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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
891
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, in order to bring more awareness to the underlying issues with the ion pistol, and at the behest of Rattati, I'll be reposting my main thoughts from this thread to here. Sorry if it seems spammy, but I really don't want this gun buffed improperly.
After reading the thread on sidearm changes, as an avid ion pistol user I was disappointed to find very little feedback given on how to fix the ion pistol other than, "just change the damage to x per shot and the dispersion to y%." But to be honest, those suggestions really don't fix the problems that are at the root of the weapons woes. First let me give you a quick synopsis on how the ion pistol functions for those of you that either have not tried it, or have only tried it once and then never touched it again, (for good reason.)
The ion pistol has 12 shots, each dealing 50, 52.5, and 55 damage per meta level. The weapon is hybrid-plasma, giving it a +10%, -10% for damage against shields and armor respectively. The ranges for each are 20/35, 22/39, and 24/42 for the optimal and effective ranges per meta level.
And the range is where we encounter our first issue. The weapon does -not- apply damage past it's effective range. This has been a problem since the weapon was released along side the bolt pistol. However while the bolt pistol was eventually fixed, the ion pistol is still splashing about like a flounder forcing its users to constantly be within nearly shotgun range just to apply damage.
To apply this damage, you can either fire one fully charged shot for a 7x multiplier which comes out to 385 on shields or 315 to armor. Or you can rapidly fire single shots with tiny charge multipliers gained from just the quick tap until the weapon overheats. Overheating at 11 shots with operation one is not uncommon.
A full charge immediately overheats as well as a 1/2 charge. The overheat lasts about 3 seconds and is generally a death sentence.
The maximum ROF for the weapon is 375. However again, there are problems here with the gun firing false positives and seizing between shots. I've noticed on -many- occasions where the gun will fire 3-4 shots while I try to finish off an opponent, but only 2 will have actually left the clip. This gives the player a false perspective on how well the gun is performing.
"Oh, he has a sliver of health, and I just shot 4 rounds with 3 of them hitting." However in reality, only 2 rounds were actually fired, and only one round actually hit the enemy for damage. I can not tell you how many times this has happened to me..... For me it's come to the point of just mashing R1 until the gun overheats regardless of what the gun is showing.
The dispersion is one of the worst in the game at 46.65. The only things with worse dispersion are the HMG and the shotgun. And we know how fickle the shotgun can be, and the HMG throws out bullets 6-16 times faster and allows over 200 shots before it overheats
Next comes the operation skill, and this I believe to be the biggest propagator of problems for the ion pistol.
Each level of the operation skill quickens the charge up rate per shot of the ion pistol by 5% for a 25% faster charge up at level 5.
Let me show a couple numbers here to represent how this functions. Let's say that the overheat happens at 100. A full charge costs 100 heat causing an instant overheat. Each tap costs let's say 9.5 heat at the bare minimum with the fastest shot you can fire causing an overheat after the 11th shot, a common occurrence.
Now let's apply the level 5 'bonus'. Regardless of weather you want it to or not, with level 5 operation, each shot now charges the weapon 25% more than it did before, even with the same length of a short tap. This means that the original 9.5 heat per shot is now 11.875 heat per shot. So now you are guaranteed an overheat on the 9th shot with short trigger pulls, and if you hold down one of the shots for a fraction of a second too long it becomes very easy to overheat it even on the 8th shot.
Getting level 5 operation effectively removes a large portion of the damage you would be able to apply before an overheat otherwise. Basically, the more you invest in the weapon, the less you get out of it. It is almost exactly the opposite of the Scrambler Pistol really.
O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
891
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
So how do we fix it?
The gun needs a few things. First and foremost, fix the stupid effective range bug. That's something that should have been fixed with the bolt pistol and will act as a massive buff in and of itself.
Next fix the false positives. If the gun isn't actually firing a round, I don't want to see a round.
If you believe a damage buff is in order, it should only be a fairly minor one. 55, 57.5, 60 tops. Although that's only a 5 damage per shot increase, it adds a potential 60 to the mag, and just under 39 extra damage for a full charge shot.
Next decrease the dispersion slightly and I do mean ever so slightly, no more than 10%. After you put this on a fully pimped Gallente assault and throw a couple levels into the dispersion, it's actually quite manageable. However if you guys at CCP decide to change the Gallente assault bonus to not include a dispersion bonus, then whatever you remove should absolutely be added to the base level of the Ion Pistol. Having that bonus is paramount to making the Ion Pistol a viable weapon.
Finally you -need- to change the operation skill of the Ion Pistol. In my opinion it would be best to change it from the current -5% charge up time, to a new -5% heat build up per charge. Let me explain how this would function.
Let's keep the overheat at 100 and the full charge at 100. But let's change the quick fire heat build up to a base 10. This means that at level 0 operation, (should CCP implement a militia variant) the gun will overheat either after a full charge, or 10 shots.
