DUST Search - Side Arm Balance: Merging the Threads

Gabriella Grey wrote:

I'm not a fan of much of the proposed changes on this. Much of this is taking what is current and flipping it on it's head, which isn't really fixing most if any of the issues.

The Scrambler pistols current rate of fire in the assault variant should be where any semi-automatic weapon should not be. The scrambler pistol should be placed back to where it was. In that relation the scrambler pistol has better relation to the SMG and Magsec. I have no issues with the magsec, but I do with the SMG, and that is due to mainly it has no kick, gun rise, and dispersion etc. The magsec is more balanced with this compared to the SMG, but the Magsec sometimes feels as if it has too much of this seriously hindering its accuracy.

Giving the Ion pistol too much DPS i feel is an issue even though it has a charge option, simply because of the fact of its +10 -10 percentile. I would see its ROF below the KLO scrambler pistol making it focus more on damage without overshadowing the scrambler pistol variant in the assault, burst, and breach categories.

Bolt pistol I would generalize round about just below the breach scrambler pistol variant making it focus on continuous heavy damage where the bolt pistol can really shine.

Lastly the flaylock doesn't need a high ROF in the slightest. This is a handheld mass driver. It should have a slowest ROF compared to the other weapons, and concentrate on damage. With that said then we can look at bringing its splash damage out a bit more, while keeping its clip size the same or shortening it further. Bringing back the flaylock pistol to where it originally was is just going to disrupt light and side arms weapons making the flaylock the answer to most scenarios again. The reason the flaylock was bad because it had too much of a splash radius, high rate of fire, and did a great deal of damage. If it is tweaked along the lines of making this weapon into an area denial weapon as its sister weapon the mass driver we should see more use from the flaylock while the other weapons and side arms are not overshadowed by it.

I think many do not see the hand gun as weapons that should be able to effectively kill infantry as a stand alone weapon, but with limitations, such as range, splash damage, and small magazine sizes. Having these things will limit them to still being side arms but effective none the less, but these side arms limited ammo will make them useful for 1 on 1 scenarios, but make them struggle when faced in a less controlled fire fight scenario.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1759	Posted - 2014.08.27 04:28:00 - [1] - Quote After numerous threads and many different ideas being thrown about we still don't have a single unified idea of how to balance side-arms. As many have pointed out the Ion Pistol and the Flaylock are both hugely underpowered. The other pistols while better are still poor options compared to the SMG and the Magsec SMG. I previously proposed balancing the pistols around an inverse range to damage relationship with the scrambler pistol as the mid point. BL4CKST4R proposed buffing many of the weapons stats as well as changing the heat mechanic of the ion pistol. Rattati further proposed that since the SMG is the most used weapon all the side arms should actually be balanced with it in mind. Many others also commented that because of its short range the ion pistol needed a much higher DPS than the bolt pistol. Taking these ideas into consideration I have revamped my original spreadsheet. The new sheet incorporates all of the ideas above and assumes the overheat mechanics proposed by BL4CKST4R. Please note that I have have only shown the stats for prototype weapons. These weapons should only be a 10% improvement over basic weapons with advanced ones lying right in the middle (5% weaker than proto 5% more powerful than basic) Ranges should be equalized across weapon tiers (like what was done with pistols). Weapon varients have not been included at this time but should be part of the balancing. I would of crouse like feed back about what to do with them. I am leaning towards the breach flaylock being an AV varient, and a decrease in pershot damage for the assault SMG (to make up for its higher rate of fire). Take a second, look the spread sheet over and make comments. Lets try to build something productive here. Sidearm Balance Spreadsheet Please note that I have included BL4CKST4R's spreadsheet as well so we can easily compare the two. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1761	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:40:00 - [2] - Quote THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: So what's the deal with the mag nerf of the magsec? I mean its as close as the caldari get to a CQC sidearm i'm not seeing your thought process behind it. I mean to spite its dps it bearly benefits from aim assist, the majority of the rounds tend to miss anything that isnt strafing. Well I barely touched it to be honest but the rational was that it had a massive damage per mag, much longer range than the SMG and higher DPS. Overall it just looked too powerful given that its only downside is a short spool up. Honestly though I haven't played with it since it came out so I'll give it a ride again and see how it compares to the SMG. pothecary Za'ki wrote: SMG is