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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
Proficiency V.
95
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Posted - 2014.06.22 16:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:mattphi94 wrote:Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:Everything Dies wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I'm still in favor of buffing range and nerfing damage on swarms I'd like to see a return to 400 meters or so for range and then give it a few weeks to see if damage needs to be reduced. Bad things tend to happen when more than one change is made a time.  Vehicles would be Nonexistent then. 200 M would be a starting test, then possibly 250, but 400 is asking for swarms leaking from every supply depot on the map. You are right, 400 m does sound like a lot to me. Probably 200 to 250 would be a better option. Personaly having dropships get out of reach has been my main problem with them. I would say we need to leave the range alone but noticeably increase the missile velocity. Personally, guys that outrun my missiles frustrate me far more than guys tanking my damage. The guy trying to just tank the swarms will eventually get hammered (usually out of overconfidence) but the pilot that hits the jets and gets away scot free - not a fan of that. Another interesting thought might be to change the damage type of the missiles or provide variants that do. This is a very EVE-esque solution but might be worth exploring.
You can't tank damage from swarms in a dropship anymore... the only viable way to avoid a swarmer is to use an afterburner. If a pilot misses the timing of activating their afterburner, they're down 500k isk, if they choose to hang around too long, which is only a few seconds. Python's now have greater durability against swarms, especially with a booster, but get knocked around quite severally, due to them being so light. Swarms are not a joke anymore. What sucks now is that 3-4 people are trying to get easy points off one measly dropship, as it's highly rewarding, and next to effortless with a lock on. Be thankful that you can farm points off of us pilots... |
Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
Proficiency V.
96
|
Posted - 2014.06.22 23:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jack Galen wrote:medomai grey wrote:Jack Galen wrote:I pilot most of the time with an incubus (AV) or a grimsnes (infantry support).
This is the bit I don't understand:
Infantry, your suits and weapons cost about ten percent of the cost of an ADS, possibly twenty percent for all you protos, and that's for an ADV ADS, not proto. When you are having a hard time killing it, consider that; the pilot has invested huge amounts of SP and ISK, whereas a militia forge gun on a militia frame can end an ADS quite easily. I am actually very happy with AV at the moment - flying can be easy, unless the enemy work together (wait, what? :P) to take you down. When 2-3 infantry / a rail tank and a forge work together to take me out, I feel that I'm fair game.
What I don't want to see are the return of the days where I lift off and suddenly get mullered by 7 groups of unrendered swarms, 2 forge guns and a rail installation within 5 seconds, every time. :/
One other idea: why can't it be a food chain? Infantry>Tanks>dropships>infantry for example? Aren't some match ups meant to be more one-sided than others? :) Because ISK and SP are terrible factors to balance around in an MMO FPS. There is a "food chain". Infantry > AV > Vehicles > Infantry If I may phrase it better: Even the cheapest ADS fit possible (not even an effective one) is quite vulnerable to AV, which can be made rather effective for much less. Swarms, quite rightly, are not just point and shoot weapons. They are the only tracking enabled weapon of DUST, and so (quite rightly so) if I may quote Judge, some skill must be employed as for when to fire and how to go about it. I have lost ships to swarms, but only when the swarms are in the right hands. Forge gun, however, is point and shoot. A very powerful point and shoot indeed.
Forge guns are not simply point and shoot... they require timing and predictability to hit targets, especially with dropships. Swarms can use coordination, if available, but do not require any precise shooting whatsoever with lock-on capabilities.
An example of a non-skillful weapon is the smart pistol from Titan Fall, which is merely a cheap weapon, and was initially ridiculously overpowered, as it did insane damage and locked-on to the head, causing death near instantly with the little time it needed to do so. You really can't convince me that a swarm launcher requires skill.
The only skill that a user can have is a skill used with any other weapon, timing and predictability. The difference is that they do not require precise aim, and instead only require steady control of the cursor hovering over the correct target, which a completely inexperienced player could use, only has to release the trigger, and everything else is done for them, which dissolves any reasoning to the term "skillful". |
Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
Proficiency V.
96
|
Posted - 2014.06.23 17:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:lol people complaining that swarms take no skill but in reality they are the direct mirror to modern anti air weapons. Prime example is the stinger where you lock on and shot the missile. Sure there are countersystems to that but unfrotunately CCP decided no more client side updates which is basically saying a big "NO" to counter systems for aireal vehicles.
They are not a direct mirror to modern anti-air weapons. There are several real life factors that are not present in a video game. That one soldier has to carry that heavy weapon to wherever that vehicle is expected to be. You cannot replicate hours upon hours of exhaustion in a video game onto your character. An actual stinger would be far harder to aim than a mere swarm launcher, as your suit has mechanical joints assisting in lifting, running, and etc. You live only once... so if you mess up, or are unfortunate enough, that vehicle will still be flying around. The skill to using a stinger, is surviving long enough to use the damn thing, and having the energy to do it properly. You can not replicate this in Dust. An immortal clone with practically infinite resources and weapons to his disposal is child's play in comparison to a single human soldier who is running like hell to survive, and you can not regenerate instantly either, which should be obvious. |
Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
Proficiency V.
