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JP Acuna Pendejitos Zero-Day 197	Posted - 2014.06.20 18:02:00 - [1] - Quote I'm not the only one who thinks they're too powerful right now. Swarms did need a buff, tanks needed to get nerfed, but dropships are always in the middle... How do we deal with this?
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2281	Posted - 2014.06.20 18:06:00 - [2] - Quote I am watching this one. I don't want to jump too soon. Swarmer needed a buff. They work hard form their kills. As of now a proto swarms on a mine commando can 4 shot a python. They. Are stronger, yes. Too much? Too soon to say. Let's see, and make sure we give both sides time to adjust and that feed back is civilised and accurate. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2098	Posted - 2014.06.20 18:11:00 - [3] - Quote If Python or Incubus are now getting crashed in 3 volleys (without bumping into stuff) from a single source, then yes I think we very much need to fix. That's pretty much no warning at all. I crashed a wounded Gorgon in 3 volleys earlier today, but I've yet to square off with a healthy or higher end bird. I'll play more later. In the mean time, what are you specific observations? How many volleys are you tanking and what bird are you flying? - Pro(5) Swarmer Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Everything Dies Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 761	Posted - 2014.06.20 18:40:00 - [4] - Quote Swarms are the only thing that can hit dropships these days. With the reduction to range for rail guns, any half-intelligent pilot knows to stay away from mountainsides and they'll basically be untouchable as fewer and fewer people run swarms (unless they're close to a supply depot.) Now that dropships have basically become flying tanks (4,000+ EHP? Really?) the majority of the matches I've played (skirmish) tend to see dropships take to the sky at the start of the battle and never come down, all the while raining down death from above. Not sure how to remedy this, though. Best thing at this point would probably be to increase the speed of the actual swarm rockets to prevent dropships from darting off the moment they take any sort of damage and outrunning the second volley. Mike Patton is the greatest singer in music. Proof: Listen

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8240	Posted - 2014.06.20 18:48:00 - [5] - Quote There have only been two changes to dropships and swarms. First was a bugfix for Incubus resistance to swarms, from 55/55 to 80/120. Second was making the proficiency skill on Swarms and Forge Guns work against vehicle armour. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

taxi bastard Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 131	Posted - 2014.06.20 18:56:00 - [6] - Quote bellow is a minmitar propaganda video. as you can see the minmitar are by their LAV - the squad leader then shows the swarm user what a dropship looks like ( i assume that unless the minimitar have been enlightened by being slaves for the glorious ammar they will never have seen a dropship before). when the swarms are launched half the squad flee in the LAV afraid that their position has been given away. the rest of the squad then start saying god is great because the minimitar swarm did not blow up on launch. they continue saying god is great is disbelief that the swarm finds it target and brings down the dropship. unfortunately no ammarians were seen jumping out of the dropship and using their inertia dampeners to save themselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKoq6SrE54I
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 100	Posted - 2014.06.20 18:59:00 - [7] - Quote taxi bastard wrote: bellow is a minmitar propaganda video. as you can see the minmitar are by their LAV - the squad leader then shows the swarm user what a dropship looks like ( i assume that unless the minimitar have been enlightened by being slaves for the glorious ammar they will never have seen a dropship before). when the swarms are launched half the squad flee in the LAV afraid that their position has been given away. the rest of the squad then start saying god is great because the minimitar swarm did not blow up on launch. they continue saying god is great is disbelief that the swarm finds it target and brings down the dropship. unfortunately no ammarians were seen jumping out of the dropship and using their inertia dampeners to save themselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKoq6SrE54I pffft....terrorists
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game 312	Posted - 2014.06.20 19:02:00 - [8] - Quote When it comes to dropships flying off with like 200 hp left and surviving. Increase range and speed of swarms or ad a mechanic were when vehicles get critical damage they begin to slow down and speed back up when hp is above critical Caldari Loyalist I speak for the rabbits
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14713	Posted - 2014.06.20 19:08:00 - [9] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: When it comes to dropships flying off with like 200 hp left and surviving. Increase range and speed of swarms or ad a mechanic were when vehicles get critical damage they begin to slow down and speed back up when hp is above critical Disagree. That just ends up making it impossible to escape them. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Scheneighnay McBob Cult of Gasai 5348	Posted - 2014.06.20 19:10:00 - [10] - Quote I'm still in favor of buffing range and nerfing damage on swarms pé¦pâ+pé¦pâ½pâäpâ¬pâ¦pé¦pâ¼pâ+pâêpü»sñ¬S+ïpéè

skippy678 The Phoenix Federation Dark Taboo 2477	Posted - 2014.06.20 19:28:00 - [11] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I am watching this one. I don't want to jump too soon. Swarmers needed a buff. They work hard for their kills. As of now a proto swarms on a mine commando can 4 shot a python. They. Are stronger, yes. Too much? Too soon to say. Let's see, and make sure we give both sides time to adjust and that feed back is civilised and accurate. Agreed it is still too early to say. Vehicle balance - Prob. not going to happen in the existence of Dust 514 or the first 2 years of Legion -lolz My Youtube Lvl. 2 Forum Warrior Follow:@skippy6gaming #BetaVet
Ryder Azorria Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1005	Posted - 2014.06.20 19:37:00 - [12] - Quote skippy678 wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I am watching this one. I don't want to jump too soon. Swarmers needed a buff. They work hard for their kills. As of now a proto swarms on a mine commando can 4 shot a python. They. Are stronger, yes. Too much? Too soon to say. Let's see, and make sure we give both sides time to adjust and that feed back is civilised and accurate. Agreed it is still too early to say. Vehicle balance - Prob. not going to happen in the existence of Dust 514 or the first 2 years of Legion -lolz It's probably not going to ever happen - mostly because nobody can agree on what makes good vehicle/infantry balance.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 12	Posted - 2014.06.20 22:07:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: There have only been two changes to dropships and swarms. First was a bugfix for Incubus resistance to swarms, from 55/55 to 80/120. Second was making the proficiency skill on Swarms and Forge Guns work against vehicle armour. I think you should give a rep bonus to dropships do we get our old reps back that would fix the swarm launcher dilema Without nerfing any av.
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 570	Posted - 2014.06.20 22:15:00 - [14] - Quote If pilots are now afraid of my Proto Min Commando wielding Proto Swarms and dual DMG mods, then I think light AV is back on track. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 3385	Posted - 2014.06.20 22:32:00 - [15] - Quote I think they balanced swarms vs dropships by lowering the SL range by over 50 percent. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Everything Dies Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 764	Posted - 2014.06.21 00:39:00 - [16] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm still in favor of buffing range and nerfing damage on swarms I'd like to see a return to 400 meters or so for range and then give it a few weeks to see if damage needs to be reduced. Bad things tend to happen when more than one change is made a time. Mike Patton is the greatest singer in music. Proof: Listen
Cogadh Draco WarRavens Final Resolution. 42	Posted - 2014.06.21 00:46:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: There have only been two changes to dropships and swarms. First was a bugfix for Incubus resistance to swarms, from 55/55 to 80/120. Second was making the proficiency skill on Swarms and Forge Guns work against vehicle armour. Please, no more 'fixes' or 'nerfs' to either gun please. Ok maybe swarm missiles could do with a minor projectile speed buff though.
DozersMouse XIII Inner.Hell 847	Posted - 2014.06.21 00:51:00 - [18] - Quote I've been running swarms for over a month now they feel good right where there at right now just because something kills you does not mean it needs to be changed NERF THE TAMSEN
Beld Errmon 1692	Posted - 2014.06.21 01:06:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: There have only been two changes to dropships and swarms. First was a bugfix for Incubus resistance to swarms, from 55/55 to 80/120. Second was making the proficiency skill on Swarms and Forge Guns work against vehicle armour. And you nerfed armor repairers, and rather then doing it in a way that balanced the problem of vehicles stacking multiple reps you just did a blanket nerf to all armor reps, now stacking multiple reps is the only smart way to fit a vehicle, with armor hardeners being useless and buffer barely worth the loss of rep power. Once again dropships get screwed on the alter of AV vs Tanks. Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
Byozuma Kegawa Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 275	Posted - 2014.06.21 01:41:00 - [20] - Quote Define screwed. No, really, all they did was improve armor resistance on a class of dropship and adjust the skill bonus for the main AV weapons. Swarms were always supposed to be the main AV to use on dropships, just as forgegus were always supposed to be the main AV to use on tanks. It only makes sense that swarms would rock a dropship if properly skilled/high level. This is just another example of sucking it up and carrying on.

JP Acuna Pendejitos Zero-Day 198	Posted - 2014.06.21 01:46:00 - [21] - Quote I'm concerned because dropships seem to have come back to where we didn't like them: they die too easily. I'd be ok dying more often, but then the ISK cost is wrong. I lose in a single ship what i can't make in 2 matches.
DozersMouse XIII Inner.Hell 847	Posted - 2014.06.21 01:50:00 - [22] - Quote JP Acuna wrote: I'm concerned because dropships seem to have come back to where we didn't like them: they die too easily. I'd be ok dying more often, but then the ISK cost is wrong. I lose in a single ship what i can't make in 2 matches. I agree on cost 100% but swarms as of right now feel right NERF THE TAMSEN
Byozuma Kegawa Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 275	Posted - 2014.06.21 01:52:00 - [23] - Quote Honestly, dropships needed a little more fragility. I've been on so many teams where the enemy had a dropship or two just loitering, shooting people then running away as the swarms started to respawn. They'd get pegged a few times, run off, repair, fly back once the swarms were replaced with rifles and the cycle would start all over again. You just couldn't kill them without vehicle support and even then, only HAV support cause LAV turrets are exposed enough that the gunner is easily picked off. This was a needed change, dropships need to know that ground troops ARE a threat and not ants to be stepped on.
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 3387	Posted - 2014.06.21 02:54:00 - [24] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: I've been running swarms for over a month now they feel good right where there at right now just because something kills you does not mean it needs to be changed Let me know when you kill something with them "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Yeeeuuuupppp 356	Posted - 2014.06.21 05:02:00 - [25] - Quote When my incubus doesn't out run them, they hurt like amofo Rage Proficiency V Mic status: Muted Storage Wars Champion.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 13	Posted - 2014.06.21 06:39:00 - [26] - Quote Byozuma Kegawa wrote: Define screwed. No, really, all they did was improve armor resistance on a class of dropship and adjust the skill bonus for the main AV weapons. Swarms were always supposed to be the main AV to use on dropships, just as forgegus were always supposed to be the main AV to use on tanks. It only makes sense that swarms would rock a dropship if properly skilled/high level. This is just another example of sucking it up and carrying on. Militia swarms wreck now, at least give us dropshippers our old reps back.
David Spd Caldari State 140	Posted - 2014.06.21 06:56:00 - [27] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: JARREL THOMAS wrote: When it comes to dropships flying off with like 200 hp left and surviving. Increase range and speed of swarms or ad a mechanic were when vehicles get critical damage they begin to slow down and speed back up when hp is above critical Disagree. That just ends up making it impossible to escape them. So you mean to say that if a vehicle driver overextends and pushes their luck, takes critical damage he/she should still be allowed to escape? Anti-vehicle weapons are supposed to be a deterrent, sure, but if a vehicle driver is incompetent or sticks around too long they should be penalized for it. --> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <-- "Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 830	Posted - 2014.06.21 07:12:00 - [28] - Quote Seems to be a misconception that all dropships got frailer. All CCP did was correct the odd swarm damage efficiencies against Incubus. So as a Python pilot, I haven't noticed any changes at all. :P Medium frame EHP is not medium
DozersMouse XIII Inner.Hell 848	Posted - 2014.06.21 07:17:00 - [29] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: I've been running swarms for over a month now they feel good right where there at right now just because something kills you does not mean it needs to be changed Let me know when you kill something with them been running them for over a month now before hotfix bravo I was going 50k+ damage a game with maybe 1 vehicle kill (besides lavs) using proto swarms after hotfix bravo i'm getting high damage with results 2+ a game using cbr7's and proto NERF THE TAMSEN
Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1870	Posted - 2014.06.21 07:22:00 - [30] - Quote I haven't swarmed much since Bravo, however it still took our whole squad of proto AV to down an Incubus- i blame that on him being smart and not trying to be a tank. CCP nerf thinking. In all honesty though, we only hit him with 2 volleys a piece before he peeled off, almost about to die. I find thst to be a decent compromise, in the fact that solo i have an opportunity to kill him, but it requires him to either be cocky and stock around past my 3rd volley(in which my 4-5th are already reloaded and firing) or it takes multiple people to down. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!