balanced.. just "balance" the other sidearms against the smg insted of nerfing smg into ** mode just to be level with the other sidearms cause of RPers who want their OP SCP back That is pretty much what I was trying to do but since the SMG had such a massive damage per mag compared to the pistols it really made more sense to reduce its max ammo capacity. Honestly I find that the SMG is just too good for a sidearm, its actually a better performer than the AR right now so toning down its damage per mag without really doing anything about its DPS was my solution. If you have some number that make more sense to you I'd love to see them an perhaps integrate them into the sheet. Gabriel Ceja wrote:** Those are some interesting numbers but for the Flay lock I believe a way to improve it as a sidearm would be to buff direct damage to about 300 with a splash damage of 240 and a blast radius of 3m. now this may seem OP but the final part is to make all this go along with a one round clip and a 2.5 second reload time. With this you will be able to have less trouble engaging an enemy with the Flay lock but won't be able to go around taking out big groups single handed with it like before even with a commandos reload bonus and the flay locks reload skill at five it won't likely be possible with a constant reloading. That is an interesting idea for sure but it would give the flaylock a very low DPS and with only one shot per mag it would really be an extremely high skill weapon. I worry that it would still be all but totally unused. What do others think about this idea? I can definitely change my numbers more in this direction if this is what the community is interested in. Almost all of this feed back is nice and productive. I haven't made any changes yet since we haven't gotten enough comments to really get some community consensus but I will make changes if there is a ton of support for how to alter the weapons for the good of all. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1766	Posted - 2014.08.29 16:00:00 - [3] - Quote So here is what I am hearing from everyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly. 1) The two SMG's have higher PG & CPU reqs (making them harder to fit than pistols which offsets their larger damage potential) so leave them alone. Also they are the only side arms that currently work as intended and so should stay as is. I changed the stats back but I must say it really bugs me that the Magsec does more DPS than the SMG even though it has longer range. What if it got a range buff and the RoF reduction to 650 (without changing the mag size) that would make my range/damage balance sense happy without just a flat out nerf for those who love the weapon. 2) Mobius' proposed changes to the flaylock would make it an OP spam machine. Use BL4CKST4R's numbers instead or at least some compromise between the two. Okay I've tried to strive for a nice middle ground here. I buffed the flaylock's damage to 205 while returning its RoF to 125 (current stats) and decreasing the mag size to 4. This would give it the lowest damage per mag of the pistols but it does have a area of affect unlike the others so this may balance it out a bit (its a hard thing to take into account). 4) The scrambler pistol might become too deadly thanks to its headshot bonus and proposed larger mag size. What do the rest of you think of this. Should the Scp have a slightly lower mag capacity to make up for the fact that it has the 450% headshot multiplier? Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1766	Posted - 2014.08.29 17:04:00 - [4] - Quote Ko7 Ripcord wrote: would be reasonable to make the flaylock a burst fire sidearm, not explosives? I know it would destroy the sunniness of this weapon, but it would be easier to balance. My issue with that is that it would totally change the flavor of the weapon. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1766	Posted - 2014.08.29 22:34:00 - [5] - Quote You'll notice I haven't included nova knives anywhere in the spreadsheet. This is because while they are sidearms I feel like they are a bit of a different animal. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1766	Posted - 2014.08.30 00:56:00 - [6] - Quote Back to the topic at hand though. What I'm hearing from people is a debate over the charge per shot on the bolt pistol. Two schools of thought here: 1) Bolt pistol, as it currently stands, does not match the other infantry rail weapons and should only charge prior to the first shot. Some fear that this would make the weapon OP as it would be a rather high amount of DPS though this could be countered with a reduction to the RoF. This change would possibly make the weapon easier to use. 2) The bolt pistol in its current state fires like the rail turret and the assault forge gun. People who support this school feel that changing the bolt pistol to only spool before the first shot would make it too easy to use. The advantage here is that a slower firing bolt pistol is more of a skill shot weapon. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1766	Posted - 2014.08.30 02:15:00 - [7] - Quote Give me a sec I'll add CPU and PG to the spreadsheet to make comparing easier. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1767	Posted - 2014.08.31 06:20:00 - [8] - Quote I still take issue with the fact that the Magsec has much longer range than the SMG yet has a higher DPS. Perhaps it is just me or perhaps this isn't an issue because the weapon has such a high amount of kick compared to the SMG which, as the last poster points out, makes damage application much more difficult. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1778	Posted - 2014.09.01 03:10:00 - [9] - Quote I feel like since the pistols have lower damage potential per magazine they need to have more DPS. The difference in our two scrambler pistol plans is an example of how this plays out. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:54:00 - [10] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Wouldn't it be better to have a single thread for each sidearm? I know you are redirecting things here, but the situation is a bit confused, i would like to give my feedback on specific weapons which i use, in relation to a official proposal. Is the proposal in the spreadsheet approved as delta official proposal? No, the spreadsheet is not an official Delta proposal by the devs. It was created by BL4CKST4R and myself, our proposals are each on different tabs at the bottom. The reason I am encouraging redirection to a single thread is that while it is easier to think about each weapon individually it is much harder to balance that way. A single thread, with a single spreadsheet allow both players and devs to see how changes to a single aspect of a single weapon will change it in relation to the other weapons. This kind of broad view is essential when trying to balance all the weapons as a whole and helps avoid the OP FoTM/Nerf cycle that is so destructive to the community. That being said there is no reason why there shouldn't be individual threads about each weapon as long as we bring all those ideas into perspective by comparing them to on another. That is this thread's purpose. Fun > Realism

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:56:00 - [11] - Quote OZAROW wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Back to the topic at hand though. What I'm hearing from people is a debate over the charge per shot on the bolt pistol. Two schools of thought here: 1) Bolt pistol, as it currently stands, does not match the other infantry rail weapons and should only charge prior to the first shot. Some fear that this would make the weapon OP as it would be a rather high amount of DPS though this could be countered with a reduction to the RoF. This change would possibly make the weapon easier to use. 2) The bolt pistol in its current state fires like the rail turret and the assault forge gun. People who support this school feel that changing the bolt pistol to only spool before the first shot would make it too easy to use. The advantage here is that a slower firing bolt pistol is more of a skill shot weapon. Then make two types: Keep the pistol we have now and slightly increase something, either damage or range or clip size to at least 8 or have all pistols start minimal mags and increase in size like the scp. I like the timing on the bolt pistol as is and im totally used to it, changing this without a secondary type to use would wreck the pistol avid users love so: Make a assault bolt pistol that has a wuicker rof, double the mag size, slightly less range and damage, but fix the bolt pistol s dropoff damage currently it just travels and ends with no damage on targets too far away fix this because bullets dont just vanish. Ahh an assault bolt pistol which only charges once per burst is an interesting idea. The spreadsheet is getting a bit crowded so I'm going to have to make a new tab for variants. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.05 04:28:00 - [12] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: I'm not a fan of much of the proposed changes on this. Much of this is taking what is current and flipping it on it's head, which isn't really fixing most if any of the issues. The Scrambler pistols current rate of fire in the assault variant should be where any semi-automatic weapon should not be. The scrambler pistol should be placed back to where it was. In that relation the scrambler pistol has better relation to the SMG and Magsec. I have no issues with the magsec, but I do with the SMG, and that is due to mainly it has no kick, gun rise, and dispersion etc. The magsec is more balanced with this compared to the SMG, but the Magsec sometimes feels as if it has too much of this seriously hindering its accuracy. Giving the Ion pistol too much DPS i feel is an issue even though it has a charge option, simply because of the fact of its +10 -10 percentile. I would see its ROF below the KLO scrambler pistol making it focus more on damage without overshadowing the scrambler pistol variant in the assault, burst, and breach categories. Bolt pistol I would generalize round about just below the breach scrambler pistol variant making it focus on continuous heavy damage where the bolt pistol can really shine. Lastly the flaylock doesn't need a high ROF in the slightest. This is a handheld mass driver. It should have a slowest ROF compared to the other weapons, and concentrate on damage. With that said then we can look at bringing its splash damage out a bit more, while keeping its clip size the same or shortening it further. Bringing back the flaylock pistol to where it originally was is just going to disrupt light and side arms weapons making the flaylock the answer to most scenarios