DUST Search - Swarms vs Dropships

Monkey MAC wrote:

Now I'm going to use my experience from before hotfix Alpha, so please be patient.
However based on what Rattatai has said my experience is still just as valid.

[Snip]

1) Improve Swarm Launchers with greater acceleration and top speed, however also slightly take away there high tracking my increasing the turning circle. (If this can be done so it only comes into effect against aerial vehicles all the better.

2) Give pilots an early warning system, something that allows them to know when they are being spiked by enemy ground troops. For an example see ACE COMBAT, give a caution when you are being locked on or aimed at by a swarm launcher or forge gun and give a 'parking sensor' beep once a volley is fired at you.

3) Decrease the low-end acceleration of dropships, so they cannot just use afterburners to effectively teleport to the flight ceiling. For clarification the first 20 Kmph of acceleration should be slower than the rest of the acceleration, incidently this will also allow for finer control of dropships at lower speeds.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 491	Posted - 2014.06.22 14:39:00 - [1] - Quote This is entirely anecdotal, but I want to display what I've been seeing from Bravo, as both an infantry player and an ADS pilot. Some quick background: I am an L4 Python/L3 Incubus, with all modules unlocked up to prototype and with a sprinkling of fitting skills; I am an L3 Minmatar Commando, with L3 Swarms and L3 Damage Mods. I spent several games of Domination yesterday fighting alongside my friend (CalCom L5; Swarms Prof 3; DMods L3) and we destroyed a whole heap of HAVs and ADSs. Single handedly in one game of Domination, I killed three Incubi, two Grimsnes/Gorgons and continually held those Incubus pilots to high speed strafing runs against our uplinks because they could not hover. Inversely, I have also spent several games performing harassment and denial duty in my Python (as well as a lot of anti air duty in my Incubus!) where, if unchallenged, I was able to provide significant close air support, blunting infantry advances or scattering groups. But when presented with AV, I was forced to retreat and perform high speed passes to locate and destroy the threats, or otherwise coordinate with my team to neutralise them, allowing me to resume operations. I lost quite a lot of dropships to different AV: I lost several to those last few Swarms hitting me before I reach escape velocity; I lost several to accurate Forge Gunners. But out and out, Swarms were incredibly dangerous, even when I knee full well to respect them. Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that, as is, Swarms are very likely to kill an even vaguely overconfident pilot while the twitchy, aware pilot will still have a good likelihood of losing a dropship. Forge Guns are equally effective, but their range/accuracy means they have to deal with a whole different box of frogs. So, in my opinion, Swarms are in a healthy place with regards to ADSs and vice versa. I'd like to see Assault Swarm ?Launchers be the slightly faster/longer ranged version, but as both an ADS pilot and a Swarm user, I'd be hesitant about just how much more speed/range we'd be adding.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 491	Posted - 2014.06.22 14:49:00 - [2] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: My AV fit costs 150k. Unless your dropship costs 1.5 million its not 10 percent. I have invested sp into my suit, equipment guns and other skills i need. I am weak to any form of anti infantry in order to kill you. I will die more than you will trying to get a decent shot. It will be more expensive for me. And as for needing 3 people to kill you that is a farce. In a 16v16 match hqving 3 people out of the fit gives the team a large advantage. My AV fit (STD MinCom/ADV Swarm) costs 20,000 ISK, and while soloing a vehicle is difficult, it is not impossible for me. I realise not everyone runs Commandos, and that is fair, but even a single Swarmer is something for your average ADS pilot to be concerned about. Take a look at the other example: does your Proto heavy cost 4x that of a standard heavy, and should you not have an advantage? You have the better gun, more HP, higher bonuses and just plain more. That Proto heavy does have a significant advantage: the ADS does have a significant advantage over even the most expensive AVer, but for all of that advantage, a single AVer can drop them all the same. I know! I've been on both sides of that equation (albeit not even as expensive as you!) If a half invested AVer can take down ADSs, surely a fully invested AVer can. I don't want to say get good, but how are you approaching Swarm/ADS combat? Are you just launching at first sight? Do you wait and optimise your approach? Do you get behind it, wait til it gets lower for better shots? I still feel the Swarm has a low skill cap (ie, the difference between a poor Swarmer and a great Swarmer is not a large gap) but there are measures you can take to make your attacks more effective.