Chuck Nurris DCLXVI Enlightened Infantries Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 25	Posted - 2014.06.21 08:59:00 - [31] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If Python or Incubus are now getting crashed in 3 volleys (without bumping into stuff) from a single source, then yes I think we very much need to fix. That's pretty much no warning at all. I crashed a wounded Gorgon in 3 volleys earlier today, but I've yet to square off with a healthy or higher end bird. I'll play more later. In the mean time, what are you specific observations? How many volleys are you tanking and what bird are you flying? - Pro(5) Swarmer If an incubus is killed by a single swarmer, it's a bad pilot. Those blighters are so damn fast, they can outrun the second volley of a swarm if they are even a half decent pilot. Addition: I've seen an Incubus do down fast. But that's because others were shooting at it as well. First proto swarm alerts the pilot, he moves up, a tank rail take out most of it's armor, and knocks it over, and the second swarm get a chance. Those accidental sucker punches are rare, but essentially what is needed to kill them, unless they do what the idiot I killed the other day, just hovering over the infantry he was mowing down. He didn't move until I had shot all three loads in my clip. Dual SL Commando FTW. But such a fit is a suicide mission, as you have no anti-infantry gear on you.
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1750	Posted - 2014.06.21 09:10:00 - [32] - Quote When exactly did these changes happen? 'Cause as of 3 days ago I still came across Incubus who could take 2 full clips and still fly away. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 827	Posted - 2014.06.21 09:45:00 - [33] - Quote Everything Dies wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm still in favor of buffing range and nerfing damage on swarms I'd like to see a return to 400 meters or so for range and then give it a few weeks to see if damage needs to be reduced. Bad things tend to happen when more than one change is made a time. Vehicles would be Nonexistent then. 200 M would be a starting test, then possibly 250, but 400 is asking for swarms leaking from every supply depot on the map. Large railgun installations (the ones that are stuck in the floor) Need the ability to LOOK UP, and such would possibly make them more useful on the map (but the devs made sure that 60% of every turret's firing range is obstructed by an inconvenient object...) If dropships actually become a problem, then I'd suggest increasing the angle of fire that tanks have by a tad, so that there is still a blind spot above the tank that a dropship can strafe in, but if the tank moves, and the ship strafes slightly off course, the tank should be allowed to get a hit in. Cause as it is now, if they get over a tank, you cannot do anything about it aside from run under a building overhang. DS can fly faster than a tank, pivot around their targeting point, which allows them to shoot under partial cover structures instead of being impeded by them, and can basically just fall asleep with the fire button held until the tank is dead. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust, theme
IraqiFriendshipExplosive ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 95	Posted - 2014.06.21 09:49:00 - [34] - Quote I feel AV vs dropoships is a lot more balanced at the moment. I like the fact that I have to be careful about swarmers in my Python. The only thing I think needs adjusting now is possibly the price of assault dropships. I would suggest to decrease the price somewhat - don't make them dirt cheap but I am thinking maybe a 30% price reduction?
Fremder V1 Armed And Aimless 10	Posted - 2014.06.21 10:37:00 - [35] - Quote In my opinion, a balanced scenario would be one, in which a single milita swarmlauncher is enough to scare off a dropship, and dropships are cheap enough to still use/risk them. Which would mean cheaper dropships, stronger swarmlaunchers. Their rather short range looks fine to me. In a 1 vs 1 against a specialised, direct counter, dropships should be forced to retreat, but they also should have the chance to do so.
Greiv Rabbah BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 6	Posted - 2014.06.21 11:11:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: There have only been two changes to dropships and swarms. First was a bugfix for Incubus resistance to swarms, from 55/55 to 80/120. Second was making the proficiency skill on Swarms and Forge Guns work against vehicle armour. I thought the proficiency change came in the patch after swarm lock on range & forge gun range was reduced(this is when drop ships got out of hand)
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 509	Posted - 2014.06.21 11:33:00 - [37] - Quote Byozuma Kegawa wrote: Honestly, dropships needed a little more fragility. I've been on so many teams where the enemy had a dropship or two just loitering, shooting people then running away as the swarms started to respawn. They'd get pegged a few times, run off, repair, fly back once the swarms were replaced with rifles and the cycle would start all over again. You just couldn't kill them without vehicle support and even then, only HAV support cause LAV turrets are exposed enough that the gunner is easily picked off. This was a needed change, dropships need to know that ground troops ARE a threat and not ants to be stepped on. The prices of ADS are quite ridiculous if you want them to be fragile. It can take three matches to finance an ADS.
Amuf Oratok Maphia Clan Corporation 17	Posted - 2014.06.21 12:00:00 - [38] - Quote Maybe an alternative version of SL would do the trick. Less but quicker missiles would create an anti-ship weapon, leaving the classic version more suited for tanks. YOLAAC: You Only Live As A Clone Die and Rise
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 327	Posted - 2014.06.21 12:16:00 - [39] - Quote Unless its tanked to the high heavens, dropship should die very easily to a swarm launcher. Especially if the swarm user has 3 damage mods and proficiency 4. ADS do cost too much and the price needs a reduction but you cant argue that because it does its job it needs to be toned down.
mattphi94 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2014.06.21 13:24:00 - [40] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Everything Dies wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm still in favor of buffing range and nerfing damage on swarms I'd like to see a return to 400 meters or so for range and then give it a few weeks to see if damage needs to be reduced. Bad things tend to happen when more than one change is made a time. Vehicles would be Nonexistent then. 200 M would be a starting test, then possibly 250, but 400 is asking for swarms leaking from every supply depot on the map. You are right, 400 m does sound like a lot to me. Probably 200 to 250 would be a better option. Personaly having dropships get out of reach has been my main problem with them.

Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1375	Posted - 2014.06.21 13:50:00 - [41] - Quote JP Acuna wrote: I'm not the only one who thinks they're too powerful right now. Swarms did need a buff, tanks needed to get nerfed, but dropships are always in the middle... How do we deal with this? Swarms haven't been buffed, all that's happened is bugs have been fixed. This is how it was always supposed to be.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8260	Posted - 2014.06.21 13:51:00 - [42] - Quote Greiv Rabbah wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: There have only been two changes to dropships and swarms. First was a bugfix for Incubus resistance to swarms, from 55/55 to 80/120. Second was making the proficiency skill on Swarms and Forge Guns work against vehicle armour. I thought the proficiency change came in the patch after swarm lock on range & forge gun range was reduced(this is when drop ships got out of hand) Yes, that's correct. However, there was a bug we just fixed that was preventing it from applying. Technically it also affects Mass Drivers as well, but I don't think anyone uses them against dropships. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1146	Posted - 2014.06.21 13:59:00 - [43] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: If pilots are now afraid of my Proto Min Commando wielding Proto Swarms and dual DMG mods, then I think light AV is back on track. Not sure if you're being a sarcastic. If it takes the most min/maxed AV infantry setup to get to that level i'm not quite sure we're there. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1146	Posted - 2014.06.21 14:06:00 - [44] - Quote mattphi94 wrote: Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Everything Dies wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm still in favor of buffing range and nerfing damage on swarms I'd like to see a return to 400 meters or so for range and then give it a few weeks to see if damage needs to be reduced. Bad things tend to happen when more than one change is made a time. Vehicles would be Nonexistent then. 200 M would be a starting test, then possibly 250, but 400 is asking for swarms leaking from every supply depot on the map. You are right, 400 m does sound like a lot to me. Probably 200 to 250 would be a better option. Personaly having dropships get out of reach has been my main problem with them. I would say we need to leave the range alone but noticeably increase the missile velocity. Personally, guys that outrun my missiles frustrate me far more than guys tanking my damage. The guy trying to just tank the swarms will eventually get hammered (usually out of overconfidence) but the pilot that hits the jets and gets away scot free - not a fan of that. Another interesting thought might be to change the damage type of the missiles or provide variants that do. This is a very EVE-esque solution but might be worth exploring. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1756	Posted - 2014.06.21 15:54:00 - [45] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: mattphi94 wrote: Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Everything Dies wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm still in favor of buffing range and nerfing damage on swarms I'd like to see a return to 400 meters or so for range and then give it a few weeks to see if damage needs to be reduced. Bad things tend to happen when more than one change is made a time. Vehicles would be Nonexistent then. 200 M would be a starting test, then possibly 250, but 400 is asking for swarms leaking from every supply depot on the map. You are right, 400 m does sound like a lot to me. Probably 200 to 250 would be a better option. Personaly having dropships get out of reach has been my main problem with them. I would say we need to leave the range alone but noticeably increase the missile velocity. Personally, guys that outrun my missiles frustrate me far more than guys tanking my damage. The guy trying to just tank the swarms will eventually get hammered (usually out of overconfidence) but the pilot that hits the jets and gets away scot free - not a fan of that. Another interesting thought might be to change the damage type of the missiles or provide variants that do. This is a very EVE-esque solution but might be worth exploring. I think swarms should at least have the range of the small rail turret (250m). Kinda stupid a DS gunner can hit me when I can't hit it. Edit: Missile velocity would be good, but you don't want to overdo it. DS's should be able to get away with an afterburner, but not by straight up out-running them. Increasing them to just over a DS's afterburner top speed would let DS pilots out range them before they can catch up while not out-right out-running them. It's a shame there is nothing a DS can use as a countermeasure, that would make it a bit easier to balance... PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1146	Posted - 2014.06.21 16:08:00 - [46] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: I think swarms should at least have the range of the small rail turret (250m). Kinda stupid a DS gunner can hit me when I can't hit it. Edit: Missile velocity would be good, but you don't want to overdo it. DS's should be able to get away with an afterburner, but not by straight up out-running them. Increasing them to just over a DS's afterburner top speed would let DS pilots out range them before they can catch up while not out-right out-running them. It's a shame there is nothing a DS can use as a countermeasure, that would make it a bit easier to balance... Good point, Baal. I think if you somewhat equalized the small turret ranges and swarms that might work pretty well. I don't know if I would go quite to 250 though. If a guy nails me from that far away while i'm moving i think he should be rewarded. Your missile velocity comment is exactly what i'm thinking. The ABs versus missile velocity should basically set up the scenario that ABs are used to get out of lock range very quickly but not out run the missiles in flight. One of the interesting things about slow missile speed is that if you engage a DS or HAV at range you can have a second volley on the way before the first even hits and a third starting to lock. If you increase missile speed you are better assured first strike but a savvy pilot might actually have more reaction time to deal with follow on volleys. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1757	Posted - 2014.06.21 16:22:00 - [47] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: I think swarms should at least have the range of the small rail turret (250m). Kinda stupid a DS gunner can hit me when I can't hit it. Edit: Missile velocity would be good, but you don't want to overdo it. DS's should be able to get away with an afterburner, but not by straight up out-running them. Increasing them to just over a DS's afterburner top speed would let DS pilots out range them before they can catch up while not out-right out-running them. It's a shame there is nothing a DS can use as a countermeasure, that would make it a bit easier to balance... Good point, Baal. I think if you somewhat equalized the small turret ranges and swarms that might work pretty well. I don't know if I would go quite to 250 though. If a guy nails me from that far away while i'm moving i think he should be rewarded. Your missile velocity comment is exactly what i'm thinking. The ABs versus missile velocity should basically set up the scenario that ABs are used to get out of lock range very quickly but not out run the missiles in flight. One of the interesting things about slow missile speed is that if you engage a DS or HAV at range you can have a second volley on the way before the first even hits and a third starting to lock. If you increase missile speed you are better assured first strike but a savvy pilot might actually have more reaction time to deal with follow on volleys. The biggest issue I have with swarms right now is the bug where the damn lock-on button stops working. In situations with lots of latency issues or bad framerate you have to repress the lock button several times for it to work, and sometimes it stutters your lock-on timer causing you to either release before the lock is in place or causing you to have to hold it longer "just in case". Typically only happens on consecutive shots, but if I had any one wish for swarms, it would be to fix that crap. Swarms are tactically oriented AV as opposed to skill oriented (PC) or aim oriented (forge), I just wish people who don't use them could see that. Another thing I'd like to see is a single-fire dumbfire mode. I suppose it could be used for anti-infantry, but with it's tiny splash raduius I really don't see it being very good at it. I want a Dumbfire mode so I can run up on a tank and hold the trigger and have all of my missiles shoot out one at a time (one missile every... 0.5s? That's the MLT small rail RoF, 175 damage per missile) so I know they won't spiral around and hit the stupid terrain. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1964	Posted - 2014.06.21 21:19:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Technically it also affects Mass Drivers as well, but I don't think anyone uses them against dropships. You'd be wrong on that guess. It's ore of a last resort thing, I'm cruising around with a Mass Driver, 'splodin fools, then oh sheeet, a drop ship shows up. What? No supply depot? Fire ze Mass Drivers! (It's actually useful for scaring then off, and you can land the odd hit here and there) I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1870	Posted - 2014.06.22 02:00:00 - [49] - Quote I wish we could make it more lag friendly(swarms) as when there's any semblance of latency the audio glitches out, the lock box doesn't turn red, and half the time the lock box doesn't even engage. I wish we could make the L1 button 'arm' the swarms, and would actively search for locks(showing the bracket boxes when held) and would flash the one you're currently selecting, while R1 would begin the lock phase, and releasing would fire, not all unlike how it is now, but maybe adding on a 'progress' bar at the top of the lockfinder? Something, anything would do, but i just want a visual for when swarms are locked rather than listening through the sound of millions of other things to hear 'beep beep beeeeeeeeeeep' which 33% time doesn't even play. Although, it'll never happen in '14 thx to 'SrryNoClientUpdaetz' General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Storm Shelton 0uter.Heaven 256	Posted - 2014.06.22 05:46:00 - [50] - Quote I'm pretty sure if I get hit by swarms in my Python, I don't stick around for too long. Militia Swarms or Proto Swarms, They all hurt. Swarms are not just for killing dropships, But they also serve as a dropship repellant. Just because you fire a volly of swarms at an ADS doesn't mean it should automatically go down. You have to take into account of the pilot's smarts & evasive skills. Swarms Launchers are perfect right now. If you just can't take an ADS down with them, You're at least holding them at bay so your team can hack an objective or keep a perimeter on lockdown. I think an issue may be the fact that a lot of times when people try to take on enemy ADS, They do it solo. They are doing & running things alone on a game that rewards teamwork. Try to have a friend swarm with you and work as a unit to accomplish your goal. Your chances of success will surely rise. If you still cannot take down the enemy ADS, Then that pilot isn't stupid. But I do know, A pilot spending his/her time dodging forges & swarms, Will be spending less time causing mayhem across the map. Also, You have to consider there are players that run full squads of vehicles. A pilot that has his gunners or a bunch of tankers or whatever they may have. Seasoned vehicle experts are not easy to be taken down. People who know what they can take and what they can't. If an ADS pilot has two gunners, Don't run into the open with your swarms by yourself and expect to do anything. They will destroy you. Play smart & coordinate fire to accomplish this Anti-ADS goal. Tanker alt -- Quasar Storm Blitz calls me Rolling Thunder Medical Vending Machine^^Nanite Delight

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2301	Posted - 2014.06.22 07:15:00 - [51] - Quote There is no way an increase in range or speed can happen without completely destroying swarm vs drop ship balance. 175 meters seems an odd number. why not 180 or 170. or a neat 200. You need to ask your selves why you want to add 15m so you get 200m range. Why is it? The main reason is that then dropships who in most battles are out of range would be just in range. Fine. But now ask yourselves why it is that they are just out of range? The answer to those questions and the seemingly random 175m lock range is map design and render distance. I have been over this a few times, and demonstrated it in video form many times. Infantry normally do not render until the are 50m away. That gives you 115m to see and hear me coming and shoot at me before I can even see you. Now go look at the maps. 175m range was chosen for a reason. It stops you sitting at one objective and shooting another, and also from sitting in the redline and shooting the objective. Even now, say on Iron Delta, you can sit on the redline and hit dropships over the domination objective. Any more range than 175m will bring back redline swarming. Any more than 175m will bring back swarms sitting in safety at a held objective just spamming shots at the other objectives. Increasing missile speed is also a short sighted suggestion. Why is is do you think that dropships always run away? We have no choice. We cannot fit enough tank to survive current AV. The only option is to run. You are missing the causal and effect here. We run because swarms are too fast and too strong to absorb. The cause of dropship speed is your AV. We cannot see you. You always get the first shot in. You are invisible. Forges are invisible and the shots incredibly hard to track back to source. We have a tiny amount to none of cover. You are able to hide behind a wall but I cant. Speed is my wall. So no. Speed and range changes are not the solution. They are a return to the broken mechanics we have been trying to fix for over a year. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1874	Posted - 2014.06.22 07:35:00 - [52] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: There is no way an increase in range or speed can happen without completely destroying swarm vs drop ship balance. 175 meters seems an odd number. why not 180 or 170. or a neat 200. You need to ask your selves why you want to add 15m so you get 200m range. Why is it? The main reason is that then dropships who in most battles are out of range would be just in range. Fine. But now ask yourselves why it is that they are just out of range? The answer to those questions and the seemingly random 175m lock range is map design and render distance. I have been over this a few times, and demonstrated it in video form many times. Infantry normally do not render until the are 50m away. That gives you 125m to see and hear me coming and shoot at me before I can even see you. Now go look at the maps. 175m range was chosen for a reason. It stops you sitting at one objective and shooting another, and also from sitting in the redline and shooting the objective. Even now, say on Iron Delta, you can sit on the redline and hit dropships over the domination objective. Any more range than 175m will bring back redline swarming. Any more than 175m will bring back swarms sitting in safety at a held objective just spamming shots at the other objectives. Increasing missile speed is also a short sighted suggestion. Why is is do you think that dropships always run away? We have no choice. We cannot fit enough tank to survive current AV. The only option is to run. You are missing the cause and effect here. We run because swarms are too fast and too strong to absorb due to the first mover advantage. The cause of dropship speed is your AV. We cannot see you. You always get the first shot in. You are invisible. Forges are invisible and the shots incredibly hard to track back to source. We have a tiny amount to none of cover. You are able to hide behind a wall but I cant. Speed is my wall. So no. Speed and range changes are not the solution. They are a return to the broken mechanics we have been trying to fix for over a year. But you're not against a Assault Swarm, havin -10% damage and +20%(35 meter) lock range swarm, with +10% speed? As usual, arbitrary numbers at best, but some Ads Pilots can hit you from 180m with impunity with Xt's or even a Rail if they're THAT godly. Certainly you're not against Swarmers getting an ability to specialize into countering finicky DS pilots with a chaser type Swarm? Edit: i understand where you're coming from, but this game relies entirely on Isk Destruction. If you live all match 'playing by the rules' then power to ya, but it's not balanced (EvE wise) when simply following the rules deems you invulnerable. Yes, pilots deserve to have an opportunity to keep their ship, no they shouldn't be expected to never lose it, all by following a 'guidebook' telling them exactly when to leave. It should be a hell of a lot more mixed up than thst, giving AV a chance to kill the pilot, much akin to a Pilot being able to Blitzkrieg an AV nest and wipe then out. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 830	Posted - 2014.06.22 07:40:00 - [53] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Greiv Rabbah wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: There have only been two changes to dropships and swarms. First was a bugfix for Incubus resistance to swarms, from 55/55 to 80/120. Second was making the proficiency skill on Swarms and Forge Guns work against vehicle armour. I thought the proficiency change came in the patch after swarm lock on range & forge gun range was reduced(this is when drop ships got out of hand) Yes, that's correct. However, there was a bug we just fixed that was preventing it from applying. Technically it also affects Mass Drivers as well, but I don't think anyone uses them against dropships. I do... but mostly to pester them away because if it's close enough to hit, it's an ADS that is usually within 40 meters of the ground... http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust, theme
Jace Silencerwolf Outcasts For Hire 0	Posted - 2014.06.22 08:06:00 - [54] - Quote as far as damage going against dropships swarms are good if you want more damage go into Minnie commando for the 10% damage plus 2 damage mods and it is a boost against them a big boost against their armor. maybe if the swarm missiles were about 15-20% faster on the assault version. it would be better then 2 targets with the limited range on them now. the range should be 225-250 meters. the 175 is too short by the time you fire your second swarm the dropship see them and can fly away before you can lock on the 3 shot but again ads should be hit by 2 or 3 av guys at once
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 830	Posted - 2014.06.22 08:31:00 - [55] - Quote Swarm missile volley speed increase cannot be implemented in a balanced manner without decreasing tracking. I highly doubt an ADS with a small rail turret could hit infantry 250m away; the infantry won't even render. The only way to pull this off is with is with a squad member scanning for the ADS and the ADS pilot having ridiculously good aim. Swarms should be able to chase away AND KILL dropships. Don't BS by saying swarms only exist to chase away dropships. No one's going to run a weapon that can only chase away whatever it shoots at. Other players aren't NPCs that exist to be inadequate, cannon fodder for you. Feel bad for saying something so self-serving. Also what Judge said. Medium frame EHP is not medium
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2303	Posted - 2014.06.22 11:26:00 - [56] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: But you're not against a Assault Swarm, havin -10% damage and +20%(35 meter) lock range swarm, with +10% speed? As usual, arbitrary numbers at best, but some Ads Pilots can hit you from 180m with impunity with Xt's or even a Rail if they're THAT godly. Certainly you're not against Swarmers getting an ability to specialize into countering finicky DS pilots with a chaser type Swarm? Edit: i understand where you're coming from, but this game relies entirely on Isk Destruction. If you live all match 'playing by the rules' then power to ya, but it's not balanced (EvE wise) when simply following the rules deems you invulnerable. Yes, pilots deserve to have an opportunity to keep their ship, no they shouldn't be expected to never lose it, all by following a 'guidebook' telling them exactly when to leave. It should be a hell of a lot more mixed up than thst, giving AV a chance to kill the pilot, much akin to a Pilot being able to Blitzkrieg an AV nest and wipe then out. My next video.. which I am doing right now is pro swarm and from the swarm players perspective. You'll have to sit down to watch it if you swarm as it will bring back horrible moments of BS. Ill TRY finish it today. I'll hang off too many replies here until I release the video. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 328	Posted - 2014.06.22 14:05:00 - [57] - Quote Cos 25m is gonna make swarms so OP. lower the price of dropships and it wont be a problem. I dont care if you cant hit infantry if you are in range i will shoot you. Dont see you complaining about forge guns so why be so against a 25m buff?
Beld Errmon 1693	Posted - 2014.06.22 14:15:00 - [58] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Cos 25m is gonna make swarms so OP. lower the price of dropships and it wont be a problem. I dont care if you cant hit infantry if you are in range i will shoot you. Dont see you complaining about forge guns so why be so against a 25m buff? Thats because forge guns take skill, not a great deal imo i've picked them up and downed ADS with ease, the fact so many people have trouble with them leaves me fearing for the future of mankind, but swarms, not one bit of skill involved, just hold and release. You wouldn't believe the amount of people who will pull one out the moment a dropship is seen, i've had games where there has been no less then 6 swarmers spamming at me no stop, all i could do was fly around up high and twiddle my thumbs, you guys with the nublauncher have been handed a license to print WPs and incubus kills, but you still want more buffs, your all greedy if you ask me. Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
Jack Galen Vanguardian Remnant 2	Posted - 2014.06.22 14:16:00 - [59] - Quote I pilot most of the time with an incubus (AV) or a grimsnes (infantry support). This is the bit I don't understand: Infantry, your suits and weapons cost about ten percent of the cost of an ADS, possibly twenty percent for all you protos, and that's for an ADV ADS, not proto. When you are having a hard time killing it, consider that; the pilot has invested huge amounts of SP and ISK, whereas a militia forge gun on a militia frame can end an ADS quite easily. I am actually very happy with AV at the moment - flying can be easy, unless the enemy work together (wait, what? :P) to take you down. When 2-3 infantry / a rail tank and a forge work together to take me out, I feel that I'm fair game. What I don't want to see are the return of the days where I lift off and suddenly get mullered by 7 groups of unrendered swarms, 2 forge guns and a rail installation within 5 seconds, every time. :/ One other idea: why can't it be a food chain? Infantry>Tanks>dropships>infantry for example? Aren't some match ups meant to be more one-sided than others? :)
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 328	Posted - 2014.06.22 14:33:00 - [60] - Quote Jack Galen wrote: I pilot most of the time with an incubus (AV) or a grimsnes (infantry support). This is the bit I don't understand: Infantry, your suits and weapons cost about ten percent of the cost of an ADS, possibly twenty percent for all you protos, and that's for an ADV ADS, not proto. When you are having a hard time killing it, consider that; the pilot has invested huge amounts of SP and ISK, whereas a militia forge gun on a militia frame can end an ADS quite easily. I am actually very happy with AV at the moment - flying can be easy, unless the enemy work together (wait, what? :P) to take you down. When 2-3 infantry / a rail tank and a forge work together to take me out, I feel that I'm fair game. What I don't want to see are the return of the days where I lift off and suddenly get mullered by 7 groups of unrendered swarms, 2 forge guns and a rail installation within 5 seconds, every time. :/ One other idea: why can't it be a food chain? Infantry>Tanks>dropships>infantry for example? Aren't some match ups meant to be more one-sided than others? :) My AV fit costs 150k. Unless your dropship costs 1.5 million its not 10 percent. I have invested sp into my suit, equipment guns and other skills i need. I am weak to any form of anti infantry in order to kill you. I will die more than you will trying to get a decent shot. It will be more expensive for me. And as for needing 3 people to kill you that is a farce. In a 16v16 match hqving 3 people out of the fit gives the team a large advantage.

Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 491	Posted - 2014.06.22 14:39:00 - [61] - Quote This is entirely anecdotal, but I want to display what I've been seeing from Bravo, as both an infantry player and an ADS pilot. Some quick background: I am an L4 Python/L3 Incubus, with all modules unlocked up to prototype and with a sprinkling of fitting skills; I am an L3 Minmatar Commando, with L3 Swarms and L3 Damage Mods. I spent several games of Domination yesterday fighting alongside my friend (CalCom L5; Swarms Prof 3; DMods L3) and we destroyed a whole heap of HAVs and ADSs. Single handedly in one game of Domination, I killed three Incubi, two Grimsnes/Gorgons and continually held those Incubus pilots to high speed strafing runs against our uplinks because they could not hover. Inversely, I have also spent several games performing harassment and denial duty in my Python (as well as a lot of anti air duty in my Incubus!) where, if unchallenged, I was able to provide significant close air support, blunting infantry advances or scattering groups. But when presented with AV, I was forced to retreat and perform high speed passes to locate and destroy the threats, or otherwise coordinate with my team to neutralise them, allowing me to resume operations. I lost quite a lot of dropships to different AV: I lost several to those last few Swarms hitting me before I reach escape velocity; I lost several to accurate Forge Gunners. But out and out, Swarms were incredibly dangerous, even when I knee full well to respect them. Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that, as is, Swarms are very likely to kill an even vaguely overconfident pilot while the twitchy, aware pilot will still have a good likelihood of losing a dropship. Forge Guns are equally effective, but their range/accuracy means they have to deal with a whole different box of frogs. So, in my opinion, Swarms are in a healthy place with regards to ADSs and vice versa. I'd like to see Assault Swarm ?Launchers be the slightly faster/longer ranged version, but as both an ADS pilot and a Swarm user, I'd be hesitant about just how much more speed/range we'd be adding.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 491	Posted - 2014.06.22 14:49:00 - [62] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: My AV fit costs 150k. Unless your dropship costs 1.5 million its not 10 percent. I have invested sp into my suit, equipment guns and other skills i need. I am weak to any form of anti infantry in order to kill you. I will die more than you will trying to get a decent shot. It will be more expensive for me. And as for needing 3 people to kill you that is a farce. In a 16v16 match hqving 3 people out of the fit gives the team a large advantage. My AV fit (STD MinCom/ADV Swarm) costs 20,000 ISK, and while soloing a vehicle is difficult, it is not impossible for me. I realise not everyone runs Commandos, and that is fair, but even a single Swarmer is something for your average ADS pilot to be concerned about. Take a look at the other example: does your Proto heavy cost 4x that of a standard heavy, and should you not have an advantage? You have the better gun, more HP, higher bonuses and just plain more. That Proto heavy does have a significant advantage: the ADS does have a significant advantage over even the most expensive AVer, but for all of that advantage, a single AVer can drop them all the same. I know! I've been on both sides of that equation (albeit not even as expensive as you!) If a half invested AVer can take down ADSs, surely a fully invested AVer can. I don't want to say get good, but how are you approaching Swarm/ADS combat? Are you just launching at first sight? Do you wait and optimise your approach? Do you get behind it, wait til it gets lower for better shots? I still feel the Swarm has a low skill cap (ie, the difference between a poor Swarmer and a great Swarmer is not a large gap) but there are measures you can take to make your attacks more effective.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 328	Posted - 2014.06.22 16:37:00 - [63] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: My AV fit costs 150k. Unless your dropship costs 1.5 million its not 10 percent. I have invested sp into my suit, equipment guns and other skills i need. I am weak to any form of anti infantry in order to kill you. I will die more than you will trying to get a decent shot. It will be more expensive for me. And as for needing 3 people to kill you that is a farce. In a 16v16 match hqving 3 people out of the fit gives the team a large advantage. My AV fit (STD MinCom/ADV Swarm) costs 20,000 ISK, and while soloing a vehicle is difficult, it is not impossible for me. I realise not everyone runs Commandos, and that is fair, but even a single Swarmer is something for your average ADS pilot to be concerned about. Take a look at the other example: does your Proto heavy cost 4x that of a standard heavy, and should you not have an advantage? You have the better gun, more HP, higher bonuses and just plain more. That Proto heavy does have a significant advantage: the ADS does have a significant advantage over even the most expensive AVer, but for all of that advantage, a single AVer can drop them all the same. I know! I've been on both sides of that equation (albeit not even as expensive as you!) If a half invested AVer can take down ADSs, surely a fully invested AVer can. I don't want to say get good, but how are you approaching Swarm/ADS combat? Are you just launching at first sight? Do you wait and optimise your approach? Do you get behind it, wait til it gets lower for better shots? I still feel the Swarm has a low skill cap (ie, the difference between a poor Swarmer and a great Swarmer is not a large gap) but there are measures you can take to make your attacks more effective. Not all of us have an inherent 10% explosive damage because a suit bonus. If a dropship is near me i try and get a forge to hit it as my swarms are about to hit so it cant get away. The problem i have is that by the 3rd shot the dropship is out of range and can fly away from the 2nd swarm. Its the fact they can outrun swarms that annoys me. The amount of times i should have downed a ds and it outrun my swarms is beyond count. 25m range isnt gonna make a huge difference.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Proficiency V. 95	Posted - 2014.06.22 16:45:00 - [64] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: mattphi94 wrote: Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Everything Dies wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm still in favor of buffing range and nerfing damage on swarms I'd like to see a return to 400 meters or so for range and then give it a few weeks to see if damage needs to be reduced. Bad things tend to happen when more than one change is made a time. Vehicles would be Nonexistent then. 200 M would be a starting test, then possibly 250, but 400 is asking for swarms leaking from every supply depot on the map. You are right, 400 m does sound like a lot to me. Probably 200 to 250 would be a better option. Personaly having dropships get out of reach has been my main problem with them. I would say we need to leave the range alone but noticeably increase the missile velocity. Personally, guys that outrun my missiles frustrate me far more than guys tanking my damage. The guy trying to just tank the swarms will eventually get hammered (usually out of overconfidence) but the pilot that hits the jets and gets away scot free - not a fan of that. Another interesting thought might be to change the damage type of the missiles or provide variants that do. This is a very EVE-esque solution but might be worth exploring. You can't tank damage from swarms in a dropship anymore... the only viable way to avoid a swarmer is to use an afterburner. If a pilot misses the timing of activating their afterburner, they're down 500k isk, if they choose to hang around too long, which is only a few seconds. Python's now have greater durability against swarms, especially with a booster, but get knocked around quite severally, due to them being so light. Swarms are not a joke anymore. What sucks now is that 3-4 people are trying to get easy points off one measly dropship, as it's highly rewarding, and next to effortless with a lock on. Be thankful that you can farm points off of us pilots...
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 831	Posted - 2014.06.22 17:05:00 - [65] - Quote Jack Galen wrote: I pilot most of the time with an incubus (AV) or a grimsnes (infantry support). This is the bit I don't understand: Infantry, your suits and weapons cost about ten percent of the cost of an ADS, possibly twenty percent for all you protos, and that's for an ADV ADS, not proto. When you are having a hard time killing it, consider that; the pilot has invested huge amounts of SP and ISK, whereas a militia forge gun on a militia frame can end an ADS quite easily. I am actually very happy with AV at the moment - flying can be easy, unless the enemy work together (wait, what? :P) to take you down. When 2-3 infantry / a rail tank and a forge work together to take me out, I feel that I'm fair game. What I don't want to see are the return of the days where I lift off and suddenly get mullered by 7 groups of unrendered swarms, 2 forge guns and a rail installation within 5 seconds, every time. :/ One other idea: why can't it be a food chain? Infantry>Tanks>dropships>infantry for example? Aren't some match ups meant to be more one-sided than others? :) Because ISK and SP are terrible factors to balance around in an MMO FPS. There is a "food chain". Infantry > AV > Vehicles > Infantry Medium frame EHP is not medium
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 688	Posted - 2014.06.22 17:10:00 - [66] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: There have only been two changes to dropships and swarms. First was a bugfix for Incubus resistance to swarms, from 55/55 to 80/120. Second was making the proficiency skill on Swarms and Forge Guns work against vehicle armour. And you nerfed armor repairers, and rather then doing it in a way that balanced the problem of vehicles stacking multiple reps you just did a blanket nerf to all armor reps, now stacking multiple reps is the only smart way to fit a vehicle, with armor hardeners being useless and buffer barely worth the loss of rep power. Once again dropships get screwed on the alter of AV vs Tanks. this is exctly why we need the active modules and the corrisponding types of plates back, to be fiitted along with our passive modles
Jack Galen Vanguardian Remnant 3	Posted - 2014.06.22 22:19:00 - [67] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Jack Galen wrote: I pilot most of the time with an incubus (AV) or a grimsnes (infantry support). This is the bit I don't understand: Infantry, your suits and weapons cost about ten percent of the cost of an ADS, possibly twenty percent for all you protos, and that's for an ADV ADS, not proto. When you are having a hard time killing it, consider that; the pilot has invested huge amounts of SP and ISK, whereas a militia forge gun on a militia frame can end an ADS quite easily. I am actually very happy with AV at the moment - flying can be easy, unless the enemy work together (wait, what? :P) to take you down. When 2-3 infantry / a rail tank and a forge work together to take me out, I feel that I'm fair game. What I don't want to see are the return of the days where I lift off and suddenly get mullered by 7 groups of unrendered swarms, 2 forge guns and a rail installation within 5 seconds, every time. :/ One other idea: why can't it be a food chain? Infantry>Tanks>dropships>infantry for example? Aren't some match ups meant to be more one-sided than others? :) Because ISK and SP are terrible factors to balance around in an MMO FPS. There is a "food chain". Infantry > AV > Vehicles > Infantry If I may phrase it better: Even the cheapest ADS fit possible (not even an effective one) is quite vulnerable to AV, which can be made rather effective for much less. Swarms, quite rightly, are not just point and shoot weapons. They are the only tracking enabled weapon of DUST, and so (quite rightly so) if I may quote Judge, some skill must be employed as for when to fire and how to go about it. I have lost ships to swarms, but only when the swarms are in the right hands. Forge gun, however, is point and shoot. A very powerful point and shoot indeed.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Proficiency V. 96	Posted - 2014.06.22 23:01:00 - [68] - Quote Jack Galen wrote: medomai grey wrote: Jack Galen wrote: I pilot most of the time with an incubus (AV) or a grimsnes (infantry support). This is the bit I don't understand: Infantry, your suits and weapons cost about ten percent of the cost of an ADS, possibly twenty percent for all you protos, and that's for an ADV ADS, not proto. When you are having a hard time killing it, consider that; the pilot has invested huge amounts of SP and ISK, whereas a militia forge gun on a militia frame can end an ADS quite easily. I am actually very happy with AV at the moment - flying can be easy, unless the enemy work together (wait, what? :P) to take you down. When 2-3 infantry / a rail tank and a forge work together to take me out, I feel that I'm fair game. What I don't want to see are the return of the days where I lift off and suddenly get mullered by 7 groups of unrendered swarms, 2 forge guns and a rail installation within 5 seconds, every time. :/ One other idea: why can't it be a food chain? Infantry>Tanks>dropships>infantry for example? Aren't some match ups meant to be more one-sided than others? :) Because ISK and SP are terrible factors to balance around in an MMO FPS. There is a "food chain". Infantry > AV > Vehicles > Infantry If I may phrase it better: Even the cheapest ADS fit possible (not even an effective one) is quite vulnerable to AV, which can be made rather effective for much less. Swarms, quite rightly, are not just point and shoot weapons. They are the only tracking enabled weapon of DUST, and so (quite rightly so) if I may quote Judge, some skill must be employed as for when to fire and how to go about it. I have lost ships to swarms, but only when the swarms are in the right hands. Forge gun, however, is point and shoot. A very powerful point and shoot indeed. Forge guns are not simply point and shoot... they require timing and predictability to hit targets, especially with dropships. Swarms can use coordination, if available, but do not require any precise shooting whatsoever with lock-on capabilities. An example of a non-skillful weapon is the smart pistol from Titan Fall, which is merely a cheap weapon, and was initially ridiculously overpowered, as it did insane damage and locked-on to the head, causing death near instantly with the little time it needed to do so. You really can't convince me that a swarm launcher requires skill. The only skill that a user can have is a skill used with any other weapon, timing and predictability. The difference is that they do not require precise aim, and instead only require steady control of the cursor hovering over the correct target, which a completely inexperienced player could use, only has to release the trigger, and everything else is done for them, which dissolves any reasoning to the term "skillful".
