make it OP not a dispersion or kick reduction I can speak from extensive experience in saying that generally the guy with the SMG beats the guy with the MagSec. Usually I'm the guy with the magsec... Under the right conditions (making use of the range advantage) however, the MagSec wins. ^True dat! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Mauren NOON The Exemplars 447	Posted - 2014.09.05 23:16:00 - [111] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: BTW the effective range of the Magsec is 66m while the effective range of the SMG is 48m. Which is exactly why the Mag kicks like a mule. Working as intended. Hands off my SMG, please. Wanna fight me in my optimal zone? You die. Want to kill me from outside of my optimized zone? I die. Working as intended. At the magsec's optimal it's really hard to consistently hit someone...Not working as intended Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 488	Posted - 2014.09.06 00:53:00 - [112] - Quote Rattati, hereGÇÖs my take on what the needs are for each sidearm: LetGÇÖs start with the ones that (in my opinion) need the least change and move to the ones that need more. 1)Bolt Pistol GÇô Performs extremely well in its role. Gives HMG, SG, AR, AsCR users a long range option. Very accurate and stable in ADS. Feels great. Need: Change Operation skill to 25% charge time reduction (recoil is irrelevant in ADS and not a difference maker when forced to hip fire, but even a little less charge time would make aiming a lot easier) Slightly larger clip Slightly more ammo Suggested variants: Burst Bolt Pistol GÇô Slightly less range, slightly less damage. Two rapid shots. Tactical Bolt Pistol GÇô Effective range increased to 76, slightly more damage, longer charge time, slightly more hip fire recoil, more zoom in ADS 2)Submachine Gun GÇô Performs extremely well in its role: finishing off enemies in CQC and serving as a flexible all-around sidearm for engagements inside 50m. A bit too efficient in applying its damage compared to other sidearms. Damage profile change will help it as a finisher, but hurt its flexibility. Assault SMG should be changed so itGÇÖs different, not just better. Need: Standard GÇô Slightly reduce damage; give it Assault SMG range Assault GÇô Slightly increase ROF; slightly increase dispersion, decrease effective range to 46m Breach GÇô Revamp it into the SMG with the longest range and least dispersion: keep ROF but boost damage to put DPS a tad under standard SMG; 55 meter effective range; less hip fire dispersion 3)Scrambler Pistol GÇô Works well in its role of applying damage inside 60m with good accuracy (if youGÇÖre accurate enough). ItGÇÖs fine, but honestly I think it would be a lot more fun to run the scrambler pistol if it had heat buildup. High enough heat buildup would keep it balanced, and cooldown would be slower than the scrambler rifle since the operations skill doesnGÇÖt affect it. IGÇÖm thinking a 20% increase in ROF with heat build up that will allow 8 rapid shots before overheat (slightly under 2/3 of clip). So with heat build up the scrambler pistols would look like this: (Compared to current variants) Standard GÇô Higher ROF to go with heat build up. Can be steady fired at just under current ROF to work through clip without overheating, or can be bursted quickly for alpha volleys, with a cooldown wait afterward (when bursted, can rapid fire 8 shots before overheat, leaving 5 in the clip) Assault GÇô Higher ROF; less damage; less heat build up than standard (can fire a whole clip without overheating at faster rate than current AScP, but doing less damage per round)(changed so itGÇÖs different than standard, not just better) Burst GÇô Higher ROF; longer burst interval; same heat build up as standard Breach GÇô Higher ROF; increased damage; more heat build up than standard (can GÇ£rapid fireGÇ¥ 6 shots before overheat) 4)Magsec Submachine Gun GÇô Close to performing perfectly in its niche--engaging at longer range with a punch and being serviceable in CQC--but current ADS recoil makes the gun quite inaccurate at range. Need: Keep hip fire recoil as it is but reduce ADS recoil Suggested variants: Burst Magsec SMG GÇô increased ROF; fires 4 round bursts Tactical Magsec SMG GÇô decreased ROF; slightly increased damage; reduced recoil; effective range increased to 69m; ADS has zoom scope 5)Flaylock Pistol GÇô In certain situations it still can finish off armor very quickly, but blast radius is really tight and damage per clip is low considering its extremely short range(not counting the occasional flaylock snipe). We know what itGÇÖs like when itGÇÖs OP and when itGÇÖs UP, so a middle ground needs to be found. Need: Larger blast radius (but not too big!); increased ROF; faster reload or increase clip size to 4 Suggested variants: Assault Flaylock Pistol GÇô increased splash radius; decreased damage, direct and splash; increased ROF; larger clip; increased ammo (see Assault Mass Driver) Tactical Flaylock Pistol GÇô shoots straight; faster projectile speed; 60m range before detonation; less damage, direct and splash; larger clip; increased ammo continued....
