If Python or Incubus are now getting crashed in 3 volleys (without bumping into stuff) from a single source, then yes I think we very much need to fix. That's pretty much no warning at all.

I crashed a wounded Gorgon in 3 volleys earlier today, but I've yet to square off with a healthy or higher end bird. I'll play more later. In the mean time, what are you specific observations? How many volleys are you tanking and what bird are you flying?

- Pro(5) Swarmer

I'd like to see a return to 400 meters or so for range and then give it a few weeks to see if damage needs to be reduced. Bad things tend to happen when more than one change is made a time.

There have only been two changes to dropships and swarms.

First was a bugfix for Incubus resistance to swarms, from 55/55 to 80/120. Second was making the proficiency skill on Swarms and Forge Guns work against vehicle armour.

Honestly, dropships needed a little more fragility. I've been on so many teams where the enemy had a dropship or two just loitering, shooting people then running away as the swarms started to respawn. They'd get pegged a few times, run off, repair, fly back once the swarms were replaced with rifles and the cycle would start all over again. You just couldn't kill them without vehicle support and even then, only HAV support cause LAV turrets are exposed enough that the gunner is easily picked off. This was a needed change, dropships need to know that ground troops ARE a threat and not ants to be stepped on.

Vehicles would be Nonexistent then. 200 M would be a starting test, then possibly 250, but 400 is asking for swarms leaking from every supply depot on the map.

I'm not the only one who thinks they're too powerful right now.
Swarms did need a buff, tanks needed to get nerfed, but dropships are always in the middle... How do we deal with this?

I thought the proficiency change came in the patch after swarm lock on range & forge gun range was reduced(this is when drop ships got out of hand)

If pilots are now afraid of my Proto Min Commando wielding Proto Swarms and dual DMG mods, then I think light AV is back on track.

You are right, 400 m does sound like a lot to me. Probably 200 to 250 would be a better option. Personaly having dropships get out of reach has been my main problem with them.

I would say we need to leave the range alone but noticeably increase the missile velocity. Personally, guys that outrun my missiles frustrate me far more than guys tanking my damage. The guy trying to just tank the swarms will eventually get hammered (usually out of overconfidence) but the pilot that hits the jets and gets away scot free - not a fan of that.

Another interesting thought might be to change the damage type of the missiles or provide variants that do. This is a very EVE-esque solution but might be worth exploring.

I think swarms should at least have the range of the small rail turret (250m). Kinda stupid a DS gunner can hit me when I can't hit it.

Edit: Missile velocity would be good, but you don't want to overdo it. DS's should be able to get away with an afterburner, but not by straight up out-running them. Increasing them to just over a DS's afterburner top speed would let DS pilots out range them before they can catch up while not out-right out-running them. It's a shame there is nothing a DS can use as a countermeasure, that would make it a bit easier to balance...

Good point, Baal.

I think if you somewhat equalized the small turret ranges and swarms that might work pretty well. I don't know if I would go quite to 250 though. If a guy nails me from that far away while i'm moving i think he should be rewarded.

Your missile velocity comment is exactly what i'm thinking. The ABs versus missile velocity should basically set up the scenario that ABs are used to get out of lock range very quickly but not out run the missiles in flight.

One of the interesting things about slow missile speed is that if you engage a DS or HAV at range you can have a second volley on the way before the first even hits and a third starting to lock. If you increase missile speed you are better assured first strike but a savvy pilot might actually have more reaction time to deal with follow on volleys.

Technically it also affects Mass Drivers as well, but I don't think anyone uses them against dropships.

There is no way an increase in range or speed can happen without completely destroying swarm vs drop ship balance. 175 meters seems an odd number. why not 180 or 170. or a neat 200.

You need to ask your selves why you want to add 15m so you get 200m range. Why is it? The main reason is that then dropships who in most battles are out of range would be just in range. Fine. But now ask yourselves why it is that they are just out of range?

The answer to those questions and the seemingly random 175m lock range is map design and render distance. I have been over this a few times, and demonstrated it in video form many times. Infantry normally do not render until the are 50m away. That gives you 125m to see and hear me coming and shoot at me before I can even see you.

Now go look at the maps. 175m range was chosen for a reason. It stops you sitting at one objective and shooting another, and also from sitting in the redline and shooting the objective. Even now, say on Iron Delta, you can sit on the redline and hit dropships over the domination objective.

Any more range than 175m will bring back redline swarming. Any more than 175m will bring back swarms sitting in safety at a held objective just spamming shots at the other objectives.

Increasing missile speed is also a short sighted suggestion. Why is is do you think that dropships always run away? We have no choice. We cannot fit enough tank to survive current AV. The only option is to run. You are missing the cause and effect here. We run because swarms are too fast and too strong to absorb due to the first mover advantage.

The cause of dropship speed is your AV. We cannot see you. You always get the first shot in. You are invisible. Forges are invisible and the shots incredibly hard to track back to source. We have a tiny amount to none of cover. You are able to hide behind a wall but I cant. Speed is my wall.

So no. Speed and range changes are not the solution. They are a return to the broken mechanics we have been trying to fix for over a year.

Yes, that's correct. However, there was a bug we just fixed that was preventing it from applying.

Technically it also affects Mass Drivers as well, but I don't think anyone uses them against dropships.

But you're not against a Assault Swarm, havin -10% damage and +20%(35 meter) lock range swarm, with +10% speed? As usual, arbitrary numbers at best, but some Ads Pilots can hit you from 180m with impunity with Xt's or even a Rail if they're THAT godly.

Certainly you're not against Swarmers getting an ability to specialize into countering finicky DS pilots with a chaser type Swarm?

Edit: i understand where you're coming from, but this game relies entirely on Isk Destruction. If you live all match 'playing by the rules' then power to ya, but it's not balanced (EvE wise) when simply following the rules deems you invulnerable.

Yes, pilots deserve to have an opportunity to keep their ship, no they shouldn't be expected to never lose it, all by following a 'guidebook' telling them exactly when to leave. It should be a hell of a lot more mixed up than thst, giving AV a chance to kill the pilot, much akin to a Pilot being able to Blitzkrieg an AV nest and wipe then out.

Cos 25m is gonna make swarms so OP. lower the price of dropships and it wont be a problem. I dont care if you cant hit infantry if you are in range i will shoot you. Dont see you complaining about forge guns so why be so against a 25m buff?

I pilot most of the time with an incubus (AV) or a grimsnes (infantry support).

This is the bit I don't understand:
Infantry, your suits and weapons cost about ten percent of the cost of an ADS, possibly twenty percent for all you protos, and that's for an ADV ADS, not proto. When you are having a hard time killing it, consider that; the pilot has invested huge amounts of SP and ISK, whereas a militia forge gun on a militia frame can end an ADS quite easily. I am actually very happy with AV at the moment - flying can be easy, unless the enemy work together (wait, what? :P) to take you down. When 2-3 infantry / a rail tank and a forge work together to take me out, I feel that I'm fair game.

What I don't want to see are the return of the days where I lift off and suddenly get mullered by 7 groups of unrendered swarms, 2 forge guns and a rail installation within 5 seconds, every time. :/

One other idea: why can't it be a food chain? Infantry>Tanks>dropships>infantry for example? Aren't some match ups meant to be more one-sided than others? :)