96
|
Posted - 2014.06.23 17:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fremder V1 wrote:While tanks are basically immune to most infantry weapons, dropships are barely (or not at all) endangered by the few that do work. Like remotes, proximity mines, plasma cannons or AV grenades. For those who don't have a heavy suit with a forge or another vehicle at hand, swarmlaunchers are about the only tool to fight back.
Trying to compare tanks with dropships, complaining about potentially loosing to the most maxed out swarm fit... or several people at once, seems mind-boggling. I imagine people wouldn't feel the need for that, if loosing a ship wasn't such a big deal. So as someone who doesn't use them: Maybe reducing their cost actually should be the first step to find a healthy compromise.
Reducing the cost would be amazing, but it simply does not fix the issue at hand. Swarms are a bit too powerful against dropships right now, especially the Incubus. A simple increase in resistances would suffice, but not quite to pre-Bravo values. Although a pilot may be skillfully invincible, they really can't do that much, yet infantry complains how they can not kill them whiie chasing them around the map farming points off of them. I as a forge gunner am perfectly content with 2500wp and not a single vehicle kill, in the instance that they take off or someone conveniently waits until they have no health and steal the kill from me. You still get a lot of isk and sp... some people are just greedy I suppose. My apologies to those who are not and have different reasoning behind this argument.
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Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
Proficiency V.
97
|
Posted - 2014.06.23 20:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:My AV fit is 230k...
Although, i am a Commando, an i have a Boundless CR.
If you dropshippers find it unreasonable that my extremely specialized suit is capable of killing you, or *gasp* at the very least deterring you, then do what every other vehicle squad does when they find me, push your Calscouts into my location, or just simply hit me with 2 missiles. I run BASE HP with regeneration mods.
Don't pull the 'my ship costs more' card either, because Isk Isn't a Balancing Factor, which was used as a reasoning AGAINST dropping tank prices for the entirety of Uprising 1.0-1.6.
Please, accept the fact you're not Godmode anymore, and take your deaths like a man(or woman).
Geebus, i die to a shotgun scout after my 2nd swarm volley like 3/10 times i try and AV.
Why are you running a 230k suit? A forge suit costs me only around 30k or less, and I can do just as well with a swarm fit of the same price. At least you have the option to use effective and cheap assets, unlike pilots, who are stuck with a 323k hull. |
Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
Proficiency V.
97
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 17:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:I think the problem dropship pilots are having have less to do with AV and more to do with prices and collision damage. The problem AV has now has less to do with dropships and more to do with infantry killing us. I am more or less happy with where we are at but I want cheaper dropships to eliminate the ISK argument.
When both sides feel slightly cheated then it is a good sign things are close.
And dropships pilots can't do anything when 2-3 swarms are covering the center of the map, which is likely where 2-3 objectives are in skirmish, or the center point in domination, making pilots useless, except for picking off snipere that are hopefully not way back into the redline. That's when you either wait for someone to deal with the swarmers, or have a squad that also does infantry to take them out. I do the same for whenever someone else is running some type of vehicle, whenever I'm running my sentinel, scout, commando, or logi. The most I can do as a pilot is recon, which I do all the time anyway, even if there is little AV or vehicle hinderance to where I can do some killing of my own. |
Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
Proficiency V.
98
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 04:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:The dark cloud wrote:lol people complaining that swarms take no skill but in reality they are the direct mirror to modern anti air weapons. Prime example is the stinger where you lock on and shot the missile. Sure there are countersystems to that but unfrotunately CCP decided no more client side updates which is basically saying a big "NO" to counter systems for aireal vehicles. They are not a direct mirror to modern anti-air weapons. There are several real life factors that are not present in a video game. That one soldier has to carry that heavy weapon to wherever that vehicle is expected to be. You cannot replicate hours upon hours of exhaustion in a video game onto your character. An actual stinger would be far harder to aim than a mere swarm launcher, as your suit has mechanical joints assisting in lifting, running, and etc. You live only once... so if you mess up, or are unfortunate enough, that vehicle will still be flying around. The skill to using a stinger, is surviving long enough to use the damn thing, and having the energy to do it properly. You can not replicate this in Dust. An immortal clone with practically infinite resources and weapons to his disposal is child's play in comparison to a single human soldier who is running like hell to survive, and you can not regenerate instantly either, which should be obvious. comparing RL to video games is always a re.tarded direction for a thread to take, you get all the arm chair generals and bitter vets talking **** and linking wiki articles.
That was the point I was making, that comparing swarm launchers to current day real life AV weapons was ridiculous, and that it shouldn't have any major effect to the thread and its discussion. There are exceptions that can actually benefit certain topics, but the majority of which simply do not contribute anything other than adding an unnecessary comment and clouding the topic in useless information...
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