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 335	Posted - 2014.06.22 23:17:00 - [69] - Quote [quote=Baal Omniscient Edit: Missile velocity would be good, but you don't want to overdo it. DS's should be able to get away with an afterburner, but not by straight up out-running them. Increasing them to just over a DS's afterburner top speed would let DS pilots out range them before they can catch up while not out-right out-running them. It's a shame there is nothing a DS can use as a countermeasure, that would make it a bit easier to balance...[/quote] Please no. That would literally require an AB on every single fit but otherwise would ensure 100% death. A dropship without one would never be able to make it away without dying, something they already struggle to do. Also now that the damage profile on armor dropships went from 55/55 to 80/120, what is the profile on shield dropships? If it is anything besides 80/120 then I cry foul, especially if it is lower.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2307	Posted - 2014.06.22 23:46:00 - [70] - Quote Texs Red wrote: Also now that the damage profile on armor dropships went from 55/55 to 80/120, what is the profile on shield dropships? If it is anything besides 80/120 then I cry foul, especially if it is lower. The damage profile is not 80/120. That's base efficiency. Quite different from shield and armour damage profiles. THe two ships are not balanced. The existing profile really hurts the shield ships. I point this out in the video I am releasing tomorrow Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion

ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2014.06.23 02:03:00 - [71] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Texs Red wrote: Also now that the damage profile on armor dropships went from 55/55 to 80/120, what is the profile on shield dropships? If it is anything besides 80/120 then I cry foul, especially if it is lower. The damage profile is not 80/120.The two ships are not balanced. The existing profile really hurts the shield ships. I point this out in the video I am releasing tomorrow. Swarms are too powerful against dropships in the Bravo build. We need a 70/70 base efficiency and a 80/110 profile. The minmatar commando is the main cause of this So how much more damage are they doing now, because im getting 3 shotted by swarms which im not use to.And im barely repping through damage now.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2308	Posted - 2014.06.23 09:16:00 - [72] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: So how much more damage are they doing now, because im getting 3 shotted by swarms which im not use to.And im barely repping through damage now. To give you an idea, my proto swarms on my minmatar commando will tear a 1157 hp hole in your shields in a single volley. And 1537 in your Armour. Against all shields a single clip will put out 3471 damage. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
JRleo jr Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 21	Posted - 2014.06.23 09:20:00 - [73] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: So how much more damage are they doing now, because im getting 3 shotted by swarms which im not use to.And im barely repping through damage now. To give you an idea, my proto swarms on my minmatar commando will tear a 1157 hp hole in your shields in a single volley. And 1537 in your Armour. Against all shields a single clip will put out 3471 damage. Are swarms back to being a little too powerful at proto?
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2308	Posted - 2014.06.23 09:35:00 - [74] - Quote all levels are a bit powerful against dropships. they need a slight tone done. I think a 70/70/80/110 might be too far, i'm still running models. Perhaps start with an 80/70/80/120 or even 70/70/100/120. There are a few options. The most balanced are based not on the raw data, but on the realistically available builds Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2897	Posted - 2014.06.23 10:52:00 - [75] - Quote Now I'm going to use my experience from before hotfix Alpha, so please be patient. However based on what Rattatai has said my experience is still just as valid. Before I took a 'Protest Break' I started become a medium frame AV specalist, which naturally of course meant I used the Swarm Launcher. Now at the time I began working out the best time of when to start firing my 4-round mag of swarms in order to achieve the most damage. You had to get them as they flew directly towards you, then maintain the volley as long as possible often being out in the open for extended periods of time. In the majority of cases I could destroy (and be accredited with the destruction) of a standard dropship 6/10 times provided every single volley hit and that the pilot wasn't skilled enough to maintain his momentum after being spiked. With Assault Dropships however this got worse only 2/10 would only die to a single well-postioned full on volley. Of which most would return in an attempt to hunt me down. So swarms against Dropships undoubtedly need a buff from a Infantry Standpoint. However in order to expand my vehicle destruction role I began speccing into assault dropships as well, now from that standpoint the story changes. As a pilot I would often be left flying for my life at the hands of swarm launcher, the first volley would almost always hit unannounced, you merely had a few seconds to recognize the sound. Of course as,soon as thenfirst one hit you had no choice but to bug out almost instantly escaping with but a narrow margin of your health. However between repping and afterburners I escaped on average 9/10 times with nothing more than my tail between my legs. While I'm not experienced enough with my turret to deal large amount of constant damage often coming within the last few on the scoreboard, the fact I can go entire matches undefire with dying seems a little too easy. So in short yes, I believe dropships currently are too survivable, but not by much and there are certainly things that can be done to help pilots as well. 1) Improve Swarm Launchers with greater acceleration and top speed, however also slightly take away there high tracking my increasing the turning circle. (If this can be done so it only comes into effect against aerial vehicles all the better. 2) Give pilots an early warning system, something that allows them to know when they are being spiked by enemy ground troops. For an example see ACE COMBAT, give a caution when you are being locked on or aimed at by a swarm launcher or forge gun and give a 'parking sensor' beep once a volley is fired at you. 3) Decrease the low-end acceleration of dropships, so they cannot just use afterburners to effectively teleport to the flight ceiling. For clarification the first 20 Kmph of acceleration should be slower than the rest of the acceleration, incidently this will also allow for finer control of dropships at lower speeds. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3301	Posted - 2014.06.23 12:06:00 - [76] - Quote lol people complaining that swarms take no skill but in reality they are the direct mirror to modern anti air weapons. Prime example is the stinger where you lock on and shot the missile. Sure there are countersystems to that but unfrotunately CCP decided no more client side updates which is basically saying a big "NO" to counter systems for aireal vehicles.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 328	Posted - 2014.06.23 13:33:00 - [77] - Quote the way people are going on is like a dropship should have the same survivability as a tank.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 328	Posted - 2014.06.23 13:36:00 - [78] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: all levels are a bit powerful against dropships. they need a slight tone done. I think a 70/70/80/110 might be too far, i'm still running models. Perhaps start with an 80/70/80/120 or even 70/70/100/120. There are a few options. The most balanced are based not on the raw data, but on the realistically available builds. One of the biggest issues is first mover. Because of the limits of the pilot view and the terrible rendering the first a pilot knows about swarms is when that first volley hits. We then have to react but by then the second volley is on the way. Most swarms get two shots in. That is my experience (recorded and documented) of being a swarmer and a pilot. Where we are now is 3 volley kills. With two volleys being an almost guaranteed number of hits this is just too much. If rendering was better, or we had lock on warnings, or swarmers were not able to hot and skip and maintain lock, or swarmers lost lock on damage then this might be okay. As it stands now they have too many strength against the dropships defensive weakness. use an afterburner and fly awy, as soon as you get hit activate and you cant be touched. dropships should not be able to sit in an area with near inpunity. the swarm launcher is fine and does not need a change, it already got nerfed once and because it can kill your dropship you want to nerf it again?
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2308	Posted - 2014.06.23 13:43:00 - [79] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: the way people are going on is like a dropship should have the same suitability as a tank. swarms hit dropships with the exact same damage profile as tanks. A proto swarm hits a tanks shields just as hard as a dropships shields. So we are hit as hard but have much less EHP. THis creates an issue of balance. Echo 1991 wrote: use an afterburner and fly away, as soon as you get hit activate and you cant be touched This is not how it works at all. As has been published and demonstrated many times. Swarms hit most times afterburner or not. You are wrong in this point. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 328	Posted - 2014.06.23 14:02:00 - [80] - Quote then you have to change the damage profile on LAVs. also if 2 swarms leave a python with only 300 armour dont you think that you should be putting more shields on your ship instead of damage mods? you must be able to fit more hp why not do that instead of complaining that you take too much damage? Also changing damage profiles because you take the same amount of damage and have less hp is silly, by that logic scouts have less hp than a heavy so should take less damage from guns. see the flaw in that? As for the afterburner thing. if you get hit and activate the afterburner the third swarm will not hit you, i know it wont, i have seen pilots do it.

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2898	Posted - 2014.06.23 14:02:00 - [81] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: the way people are going on is like a dropship should have the same survivability as a tank. If its a transport centric one such as logistics or standard then hell yeah it should have MORE survivability than a tank. A tank is a single man operable vehicle, it does not require more than 1 person to utilise it in order to be effective. A transport dropship however requires AT LEAST 3, and that is just to be a poor representation of a Helicopter Gunship, the main role of a dropship is to transport troops. Therefore you give more survivability because your not gonna convince 6 people to get into a flying steel coffin. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 328	Posted - 2014.06.23 14:05:00 - [82] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: the way people are going on is like a dropship should have the same survivability as a tank. If its a transport centric one such as logistics or standard then hell yeah it should have MORE survivability than a tank. A tank is a single man operable vehicle, it does not require more than 1 person to utilise it in order to be effective. A transport dropship however requires AT LEAST 3, and that is just to be a poor representation of a Helicopter Gunship, the main role of a dropship is to transport troops. Therefore you give more survivability because your not gonna convince 6 people to get into a flying steel coffin. troop transports are supposed to get to the LZ drop the troops off and get out of there. Not stay there for 5 minutes taking swarm after swarm and surviving.
Beld Errmon 1697	Posted - 2014.06.23 14:26:00 - [83] - Quote 2 good proto AVers can completely render my incubus useless now, and yet there are scrubs here still crying for more buffs, absolutely pathetic. Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2898	Posted - 2014.06.23 14:54:00 - [84] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: the way people are going on is like a dropship should have the same survivability as a tank. If its a transport centric one such as logistics or standard then hell yeah it should have MORE survivability than a tank. A tank is a single man operable vehicle, it does not require more than 1 person to utilise it in order to be effective. A transport dropship however requires AT LEAST 3, and that is just to be a poor representation of a Helicopter Gunship, the main role of a dropship is to transport troops. Therefore you give more survivability because your not gonna convince 6 people to get into a flying steel coffin. troop transports are supposed to get to the LZ drop the troops off and get out of there. Not stay there for 5 minutes taking swarm after swarm and surviving. No a logistics transport sticks around and provides infantry support. Futhermore how do you expect a dropship to get in, drop troops and get out if it can't reliably survive 2 magazines worth of swarms? Which is only marginally more than a tank. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3302	Posted - 2014.06.23 15:08:00 - [85] - Quote A dropship should never have more tanking capability then a tank. And if you are doing troop transport then tell your passangers to jump out at full speed if needed. Suits are called "dropsuits" and aireal vehicles are called "dropship" for a reason and we have aswell inertia dampeners so where is now the issue with troop transport? When you get into a hotzone use your shield hardener and you take very low damage and gives you enough time to deploy your squad to a location.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 495	Posted - 2014.06.23 16:25:00 - [86] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: also if 2 swarms leave a python with only 300 armour dont you think that you should be putting more shields on your ship instead of damage mods? you must be able to fit more hp why not do that instead of complaining that you take too much damage? My standard Python fit runs the following: Complex Heavy Extender Enhanced Afterburner Enhanced Shield Booster Complex PG Upgrade AT-1 Missile It runs at about 2800/2900 shields: three volleys of ADV+ Swarms will drop me. I can get to a theoretical maximum of around 3300 shields...but to do so would remove the Afterburner and leave me a sitting duck, allowing more Swarms to land overall, rendering the extra HP moot. ADSs should not be as tough as tanks, but our only defence, then, is speed and by merit of being the module that increases our speed to escape velocity, the Afterburner is king when it comes to ADS survivability. This, however, does not account for the fact that an ADS that is constantly running away is doing absolutely nothing to impact the course of the battle: the only possible action they can take is high speed deployment, which is useful but rarely needed more than once or twice a battle, or high speed attack runs, which are not particularly effective against anything. Echo 1991 wrote: As for the afterburner thing. if you get hit and activate the afterburner the third swarm will not hit you, i know it wont, i have seen pilots do it. Not true, quite simply. As a pilot, I have experienced being hit and not being hit by the third volley. It's a matter of inertia and speed: if the dropship is at a dead stop hovering when the first volley hits, the likelihood of the their volley hitting is high: if the dropship is swaying about or otherwise maintaining some form of motion, the chances of evading the third volley is relatively high: if the dropship is doing a fly by, you'll likely not connect with the third volley.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 495	Posted - 2014.06.23 16:35:00 - [87] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Now I'm going to use my experience from before hotfix Alpha, so please be patient. However based on what Rattatai has said my experience is still just as valid. [Snip] 1) Improve Swarm Launchers with greater acceleration and top speed, however also slightly take away there high tracking my increasing the turning circle. (If this can be done so it only comes into effect against aerial vehicles all the better. 2) Give pilots an early warning system, something that allows them to know when they are being spiked by enemy ground troops. For an example see ACE COMBAT, give a caution when you are being locked on or aimed at by a swarm launcher or forge gun and give a 'parking sensor' beep once a volley is fired at you. 3) Decrease the low-end acceleration of dropships, so they cannot just use afterburners to effectively teleport to the flight ceiling. For clarification the first 20 Kmph of acceleration should be slower than the rest of the acceleration, incidently this will also allow for finer control of dropships at lower speeds. Pre-Hotfix Alpha evidence is most certainly not relevant any longer. As an L3 MinCom/L3 Swarm user also, I know full well that I can solo an even vaguely incautious ADS. And please note that that is not a 10% damage buff, I am not a fully levelled MinCom. Quite simply, Bravo has made Swarmers much more potent. This is perfectly legitimate and reasonable. What is not is the issues with rendering. Invisible swarms are not only infuriating but incredibly unbalanced. I have no issues with the power of Swarms right now, the only thing I want is to actually see them when I'm looking right at them. Anecdote: flying my Incubus, testing the blasters with a side gunner. Both of us shooting at a Swarmer that my gunner called out as a target before it could launch: still got hit by two volleys without seeing any missiles...even though both me and my gunner were actively engaged in trying to shoot said Swarmer. 1) I could agree to that. Caveat rendering, obviously. 2) I could live without it, if rendering is fixed, but I wouldn't say no. I would accept this in line with a slightly Afterburner nerf. 3) Again, I can see this being reasonable. Caveat rendering, blah blah.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Proficiency V. 96	Posted - 2014.06.23 17:14:00 - [88] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: lol people complaining that swarms take no skill but in reality they are the direct mirror to modern anti air weapons. Prime example is the stinger where you lock on and shot the missile. Sure there are countersystems to that but unfrotunately CCP decided no more client side updates which is basically saying a big "NO" to counter systems for aireal vehicles. They are not a direct mirror to modern anti-air weapons. There are several real life factors that are not present in a video game. That one soldier has to carry that heavy weapon to wherever that vehicle is expected to be. You cannot replicate hours upon hours of exhaustion in a video game onto your character. An actual stinger would be far harder to aim than a mere swarm launcher, as your suit has mechanical joints assisting in lifting, running, and etc. You live only once... so if you mess up, or are unfortunate enough, that vehicle will still be flying around. The skill to using a stinger, is surviving long enough to use the damn thing, and having the energy to do it properly. You can not replicate this in Dust. An immortal clone with practically infinite resources and weapons to his disposal is child's play in comparison to a single human soldier who is running like hell to survive, and you can not regenerate instantly either, which should be obvious.