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 495	Posted - 2014.06.23 16:25:00 - [3] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: also if 2 swarms leave a python with only 300 armour dont you think that you should be putting more shields on your ship instead of damage mods? you must be able to fit more hp why not do that instead of complaining that you take too much damage? My standard Python fit runs the following: Complex Heavy Extender Enhanced Afterburner Enhanced Shield Booster Complex PG Upgrade AT-1 Missile It runs at about 2800/2900 shields: three volleys of ADV+ Swarms will drop me. I can get to a theoretical maximum of around 3300 shields...but to do so would remove the Afterburner and leave me a sitting duck, allowing more Swarms to land overall, rendering the extra HP moot. ADSs should not be as tough as tanks, but our only defence, then, is speed and by merit of being the module that increases our speed to escape velocity, the Afterburner is king when it comes to ADS survivability. This, however, does not account for the fact that an ADS that is constantly running away is doing absolutely nothing to impact the course of the battle: the only possible action they can take is high speed deployment, which is useful but rarely needed more than once or twice a battle, or high speed attack runs, which are not particularly effective against anything. Echo 1991 wrote: As for the afterburner thing. if you get hit and activate the afterburner the third swarm will not hit you, i know it wont, i have seen pilots do it. Not true, quite simply. As a pilot, I have experienced being hit and not being hit by the third volley. It's a matter of inertia and speed: if the dropship is at a dead stop hovering when the first volley hits, the likelihood of the their volley hitting is high: if the dropship is swaying about or otherwise maintaining some form of motion, the chances of evading the third volley is relatively high: if the dropship is doing a fly by, you'll likely not connect with the third volley.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 495	Posted - 2014.06.23 16:35:00 - [4] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Now I'm going to use my experience from before hotfix Alpha, so please be patient. However based on what Rattatai has said my experience is still just as valid. [Snip] 1) Improve Swarm Launchers with greater acceleration and top speed, however also slightly take away there high tracking my increasing the turning circle. (If this can be done so it only comes into effect against aerial vehicles all the better. 2) Give pilots an early warning system, something that allows them to know when they are being spiked by enemy ground troops. For an example see ACE COMBAT, give a caution when you are being locked on or aimed at by a swarm launcher or forge gun and give a 'parking sensor' beep once a volley is fired at you. 3) Decrease the low-end acceleration of dropships, so they cannot just use afterburners to effectively teleport to the flight ceiling. For clarification the first 20 Kmph of acceleration should be slower than the rest of the acceleration, incidently this will also allow for finer control of dropships at lower speeds. Pre-Hotfix Alpha evidence is most certainly not relevant any longer. As an L3 MinCom/L3 Swarm user also, I know full well that I can solo an even vaguely incautious ADS. And please note that that is not a 10% damage buff, I am not a fully levelled MinCom. Quite simply, Bravo has made Swarmers much more potent. This is perfectly legitimate and reasonable. What is not is the issues with rendering. Invisible swarms are not only infuriating but incredibly unbalanced. I have no issues with the power of Swarms right now, the only thing I want is to actually see them when I'm looking right at them. Anecdote: flying my Incubus, testing the blasters with a side gunner. Both of us shooting at a Swarmer that my gunner called out as a target before it could launch: still got hit by two volleys without seeing any missiles...even though both me and my gunner were actively engaged in trying to shoot said Swarmer. 1) I could agree to that. Caveat rendering, obviously. 2) I could live without it, if rendering is fixed, but I wouldn't say no. I would accept this in line with a slightly Afterburner nerf. 3) Again, I can see this being reasonable. Caveat rendering, blah blah.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 497	Posted - 2014.06.23 22:20:00 - [5] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Waiting gets you dead by infantry (see my last post) or looses you the chance as the DS moves elsewhere, leaving you in an very weak AV fitting, very likely miles away from a supply depot. Getting closer gets you dead by either the pilot or the infantry the pilot is trying to steal kills from. Yes, sometimes using strategy when the other team is terrible works wonderfully. But that only works about 30-40% of the time, the rest of the time you are throwing away suits. And when you are dropping 160,000isk per suit you don't typically want to just serve them to your opponents on a platter. THAT is swarm launcher 101. Been running proto swarms since Replication, been Prof. 5 since Uprising 1.0, and that's how swarms HAVE to be run right now. Back when it was just AR's it wasn't a big deal since HMG range was low, but now EVERYTHING has range, EVERYONE is cloaked, and EVERYONE is gunning for the easy kill with no anti-infantry light weapon. Right...so you're complaining about losing tons of ISK, when you can actually effectively perform AV duty with lower level AV weapons. An ADV Swarm can actually deter dropships and even semi incautious ones get shot down. You don't need to run 100% Proto 100% of the time to shoot something down. Just because you have chosen to endanger your expensive suits, doesn't mean that you have to.