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 488	Posted - 2014.09.06 00:54:00 - [113] - Quote 6)Nova Knives GÇô These little guys are OP right now. They 2 shot heavies and 1 shot everyone else. They may not be considered a problem because for some reason not every cloaked scout is using them, but itGÇÖs like getting hit by a remote. YouGÇÖre done. I guess the counter is to keep an eye out for scouts, stay together in a protective phalanx, and take the knifer down before he gets close enough, but donGÇÖt we have enough of the game being dictated by scout behavior already without adding another way scouts can instapop people? Need: Reduce damage 7)Ion Pistol GÇô The ugly duckling. This gun struggles to apply its deficient DPS due to extremely short range and too much dispersion. ItGÇÖs charge shot can do a lot of damage if it hits, but youGÇÖre then a sitting duck due to the overheat. This gun needs a lot of changes in order to be effective in its role: applying major damage at very close range. It should keep its rate of fire so that it can succeed in its role of close range BLAP, but it needs a lot more damage and less dispersion to do it. It also needs its charge shot to work more effectively, with shorter charges, less damage per charge shot, and heat build up instead of auto-overheatGÇöallowing for multiple charge shots in a row before overheating. Need: Increase damage A LOT; increase heat build up per second (should be per shot) slightly; reduce dispersion; increase effective range to 45m; increase overheat damage and seize time Revamp charge shot GÇôreduce charge time by 40%; reduce damage by 40%; charge shots build up heat such thatGÇöstarting from no heatGÇöonly 4 can be fired before overheat; charge shots have 35m effective range Suggested variants: Assault Ion Pistol GÇô Increased ROF; reduced heat build up; 48m effective range; increased ammo; no charge shot Breach Ion Pistol GÇô Reduced ROF; increased damage; reduced dispersion; increased heat build up; charge shot has same charge time and damage as current Ion Pistol (can fire 2 charge shots before overheat)
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 202	Posted - 2014.09.06 02:05:00 - [114] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: 6)Nova Knives GÇô These little guys are OP right now. They 2 shot heavies and 1 shot everyone else. They may not be considered a problem because for some reason not every cloaked scout is using them, but itGÇÖs like getting hit by a remote. YouGÇÖre done. I guess the counter is to keep an eye out for scouts, stay together in a protective phalanx, and take the knifer down before he gets close enough, but donGÇÖt we have enough of the game being dictated by scout behavior already without adding another way scouts can instapop people? Need: Reduce damage 7)Ion Pistol GÇô The ugly duckling. This gun struggles to apply its deficient DPS due to extremely short range and too much dispersion. ItGÇÖs charge shot can do a lot of damage if it hits, but youGÇÖre then a sitting duck due to the overheat. This gun needs a lot of changes in order to be effective in its role: applying major damage at very close range. It should keep its rate of fire so that it can succeed in its role of close range BLAP, but it needs a lot more damage and less dispersion to do it. It also needs its charge shot to work more effectively, with shorter charges, less damage per charge shot, and heat build up instead of auto-overheatGÇöallowing for multiple charge shots in a row before overheating. Need: Increase damage A LOT; increase heat build up per second (should be per shot) slightly; reduce dispersion; increase effective range to 45m; increase overheat damage and seize time Revamp charge shot GÇôreduce charge time by 40%; reduce damage by 40%; charge shots build up heat such thatGÇöstarting from no heatGÇöonly 4 can be fired before overheat; charge shots have 35m effective range Suggested variants: Assault Ion Pistol GÇô Increased ROF; reduced heat build up; 48m effective range; increased ammo; no charge shot Breach Ion Pistol GÇô Reduced ROF; increased damage; reduced dispersion; increased heat build up; charge shot has same charge time and damage as current Ion Pistol (can fire 2 charge shots before overheat) One of the main reasons that nova knives are 'OP' is that when using them, I discover that the majority of players on the team have the worst awareness. THE WORST I tell you... and as a Sentinel, I find it quite difficult to get killed by a knifer consistently, but usually it's 50/50. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1700	Posted - 2014.09.06 02:57:00 - [115] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: 6)Nova Knives GÇô These little guys are OP right now. They 2 shot heavies and 1 shot everyone else. They may not be considered a problem because for some reason not every cloaked scout is using them, but itGÇÖs like getting hit by a remote. YouGÇÖre done. I guess the counter is to keep an eye out for scouts, stay together in a protective phalanx, and take the knifer down before he gets close enough, but donGÇÖt we have enough of the game being dictated by scout behavior already without adding another way scouts can instapop people? If you're bringing knives to a gunfight, and you are fast enough to get that close, you have earned your kill. Shoot Scout with yes.
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 488	Posted - 2014.09.06 03:01:00 - [116] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: 6)Nova Knives GÇô These little guys are OP right now. They 2 shot heavies and 1 shot everyone else. They may not be considered a problem because for some reason not every cloaked scout is using them, but itGÇÖs like getting hit by a remote. YouGÇÖre done. I guess the counter is to keep an eye out for scouts, stay together in a protective phalanx, and take the knifer down before he gets close enough, but donGÇÖt we have enough of the game being dictated by scout behavior already without adding another way scouts can instapop people? If you're bringing knives to a gunfight, and you are fast enough to get that close, you have earned your kill. No. You haven't earned anything. You did the opposite of earning something. You put on kincats, cloaked up, ran behind someone, briefly held down R1, and released it.
Jace Kaisar 145	Posted - 2014.09.06 03:03:00 - [117] - Quote Mauren NOON wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: BTW the effective range of the Magsec is 66m while the effective range of the SMG is 48m. Which is exactly why the Mag kicks like a mule. Working as intended. Hands off my SMG, please. Wanna fight me in my optimal zone? You die. Want to kill me from outside of my optimized zone? I die. Working as intended. At the magsec's optimal it's really hard to consistently hit someone...Not working as intended It needs that bolt pistol scope I'm a Spooky Scary Ghost Before you ask, yes this is me.
Jace Kaisar 145	Posted - 2014.09.06 03:04:00 - [118] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: 6)Nova Knives GÇô These little guys are OP right now. They 2 shot heavies and 1 shot everyone else. They may not be considered a problem because for some reason not every cloaked scout is using them, but itGÇÖs like getting hit by a remote. YouGÇÖre done. I guess the counter is to keep an eye out for scouts, stay together in a protective phalanx, and take the knifer down before he gets close enough, but donGÇÖt we have enough of the game being dictated by scout behavior already without adding another way scouts can instapop people? If you're bringing knives to a gunfight, and you are fast enough to get that close, you have earned your kill. No. You haven't earned anything. You did the opposite of earning something. You put on kincats, cloaked up, ran behind someone, briefly held down R1, and released it. And you didn't run with a squad and regularly check your six. Scout used stealth and eWAR to get the drop on you. Working as intended. We punish the solo players who don't pay attention. Or those who are simply preoccupied with other things I'm a Spooky Scary Ghost Before you ask, yes this is me.
Jace Kaisar 145	Posted - 2014.09.06 03:12:00 - [119] - Quote Flaylock Pistol: Homogenized splash radius and damage across the tiers (1.5m and 150 splash damage. At max skills this gives it 1.875m splash and 202.5 splash damage VS. ARMOR) Direct damage increases across the tiers as follows 200, 250, 300 (with max skills, this deals 270, 337.5, 400.5. Please note that these are DIRECT shots with Max proficiency against armor. Increase projectile speed. OPTIONAL: Increase clip size by one. It's still good to use at basic tier by people who can't aim, but the real DPS comes from Proto tier direct shots, which are capable of blasting though people (Damage makes sense. You're hitting someone with a literal pocket rocket. Sucker should hurt.) Max DPC is 12001.5 or 1602 (3-4 Direct Shots) However, every missed direct shot subtracts around 200 damage from the target. Min - Max is as follows for the three round flaylock 600-1200 Typical users hit once directly and twice with splash, giving it a balanced DPC of 800, which is enough to kill most targets. I'm a Spooky Scary Ghost Before you ask, yes this is me.
