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Finn Colman Black Talon Company 41	Posted - 2014.09.06 15:30:00 - [121] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Jace Kaisar wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: 6)Nova Knives GÇô These little guys are OP right now. They 2 shot heavies and 1 shot everyone else. They may not be considered a problem because for some reason not every cloaked scout is using them, but itGÇÖs like getting hit by a remote. YouGÇÖre done. I guess the counter is to keep an eye out for scouts, stay together in a protective phalanx, and take the knifer down before he gets close enough, but donGÇÖt we have enough of the game being dictated by scout behavior already without adding another way scouts can instapop people? If you're bringing knives to a gunfight, and you are fast enough to get that close, you have earned your kill. No. You haven't earned anything. You did the opposite of earning something. You put on kincats, cloaked up, ran behind someone, briefly held down R1, and released it. And you didn't run with a squad and regularly check your six. Scout used stealth and eWAR to get the drop on you. Working as intended. We punish the solo players who don't pay attention. Or those who are simply preoccupied with other things It's so quiet you can quickly dispatch people who are near their squad mates and on comms, then duck away and cloak before anyone knows where to look. OP. Take this into account... I use modules that are a much better use of my CPU/PG than a stupid cloak that hardly helps me at all. This is likely because I'm not using the cloak in the best way (e.g., using it in a dark place where the shimmer is most noticeable). Either way, I get more performance out of my modules than I would be able to fit with a cloak. I rely on the stealth tactics I learned from Tom Clancy, and that includes purposeful detection, and simply hiding in opportune areas of the environment. I use a STD Combat rifle (mainly for grabbing the enemies attention) and ADV knives (PRO are kind of a waste of ISK unless you're hunting heavies). The cloak is just a burden in my case. I will note that the cloak is meant to be somewhat loud upon activation and deactivation, and from what I'm hearing this is not the case. Now, my main point here is to stop making assumptions, not all of us use cloaks.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1790	Posted - 2014.09.06 16:48:00 - [122] - Quote Unless one of the Dev's is directing conversations about nova knives here I really do think it should be saved for another thread. The knives are such a different animal that balancing them against the pistols and SMGs doesn't really make sense. Lets refocus. Fun > Realism
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 144	Posted - 2014.09.06 17:01:00 - [123] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Unless one of the Dev's is directing conversations about nova knives here I really do think it should be saved for another thread. The knives are such a different animal that balancing them against the pistols and SMGs doesn't really make sense. Lets refocus. It's still a side arm, and he's right. It should be included or at least brought to CCP's attention. Shotguns and Nova knives i think are within the same boat. Perhaps once CCP puts a bit more tweaks to hard limit the amount of damage a shotgun does up close per shot, and instead giving nova knife users their current mechanics when knifing someone in the back this might finish balancing everything out well. As it stands not many have caught on to nova knives and how incredibly strong they are. Once they do we will see helpful and destructive comments about what needs to be done to it. *Always Grey Skies*
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 202	Posted - 2014.09.06 17:33:00 - [124] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Jace Kaisar wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: zzZaXxx wrote: 6)Nova Knives GÇô These little guys are OP right now. They 2 shot heavies and 1 shot everyone else. They may not be considered a problem because for some reason not every cloaked scout is using them, but itGÇÖs like getting hit by a remote. YouGÇÖre done. I guess the counter is to keep an eye out for scouts, stay together in a protective phalanx, and take the knifer down before he gets close enough, but donGÇÖt we have enough of the game being dictated by scout behavior already without adding another way scouts can instapop people? If you're bringing knives to a gunfight, and you are fast enough to get that close, you have earned your kill. No. You haven't earned anything. You did the opposite of earning something. You put on kincats, cloaked up, ran behind someone, briefly held down R1, and released it. And you didn't run with a squad and regularly check your six. Scout used stealth and eWAR to get the drop on you. Working as intended. We punish the solo players who don't pay attention. Or those who are simply preoccupied with other things It's so quiet you can quickly dispatch people who are near their squad mates and on comms, then duck away and cloak before anyone knows where to look. OP. Nova Knives are quiet for you? I find them to be loud as f*ck. If you attempt to knife me and miss, I'm going to turn 180 on your ass. What level of volume do you people play on? I like to be able to hear things to point of one's footsteps, which are quiet on anything but the dirt/gravel/sand across the field. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
zzZaXxx D3ATH CARD 492	Posted - 2014.09.06 18:14:00 - [125] - Quote Quiet for my surrounding teammates. It doesn't alert everyone in the immediate area like the shotgun. The sound is not as loud or noticeable.