again. The reason the flaylock was bad because it had too much of a splash radius, high rate of fire, and did a great deal of damage. If it is tweaked along the lines of making this weapon into an area denial weapon as its sister weapon the mass driver we should see more use from the flaylock while the other weapons and side arms are not overshadowed by it. I think many do not see the hand gun as weapons that should be able to effectively kill infantry as a stand alone weapon, but with limitations, such as range, splash damage, and small magazine sizes. Having these things will limit them to still being side arms but effective none the less, but these side arms limited ammo will make them useful for 1 on 1 scenarios, but make them struggle when faced in a less controlled fire fight scenario. Honestly I had a hard time reading your post, which is why I added paragraphs, but I think I get the general gist. I'm going to summarize your points here and take a second to respond to them. 1) You state that the ScP's rate of fire should be brought back to pre-1.8 levels, and the SMG needs an increase in either dispersion or barrel climb to make it perform on par with the Magsec. I don't really feel that the ScP's RoF is the only way to make it more competitive which is why I proposed it get a small buff to several stats. As far as your proposal to change the SMG that would be highly disagreeable to many players though I must admit I agree on one level but it is also the only side arm that is currently useful. All other side arms really just need to be brought up to its level of usefulness including the Magsec. 2) You disagree with my proposed buff to the Ion pistol stating that it should only get a damage buff and should, infact, get a RoF nerf. You also state that giving the weapon too high a DPS will be an issue. The Ion Pistol is the shortest range side arm (besides nova knives that is) and it also has horribly low accuracy. Short range weapons with low rates of fire and poor accuracy are stupidly hard to use. Lowering the Ion Pistol's RoF, even if you also give it a colossal buff to damage would make it even less useful than it currently is. I agree that too high of a DPS could be an issue here but this weapon is a bit like a shotgun. It has horribly low range and needs a high damage output to make up for this. Remember range and damage need to have an inverse relationship. 3) You say the Bolt Pistol should be made to focus on delivering continuous heavy damage. The weapon is a long range high damage per shot pistol, a sniper pistol or a hand cannon if you will. Allowing it to apply that damage continuously from long range would make it extremely overpowered. Don't get me wrong, I love this gun, but making it have continuous damage application over an extended period of time would make it OP. 4) You would like to see the flaylock become an area denial weapon but worry that having a high RoF, lots of damage, or a large blast radius could cause it to become OP again. I agree that messing with the flaylock is dangerous territory. A small change could cause it to become over powered, which is not what we are looking for here. Making the flaylock into an area denial weapon would involve giving it a large blast radius that did enough damage to be a serious threat. What you are asking for seems to be exactly what you are afraid of. The MD is already an area denial weapon, the flaylock can be a bit more unique. In my proposal its RoF, mag and damage recieve a boost but its blast radius does not. These changes allow the flaylock to do enough damage to be threatening but not able to dominate an opponent with unaimed blast radius damage. It should take some skill to use but be able to kill as well as anyother weapon. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.05 14:22:00 - [13] - Quote Mauren NOON wrote: If the magsec doesn't get a dispersion/kick reduction I will be Pacific Ocean salty...I love the magsec. I have prof. 3 reload 3 and ammo 2 If it does get a kick/dispersion reduction don't you think that will make the weapon OP? As it stands it has more range and DPS thank the SMG, a weapon that is already a tad too usable. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:58:00 - [14] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Mauren NOON wrote: If the magsec doesn't get a dispersion/kick reduction I will be Pacific Ocean salty...I love the magsec. I have prof. 3 reload 3 and ammo 2 If it does get a kick/dispersion reduction don't you think that will make the weapon OP? As it stands it has more range and DPS thank the SMG, a weapon that is already a tad too usable. Your kidding me right? More DPS than the smg my arse....smg has much more DPS than the magsec. And the magsec suffers from the rail rifles ghost shots.