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 490	Posted - 2014.09.06 07:04:00 - [120] - Quote Jace Kaisar wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: 6)Nova Knives GÇô These little guys are OP right now. They 2 shot heavies and 1 shot everyone else. They may not be considered a problem because for some reason not every cloaked scout is using them, but itGÇÖs like getting hit by a remote. YouGÇÖre done. I guess the counter is to keep an eye out for scouts, stay together in a protective phalanx, and take the knifer down before he gets close enough, but donGÇÖt we have enough of the game being dictated by scout behavior already without adding another way scouts can instapop people? If you're bringing knives to a gunfight, and you are fast enough to get that close, you have earned your kill. No. You haven't earned anything. You did the opposite of earning something. You put on kincats, cloaked up, ran behind someone, briefly held down R1, and released it. And you didn't run with a squad and regularly check your six. Scout used stealth and eWAR to get the drop on you. Working as intended. We punish the solo players who don't pay attention. Or those who are simply preoccupied with other things It's so quiet you can quickly dispatch people who are near their squad mates and on comms, then duck away and cloak before anyone knows where to look. OP.

Finn Colman Black Talon Company 41	Posted - 2014.09.06 15:30:00 - [121] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Jace Kaisar wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: 6)Nova Knives GÇô These little guys are OP right now. They 2 shot heavies and 1 shot everyone else. They may not be considered a problem because for some reason not every cloaked scout is using them, but itGÇÖs like getting hit by a remote. YouGÇÖre done. I guess the counter is to keep an eye out for scouts, stay together in a protective phalanx, and take the knifer down before he gets close enough, but donGÇÖt we have enough of the game being dictated by scout behavior already without adding another way scouts can instapop people? If you're bringing knives to a gunfight, and you are fast enough to get that close, you have earned your kill. No. You haven't earned anything. You did the opposite of earning something. You put on kincats, cloaked up, ran behind someone, briefly held down R1, and released it. And you didn't run with a squad and regularly check your six. Scout used stealth and eWAR to get the drop on you. Working as intended. We punish the solo players who don't pay attention. Or those who are simply preoccupied with other things It's so quiet you can quickly dispatch people who are near their squad mates and on comms, then duck away and cloak before anyone knows where to look. OP. Take this into account... I use modules that are a much better use of my CPU/PG than a stupid cloak that hardly helps me at all. This is likely because I'm not using the cloak in the best way (e.g., using it in a dark place where the shimmer is most noticeable). Either way, I get more performance out of my modules than I would be able to fit with a cloak. I rely on the stealth tactics I learned from Tom Clancy, and that includes purposeful detection, and simply hiding in opportune areas of the environment. I use a STD Combat rifle (mainly for grabbing the enemies attention) and ADV knives (PRO are kind of a waste of ISK unless you're hunting heavies). The cloak is just a burden in my case. I will note that the cloak is meant to be somewhat loud upon activation and deactivation, and from what I'm hearing this is not the case. Now, my main point here is to stop making assumptions, not all of us use cloaks.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1790	Posted - 2014.09.06 16:48:00 - [122] - Quote Unless one of the Dev's is directing conversations about nova knives here I really do think it should be saved for another thread. The knives are such a different animal that balancing them against the pistols and SMGs doesn't really make sense. Lets refocus. Fun > Realism
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 144	Posted - 2014.09.06 17:01:00 - [123] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Unless one of the Dev's is directing conversations about nova knives here I really do think it should be saved for another thread. The knives are such a different animal that balancing them against the pistols and SMGs doesn't really make sense. Lets refocus. It's still a side arm, and he's right. It should be included or at least brought to CCP's attention. Shotguns and Nova knives i think are within the same boat. Perhaps once CCP puts a bit more tweaks to hard limit the amount of damage a shotgun does up close per shot, and instead giving nova knife users their current mechanics when knifing someone in the back this might finish balancing everything out well. As it stands not many have caught on to nova knives and how incredibly strong they are. Once they do we will see helpful and destructive comments about what needs to be done to it. *Always Grey Skies*
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 202	Posted - 2014.09.06 17:33:00 - [124] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Jace Kaisar wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: 6)Nova Knives GÇô These little guys are OP right now. They 2 shot heavies and 1 shot everyone else. They may not be considered a problem because for some reason not every cloaked scout is using them, but itGÇÖs like getting hit by a remote. YouGÇÖre done. I guess the counter is to keep an eye out for scouts, stay together in a protective phalanx, and take the knifer down before he gets close enough, but donGÇÖt we have enough of the game being dictated by scout behavior already without adding another way scouts can instapop people? If you're bringing knives to a gunfight, and you are fast enough to get that close, you have earned your kill. No. You haven't earned anything. You did the opposite of earning something. You put on kincats, cloaked up, ran behind someone, briefly held down R1, and released it. And you didn't run with a squad and regularly check your six. Scout used stealth and eWAR to get the drop on you. Working as intended. We punish the solo players who don't pay attention. Or those who are simply preoccupied with other things It's so quiet you can quickly dispatch people who are near their squad mates and on comms, then duck away and cloak before anyone knows where to look. OP. Nova Knives are quiet for you? I find them to be loud as f*ck. If you attempt to knife me and miss, I'm going to turn 180 on your ass. What level of volume do you people play on? I like to be able to hear things to point of one's footsteps, which are quiet on anything but the dirt/gravel/sand across the field. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 492	Posted - 2014.09.06 18:14:00 - [125] - Quote Quiet for my surrounding teammates. It doesn't alert everyone in the immediate area like the shotgun. The sound is not as loud or noticeable.