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 891	Posted - 2014.09.06 22:25:00 - [126] - Quote So, in order to bring more awareness to the underlying issues with the ion pistol, and at the behest of Rattati, I'll be reposting my main thoughts from this thread to here. Sorry if it seems spammy, but I really don't want this gun buffed improperly. After reading the thread on sidearm changes, as an avid ion pistol user I was disappointed to find very little feedback given on how to fix the ion pistol other than, "just change the damage to x per shot and the dispersion to y%." But to be honest, those suggestions really don't fix the problems that are at the root of the weapons woes. First let me give you a quick synopsis on how the ion pistol functions for those of you that either have not tried it, or have only tried it once and then never touched it again, (for good reason.) The ion pistol has 12 shots, each dealing 50, 52.5, and 55 damage per meta level. The weapon is hybrid-plasma, giving it a +10%, -10% for damage against shields and armor respectively. The ranges for each are 20/35, 22/39, and 24/42 for the optimal and effective ranges per meta level. And the range is where we encounter our first issue. The weapon does -not- apply damage past it's effective range. This has been a problem since the weapon was released along side the bolt pistol. However while the bolt pistol was eventually fixed, the ion pistol is still splashing about like a flounder forcing its users to constantly be within nearly shotgun range just to apply damage. To apply this damage, you can either fire one fully charged shot for a 7x multiplier which comes out to 385 on shields or 315 to armor. Or you can rapidly fire single shots with tiny charge multipliers gained from just the quick tap until the weapon overheats. Overheating at 11 shots with operation one is not uncommon. A full charge immediately overheats as well as a 1/2 charge. The overheat lasts about 3 seconds and is generally a death sentence. The maximum ROF for the weapon is 375. However again, there are problems here with the gun firing false positives and seizing between shots. I've noticed on -many- occasions where the gun will fire 3-4 shots while I try to finish off an opponent, but only 2 will have actually left the clip. This gives the player a false perspective on how well the gun is performing. "Oh, he has a sliver of health, and I just shot 4 rounds with 3 of them hitting." However in reality, only 2 rounds were actually fired, and only one round actually hit the enemy for damage. I can not tell you how many times this has happened to me..... For me it's come to the point of just mashing R1 until the gun overheats regardless of what the gun is showing. The dispersion is one of the worst in the game at 46.65. The only things with worse dispersion are the HMG and the shotgun. And we know how fickle the shotgun can be, and the HMG throws out bullets 6-16 times faster and allows over 200 shots before it overheats Next comes the operation skill, and this I believe to be the biggest propagator of problems for the ion pistol. Each level of the operation skill quickens the charge up rate per shot of the ion pistol by 5% for a 25% faster charge up at level 5. Let me show a couple numbers here to represent how this functions. Let's say that the overheat happens at 100. A full charge costs 100 heat causing an instant overheat. Each tap costs let's say 9.5 heat at the bare minimum with the fastest shot you can fire causing an overheat after the 11th shot, a common occurrence. Now let's apply the level 5 'bonus'. Regardless of weather you want it to or not, with level 5 operation, each shot now charges the weapon 25% more than it did before, even with the same length of a short tap. This means that the original 9.5 heat per shot is now 11.875 heat per shot. So now you are guaranteed an overheat on the 9th shot with short trigger pulls, and if you hold down one of the shots for a fraction of a second too long it becomes very easy to overheat it even on the 8th shot. Getting level 5 operation effectively removes a large portion of the damage you would be able to apply before an overheat otherwise. Basically, the more you invest in the weapon, the less you get out of it. It is almost exactly the opposite of the Scrambler Pistol really. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 891	Posted - 2014.09.06 22:25:00 - [127] - Quote So how do we fix it? The gun needs a few things. First and foremost, fix the stupid effective range bug. That's something that should have been fixed with the bolt pistol and will act as a massive buff in and of itself. Next fix the false positives. If the gun isn't actually firing a round, I don't want to see a round. If you believe a damage buff is in order, it should only be a fairly minor one. 55, 57.5, 60 tops. Although that's only a 5 damage per shot increase, it adds a potential 60 to the mag, and just under 39 extra damage for a full charge shot. Next decrease the dispersion slightly and I do mean ever so slightly, no more than 10%. After you put this on a fully pimped Gallente assault and throw a couple levels into the dispersion, it's actually quite manageable. However if you guys at CCP decide to change the