Let's add operation 1. Now a full charge only does 95 heat and allows for a follow up quick shot which now only cost 9.5 and allows for 11 shots to be fired otherwise.
Operation 2: Full charge is 90, allows for 2 follow up shots at 9 per piece and you can finally fire off the full 12 without overheating.
Operation 3: Full charge is 85, still only allows for 2 follow up shots at 8.5 per shot.
Operation 4: Full charge is 80, allows for 3 follow up shots before overheating at 8 per shot.
Operation 5: Full charge is 75, allows for 4 follow up shots at 7.5 per shot.
So now with the new bonus you actually -get- a decent return on your investment by being punished less from the overheat and actually incentivising the use of the charge thus getting rid of the current thought process of, "Oh god no I accidentally charged it, I'm screwed..."
TL:DR
Fix effective range bug
Minor dispersion reduction
Fix false positives when rapid firing the weapon
Possible, but not 100% necessary small damage buff
Change operation skill from charge time reduction to heat sink
What do ya'all think of this, thoughts and other ideas are absolutely welcome, I'd love to hear from other ion pistol users and CCP folks on the matter. :)
O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
891
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:I really like the idea of the charged shot functioning like a mini-shotgun. That may not be possible in a hotfix. This isn't a weapon I ever use, but it seems like a really excellent discussion by people who have a solid grasp of the mechanics.
Let me put the 'ion pistol shotgun' idea in a different light.
If it were function like the afore mentioned, realistically, it would function like the plasma cannon. It has a charge up time, it deals massive damage, and it only has one shot in the clip before reloading.
But now imagine if the plasma cannon had a longer charge up, dealt less damage at full potential, had less range, did less damage at range, had a longer reload, had less ammo in reserve, and almost never dealt full damage even within its optimal and directly on target.
That does not sound like a fun weapon to use.
And indeed I feel we already have a weapon that functions even closer to the ion pistol shotgun theory: the breach shotgun.
A super powerful alpha shotgun with very few bullets in the chamber and a long reload. But now imagine using the breach shotgun where it deals less damage, has a 2 second charge up time, has less ammo in reserve, has a mandatory reload after every shot, and its reload takes twice as long.
Think about how often you see the breach shotgun being used on the field and realize that's what you're saying you want the charge functionality to be as effective as. The only people who use the breach shotgun are newbros that are still experimenting, and people who are engaging in shenanigans or are trying to make a montage to look good.
I'm looking to make the gun viable, not more gimmicky.
O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
891
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Posted - 2014.09.06 22:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Daddrobit wrote: Mercy Snip :) That's a good point. So why not keep the damage multiplier for shotgun blasts too? I think there's a lot of room to play around with the stats to make it useful without surpassing the actual shotgun or outperforming other sidearms. I just like the concept of having a wide array of fun/interesting weapons that all feel very different. A slightly different version of the scrambler pistol is kinda underwhelming. Maybe this is to gimmicky to be practical though. I haven't spent nearly as much time analyzing this as you have, so I admit I could be totally wrong here.
Before my thoughts on how I'd potentially get the ion pistol shotty to work, here's a thought on weapon variations.
Personally, I feel like the IP does function in a manner that is fun/interesting/unique in comparison to the other sidearms. It's not that it's a slightly different scrambler pistol, it's that it's a miniature ScR, much in the same way that the ScP is a miniature Tac AR. Like how the flaylock is a miniature mass driver and the smg is a miniature ACR.
To call the IP a slightly different ScP is like to call the ScR a slightly different Tac AR.
I understand that you like and want more weapon variety, but to take away one variant in place of another just because it doesn't currently function at an optimal level is a step back in my opinion. We have the unique weapon system in place, we just need to figure out how to make it work.
But that's not to say I don't completely dislike the theory of having a pocket shotty sidearm. I do think it's an interesting idea, I just don't want to have my sidearm stripped of me to make that one a possibility.
So what if you petitioned to make an ion pistol -Variant- that functions as a pocket shotty? So far we only have one type of IP while the smg and ScP both get several of their own, I'd certainly like to see more variety in the gallente section.
As to how you would make that work, I came up with a possible solution.
At first I thought that it might be feasible to give all the bullets fired a damage modifier equal to the % required to charge it that far, but I quickly realized this would make it sickeningly OP because of the scaling. To explain, one bullet is 1/12 a charge, so give that single bullet 8.3% of a 7x charge multiplier, which translates to 58%. Then two bullets would each have a multiplier of 116% and so on.
At 6 bullets, each would be fired with a 350% damage modifier totaling 1050 damage.
12 bullets each with a full 700% damage would become a tank buster at 4200 damage.
That's the basic variant. No thank you. Back to the drawing boards.