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 891	Posted - 2014.09.06 22:25:00 - [126] - Quote So, in order to bring more awareness to the underlying issues with the ion pistol, and at the behest of Rattati, I'll be reposting my main thoughts from this thread to here. Sorry if it seems spammy, but I really don't want this gun buffed improperly. After reading the thread on sidearm changes, as an avid ion pistol user I was disappointed to find very little feedback given on how to fix the ion pistol other than, "just change the damage to x per shot and the dispersion to y%." But to be honest, those suggestions really don't fix the problems that are at the root of the weapons woes. First let me give you a quick synopsis on how the ion pistol functions for those of you that either have not tried it, or have only tried it once and then never touched it again, (for good reason.) The ion pistol has 12 shots, each dealing 50, 52.5, and 55 damage per meta level. The weapon is hybrid-plasma, giving it a +10%, -10% for damage against shields and armor respectively. The ranges for each are 20/35, 22/39, and 24/42 for the optimal and effective ranges per meta level. And the range is where we encounter our first issue. The weapon does -not- apply damage past it's effective range. This has been a problem since the weapon was released along side the bolt pistol. However while the bolt pistol was eventually fixed, the ion pistol is still splashing about like a flounder forcing its users to constantly be within nearly shotgun range just to apply damage. To apply this damage, you can either fire one fully charged shot for a 7x multiplier which comes out to 385 on shields or 315 to armor. Or you can rapidly fire single shots with tiny charge multipliers gained from just the quick tap until the weapon overheats. Overheating at 11 shots with operation one is not uncommon. A full charge immediately overheats as well as a 1/2 charge. The overheat lasts about 3 seconds and is generally a death sentence. The maximum ROF for the weapon is 375. However again, there are problems here with the gun firing false positives and seizing between shots. I've noticed on -many- occasions where the gun will fire 3-4 shots while I try to finish off an opponent, but only 2 will have actually left the clip. This gives the player a false perspective on how well the gun is performing. "Oh, he has a sliver of health, and I just shot 4 rounds with 3 of them hitting." However in reality, only 2 rounds were actually fired, and only one round actually hit the enemy for damage. I can not tell you how many times this has happened to me..... For me it's come to the point of just mashing R1 until the gun overheats regardless of what the gun is showing. The dispersion is one of the worst in the game at 46.65. The only things with worse dispersion are the HMG and the shotgun. And we know how fickle the shotgun can be, and the HMG throws out bullets 6-16 times faster and allows over 200 shots before it overheats Next comes the operation skill, and this I believe to be the biggest propagator of problems for the ion pistol. Each level of the operation skill quickens the charge up rate per shot of the ion pistol by 5% for a 25% faster charge up at level 5. Let me show a couple numbers here to represent how this functions. Let's say that the overheat happens at 100. A full charge costs 100 heat causing an instant overheat. Each tap costs let's say 9.5 heat at the bare minimum with the fastest shot you can fire causing an overheat after the 11th shot, a common occurrence. Now let's apply the level 5 'bonus'. Regardless of weather you want it to or not, with level 5 operation, each shot now charges the weapon 25% more than it did before, even with the same length of a short tap. This means that the original 9.5 heat per shot is now 11.875 heat per shot. So now you are guaranteed an overheat on the 9th shot with short trigger pulls, and if you hold down one of the shots for a fraction of a second too long it becomes very easy to overheat it even on the 8th shot. Getting level 5 operation effectively removes a large portion of the damage you would be able to apply before an overheat otherwise. Basically, the more you invest in the weapon, the less you get out of it. It is almost exactly the opposite of the Scrambler Pistol really. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 891	Posted - 2014.09.06 22:25:00 - [127] - Quote So how do we fix it? The gun needs a few things. First and foremost, fix the stupid effective range bug. That's something that should have been fixed with the bolt pistol and will act as a massive buff in and of itself. Next fix the false positives. If the gun isn't actually firing a round, I don't want to see a round. If you believe a damage buff is in order, it should only be a fairly minor one. 55, 57.5, 60 tops. Although that's only a 5 damage per shot increase, it adds a potential 60 to the mag, and just under 39 extra damage for a full charge shot. Next decrease the dispersion slightly and I do mean ever so slightly, no more than 10%. After you put this on a fully pimped Gallente assault and throw a couple levels into the dispersion, it's actually quite manageable. However if you guys at CCP decide to change the Gallente assault bonus to not include a dispersion bonus, then whatever you remove should absolutely be added to the base level of the Ion Pistol. Having that bonus is paramount to making the Ion Pistol a viable weapon. Finally you -need- to change the operation skill of the Ion Pistol. In my opinion it would be best to change it from the current -5% charge up time, to a new -5% heat build up per charge. Let me explain how this would function. Let's keep the overheat at 100 and the full charge at 100. But let's change the quick fire heat build up to a base 10. This means that at level 0 operation, (should CCP implement a militia variant) the gun will overheat either after a full charge, or 10 shots. Let's add operation 1. Now a full charge only does 95 heat and allows for a follow up quick shot which now only cost 9.5 and allows for 11 shots to be fired otherwise. Operation 2: Full charge is 90, allows for 2 follow up shots at 9 per piece and you can finally fire off the full 12 without overheating. Operation 3: Full charge is 85, still only allows for 2 follow up shots at 8.5 per shot. Operation 4: Full charge is 80, allows for 3 follow up shots before overheating at 8 per shot. Operation 5: Full charge is 75, allows for 4 follow up shots at 7.5 per shot. So now with the new bonus you actually -get- a decent return on your investment by being punished less from the overheat and actually incentivising the use of the charge thus getting rid of the current thought process of, "Oh god no I accidentally charged it, I'm screwed..." TL:DR Fix effective range bug Minor dispersion reduction Fix false positives when rapid firing the weapon Possible, but not 100% necessary small damage buff Change operation skill from charge time reduction to heat sink What do ya'all think of this, thoughts and other ideas are absolutely welcome, I'd love to hear from other ion pistol users and CCP folks on the matter. :) O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 891	Posted - 2014.09.06 22:26:00 - [128] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I really like the idea of the charged shot functioning like a mini-shotgun. That may not be possible in a hotfix. This isn't a weapon I ever use, but it seems like a really excellent discussion by people who have a solid grasp of the mechanics. Let me put the 'ion pistol shotgun' idea in a different light. If it were function like the afore mentioned, realistically, it would function like the plasma cannon. It has a charge up time, it deals massive damage, and it only has one shot in the clip before reloading. But now imagine if the plasma cannon had a longer charge up, dealt less damage at full potential, had less range, did less damage at range, had a longer reload, had less ammo in reserve, and almost never dealt full damage even within its optimal and directly on target. That does not sound like a fun weapon to use. And indeed I feel we already have a weapon that functions even closer to the ion pistol shotgun theory: the breach shotgun. A super powerful alpha shotgun with very few bullets in the chamber and a long reload. But now imagine using the breach shotgun where it deals less damage, has a 2 second charge up time, has less ammo in reserve, has a mandatory reload after every shot, and its reload takes twice as long. Think about how often you see the breach shotgun being used on the field and realize that's what you're saying you want the charge functionality to be as effective as. The only people who use the breach shotgun are newbros that are still experimenting, and people who are engaging in shenanigans or are trying to make a montage to look good. I'm looking to make the gun viable, not more gimmicky. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 891	Posted - 2014.09.06 22:28:00 - [129] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Daddrobit wrote: Mercy Snip :) That's a good point. So why not keep the damage multiplier for shotgun blasts too? I think there's a lot of room to play around with the stats to make it useful without surpassing the actual shotgun or outperforming other sidearms. I just like the concept of having a wide array of fun/interesting weapons that all feel very different. A slightly different version of the scrambler pistol is kinda underwhelming. Maybe this is to gimmicky to be practical though. I haven't spent nearly as much time analyzing this as you have, so I admit I could be totally wrong here. Before my thoughts on how I'd potentially get the ion pistol shotty to work, here's a thought on weapon variations. Personally, I feel like the IP does function in a manner that is fun/interesting/unique in comparison to the other sidearms. It's not that it's a slightly different scrambler pistol, it's that it's a miniature ScR, much in the same way that the ScP is a miniature Tac AR. Like how the flaylock is a miniature mass driver and the smg is a miniature ACR. To call the IP a slightly different ScP is like to call the ScR a slightly different Tac AR. I understand that you like and want more weapon variety, but to take away one variant in place of another just because it doesn't currently function at an optimal level is a step back in my opinion. We have the unique weapon system in place, we just need to figure out how to make it work. But that's not to say I don't completely dislike the theory of having a pocket shotty sidearm. I do think it's an interesting idea, I just don't want to have my sidearm stripped of me to make that one a possibility. So what if you petitioned to make an ion pistol -Variant- that functions as a pocket shotty? So far we only have one type of IP while the smg and ScP both get several of their own, I'd certainly like to see more variety in the gallente section. As to how you would make that work, I came up with a possible solution. At first I thought that it might be feasible to give all the bullets fired a damage modifier equal to the % required to charge it that far, but I quickly realized this would make it sickeningly OP because of the scaling. To explain, one bullet is 1/12 a charge, so give that single bullet 8.3% of a 7x charge multiplier, which translates to 58%. Then two bullets would each have a multiplier of 116% and so on. At 6 bullets, each would be fired with a 350% damage modifier totaling 1050 damage. 12 bullets each with a full 700% damage would become a tank buster at 4200 damage. That's the basic variant. No thank you. Back to the drawing boards. So then I thought, well, just give each bullet a damage modifier of just how much it requires to charge for that single bullet. Basically, just give each bullet a 58% damage modifier. A single shot does 79, two does 158, three does 237. No odd scaling here but still capable of ludicrous power. 12 shots would still have the potential to do 948 damage, throw on a damage mod and you're putting out over a 1000 damage. You're one shotting most suits in the game at the basic level here and you're able to do it at 20 meters. It still seems a bit much. So then I realized, why do we have to damage mod it at all now that we're talking a different variant? Pop the base damage per shot to 55 and then let the charge simply determine how many shots are fired, no tinkering with damage modification at all. 12 shots would net you 660 damage so you're still one shotting most militia frames, but well tanked basic suits and above would still survive. Again, you're losing damage versus the standard IP as each one of those pellets could have been damage modded, but the full charge of the shotty IP does more damage that that of the standard, so maybe that would sway people in that direction. And I have to stress this again, should CCP be listening here, this should really only be considered as a variant, I want my basic version fixed, not replaced. And that's the end of my spam, thanks for putting up with me. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 209	Posted - 2014.09.07 08:19:00 - [130] - Quote Hey rattati I know you're monitoring this thread so can you tell us how you're feeling about the ideas presented so far? Planetside 2 Eventually Eh

Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 144	Posted - 2014.09.07 15:32:00 - [131] - Quote Great posts Daddrobit! On one of my accounts I have all side arms, but my Ion Pistol isn't all the way compared to yours. It is good to see others wanting side arms to be viable rather than something for decoration. Thus far since I saw the google document above they are making the side arms with the exception of the Magsec and SMG non viable. I have stated if they want pistols to be viable the scrambler pistol's current RoF should be avoided by Ion Pistols, and Scrambler Pistols. I feel the range on the Ion Pistol needs to be decent enough for the charge shot to be viable, but just under the range of the scrambler pistol. I think the mechanics for the Bolt Pistol is backwards and should have the second slowest RoF, just above the Flaylock Pistol. The Bolt Pistol just seems to need to give the much needed contrast to Caldari weapons. The Rail Rifle, and Magsec all do fast damage from far distances. The Bolt Pistol is the missing change up. A close range side arm that concentrates on heavy damage. *Always Grey Skies*
Jammeh McJam New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 121	Posted - 2014.09.07 16:31:00 - [132] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Magsec needs to have a better scope, and needs less kick when aimed down sight. DPS feels fine. the SMG needs more kick as there is practically none. 2x Scope would be perfect, possibly like the RDS for the scrambler. I told ya the DPS was fine The magsec needs the bolt pistols scope "We may be small and disorganized, but we're still gonna kill you" - Intergalactic Super Friends MAG ~ Raven vet
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1801	Posted - 2014.09.07 16:52:00 - [133] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: Fix effective range bug Minor dispersion reduction Fix false positives when rapid firing the weapon Possible, but not 100% necessary small damage buff Change operation skill from charge time reduction to heat sink So what I'm hearing from you is that you would generally like to see some weapon bugs fixed which would help all the weapons but greatly help the Ion Pistol but then you'd also like to see the IP's heat build up change to a per-shot heat build up (kind of like the ScR's heat build up over time fired) as well as changing the operations skill to match this new mechanic. I could get behind those changes for sure since the bug fixing certainly should happen if needed, though I must admit it is not something I have ever actually noticed when using the IP. My only concern is that since the IP has one of the lowest DPS in the game with out a large RoF or damage buff it really isn't going to become any more usable. While DPS isn't king it really does dictate a lot about how a weapon is used, especially in a weapon with range as short as the IP. Good stuff though. I'd love to see your take on the other pistols as well. Fun > Realism
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 495	Posted - 2014.09.07 17:42:00 - [134] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: Regardless of weather you want it to or not, with level 5 operation, each shot now charges the weapon 25% more than it did before, even with the same length of a short tap. This means that the original 9.5 heat per shot is now 11.875 heat per shot. So now you are guaranteed an overheat on the 9th shot with short trigger pulls, and if you hold down one of the shots for a fraction of a second too long it becomes very easy to overheat it even on the 8th shot. Getting level 5 operation effectively removes a large portion of the damage you would be able to apply before an overheat otherwise. Basically, the more you invest in the weapon, the less you get out of it. It is almost exactly the opposite of the Scrambler Pistol really. Are you sure? IIRC heat build up in Dust is over time, so if charges are taking less time you should be able to mini-charge more in the same amount of time, thus getting more mini-charge shots per heat.