Gallente assault bonus to not include a dispersion bonus, then whatever you remove should absolutely be added to the base level of the Ion Pistol. Having that bonus is paramount to making the Ion Pistol a viable weapon. Finally you -need- to change the operation skill of the Ion Pistol. In my opinion it would be best to change it from the current -5% charge up time, to a new -5% heat build up per charge. Let me explain how this would function. Let's keep the overheat at 100 and the full charge at 100. But let's change the quick fire heat build up to a base 10. This means that at level 0 operation, (should CCP implement a militia variant) the gun will overheat either after a full charge, or 10 shots. Let's add operation 1. Now a full charge only does 95 heat and allows for a follow up quick shot which now only cost 9.5 and allows for 11 shots to be fired otherwise. Operation 2: Full charge is 90, allows for 2 follow up shots at 9 per piece and you can finally fire off the full 12 without overheating. Operation 3: Full charge is 85, still only allows for 2 follow up shots at 8.5 per shot. Operation 4: Full charge is 80, allows for 3 follow up shots before overheating at 8 per shot. Operation 5: Full charge is 75, allows for 4 follow up shots at 7.5 per shot. So now with the new bonus you actually -get- a decent return on your investment by being punished less from the overheat and actually incentivising the use of the charge thus getting rid of the current thought process of, "Oh god no I accidentally charged it, I'm screwed..." TL:DR Fix effective range bug Minor dispersion reduction Fix false positives when rapid firing the weapon Possible, but not 100% necessary small damage buff Change operation skill from charge time reduction to heat sink What do ya'all think of this, thoughts and other ideas are absolutely welcome, I'd love to hear from other ion pistol users and CCP folks on the matter. :) O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 891	Posted - 2014.09.06 22:26:00 - [128] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I really like the idea of the charged shot functioning like a mini-shotgun. That may not be possible in a hotfix. This isn't a weapon I ever use, but it seems like a really excellent discussion by people who have a solid grasp of the mechanics. Let me put the 'ion pistol shotgun' idea in a different light. If it were function like the afore mentioned, realistically, it would function like the plasma cannon. It has a charge up time, it deals massive damage, and it only has one shot in the clip before reloading. But now imagine if the plasma cannon had a longer charge up, dealt less damage at full potential, had less range, did less damage at range, had a longer reload, had less ammo in reserve, and almost never dealt full damage even within its optimal and directly on target. That does not sound like a fun weapon to use. And indeed I feel we already have a weapon that functions even closer to the ion pistol shotgun theory: the breach shotgun. A super powerful alpha shotgun with very few bullets in the chamber and a long reload. But now imagine using the breach shotgun where it deals less damage, has a 2 second charge up time, has less ammo in reserve, has a mandatory reload after every shot, and its reload takes twice as long. Think about how often you see the breach shotgun being used on the field and realize that's what you're saying you want the charge functionality to be as effective as. The only people who use the breach shotgun are newbros that are still experimenting, and people who are engaging in shenanigans or are trying to make a montage to look good. I'm looking to make the gun viable, not more gimmicky. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 891	Posted - 2014.09.06 22:28:00 - [129] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Daddrobit wrote: Mercy Snip :) That's a good point. So why not keep the damage multiplier for shotgun blasts too? I think there's a lot of room to play around with the stats to make it useful without surpassing the actual shotgun or outperforming other sidearms. I just like the concept of having a wide array of fun/interesting weapons that all feel very different. A slightly different version of the scrambler pistol is kinda underwhelming. Maybe this is to gimmicky to be practical though. I haven't spent nearly as much time analyzing this as you have, so I admit I could be totally wrong here. Before my thoughts on how I'd potentially get the ion pistol shotty to work, here's a thought on weapon variations. Personally, I feel like the IP does function in a manner that is fun/interesting/unique in comparison to the other sidearms. It's not that it's a slightly different scrambler pistol, it's that it's a miniature ScR, much in the same way that the ScP is a miniature Tac AR. Like how the flaylock is a miniature mass driver and the smg is a miniature ACR. To call the IP a slightly different ScP is like to call the ScR a slightly different Tac AR. I understand that you like and want more weapon variety, but to take away one variant in place of another just because it doesn't currently function at an optimal level is a step back in my opinion. We have the unique weapon system in place, we just need to