Fremder V1 Armed And Aimless 10	Posted - 2014.06.23 17:17:00 - [89] - Quote While tanks are basically immune to most infantry weapons, dropships are barely (or not at all) endangered by the few that do work. Like remotes, proximity mines, plasma cannons or AV grenades. For those who don't have a heavy suit with a forge or another vehicle at hand, swarmlaunchers are about the only tool to fight back. Trying to compare tanks with dropships, complaining about potentially loosing to the most maxed out swarm fit... or several people at once, seems mind-boggling. I imagine people wouldn't feel the need for that, if loosing a ship wasn't such a big deal. So as someone who doesn't use them: Maybe reducing their cost actually should be the first step to find a healthy compromise.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Proficiency V. 96	Posted - 2014.06.23 17:28:00 - [90] - Quote Fremder V1 wrote: While tanks are basically immune to most infantry weapons, dropships are barely (or not at all) endangered by the few that do work. Like remotes, proximity mines, plasma cannons or AV grenades. For those who don't have a heavy suit with a forge or another vehicle at hand, swarmlaunchers are about the only tool to fight back. Trying to compare tanks with dropships, complaining about potentially loosing to the most maxed out swarm fit... or several people at once, seems mind-boggling. I imagine people wouldn't feel the need for that, if loosing a ship wasn't such a big deal. So as someone who doesn't use them: Maybe reducing their cost actually should be the first step to find a healthy compromise. Reducing the cost would be amazing, but it simply does not fix the issue at hand. Swarms are a bit too powerful against dropships right now, especially the Incubus. A simple increase in resistances would suffice, but not quite to pre-Bravo values. Although a pilot may be skillfully invincible, they really can't do that much, yet infantry complains how they can not kill them whiie chasing them around the map farming points off of them. I as a forge gunner am perfectly content with 2500wp and not a single vehicle kill, in the instance that they take off or someone conveniently waits until they have no health and steal the kill from me. You still get a lot of isk and sp... some people are just greedy I suppose. My apologies to those who are not and have different reasoning behind this argument.

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2310	Posted - 2014.06.23 17:32:00 - [91] - Quote we have been here before. I will record and post some un edtited matches for an ADS point of view, I will do the same for swarms as I have a minmater commando maxed to the limit with swarms. Let me show you what it is like for both sides. As AV and Vehicle we need to work on this together so its fun for all of us. Neither side wants easy wins. Reading the posts in this thread I see people on both sides how want a fun game. So, lets pull back a little and try to reach the sweet spot where death makes you send a GG message to your killer. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1793	Posted - 2014.06.23 19:19:00 - [92] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Jack Galen wrote: I pilot most of the time with an incubus (AV) or a grimsnes (infantry support). This is the bit I don't understand: Infantry, your suits and weapons cost about ten percent of the cost of an ADS, possibly twenty percent for all you protos, and that's for an ADV ADS, not proto. When you are having a hard time killing it, consider that; the pilot has invested huge amounts of SP and ISK, whereas a militia forge gun on a militia frame can end an ADS quite easily. I am actually very happy with AV at the moment - flying can be easy, unless the enemy work together (wait, what? :P) to take you down. When 2-3 infantry / a rail tank and a forge work together to take me out, I feel that I'm fair game. What I don't want to see are the return of the days where I lift off and suddenly get mullered by 7 groups of unrendered swarms, 2 forge guns and a rail installation within 5 seconds, every time. :/ One other idea: why can't it be a food chain? Infantry>Tanks>dropships>infantry for example? Aren't some match ups meant to be more one-sided than others? :) My AV fit costs 150k. Unless your dropship costs 1.5 million its not 10 percent. I have invested sp into my suit, equipment guns and other skills i need. I am weak to any form of anti infantry in order to kill you. I will die more than you will trying to get a decent shot. It will be more expensive for me. And as for needing 3 people to kill you that is a farce. In a 16v16 match hqving 3 people out of the fit gives the team a large advantage. ^Was going to say pretty much this. Unless the whole other team is running basic fits, my AV fit's SMG is only going to keep me alive through a couple CQC engagements before they decide to gang up on me or I turn a corner on a heavy (or a fat taxi chases me down). All while trying to get a chance to fire a couple of volleys at you to scare you off of my teammates. It's not like I can sit on a hill and not be noticed by every RR shithead in the vicinity, and there isn't **** I can do about anyone with at least a GEK's range. Even HMG's can kill me before I can kill them with my SMG when they come lumbering my way out in the open because of the HMG's optimal being what it is. And as for price, at least half the time I loose 1+ suits (160,000ish ISK) before I ever even get the chance to fire on you because of the enemy's infantry. Cloaked scouts, HMG's, RE's, snipers, super-scanning Calscouts and RR roof campers might be funny little blips on your radar, but on mine they are ruining my day every single time I pull AV. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1793	Posted - 2014.06.23 19:31:00 - [93] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: My AV fit costs 150k. Unless your dropship costs 1.5 million its not 10 percent. I have invested sp into my suit, equipment guns and other skills i need. I am weak to any form of anti infantry in order to kill you. I will die more than you will trying to get a decent shot. It will be more expensive for me. And as for needing 3 people to kill you that is a farce. In a 16v16 match hqving 3 people out of the fit gives the team a large advantage. My AV fit (STD MinCom/ADV Swarm) costs 20,000 ISK, and while soloing a vehicle is difficult, it is not impossible for me. I realise not everyone runs Commandos, and that is fair, but even a single Swarmer is something for your average ADS pilot to be concerned about. Take a look at the other example: does your Proto heavy cost 4x that of a standard heavy, and should you not have an advantage? You have the better gun, more HP, higher bonuses and just plain more. That Proto heavy does have a significant advantage: the ADS does have a significant advantage over even the most expensive AVer, but for all of that advantage, a single AVer can drop them all the same. I know! I've been on both sides of that equation (albeit not even as expensive as you!) If a half invested AVer can take down ADSs, surely a fully invested AVer can. I don't want to say get good, but how are you approaching Swarm/ADS combat? Are you just launching at first sight? Do you wait and optimise your approach? Do you get behind it, wait til it gets lower for better shots? I still feel the Swarm has a low skill cap (ie, the difference between a poor Swarmer and a great Swarmer is not a large gap) but there are measures you can take to make your attacks more effective. Waiting gets you dead by infantry (see my last post) or looses you the chance as the DS moves elsewhere, leaving you in an very weak AV fitting, very likely miles away from a supply depot. Getting closer gets you dead by either the pilot or the infantry the pilot is trying to steal kills from. Yes, sometimes using strategy when the other team is terrible works wonderfully. But that only works about 30-40% of the time, the rest of the time you are throwing away suits. And when you are dropping 160,000isk per suit you don't typically want to just serve them to your opponents on a platter. THAT is swarm launcher 101. Been running proto swarms since Replication, been Prof. 5 since Uprising 1.0, and that's how swarms HAVE to be run right now. Back when it was just AR's it wasn't a big deal since HMG range was low, but now EVERYTHING has range, EVERYONE is cloaked, and EVERYONE is gunning for the easy kill with no anti-infantry light weapon. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Lynn Beck NoGameNoLife 1893	Posted - 2014.06.23 19:31:00 - [94] - Quote My AV fit is 230k... Although, i am a Commando, an i have a Boundless CR. If you dropshippers find it unreasonable that my extremely specialized suit is capable of killing you, or gasp at the very least deterring you, then do what every other vehicle squad does when they find me, push your Calscouts into my location, or just simply hit me with 2 missiles. I run BASE HP with regeneration mods. Don't pull the 'my ship costs more' card either, because Isk Isn't a Balancing Factor, which was used as a reasoning AGAINST dropping tank prices for the entirety of Uprising 1.0-1.6. Please, accept the fact you're not Godmode anymore, and take your deaths like a man(or woman). Geebus, i die to a shotgun scout after my 2nd swarm volley like 3/10 times i try and AV. General John Ripper -HAM(Yum) This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Non-Association Foster Care Office
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Proficiency V. 97	Posted - 2014.06.23 20:17:00 - [95] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: My AV fit is 230k... Although, i am a Commando, an i have a Boundless CR. If you dropshippers find it unreasonable that my extremely specialized suit is capable of killing you, or gasp at the very least deterring you, then do what every other vehicle squad does when they find me, push your Calscouts into my location, or just simply hit me with 2 missiles. I run BASE HP with regeneration mods. Don't pull the 'my ship costs more' card either, because Isk Isn't a Balancing Factor, which was used as a reasoning AGAINST dropping tank prices for the entirety of Uprising 1.0-1.6. Please, accept the fact you're not Godmode anymore, and take your deaths like a man(or woman). Geebus, i die to a shotgun scout after my 2nd swarm volley like 3/10 times i try and AV. Why are you running a 230k suit? A forge suit costs me only around 30k or less, and I can do just as well with a swarm fit of the same price. At least you have the option to use effective and cheap assets, unlike pilots, who are stuck with a 323k hull.