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 897	Posted - 2014.09.07 22:30:00 - [135] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Daddrobit wrote: Fix effective range bug Minor dispersion reduction Fix false positives when rapid firing the weapon Possible, but not 100% necessary small damage buff Change operation skill from charge time reduction to heat sink So what I'm hearing from you is that you would generally like to see some weapon bugs fixed which would help all the weapons but greatly help the Ion Pistol but then you'd also like to see the IP's heat build up change to a per-shot heat build up (kind of like the ScR's heat build up over time fired) as well as changing the operations skill to match this new mechanic. I could get behind those changes for sure since the bug fixing certainly should happen if needed, though I must admit it is not something I have ever actually noticed when using the IP. My only concern is that since the IP has one of the lowest DPS in the game with out a large RoF or damage buff it really isn't going to become any more usable. While DPS isn't king it really does dictate a lot about how a weapon is used, especially in a weapon with range as short as the IP. Good stuff though. I'd love to see your take on the other pistols as well. It's not that I want it to have a per shot heat value, it's just in that testing by these guys, it was discovered that even a slight tap on average charges about 6-7% and provides about a 45% minicharge. I don't want this to go away, I just want the operation to actually work in tandem with this function by lessening the heat punishment and not hindering it. And as for weather or not it will make the IP just as useable as the other weapons, maybe/probably not, but every little buff helps, and seeing as how I'm now personally able to use it nearly as well as I use the smg, I'll certainly be a happy camper. :) zzZaXxx wrote: Daddrobit wrote: Regardless of weather you want it to or not, with level 5 operation, each shot now charges the weapon 25% more than it did before, even with the same length of a short tap. This means that the original 9.5 heat per shot is now 11.875 heat per shot. So now you are guaranteed an overheat on the 9th shot with short trigger pulls, and if you hold down one of the shots for a fraction of a second too long it becomes very easy to overheat it even on the 8th shot. Getting level 5 operation effectively removes a large portion of the damage you would be able to apply before an overheat otherwise. Basically, the more you invest in the weapon, the less you get out of it. It is almost exactly the opposite of the Scrambler Pistol really. Are you sure? IIRC heat build up in Dust is over time, so if charges are taking less time you should be able to mini-charge more in the same amount of time, thus getting more mini-charge shots per heat. EDIT: Okay so you're saying the heat build up is associated with charge amount, not time, but how do you know the 11.87 heat mini-charge shots aren't doing more damage. If so you're not losing damage, just getting slightly more damage per mini-charge shot and less shots before overheat. Oh and Daddrobit, what do you think of my Ion Pistol suggestion? Although the bullets will be doing more damage per shot until the overheat, you will still be taking a net loss. 12551.45=957 damage 9551.81=895 damage or 796 damage if you overheat it on the 8th shot. Even with the greater per shot value, you're losing damage. As for your suggestions, I think my afore mentioned thoughts pretty much satisfied those constraints. "So then I realized, why do we have to damage mod it at all now that we're talking a different variant? Pop the base damage per shot to 55 and then let the charge simply determine how many shots are fired, no tinkering with damage modification at all. 12 shots would net you 660 damage so you're still one shotting most militia frames, but well tanked basic suits and above would still survive. Again, you're losing damage versus the standard IP as each one of those pellets could have been damage modded, but the full charge of the shotty IP does more damage that that of the standard, so maybe that would sway people in that direction." 660 damage is more damage than a standard IPs charge shot + 3 standard shots on top of it, so it's nothing to be sneezed at. However, without the minicharges whenever you rapid fire it like a ScP you'll be dealing less damage than the standard issue. And if you knew that your target didn't need a full clip to finish off, you could always just partial charge it and let out a half or a quarter to insta-blap them. Although it would have less damage in the clip, instantly dealing 660 damage at 20 meters seems like it would be able to potentially sway people in favor of using it over the standard IP no? O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Vesta Opalus Kang Lo Holding 24	Posted - 2014.09.08 18:21:00 - [136] - Quote Howdy, Not sure if you are still monitoring this thread (make it a sticky maybe?), but here goes: I only have three things to talk about 1. Bolt pistol change: You proposed a raise to the fire rate of this guy, and I think maybe raising the damage would be more fun (leave fire rate same, but increase damage per shot to increase its dps). Raising the fire rate kind of changes the character of the weapon. Its kind of a slow considerate shooting, and I like how it feels compared to other sidearms. I think raising its fire rate would make it a different weapon altogether, which would be sad. 2. Bolt pistol reserve ammunition. I dont see any mention in this sheet with the reserve ammunition of each weapon. But I think its a pretty big issue. Right now I feel like when I use the SMG I have ammo enough to kill 10+ people, whereas when I use my bolt pistol (which I have to proto, where my SMG is only ADV), I feel like Im guzzling nanohives. I think maybe evening out the damage you have in your reserve ammo would be a nice thing to do, so each sidearm doesnt feel like its dramatically more needy than others. 3. Flaylock STD/ADV tiers: I think the explosive radius is pretty poor on these, I think maybe evening them all out to current proto flaylock radius would be nice. I rarely see non-proto variants of flaylock, and theres a reason for that, the proto radius is just right, but at STD/ADV level, they are too small.