figure out how to make it work. But that's not to say I don't completely dislike the theory of having a pocket shotty sidearm. I do think it's an interesting idea, I just don't want to have my sidearm stripped of me to make that one a possibility. So what if you petitioned to make an ion pistol -Variant- that functions as a pocket shotty? So far we only have one type of IP while the smg and ScP both get several of their own, I'd certainly like to see more variety in the gallente section. As to how you would make that work, I came up with a possible solution. At first I thought that it might be feasible to give all the bullets fired a damage modifier equal to the % required to charge it that far, but I quickly realized this would make it sickeningly OP because of the scaling. To explain, one bullet is 1/12 a charge, so give that single bullet 8.3% of a 7x charge multiplier, which translates to 58%. Then two bullets would each have a multiplier of 116% and so on. At 6 bullets, each would be fired with a 350% damage modifier totaling 1050 damage. 12 bullets each with a full 700% damage would become a tank buster at 4200 damage. That's the basic variant. No thank you. Back to the drawing boards. So then I thought, well, just give each bullet a damage modifier of just how much it requires to charge for that single bullet. Basically, just give each bullet a 58% damage modifier. A single shot does 79, two does 158, three does 237. No odd scaling here but still capable of ludicrous power. 12 shots would still have the potential to do 948 damage, throw on a damage mod and you're putting out over a 1000 damage. You're one shotting most suits in the game at the basic level here and you're able to do it at 20 meters. It still seems a bit much. So then I realized, why do we have to damage mod it at all now that we're talking a different variant? Pop the base damage per shot to 55 and then let the charge simply determine how many shots are fired, no tinkering with damage modification at all. 12 shots would net you 660 damage so you're still one shotting most militia frames, but well tanked basic suits and above would still survive. Again, you're losing damage versus the standard IP as each one of those pellets could have been damage modded, but the full charge of the shotty IP does more damage that that of the standard, so maybe that would sway people in that direction. And I have to stress this again, should CCP be listening here, this should really only be considered as a variant, I want my basic version fixed, not replaced. And that's the end of my spam, thanks for putting up with me. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 209	Posted - 2014.09.07 08:19:00 - [130] - Quote Hey rattati I know you're monitoring this thread so can you tell us how you're feeling about the ideas presented so far? Planetside 2 Eventually Eh

Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 144	Posted - 2014.09.07 15:32:00 - [131] - Quote Great posts Daddrobit! On one of my accounts I have all side arms, but my Ion Pistol isn't all the way compared to yours. It is good to see others wanting side arms to be viable rather than something for decoration. Thus far since I saw the google document above they are making the side arms with the exception of the Magsec and SMG non viable. I have stated if they want pistols to be viable the scrambler pistol's current RoF should be avoided by Ion Pistols, and Scrambler Pistols. I feel the range on the Ion Pistol needs to be decent enough for the charge shot to be viable, but just under the range of the scrambler pistol. I think the mechanics for the Bolt Pistol is backwards and should have the second slowest RoF, just above the Flaylock Pistol. The Bolt Pistol just seems to need to give the much needed contrast to Caldari weapons. The Rail Rifle, and Magsec all do fast damage from far distances. The Bolt Pistol is the missing change up. A close range side arm that concentrates on heavy damage. *Always Grey Skies*
Jammeh McJam New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 121	Posted - 2014.09.07 16:31:00 - [132] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Magsec needs to have a better scope, and needs less kick when aimed down sight. DPS feels fine. the SMG needs more kick as there is practically none. 2x Scope would be perfect, possibly like the RDS for the scrambler. I told ya the DPS was fine The magsec needs the bolt pistols scope "We may be small and disorganized, but we're still gonna kill you" - Intergalactic Super Friends MAG ~ Raven vet
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1801	Posted - 2014.09.07 16:52:00 - [133] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: Fix effective range bug Minor dispersion reduction Fix false positives when rapid firing the weapon Possible, but not 100% necessary small damage buff Change operation skill from charge time reduction to heat sink So what I'm hearing from you is that you would generally like to see some weapon bugs fixed which would help all the weapons but greatly help the Ion Pistol but then you'd also like to see the IP's heat build up change to a per-shot heat build up (kind of like the ScR's heat build up over time fired) as well as changing the operations skill to match this new mechanic. I could get behind those changes for sure since the bug fixing certainly should happen if needed, though I must admit it is not something I have ever actually noticed when using the IP. My only concern is that since the IP has one of the lowest DPS in the game with out a large RoF or damage buff it really isn't going to become any more usable. While DPS isn't king it really does dictate a lot about how a weapon is used, especially in a weapon with range as short as the IP. Good stuff though. I'd love to see your take on the other pistols as well. Fun > Realism