So then I thought, well, just give each bullet a damage modifier of just how much it requires to charge for that single bullet. Basically, just give each bullet a 58% damage modifier. A single shot does 79, two does 158, three does 237. No odd scaling here but still capable of ludicrous power. 12 shots would still have the potential to do 948 damage, throw on a damage mod and you're putting out over a 1000 damage. You're one shotting most suits in the game at the basic level here and you're able to do it at 20 meters. It still seems a bit much.
So then I realized, why do we have to damage mod it at all now that we're talking a different variant? Pop the base damage per shot to 55 and then let the charge simply determine how many shots are fired, no tinkering with damage modification at all. 12 shots would net you 660 damage so you're still one shotting most militia frames, but well tanked basic suits and above would still survive.
Again, you're losing damage versus the standard IP as each one of those pellets could have been damage modded, but the full charge of the shotty IP does more damage that that of the standard, so maybe that would sway people in that direction.
And I have to stress this again, should CCP be listening here, this should really only be considered as a variant, I want my basic version fixed, not replaced.
And that's the end of my spam, thanks for putting up with me.
O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
897
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Posted - 2014.09.07 22:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:Daddrobit wrote:
Fix effective range bug
Minor dispersion reduction
Fix false positives when rapid firing the weapon
Possible, but not 100% necessary small damage buff
Change operation skill from charge time reduction to heat sink
So what I'm hearing from you is that you would generally like to see some weapon bugs fixed which would help all the weapons but greatly help the Ion Pistol but then you'd also like to see the IP's heat build up change to a per-shot heat build up (kind of like the ScR's heat build up over time fired) as well as changing the operations skill to match this new mechanic. I could get behind those changes for sure since the bug fixing certainly should happen if needed, though I must admit it is not something I have ever actually noticed when using the IP. My only concern is that since the IP has one of the lowest DPS in the game with out a large RoF or damage buff it really isn't going to become any more usable. While DPS isn't king it really does dictate a lot about how a weapon is used, especially in a weapon with range as short as the IP. Good stuff though. I'd love to see your take on the other pistols as well.
It's not that I want it to have a per shot heat value, it's just in that testing by these guys, it was discovered that even a slight tap on average charges about 6-7% and provides about a 45% minicharge. I don't want this to go away, I just want the operation to actually work in tandem with this function by lessening the heat punishment and not hindering it.
And as for weather or not it will make the IP just as useable as the other weapons, maybe/probably not, but every little buff helps, and seeing as how I'm now personally able to use it nearly as well as I use the smg, I'll certainly be a happy camper. :)
zzZaXxx wrote:Daddrobit wrote:Regardless of weather you want it to or not, with level 5 operation, each shot now charges the weapon 25% more than it did before, even with the same length of a short tap. This means that the original 9.5 heat per shot is now 11.875 heat per shot. So now you are guaranteed an overheat on the 9th shot with short trigger pulls, and if you hold down one of the shots for a fraction of a second too long it becomes very easy to overheat it even on the 8th shot.
Getting level 5 operation effectively removes a large portion of the damage you would be able to apply before an overheat otherwise. Basically, the more you invest in the weapon, the less you get out of it. It is almost exactly the opposite of the Scrambler Pistol really. Are you sure? IIRC heat build up in Dust is over time, so if charges are taking less time you should be able to mini-charge more in the same amount of time, thus getting more mini-charge shots per heat. EDIT: Okay so you're saying the heat build up is associated with charge amount, not time, but how do you know the 11.87 heat mini-charge shots aren't doing more damage. If so you're not losing damage, just getting slightly more damage per mini-charge shot and less shots before overheat. Oh and Daddrobit, what do you think of my Ion Pistol suggestion?
Although the bullets will be doing more damage per shot until the overheat, you will still be taking a net loss.
12*55*1.45=957 damage
9*55*1.81=895 damage or 796 damage if you overheat it on the 8th shot.
Even with the greater per shot value, you're losing damage.
As for your suggestions, I think my afore mentioned thoughts pretty much satisfied those constraints.
"So then I realized, why do we have to damage mod it at all now that we're talking a different variant? Pop the base damage per shot to 55 and then let the charge simply determine how many shots are fired, no tinkering with damage modification at all. 12 shots would net you 660 damage so you're still one shotting most militia frames, but well tanked basic suits and above would still survive.
Again, you're losing damage versus the standard IP as each one of those pellets could have been damage modded, but the full charge of the shotty IP does more damage that that of the standard, so maybe that would sway people in that direction."
660 damage is more damage than a standard IPs charge shot + 3 standard shots on top of it, so it's nothing to be sneezed at. However, without the minicharges whenever you rapid fire it like a ScP you'll be dealing less damage than the standard issue.
And if you knew that your target didn't need a full clip to finish off, you could always just partial charge it and let out a half or a quarter to insta-blap them.
Although it would have less damage in the clip, instantly dealing 660 damage at 20 meters seems like it would be able to potentially sway people in favor of using it over the standard IP no?
O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
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