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 836	Posted - 2014.06.23 21:02:00 - [96] - Quote Why do people want to give my python more survivability? I mean, sure I hate having to fit heavy shield extenders meant for tanks on my ADS. But why in the Maker's name would you want to give me even more survivability? PS: You incubus pilots complaining that your ADS is too squishy with the corrected swarm damage efficiencies and heavy armor repair nerf have brought a smile to my face. On behalf of all python pilots: welcome to our world, a world were there are pretty explosions in the sky, and that explosion is you. Medium frame EHP is not medium
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2899	Posted - 2014.06.23 22:04:00 - [97] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Now I'm going to use my experience from before hotfix Alpha, so please be patient. However based on what Rattatai has said my experience is still just as valid. [Snip] 1) Improve Swarm Launchers with greater acceleration and top speed, however also slightly take away there high tracking my increasing the turning circle. (If this can be done so it only comes into effect against aerial vehicles all the better. 2) Give pilots an early warning system, something that allows them to know when they are being spiked by enemy ground troops. For an example see ACE COMBAT, give a caution when you are being locked on or aimed at by a swarm launcher or forge gun and give a 'parking sensor' beep once a volley is fired at you. 3) Decrease the low-end acceleration of dropships, so they cannot just use afterburners to effectively teleport to the flight ceiling. For clarification the first 20 Kmph of acceleration should be slower than the rest of the acceleration, incidently this will also allow for finer control of dropships at lower speeds. Pre-Hotfix Alpha evidence is most certainly not relevant any longer. As an L3 MinCom/L3 Swarm user also, I know full well that I can solo an even vaguely incautious ADS. And please note that that is not a 10% damage buff, I am not a fully levelled MinCom. Quite simply, Bravo has made Swarmers much more potent. This is perfectly legitimate and reasonable. What is not is the issues with rendering. Invisible swarms are not only infuriating but incredibly unbalanced. I have no issues with the power of Swarms right now, the only thing I want is to actually see them when I'm looking right at them. Anecdote: flying my Incubus, testing the blasters with a side gunner. Both of us shooting at a Swarmer that my gunner called out as a target before it could launch: still got hit by two volleys without seeing any missiles...even though both me and my gunner were actively engaged in trying to shoot said Swarmer. 1) I could agree to that. Caveat rendering, obviously. 2) I could live without it, if rendering is fixed, but I wouldn't say no. I would accept this in line with a slightly Afterburner nerf. 3) Again, I can see this being reasonable. Caveat rendering, blah blah. Well you will be glad to know I've been on recently, AV is getting better. However compared to 1.7 SL aren't any better, what it is different however is vehicle module nerfs that make AV weapons slightly stronger. The only other thing I might suggest is to increase fitting power on dropships so they can fit 2 heavy modules as opposed to one. Pair this with giving passive skills in the vehicle upgrades tree amd it will all be dandy. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 497	Posted - 2014.06.23 22:20:00 - [98] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Waiting gets you dead by infantry (see my last post) or looses you the chance as the DS moves elsewhere, leaving you in an very weak AV fitting, very likely miles away from a supply depot. Getting closer gets you dead by either the pilot or the infantry the pilot is trying to steal kills from. Yes, sometimes using strategy when the other team is terrible works wonderfully. But that only works about 30-40% of the time, the rest of the time you are throwing away suits. And when you are dropping 160,000isk per suit you don't typically want to just serve them to your opponents on a platter. THAT is swarm launcher 101. Been running proto swarms since Replication, been Prof. 5 since Uprising 1.0, and that's how swarms HAVE to be run right now. Back when it was just AR's it wasn't a big deal since HMG range was low, but now EVERYTHING has range, EVERYONE is cloaked, and EVERYONE is gunning for the easy kill with no anti-infantry light weapon. Right...so you're complaining about losing tons of ISK, when you can actually effectively perform AV duty with lower level AV weapons. An ADV Swarm can actually deter dropships and even semi incautious ones get shot down. You don't need to run 100% Proto 100% of the time to shoot something down. Just because you have chosen to endanger your expensive suits, doesn't mean that you have to.
Beld Errmon 1702	Posted - 2014.06.23 23:03:00 - [99] - Quote awww poor AV guys you can only defend yourself with a side arm your so hard done by, please tell me more about how hard life is for you while I ponder all the ways I lose dropships. Take off too quick hit RDV and die, take off get killed by RDV bringing in some scrubs LAV, get shot by own teams explosive weapons and crash into random nearby object and die... I could go on but I think a full list should be saved for its own amusing thread. Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2899	Posted - 2014.06.23 23:32:00 - [100] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: awww poor AV guys you can only defend yourself with a side arm your so hard done by, please tell me more about how hard life is for you while I ponder all the ways I lose dropships. Take off too quick hit RDV and die, take off get killed by RDV bringing in some scrubs LAV, get shot by own teams explosive weapons and crash into random nearby object and die... I could go on but I think a full list should be saved for its own amusing thread. 1) Don't take of so quickly 2) Don't take of so quickly 3) I'm not even mad, that's amazing Im not the greatest pilot in Dropship history but how you achieve 3 is beyond my comprehension. How are you so close that ground based explosives are causing you to crash? Or are you flying into Swarms and believe they shouldn't encroach on your airspace? Yes Dropshiping is expensive, mthat doesn't mean your don't die. We spent h8wever long having this talk with tankers, I shouldn't expect to have to have it with other dropship pilots as well. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!

Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 896	Posted - 2014.06.24 02:48:00 - [101] - Quote I think the problem dropship pilots are having have less to do with AV and more to do with prices and collision damage. The problem AV has now has less to do with dropships and more to do with infantry killing us. I am more or less happy with where we are at but I want cheaper dropships to eliminate the ISK argument. When both sides feel slightly cheated then it is a good sign things are close. Because, that's why.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 896	Posted - 2014.06.24 02:50:00 - [102] - Quote I should add that because AV is vulnerable to everything else while vehicles are immune to many things, any error in balance should favor AV. Because, that's why.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2014.06.24 02:54:00 - [103] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: I should add that because AV is vulnerable to everything else while vehicles are immune to many things, any error in balance should favor AV. Not when swarms 2 or 3 shot dropships its a no skill weapon that cant be avoided without flying 400 meters to escape them.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Proficiency V. 97	Posted - 2014.06.24 17:09:00 - [104] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: I think the problem dropship pilots are having have less to do with AV and more to do with prices and collision damage. The problem AV has now has less to do with dropships and more to do with infantry killing us. I am more or less happy with where we are at but I want cheaper dropships to eliminate the ISK argument. When both sides feel slightly cheated then it is a good sign things are close. And dropships pilots can't do anything when 2-3 swarms are covering the center of the map, which is likely where 2-3 objectives are in skirmish, or the center point in domination, making pilots useless, except for picking off snipere that are hopefully not way back into the redline. That's when you either wait for someone to deal with the swarmers, or have a squad that also does infantry to take them out. I do the same for whenever someone else is running some type of vehicle, whenever I'm running my sentinel, scout, commando, or logi. The most I can do as a pilot is recon, which I do all the time anyway, even if there is little AV or vehicle hinderance to where I can do some killing of my own.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 283	Posted - 2014.06.25 03:03:00 - [105] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Jack Galen wrote: I pilot most of the time with an incubus (AV) or a grimsnes (infantry support). This is the bit I don't understand: Infantry, your suits and weapons cost about ten percent of the cost of an ADS, possibly twenty percent for all you protos, and that's for an ADV ADS, not proto. When you are having a hard time killing it, consider that; the pilot has invested huge amounts of SP and ISK, whereas a militia forge gun on a militia frame can end an ADS quite easily. I am actually very happy with AV at the moment - flying can be easy, unless the enemy work together (wait, what? :P) to take you down. When 2-3 infantry / a rail tank and a forge work together to take me out, I feel that I'm fair game. What I don't want to see are the return of the days where I lift off and suddenly get mullered by 7 groups of unrendered swarms, 2 forge guns and a rail installation within 5 seconds, every time. :/ One other idea: why can't it be a food chain? Infantry>Tanks>dropships>infantry for example? Aren't some match ups meant to be more one-sided than others? :) My AV fit costs 150k. Unless your dropship costs 1.5 million its not 10 percent. I have invested sp into my suit, equipment guns and other skills i need. I am weak to any form of anti infantry in order to kill you. I will die more than you will trying to get a decent shot. It will be more expensive for me. And as for needing 3 people to kill you that is a farce. In a 16v16 match hqving 3 people out of the fit gives the team a large advantage. ^Was going to say pretty much this. Unless the whole other team is running basic fits, my AV fit's SMG is only going to keep me alive through a couple CQC engagements before they decide to gang up on me or I turn a corner on a heavy (or a fat taxi chases me down). All while trying to get a chance to fire a couple of volleys at you to scare you off of my teammates. It's not like I can sit on a hill and not be noticed by every RR shithead in the vicinity, and there isn't **** I can do about anyone with at least a GEK's range. Even HMG's can kill me before I can kill them with my SMG when they come lumbering my way out in the open because of the HMG's optimal being what it is. And as for price, at least half the time I loose 1+ suits (160,000ish ISK) before I ever even get the chance to fire on you because of the enemy's infantry. Cloaked scouts, HMG's, RE's, snipers, super-scanning Calscouts and RR roof campers might be funny little blips on your radar, but on mine they are ruining my day every single time I pull AV. This^ Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 283	Posted - 2014.06.25 03:13:00 - [106] - Quote Make swarm launcher range the same as dropship turret range (250m). Fixed. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1
Beld Errmon 1708	Posted - 2014.06.25 03:33:00 - [107] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Make swarm launcher range the same as dropship turret range (250m). Fixed. ok so long as your missiles disappear in mid air at the same range ours do, oh and seeming as we are evening things up I don't think you should be able to render our dropships till we come within 100m as well, only fair right. Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
Beld Errmon 1708	Posted - 2014.06.25 03:37:00 - [108] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: The dark cloud wrote: lol people complaining that swarms take no skill but in reality they are the direct mirror to modern anti air weapons. Prime example is the stinger where you lock on and shot the missile. Sure there are countersystems to that but unfrotunately CCP decided no more client side updates which is basically saying a big "NO" to counter systems for aireal vehicles. They are not a direct mirror to modern anti-air weapons. There are several real life factors that are not present in a video game. That one soldier has to carry that heavy weapon to wherever that vehicle is expected to be. You cannot replicate hours upon hours of exhaustion in a video game onto your character. An actual stinger would be far harder to aim than a mere swarm launcher, as your suit has mechanical joints assisting in lifting, running, and etc. You live only once... so if you mess up, or are unfortunate enough, that vehicle will still be flying around. The skill to using a stinger, is surviving long enough to use the damn thing, and having the energy to do it properly. You can not replicate this in Dust. An immortal clone with practically infinite resources and weapons to his disposal is child's play in comparison to a single human soldier who is running like hell to survive, and you can not regenerate instantly either, which should be obvious. comparing RL to video games is always a re.tarded direction for a thread to take, you get all the arm chair generals and bitter vets talking **** and linking wiki articles. Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender Proficiency V. 98	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:58:00 - [109] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: The dark cloud wrote: lol people complaining that swarms take no skill but in reality they are the direct mirror to modern anti air weapons. Prime example is the stinger where you lock on and shot the missile. Sure there are countersystems to that but unfrotunately CCP decided no more client side updates which is basically saying a big "NO" to counter systems for aireal vehicles. They are not a direct mirror to modern anti-air weapons. There are several real life factors that are not present in a video game. That one soldier has to carry that heavy weapon to wherever that vehicle is expected to be. You cannot replicate hours upon hours of exhaustion in a video game onto your character. An actual stinger would be far harder to aim than a mere swarm launcher, as your suit has mechanical joints assisting in lifting, running, and etc. You live only once... so if you mess up, or are unfortunate enough, that vehicle will still be flying around. The skill to using a stinger, is surviving long enough to use the damn thing, and having the energy to do it properly. You can not replicate this in Dust. An immortal clone with practically infinite resources and weapons to his disposal is child's play in comparison to a single human soldier who is running like hell to survive, and you can not regenerate instantly either, which should be obvious. comparing RL to video games is always a re.tarded direction for a thread to take, you get all the arm chair generals and bitter vets talking **** and linking wiki articles. That was the point I was making, that comparing swarm launchers to current day real life AV weapons was ridiculous, and that it shouldn't have any major effect to the thread and its discussion. There are exceptions that can actually benefit certain topics, but the majority of which simply do not contribute anything other than adding an unnecessary comment and clouding the topic in useless information...
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 291	Posted - 2014.06.25 06:16:00 - [110] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: I should add that because AV is vulnerable to everything else while vehicles are immune to many things, any error in balance should favor AV. Not when swarms 2 or 3 shot dropships its a no skill weapon that cant be avoided without flying 400 meters to escape them. You completely missed his point here. A dropship pilot has to worry about swarms, forge guns, and heavy turrets. An AV player still has to worry about forge guns and turrets (of all sizes) in addition to shotguns, rifles, (the users of which may be cloaked) HMGs, mass drivers, snipers, grenades, remote explosives, orbital bombardments, etc. Pilots are vulnerable to AV. AV players are vulnerable to everything. Swarms may be a "no-skill" weapon, but so are militia assault rifles, and there are a lot more of those out there than there are swarm launchers, and they kill us a lot faster. Dropships are indeed an expensive asset to put at risk, but if it manages to get off the ground it is in nowhere near the amount of danger as an infantry player packing an AV weapon. Just because everyone can see your dropship doesn't mean everyone can hit it; an infantry player who gets spotted by a red will take fire almost every time. I would like to see dropship prices reduced to bring them more in line with HAVs; lowering the isk hurdle to get into them would encourage more people to try them out, which means more people will get good enough with them to fly them regularly. More dropships in the air creates more engagements between AV and dropships, which gives CCP and the playerbase more data on what needs to be tweaked for balance. Oh, and it won't cost you an arm and a leg to replace if I shoot you down.

Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1800	Posted - 2014.06.25 06:47:00 - [111] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Waiting gets you dead by infantry (see my last post) or looses you the chance as the DS moves elsewhere, leaving you in an very weak AV fitting, very likely miles away from a supply depot. Getting closer gets you dead by either the pilot or the infantry the pilot is trying to steal kills from. Yes, sometimes using strategy when the other team is terrible works wonderfully. But that only works about 30-40% of the time, the rest of the time you are throwing away suits. And when you are dropping 160,000isk per suit you don't typically want to just serve them to your opponents on a platter. THAT is swarm launcher 101. Been running proto swarms since Replication, been Prof. 5 since Uprising 1.0, and that's how swarms HAVE to be run right now. Back when it was just AR's it wasn't a big deal since HMG range was low, but now EVERYTHING has range, EVERYONE is cloaked, and EVERYONE is gunning for the easy kill with no anti-infantry light weapon. Right...so you're complaining about losing tons of ISK, when you can actually effectively perform AV duty with lower level AV weapons. An ADV Swarm can actually deter dropships and even semi incautious ones get shot down. You don't need to run 100% Proto 100% of the time to shoot something down. Just because you have chosen to endanger your expensive suits, doesn't mean that you have to. Yes.... and YOU can run a MLT DS with MLT rail or missile turrets with good gunners and still 3 shots just about every suit in the game, but you choose not to. Killing a vehicle as quickly as possible increases my survivability as much if not more than my suit and modules, not only because it gives me less time being shot at by the vehicle but also because I can focus on the infantry instead of staring at a vehicle. Same goes the other way around, so suck it up. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1800	Posted - 2014.06.25 07:01:00 - [112] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Make swarm launcher range the same as dropship turret range (250m). Fixed. ok so long as your missiles disappear in mid air at the same range ours do, oh and seeming as we are evening things up I don't think you should be able to render our dropships till we come within 100m as well, only fair right. As long as our missiles do as much damage and travel as fast as yours (and fly straight like yours), you've got a deal big boy. I'll even go full dumbfire if you like, it's not like we have the splash radius to do ** against infantry with them anyway. I'm all for fairness, bring it hotshot. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569** Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1800	Posted - 2014.06.25 07:17:00 - [113] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: awww poor AV guys you can only defend yourself with a side arm your so hard done by, please tell me more about how hard life is for you while I ponder all the ways I lose dropships. Ok. Beld Errmon wrote: Take off too quick hit RDV and die... LOLOL GIT GUD, LEARN TO FLY Beld Errmon wrote: ...take off get killed by RDV bringing in some scrubs LAV... If you haven't learned to call in your DS away from the scrubs yet.... who's to blame for that? Oh, right, you. L2DROPSHIP Beld Errmon wrote: ...get shot by own teams explosive weapons and crash into random nearby object and die... #SHITHAPPENS Some times I spawn a protosuit and some scrub ADS pilot's ADS or some scrub tanker's tank drops on my head as I spawn in, you don't here me on the forums bitchin' about it. Beld Errmon wrote: ...I could go on but I think a full list should be saved for its own amusing thread. Lemme tell ya bro, I'm rolling already over the pitiful ways you loose your ** already, can't wait to see the rest. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569** Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1800	Posted - 2014.06.25 07:34:00 - [114] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: I should add that because AV is vulnerable to everything else while vehicles are immune to many things, any error in balance should favor AV. Not when swarms 2 or 3 shot dropships its a no skill weapon that cant be avoided without flying 400 meters to escape them. Or going behind a hill. Or building. Or oil drum. Or pipes. Or tower. Or wall. Should I go on? Prolly not. All of which puts us in a situation where our location is pinpointed to enemy infantry and vehicles by our smoke trails while you are nestled safely behind cover, recovering your health (in most cases) in less than 10 seconds. And if we AREN'T being perused by infantry after firing of a giant 6-flare flaregun round into the air and we decide to try to close in on you, we have to further expose ourselves to the other team's infantry. And just because the swarm requires no skill to kill the scrubbiest of vehicle pilots doesn't mean **, the same can be said of any weapon in the game where it concerns infantry. A terrible player in full proto vs a good player in a starterfit doesn't stand a chance, same should go for V vs AV. Swarming effectively against GOOD players takes tactics, experience, determination, quick thinking and massive amounts of situational awareness. It may not take the "skill" people use to point their scope at someone and hold down R1 while wiggling back and forth until one of them is dead, but it takes skill all the same. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569** Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1396	Posted - 2014.06.25 07:38:00 - [115] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: I should add that because AV is vulnerable to everything else while vehicles are immune to many things, any error in balance should favor AV. Not when swarms 2 or 3 shot dropships its a no skill weapon that cant be avoided without flying 400 meters to escape them. Or going behind a hill. Or building. Or oil drum. Or pipes. Or tower. Or wall. Should I go on? Prolly not. All of which puts us in a situation where our location is pinpointed to enemy infantry and vehicles by our smoke trails while you are nestled safely behind cover, recovering your health (in most cases) in less than 10 seconds. And if we AREN'T being perused by infantry after firing of a giant 6-flare flaregun round into the air and we decide to try to close in on you, we have to further expose ourselves to the other team's infantry. And just because the swarm requires no skill to kill the scrubbiest of vehicle pilots doesn't mean ****, the same can be said of any weapon in the game where it concerns infantry. A terrible player in full proto vs a good player in a starterfit doesn't stand a chance, same should go for V vs AV. Swarming effectively against GOOD players takes tactics, experience, determination, quick thinking and massive amounts of situational awareness. It may not take the "skill" people use to point their scope at someone and hold down R1 while wiggling back and forth until one of them is dead, but it takes skill all the same. A. Swarms still don't render. B. Damage indicator still doesn't properly register the direction of damage C. Swarms will follow you behind a wall. Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1800	Posted - 2014.06.25 08:03:00 - [116] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: I should add that because AV is vulnerable to everything else while vehicles are immune to many things, any error in balance should favor AV. Not when swarms 2 or 3 shot dropships its a no skill weapon that cant be avoided without flying 400 meters to escape them. Or going behind a hill. Or building. Or oil drum. Or pipes. Or tower. Or wall. Should I go on? Prolly not. All of which puts us in a situation where our location is pinpointed to enemy infantry and vehicles by our smoke trails while you are nestled safely behind cover, recovering your health (in most cases) in less than 10 seconds. And if we AREN'T being perused by infantry after firing of a giant 6-flare flaregun round into the air and we decide to try to close in on you, we have to further expose ourselves to the other team's infantry. And just because the swarm requires no skill to kill the scrubbiest of vehicle pilots doesn't mean **, the same can be said of any weapon in the game where it concerns infantry. A terrible player in full proto vs a good player in a starterfit doesn't stand a chance, same should go for V vs AV. Swarming effectively against GOOD players takes tactics, experience, determination, quick thinking and massive amounts of situational awareness. It may not take the "skill" people use to point their scope at someone and hold down R1 while wiggling back and forth until one of them is dead, but it takes skill all the same. A. Swarms still don't render. B. Damage indicator still doesn't properly register the direction of damage C. Swarms will follow you behind a wall. A. Swarms can be outran. After the first volley hits you, since you know more are likely coming, you take flight and recover. Like I do when an ADS starts blasting me from above while fighting infantry. If you stick around and chance getting hit by MORE unrendered swarms, that's not on us but on you. I would love for you to see them coming so this excuse could be put to bed, but since that's likely never going to happen, you might want to play it safe when you have the opportunity to. Is it fun hiding and recovering after getting blasted? No. Guess what? It's not for me either, especially when there's a whole team between me and the supply depot I need to reach in order to fight back against you. B. See A. C. Swarms, if they have reached a proper altitude or have gotten close enough to you, will follow you behind a wall. If they are not at a high enough altitude to clear said wall when you drop behind it, or if you pass behind a tower before they get too close, they will not follow you behind the wall. Which is why you should, once again, see A. You vehicle pilots wanted us to scare you off, well now you can consider yourselves vulnerable enough to be scared. Edit: Not saying you in particular said that, just expressing the overwhelming sentiment given off by most of the vehicle community. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569** Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Beld Errmon 1710	Posted - 2014.06.25 11:08:00 - [117] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: LOLOL GIT GUD, LEARN TO FLY oh man I'm totally burnt now, A guy who doesn't pilot an ADS telling one to git gud, I'll just have to salve my wounds with the fact that i've nailed you a number of times in game and you basically just laid their like a 2 dollar ***** while I flew away laughing, gg scrub. As for your comment about "going dumbfire boy" if you could actually use predictive aim to kill a dropship you'd use the far superior forge gun rather than a scrub launcher. Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 905	Posted - 2014.06.25 12:37:00 - [118] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Make swarm launcher range the same as dropship turret range (250m). Fixed. ok so long as your missiles disappear in mid air at the same range ours do, oh and seeming as we are evening things up I don't think you should be able to render our dropships till we come within 100m as well, only fair right. Your missiles aren't visible at all nor can we outrun them and our swarms make us visible from much further away than 100 meters and we are vulnerable to every infantryman on the ground. Sorry it is inconvenient now to hover over us and rain destruction but it is hardly unfair. Because, that's why.
Baal Omniscient Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 1812	Posted - 2014.06.25 15:19:00 - [119] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: LOLOL GIT GUD, LEARN TO FLY oh man I'm totally burnt now, A guy who doesn't pilot an ADS telling one to git gud, I'll just have to salve my wounds with the fact that i've nailed you a number of times in game and you basically just laid their like a 2 dollar *** while I flew away laughing, gg scrub. As for your comment about "going dumbfire boy" if you could actually use predictive aim to kill a dropship you'd use the far superior forge gun rather than a scrub launcher. 1. First off, let me say kudos to you. You managed to kill a 600eHP Minassault with an ADS. You must be so proud you're capable of landing 2 shots on the same guy consecutively. Also, who are you? I really have no clue... 2. Every idiot who's flown an ADS knows if you immediately take off, your propulsion has a very good chance of shooting you straight up into the RDV that just dropped your ride unless you get lucky and it's one of the quick-vanishing ones. If you immediately afterburner up, you're pretty much guaranteed to hit it. Oh, but you knew that. Which is why that never happens to you. ...oh wait.... 3. I've been flying dropships since Replication, and I do ADS. With MLT missiles and basic modules because I feel no need to take anything higher at this point. AND still manage to keep it alive through at least 40% of the matches I take it into. Which, by the sound of you're bitchin', sounds like far more than you manage with probably a lot more SP into it than I do. Shame if that's the case, I certainly HOPE you don't loose ADS's so often to that BS that you loose them to that crap alone more than 60% of the time.... Hell, if it's even 10% of matches that's sad. Need a hug bro? 4. If I didn't become a slow-moving target in the process, I definitely would. I despise fat suits. They cannot strafe with any zeal unless you kb/m (I do not kb/m) and they drag ass everywhere. I Minmatar Assault. When the last respec came out, the only AV weapon for non-heavy suits was the swarm. So I swarm. Also, the forge IS superior. In rep-interruption, in DPS, in alpha damage, in everything. I don't go with what's OP or with what works best, I go with what can go on my suit the best. Don't use RR's, don't use Cal/Gal scouts, never had a Callogi or Gallogi, I don't spec tanks (and haven't since Chromosome) and when the TAR/flaylock/ScR fads happened, I stuck with my GEK awaiting my ACR. Side note: You need to learn to read too, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said "boy". I said "big boy". Totally different connotation. Side note 2: I love ADS pilots, I just got through sending Dust Fiend 50 million isk because he went broke from the rail spam before the rails got nerfed. (I made him promise I get to 1v1 him in a corner of a map if we end up on opposite sides ) You are having an ignorant attitude and acting holier-than-thou towards an entire playstyle that has been in this game longer than most people still playing this game have been here. You dis my playstyle, you dis the playstyle of the people who worked on this game before you ever got here, and you dis the playstyle of the people who pushed just as hard as the vehicle pilots for the swarms to get nerfed in the first place (ya know, the swarm community). So as far as I'm concerned, you can right the off. Get good or get out. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569** Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0


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