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 495	Posted - 2014.09.07 17:42:00 - [134] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: Regardless of weather you want it to or not, with level 5 operation, each shot now charges the weapon 25% more than it did before, even with the same length of a short tap. This means that the original 9.5 heat per shot is now 11.875 heat per shot. So now you are guaranteed an overheat on the 9th shot with short trigger pulls, and if you hold down one of the shots for a fraction of a second too long it becomes very easy to overheat it even on the 8th shot. Getting level 5 operation effectively removes a large portion of the damage you would be able to apply before an overheat otherwise. Basically, the more you invest in the weapon, the less you get out of it. It is almost exactly the opposite of the Scrambler Pistol really. Are you sure? IIRC heat build up in Dust is over time, so if charges are taking less time you should be able to mini-charge more in the same amount of time, thus getting more mini-charge shots per heat.
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 897	Posted - 2014.09.07 22:30:00 - [135] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Daddrobit wrote: Fix effective range bug Minor dispersion reduction Fix false positives when rapid firing the weapon Possible, but not 100% necessary small damage buff Change operation skill from charge time reduction to heat sink So what I'm hearing from you is that you would generally like to see some weapon bugs fixed which would help all the weapons but greatly help the Ion Pistol but then you'd also like to see the IP's heat build up change to a per-shot heat build up (kind of like the ScR's heat build up over time fired) as well as changing the operations skill to match this new mechanic. I could get behind those changes for sure since the bug fixing certainly should happen if needed, though I must admit it is not something I have ever actually noticed when using the IP. My only concern is that since the IP has one of the lowest DPS in the game with out a large RoF or damage buff it really isn't going to become any more usable. While DPS isn't king it really does dictate a lot about how a weapon is used, especially in a weapon with range as short as the IP. Good stuff though. I'd love to see your take on the other pistols as well. It's not that I want it to have a per shot heat value, it's just in that testing by these guys, it was discovered that even a slight tap on average charges about 6-7% and provides about a 45% minicharge. I don't want this to go away, I just want the operation to actually work in tandem with this function by lessening the heat punishment and not hindering it. And as for weather or not it will make the IP just as useable as the other weapons, maybe/probably not, but every little buff helps, and seeing as how I'm now personally able to use it nearly as well as I use the smg, I'll certainly be a happy camper. :) zzZaXxx wrote: Daddrobit wrote: Regardless of weather you want it to or not, with level 5 operation, each shot now charges the weapon 25% more than it did before, even with the same length of a short tap. This means that the original 9.5 heat per shot is now 11.875 heat per shot. So now you are guaranteed an overheat on the 9th shot with short trigger pulls, and if you hold down one of the shots for a fraction of a second too long it becomes very easy to overheat it even on the 8th shot. Getting level 5 operation effectively removes a large portion of the damage you would be able to apply before an overheat otherwise. Basically, the more you invest in the weapon, the less you get out of it. It is almost exactly the opposite of the Scrambler Pistol really. Are you sure? IIRC heat build up in Dust is over time, so if charges are taking less time you should be able to mini-charge more in the same amount of time, thus getting more mini-charge shots per heat. EDIT: Okay so you're saying the heat build up is associated with charge amount, not time, but how do you know the 11.87 heat mini-charge shots aren't doing more damage. If so you're not losing damage, just getting slightly more damage per mini-charge shot and less shots before overheat. Oh and Daddrobit, what do you think of my Ion Pistol suggestion? Although the bullets will be doing more damage per shot until the overheat, you will still be taking a net loss. 12551.45=957 damage 9551.81=895 damage or 796 damage if you overheat it on the 8th shot. Even with the greater per shot value, you're losing damage. As for your suggestions, I think my afore mentioned thoughts pretty much satisfied those constraints. "So then I realized, why do we have to damage mod it at all now that we're talking a different variant? Pop the base damage per shot to 55 and then let the charge simply determine how many shots are fired, no tinkering with damage modification at all. 12 shots would net you 660 damage so you're still one shotting most militia frames, but well tanked basic suits and above would still survive. Again, you're losing damage versus the standard IP as each one of those pellets could have been damage modded, but the full charge of the shotty IP does more damage that that of the standard, so maybe that would sway people in that direction." 