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1808	Posted - 2014.09.09 07:20:00 - [137] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Howdy, Not sure if you are still monitoring this thread (make it a sticky maybe?), but here goes: I only have three things to talk about 1. Bolt pistol change: You proposed a raise to the fire rate of this guy, and I think maybe raising the damage would be more fun (leave fire rate same, but increase damage per shot to increase its dps). Raising the fire rate kind of changes the character of the weapon. Its kind of a slow considerate shooting, and I like how it feels compared to other sidearms. I think raising its fire rate would make it a different weapon altogether, which would be sad. 2. Bolt pistol reserve ammunition. I dont see any mention in this sheet with the reserve ammunition of each weapon. But I think its a pretty big issue. Right now I feel like when I use the SMG I have ammo enough to kill 10+ people, whereas when I use my bolt pistol (which I have to proto, where my SMG is only ADV), I feel like Im guzzling nanohives. I think maybe evening out the damage you have in your reserve ammo would be a nice thing to do, so each sidearm doesnt feel like its dramatically more needy than others. 3. Flaylock STD/ADV tiers: I think the explosive radius is pretty poor on these, I think maybe evening them all out to current proto flaylock radius would be nice. I rarely see non-proto variants of flaylock, and theres a reason for that, the proto radius is just right, but at STD/ADV level, they are too small. 1. Interesting point. What do the rest of you think? Should I lower the RoF of the bolt pistol back to normal and buff its per shot damage to keep its DPS the same as it is in my proposed stats? I do like that it keeps the weapons current character a bit more. 2. I hadn't thought about this but you are totally right. I will look into total damage potential of all ammo as an important stat too and add it to the spreadsheet. I feel like all weapons should have similar total damage potential. 3. I am pretty oppsed to a radius buff for the Flaylock since this is what made it so OP back in the day. I would be just fine with changing the operation skill and giving all Flaylocks the 1.5m blast radius of the proto weapon though as that is well within the acceptable range from what I can tell. Any thoughts on what a better alternative to the current operations skill would be? More range perhaps? Now with more evil.
Vesta Opalus Kang Lo Holding 26	Posted - 2014.09.09 16:27:00 - [138] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: 3. I am pretty oppsed to a radius buff for the Flaylock since this is what made it so OP back in the day. I would be just fine with changing the operation skill and giving all Flaylocks the 1.5m blast radius of the proto weapon though as that is well within the acceptable range from what I can tell. Any thoughts on what a better alternative to the current operations skill would be? More range perhaps? Yeah I remember those days too, but lets be 100% super real talk: even then most people used the Core Flaylock. The basic mechanics of a weapon should be similar across all tiers, and this isnt like the mass driver where the radius of explosion is pretty damn large even at STD level. The size of the explosion of STD/ADV tier flaylocks is so small that they become pretty much unusable, especially for players using controllers who have a harder time with fine aiming. But hey I have it protod out, so whatever happens, I got mine jack ;d
PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 203	Posted - 2014.09.09 21:06:00 - [139] - Quote Flaylock should be basic/advanced/proto 2/2.50/3m spalsh radius 150/175/200 splash damage 200/250/300 direct damage. This way you can hit your splash shots and get 600 total damage per clip at proto. With the extended splash radius you can hit your shots more, and if you get a direct hit you get 100hp more than splash. The 600hp per clip at proto would disable an armour tanking prototypes shield and eat into the armour a bit. Against proto shield it might disable or almost disable its shields. And as a sidearm, being pulled out as a finisher, would be great at its role, and, i believe balanced with other sidearms like the SMG. Lets say I'm running my Gal assault with the duvolle and core flaylock and i run into a min, assault with the boundless cr and Ishukone assault SMG. We exchange bullets with our primaries and get each other down to 400hp. I think if we then pulled out our sidearms it would be a very balanced fight. After 1 round from me he is down to 200hp and in that time i am down close to 200hp. in the time it takes for me to fire again I'm down 200hp as well. Then we would finish each other off. Please consider this. 44/4 in a BPO Scout (1.8) 40/5 in a Proto Assault (1.7) Open Beta Vet 27mil sp R.I.P Dust 514
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 211	Posted - 2014.09.09 21:12:00 - [140] - Quote PLAYSTTION wrote: Flaylock should be basic/advanced/proto 2/2.50/3m spalsh radius 150/175/200 splash damage 200/250/300 direct damage. This way you can hit your splash shots and get 600 total damage per clip at proto. With the extended splash radius you can hit your shots more, and if you get a direct hit you get 100hp more than splash. The 600hp per clip at proto would disable an armour tanking prototypes shield and eat into the armour a bit. Against proto shield it might disable or almost disable its shields. And as a sidearm, being pulled out as a finisher, would be great at its role, and, i believe balanced with other sidearms like the SMG. Lets say I'm running my Gal assault with the duvolle and core flaylock and i run into a min, assault with the boundless cr and Ishukone assault SMG. We exchange bullets with our primaries and get each other down to 400hp. I think if we then pulled out our sidearms it would be a very balanced fight. After 1 round from me he is down to 200hp and in that time i am down close to 200hp. in the time it takes for me to fire again I'm down 200hp as well. Then we would finish each other off. Please consider this. So basically you're saying to revert the flaylock back to its pre-nerf status. Listen to the previous posts blast radius increase isn't the answer unless you're planning on nerfing the splash damage in exchange for the lack of skill it requires. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh

Cpt McReady Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2014.09.10 08:10:00 - [141] - Quote most comments here revolve around "buff my favorite looking sidearm, nerf the rest" and regarding SMG, it as hard to fit as a combat rifle, sometimes even harder as it requires more PG and tanking modules are PG heavy but for the fitting requirements it does not have the range or dps of a combat rifle. all other sidearms have lower CPU/PG/both requirements. if you want the other sidearms to get better then expect higher fitting requirements too.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 121	Posted - 2014.09.10 15:58:00 - [142] - Quote alot of people seem to be discussing cloaks in this thread, which is wrong altogether. However i will just say this: cloaks are relatively easy to spot with a good eye and need no tweaks from my perspective as a scout killer, any more and they would not be stealthy, but limiting modules for self inflicted bare bones survival. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 260	Posted - 2014.09.10 19:30:00 - [143] - Quote Cpt McReady wrote: most comments here revolve around "buff my favorite looking sidearm, nerf the rest" and regarding SMG, it as hard to fit as a combat rifle, sometimes even harder as it requires more PG and tanking modules are PG heavy but for the fitting requirements it does not have the range or dps of a combat rifle. all other sidearms have lower CPU/PG/both requirements. if you want the other sidearms to get better then expect higher fitting requirements too. Lol. That's a bad thing? The CR is rediculously easy to fit. It isn't that the SMG is harder to fit comparatively, the CR is super easy to fit comparatively.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1813	Posted - 2014.09.11 21:08:00 - [144] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Cpt McReady wrote: most comments here revolve around "buff my favorite looking sidearm, nerf the rest" and regarding SMG, it as hard to fit as a combat rifle, sometimes even harder as it requires more PG and tanking modules are PG heavy but for the fitting requirements it does not have the range or dps of a combat rifle. all other sidearms have lower CPU/PG/both requirements. if you want the other sidearms to get better then expect higher fitting requirements too. Lol. That's a bad thing? The CR is rediculously easy to fit. It isn't that the SMG is harder to fit comparatively, the CR is super easy to fit comparatively. This is my opinion as well. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1813	Posted - 2014.09.11 22:02:00 - [145] - Quote In my OP I stated that I was only showing proto weapons on the spreadsheet but that each tier should only be 5% less damaging that the tier above it. So: Advanced has 5% less DPS than Proto Basic has 5% less DPS than Advanced I'd like to add to my initial idea by saying that I think accuracy should also change 5% by tier. So: Advanced would have 5% poorer accuracy than Proto and Standard would have poorer accuracy than Advanced. As with rifles, side-arm range should be equalized among tiers with all weapons adopting the range profile of their proto varients. No, one commented on these ideas in my first post so lets give it a go again. Are these good ideas? Do they suck? What would you change to make all the weapons perfectly balanced? Now with more evil.
Cpt McReady Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2014.09.12 15:09:00 - [146] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Cpt McReady wrote: most comments here revolve around "buff my favorite looking sidearm, nerf the rest" and regarding SMG, it as hard to fit as a combat rifle, sometimes even harder as it requires more PG and tanking modules are PG heavy but for the fitting requirements it does not have the range or dps of a combat rifle. all other sidearms have lower CPU/PG/both requirements. if you want the other sidearms to get better then expect higher fitting requirements too. Lol. That's a bad thing? The CR is rediculously easy to fit. It isn't that the SMG is harder to fit comparatively, the CR is super easy to fit comparatively. easy to fit... on a non minmatar suits. and that is an issue because no drawbacks exist in fitting weaponry of other nations but this is not related to sidearm balance.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7109	Posted - 2014.09.15 16:32:00 - [147] - Quote bump, and tomorrow we will post sidearm numbers! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3177	Posted - 2014.09.15 16:44:00 - [148] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: bump, and tomorrow we will post sidearm numbers! You're going to make me spec into Ion Pistols, aren't you? Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 537	Posted - 2014.09.15 18:07:00 - [149] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: bump, and tomorrow we will post sidearm numbers! Finally, thanks. Can we sticky this thread? I don't think there was an official hotfix delta sidearm balancing thread (started by a blue tag), so let's just make this the official discussion archive. Desperate attempt to get BPOs
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 223	Posted - 2014.09.15 19:46:00 - [150] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: bump, and tomorrow we will post sidearm numbers! I hope you did some reasonable thinking on the flaylock cause that could easily become op. Lol I wish it was op again. The Blazing Intellect Machine

2k2y Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2014.09.16 01:57:00 - [151] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: bump, and tomorrow we will post sidearm numbers! I can't wait to see how you plan to tweak the breach submachine gun.
Cpt McReady Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 18	Posted - 2014.09.16 09:09:00 - [152] - Quote if you want to buff the flaylock change minmatar assault bonus to projectile AND explosive weapons thus it receives a 4th shot per reload like it did back when minmatar assault had bonus to sidearms.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7191	Posted - 2014.09.16 16:47:00 - [153] - Quote Hi everyone, I appreciate the thread and the civil discussions here, it was easy to read and absorb the theories and numbers. Here is the proposal https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=175388&find=unread "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cpt McReady Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 23	Posted - 2014.09.18 12:19:00 - [154] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, I appreciate the thread and the civil discussions here, it was easy to read and absorb the theories and numbers. Here is the proposal https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=175388&find=unread flaylock receives a huge nerf, are you serious? at proto, 2.5 times the PG requirements, 25% higher cpu requirements for a meager 6% dps buff. it is even worse at adv and std level. imho the low fitting requirements are the flaylocks best attribute and you just destroy that for a minimal dps boost
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1819	Posted - 2014.09.18 14:45:00 - [155] - Quote Cpt McReady wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, I appreciate the thread and the civil discussions here, it was easy to read and absorb the theories and numbers. Here is the proposal https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=175388&find=unread flaylock receives a huge nerf, are you serious? at proto, 2.5 times the PG requirements, 25% higher cpu requirements for a meager 6% dps buff. it is even worse at adv and std level. imho the low fitting requirements are the flaylocks best attribute and you just destroy that for a minimal dps boost You are ignoring the AoE buff, the extra round per mag, the RoF buff, the projectile speed buff and the new headshot bonus. The changes in their entirety may actually make this weapon OP. Now with more evil.


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