(shots that do no damage) and a damage buff will make it OP not a dispersion or kick reduction I can speak from extensive experience in saying that generally the guy with the SMG beats the guy with the MagSec. Usually I'm the guy with the magsec... Under the right conditions (making use of the range advantage) however, the MagSec wins. Well if you look at the numbers the Magsec does do more DPS than the SMG. Please look at the spreadsheet at the beginning of this thread for mathematical confirmation if you like. The reason you might think it is lower is that fully applying the damage the Magsec puts out is more difficult, thanks to its recoil and barrel climb. Which leads me back to my question. If you eliminated that recoil and barrel climb from the Magsec woudn't that make it a totally dominant side arm thanks to its range, DPM (damage per magazine), and DPS? Remember, I'm not asking this to make anyone angry but so that we can think about all these proposed changes in a well reasoned manner. What I'm looking for is balance, making all the weapons have a realm of usability/specialization rather than the "this one is always the best" system we have had for a while. If we all think about it and come to the conclusion that reducing the recoil on the Magsec will simply make it competetive with the SMG then I am all for it. Now that I've said all of that I'd like to point out that it might be better to simply add more recoil and/or some barrel climb to the SMG, a weapon that many of us have said is far too easy to use and fit. I actually made a similar proposal when I started this tread which generated enough hate that I backed off but I really do think this is a move that would be positive for the game as a whole. Of course I will always take feedback before changing the spreadsheet. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:00:00 - [15] - Quote Rattati or Logi Bro- Could we get some numbers on how the barrel climb works on the different weapons? It doesn't need to be anything fancy or even nice looking but since accuracy keeps coming up this would be really helpful info for out balancing discussion. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1789	Posted - 2014.09.05 20:38:00 - [16] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: Mobius Kaethis I'm not talking about removing it, I am talking about finding a dispersion, kick, and rise between the Magsec and SMG that would be a more comparable start for these two weapons. As it stands the Magsec doesn't need increased damage, the problem with it is you cant keep the gun aimed well even down sights, and the SMG is the complete opposite. The best start for these weapons is a common ground, then skew data on each to make them different and balanced from each other. From the way the Magseg and SMG stands they are both at 63m or 66m at prototype. I am not a 100% sure on this but I don't remember seeing any range adjustments for the SMG since the new weapons were added. You are not alone that the SMG needs some serious balancing. The only people who don't want this fixed is those who or ignorant to how it effects other things in the game to make it enjoyable as an whole or the ones who are against it because it brings about change to something that they are abusing. I totally understand what you are trying to do here and please understand I think it is great. To disagree with someone doesn't mean it has to be a circus like many post can be on the forum. My intentions is only to help. If CCP is paying attention to you and your nice charts I want to help with things I have tested with others. I am not sure if CCP even regards anything I constantly put up here but if your here wanting to help out and they are willing to listen to you, I would like to give non bias information your way or anyones way to what state the game mechanics or functions are in. I just want to give the best feedback even if it is what most do not want to here. At least It shows I am dependable at being one to show favoritism to something just because I like it. Ahh now this I totally agree with. Giving the SMG 50% of the recoil of the Magsec and reducing the Magsec's recoil to 50% of what it currently has is a great idea for balancing. It would definitely give us some clearer numbers to work with with regards to both weapons since we would know any difference between the two is not caused by the recoil. Now currently both weapons accuracies are quite close. The SMG is at 52.89 while the Magsec is 55.01. Since these numbers are so close I'm going to say that recoil is probably one of those stats we don't actually get provided to us by CCP. BTW the effective range of the Magsec is 66m while the effective range of the SMG is 48m. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1790	Posted - 2014.09.06 16:48:00 - [17] - Quote Unless one of the Dev's is directing conversations about nova knives here I really do think it should be saved for another thread. The knives are such a different animal that balancing them against the pistols and SMGs doesn't really make sense. Lets refocus. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1801	Posted - 2014.09.07 16:52:00 - [18] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: Fix effective range bug Minor dispersion reduction Fix false positives when rapid firing the weapon Possible, but not 100% necessary small damage buff Change operation skill from charge time reduction to heat sink So what I'm hearing from you is that you would generally like to see some weapon bugs fixed which would help all the weapons but greatly help the Ion Pistol but then you'd also like to see the IP's heat build up change to a per-shot heat build up (kind of like the ScR's heat build up over time fired) as well as changing the operations skill to match this new mechanic. I could get behind those changes for sure since the bug fixing certainly should happen if needed, though I must admit it is not something I have ever actually noticed when using the IP. My only concern is that since the IP has one of the lowest DPS in the game with out a large RoF or damage buff it really isn't going to become any more usable. While DPS isn't king it really does dictate a lot about how a weapon is used, especially in a weapon with range as short as the IP. Good stuff though. I'd love to see your take on the other pistols as well. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1808	Posted - 2014.09.09 07:20:00 - [19] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Howdy, Not sure if you are still monitoring this thread (make it a sticky maybe?), but here goes: I only have three things to talk about 1. Bolt pistol change: You proposed a raise to the fire rate of this guy, and I think maybe raising the damage would be more fun (leave fire rate same, but increase damage per shot to increase its dps). Raising the fire rate kind of changes the character of the weapon. Its kind of a slow considerate shooting, and I like how it feels compared to other sidearms. I think raising its fire rate would make it a different weapon altogether, which would be sad. 2. Bolt pistol reserve ammunition. I dont see any mention in this sheet with the reserve ammunition of each weapon. But I think its a pretty big issue. Right now I feel like when I use the SMG I have ammo enough to kill 10+ people, whereas when I use my bolt pistol (which I have to proto, where my SMG is only ADV), I feel like Im guzzling nanohives. I think maybe evening out the damage you have in your reserve ammo would be a nice thing to do, so each sidearm doesnt feel like its dramatically more needy than others. 3. Flaylock STD/ADV tiers: I think the explosive radius is pretty poor on these, I think maybe evening them all out to current proto flaylock radius would be nice. I rarely see non-proto variants of flaylock, and theres a reason for that, the proto radius is just right, but at STD/ADV level, they are too small. 1. Interesting point. What do the rest of you think? Should I lower the RoF of the bolt pistol back to normal and buff its per shot damage to keep its DPS the same as it is in my proposed stats? I do like that it keeps the weapons current character a bit more. 2. I hadn't thought about this but you are totally right. I will look into total damage potential of all ammo as an important stat too and add it to the spreadsheet. I feel like all weapons should have similar total damage potential. 3. I am pretty oppsed to a radius buff for the Flaylock since this is what made it so OP back in the day. I would be just fine with changing the operation skill and giving all Flaylocks the 1.5m blast radius of the proto weapon though as that is well within the acceptable range from what I can tell. Any thoughts on what a better alternative to the current operations skill would be? More range perhaps? Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1813	Posted - 2014.09.11 21:08:00 - [20] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Cpt McReady wrote: most comments here revolve around "buff my favorite looking sidearm, nerf the rest" and regarding SMG, it as hard to fit as a combat rifle, sometimes even harder as it requires more PG and tanking modules are PG heavy but for the fitting requirements it does not have the range or dps of a combat rifle. all other sidearms have lower CPU/PG/both requirements. if you want the other sidearms to get better then expect higher fitting requirements too. Lol. That's a bad thing? The CR is rediculously easy to fit. It isn't that the SMG is harder to fit comparatively, the CR is super easy to fit comparatively. This is my opinion as well. Now with more evil.

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1813	Posted - 2014.09.11 22:02:00 - [21] - Quote In my OP I stated that I was only showing proto weapons on the spreadsheet but that each tier should only be 5% less damaging that the tier above it. So: Advanced has 5% less DPS than Proto Basic has 5% less DPS than Advanced I'd like to add to my initial idea by saying that I think accuracy should also change 5% by tier. So: Advanced would have 5% poorer accuracy than Proto and Standard would have poorer accuracy than Advanced. As with rifles, side-arm range should be equalized among tiers with all weapons adopting the range profile of their proto varients. No, one commented on these ideas in my first post so lets give it a go again. Are these good ideas? Do they suck? What would you change to make all the weapons perfectly balanced? Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1819	Posted - 2014.09.18 14:45:00 - [22] - Quote Cpt McReady wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, I appreciate the thread and the civil discussions here, it was easy to read and absorb the theories and numbers. Here is the proposal https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=175388&find=unread flaylock receives a huge nerf, are you serious? at proto, 2.5 times the PG requirements, 25% higher cpu requirements for a meager 6% dps buff. it is even worse at adv and std level. imho the low fitting requirements are the flaylocks best attribute and you just destroy that for a minimal dps boost You are ignoring the AoE buff, the extra round per mag, the RoF buff, the projectile speed buff and the new headshot bonus. The changes in their entirety may actually make this weapon OP. Now with more evil.