660 damage is more damage than a standard IPs charge shot + 3 standard shots on top of it, so it's nothing to be sneezed at. However, without the minicharges whenever you rapid fire it like a ScP you'll be dealing less damage than the standard issue. And if you knew that your target didn't need a full clip to finish off, you could always just partial charge it and let out a half or a quarter to insta-blap them. Although it would have less damage in the clip, instantly dealing 660 damage at 20 meters seems like it would be able to potentially sway people in favor of using it over the standard IP no? O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Vesta Opalus Kang Lo Holding 24	Posted - 2014.09.08 18:21:00 - [136] - Quote Howdy, Not sure if you are still monitoring this thread (make it a sticky maybe?), but here goes: I only have three things to talk about 1. Bolt pistol change: You proposed a raise to the fire rate of this guy, and I think maybe raising the damage would be more fun (leave fire rate same, but increase damage per shot to increase its dps). Raising the fire rate kind of changes the character of the weapon. Its kind of a slow considerate shooting, and I like how it feels compared to other sidearms. I think raising its fire rate would make it a different weapon altogether, which would be sad. 2. Bolt pistol reserve ammunition. I dont see any mention in this sheet with the reserve ammunition of each weapon. But I think its a pretty big issue. Right now I feel like when I use the SMG I have ammo enough to kill 10+ people, whereas when I use my bolt pistol (which I have to proto, where my SMG is only ADV), I feel like Im guzzling nanohives. I think maybe evening out the damage you have in your reserve ammo would be a nice thing to do, so each sidearm doesnt feel like its dramatically more needy than others. 3. Flaylock STD/ADV tiers: I think the explosive radius is pretty poor on these, I think maybe evening them all out to current proto flaylock radius would be nice. I rarely see non-proto variants of flaylock, and theres a reason for that, the proto radius is just right, but at STD/ADV level, they are too small.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1808	Posted - 2014.09.09 07:20:00 - [137] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Howdy, Not sure if you are still monitoring this thread (make it a sticky maybe?), but here goes: I only have three things to talk about 1. Bolt pistol change: You proposed a raise to the fire rate of this guy, and I think maybe raising the damage would be more fun (leave fire rate same, but increase damage per shot to increase its dps). Raising the fire rate kind of changes the character of the weapon. Its kind of a slow considerate shooting, and I like how it feels compared to other sidearms. I think raising its fire rate would make it a different weapon altogether, which would be sad. 2. Bolt pistol reserve ammunition. I dont see any mention in this sheet with the reserve ammunition of each weapon. But I think its a pretty big issue. Right now I feel like when I use the SMG I have ammo enough to kill 10+ people, whereas when I use my bolt pistol (which I have to proto, where my SMG is only ADV), I feel like Im guzzling nanohives. I think maybe evening out the damage you have in your reserve ammo would be a nice thing to do, so each sidearm doesnt feel like its dramatically more needy than others. 3. Flaylock STD/ADV tiers: I think the explosive radius is pretty poor on these, I think maybe evening them all out to current proto flaylock radius would be nice. I rarely see non-proto variants of flaylock, and theres a reason for that, the proto radius is just right, but at STD/ADV level, they are too small. 1. Interesting point. What do the rest of you think? Should I lower the RoF of the bolt pistol back to normal and buff its per shot damage to keep its DPS the same as it is in my proposed stats? I do like that it keeps the weapons current character a bit more. 2. I hadn't thought about this but you are totally right. I will look into total damage potential of all ammo as an important stat too and add it to the spreadsheet. I feel like all weapons should have similar total damage potential. 3. I am pretty oppsed to a radius buff for the Flaylock since this is what made it so OP back in the day. I would be just fine with changing the operation skill and giving all Flaylocks the 1.5m blast radius of the proto weapon though as that is well within the acceptable range from what I can tell. Any thoughts on what a better alternative to the current operations skill would be? More range perhaps? Now with more evil.
Vesta Opalus Kang Lo Holding 26	Posted - 2014.09.09 16:27:00 - [138] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: 3. I am pretty oppsed to a radius buff for the Flaylock since this is what made it so OP back in the day. I would be just fine with changing the operation skill and giving all Flaylocks the 1.5m blast radius of the proto weapon though as that is well within the acceptable range from what I can tell. Any thoughts on what a better alternative to the current operations skill would be? More range perhaps? Yeah I remember those days too, but lets be 100% super real talk: even then most people used the Core Flaylock. The basic mechanics of a weapon should be similar across all tiers, and this isnt like the mass driver where the radius of explosion is pretty damn large even at STD level. The size of the explosion of STD/ADV tier flaylocks is so small that they become pretty much unusable, especially for players using controllers who have a harder time with fine aiming. But hey I have it protod out, so whatever happens, I got mine jack ;d
PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 203	Posted - 2014.09.09 21:06:00 - [139] - Quote Flaylock should be basic/advanced/proto 2/2.50/3m spalsh radius 150/175/200 splash damage 200/250/300 direct damage. This way you can hit your splash shots and get 600 total damage per clip at proto. With the extended splash radius you can hit your shots more, and if you get a direct hit you get 100hp more than splash. The 600hp per clip at proto would disable an armour tanking prototypes shield and eat into the armour a bit. Against proto shield it might disable or almost disable its shields. And as a sidearm, being pulled out as a finisher, would be great at its role, and, i believe balanced with other sidearms like the SMG. Lets say I'm running my Gal assault with the duvolle and core flaylock and i run into a min, assault with the boundless cr and Ishukone assault SMG. We exchange bullets with our primaries and get each other down to 400hp. I think if we then pulled out our sidearms it would be a very balanced fight. After 1 round from me he is down to 200hp and in that time i am down close to 200hp. in the time it takes for me to fire again I'm down 200hp as well. Then we would finish each other off. Please consider this. 44/4 in a BPO Scout (1.8) 40/5 in a Proto Assault (1.7) Open Beta Vet 27mil sp R.I.P Dust 514
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK Intrepidus XI EoN. 211	Posted - 2014.09.09 21:12:00 - [140] - Quote PLAYSTTION wrote: Flaylock should be basic/advanced/proto 2/2.50/3m spalsh radius 150/175/200 splash damage 200/250/300 direct damage. This way you can hit your splash shots and get 600 total damage per clip at proto. With the extended splash radius you can hit your shots more, and if you get a direct hit you get 100hp more than splash. The 600hp per clip at proto would disable an armour tanking prototypes shield and eat into the armour a bit. Against proto shield it might disable or almost disable its shields. And as a sidearm, being pulled out as a finisher, would be great at its role, and, i believe balanced with other sidearms like the SMG. Lets say I'm running my Gal assault with the duvolle and core flaylock and i run into a min, assault with the boundless cr and Ishukone assault SMG. We exchange bullets with our primaries and get each other down to 400hp. I think if we then pulled out our sidearms it would be a very balanced fight. After 1 round from me he is down to 200hp and in that time i am down close to 200hp. in the time it takes for me to fire again I'm down 200hp as well. Then we would finish each other off. Please consider this. So basically you're saying to revert the flaylock back to its pre-nerf status. Listen to the previous posts blast radius increase isn't the answer unless you're planning on nerfing the splash damage in exchange for the lack of skill it requires. Planetside 2 Eventually Eh

Cpt McReady Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2014.09.10 08:10:00 - [141] - Quote most comments here revolve around "buff my favorite looking sidearm, nerf the rest" and regarding SMG, it as hard to fit as a combat rifle, sometimes even harder as it requires more PG and tanking modules are PG heavy but for the fitting requirements it does not have the range or dps of a combat rifle. all other sidearms have lower CPU/PG/both requirements. if you want the other sidearms to get better then expect higher fitting requirements too.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 121	Posted - 2014.09.10 15:58:00 - [142] - Quote alot of people seem to be discussing cloaks in this thread, which is wrong altogether. However i will just say this: cloaks are relatively easy to spot with a good eye and need no tweaks from my perspective as a scout killer, any more and they would not be stealthy, but limiting modules for self inflicted bare bones survival. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 260	Posted - 2014.09.10 19:30:00 - [143] - Quote Cpt McReady wrote: most comments here revolve around "buff my favorite looking sidearm, nerf the rest" and regarding SMG, it as hard to fit as a combat rifle, sometimes even harder as it requires more PG and tanking modules are PG heavy but for the fitting requirements it does not have the range or dps of a combat rifle. all other sidearms have lower CPU/PG/both requirements. if you want the other sidearms to get better then expect higher fitting requirements too. Lol. That's a bad thing? The CR is rediculously easy to fit. It isn't that the SMG is harder to fit comparatively, the CR is super easy to fit comparatively.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1813	Posted - 2014.09.11 21:08:00 - [144] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Cpt McReady wrote: most comments here revolve around "buff my favorite looking sidearm, nerf the rest" and regarding SMG, it as hard to fit as a combat rifle, sometimes even harder as it requires more PG and tanking modules are PG heavy but for the fitting requirements it does not have the range or dps of a combat rifle. all other sidearms have lower CPU/PG/both requirements. if you want the other sidearms to get better then expect higher fitting requirements too. Lol. That's a bad thing? The CR is rediculously easy to fit. It isn't that the SMG is harder to fit comparatively, the CR is super easy to fit comparatively. This is my opinion as well. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1813	Posted - 2014.09.11 22:02:00 - [145] - Quote In my OP I stated that I was only showing proto weapons on the spreadsheet but that each tier should only be 5% less damaging that the tier above it. So: Advanced has 5% less DPS than Proto Basic has 5% less DPS than Advanced I'd like to add to my initial idea by saying that I think accuracy should also change 5% by tier. So: Advanced would have 5% poorer accuracy than Proto and Standard would have poorer accuracy than Advanced. As with rifles, side-arm range should be equalized among tiers with all weapons adopting the range profile of their proto varients. No, one commented on these ideas in my first post so lets give it a go again. Are these good ideas? Do they suck? What would you change to make all the weapons perfectly balanced? Now with more evil.
Cpt McReady Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2014.09.12 15:09:00 - [146] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Cpt McReady wrote: most comments here revolve around "buff my favorite looking sidearm, nerf the rest" and regarding SMG, it as hard to fit as a combat rifle, sometimes even harder as it requires more PG and tanking modules are PG heavy but for the fitting requirements it does not have the range or dps of a combat rifle. all other sidearms have lower CPU/PG/both requirements. if you want the other sidearms to get better then expect higher fitting requirements too. Lol. That's a bad thing? The CR is rediculously easy to fit. It isn't that the SMG is harder to fit comparatively, the CR is super easy to fit comparatively. easy to fit... on a non minmatar suits. and that is an issue because no drawbacks exist in fitting weaponry of other nations but this is not related to sidearm balance.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7109	Posted - 2014.09.15 16:32:00 - [147] - Quote bump, and tomorrow we will post sidearm numbers! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3177	Posted - 2014.09.15 16:44:00 - [148] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: bump, and tomorrow we will post sidearm numbers! You're going to make me spec into Ion Pistols, aren't you? Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 537	Posted - 2014.09.15 18:07:00 - [149] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: bump, and tomorrow we will post sidearm numbers! Finally, thanks. Can we sticky this thread? I don't think there was an official hotfix delta sidearm balancing thread (started by a blue tag), so let's just make this the official discussion archive. Desperate attempt to get BPOs
BlazeXYZ xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 223	Posted - 2014.09.15 19:46:00 - [150] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: bump, and tomorrow we will post sidearm numbers! I hope you did some reasonable thinking on the flaylock cause that could easily become op. Lol I wish it was op again. The Blazing Intellect Machine



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