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XxGhazbaranxX wrote:

The-Errorist wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

...

I do not believe contact grenades need a nerf. They're already barely used, further reductions in damage are unnecessary.

...

Contact grenades are barely used because they are only available for AUR and not ISK.

In the spreadsheet, they currently deal the same amount of damage as regular grenades of the same teir, which, in my opinion, is not right. The easiest grenade type to spam shouldn't do as much damage as one that takes more skill to use.

Thukker contact are proto and not aurum grenades... Just clarifying.

I also think the thukker contact grenades didnt need a nerf in damage. Their fitting costs, only being able to have 1, the fact that you need max grenade skill and the pricepoint is enough to have kept it where it was.

The fused on the other hand where a big problem when they had more damage than the proto variant and then they "homogenized" contanct grenades through the tiers giving them all the same damage and fitting costs even though the fused needed no skill prerequisites.

I think the Thukker should have stayed at 400 or maybe even gotten the damage raised to 500 while the fused which is aurum should have been lowered to proposed levels

BTW the contact grenades section in the market is empty, I suggest adding the standard and advanced isk variants to the market and adding them there.

Also a Contact flux would be nice; just saying

MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 19 post(s)
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Final Resolution. 203	Posted - 2014.05.27 20:31:00 - [331] - Quote Hotfix Alpha numbers might still be in the works, but I uploaded all green cell proposed changes to protofits.com for anyone interested since they are marked as final. I'll keep an eye out for further developments. Regards www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 482	Posted - 2014.05.27 21:53:00 - [332] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I wish REs would suffer a similar fate as locus grenades. I don't think there is a deadlier, cheap SP investment in the game. Grenades are supposed to be cheap. You guys really cry about everything. I thought this was all about HTFU and big bad new eden. Now we have pillow-nades for all but who can afford to run Proto Nades. Hypocrisy abounds "Shine bright like a diamond"
Cyrus Militani Leon Conglomerate 94	Posted - 2014.05.27 22:53:00 - [333] - Quote I agree with most of the numbers. The only thing I can't understand is the justification in halving the basic/advanced locus grenade damage. Especially when proto is untouched. If a locus grenade can't kill a player in a militia suit standing right on top of it, why would I even bother carrying them anymore? Especially the militia variant. I'm not going to carry 1 militia locus grenade that might do 250 damage. The only reason why I did before was "just incase I need it" when trying to keep the cost down.
Tesfa Alem ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 131	Posted - 2014.05.28 00:01:00 - [334] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Rattati, I think the huge nerfs to standard and advanced locus grenades are counterproductive and break Dust's game design conventions to no good purpose. Obligatory link to me showing my reasoning I don't, and if you draw up dmg/cap (pg+cpu) invested, the new curve is much more reasonable, in my honest opinion and in line with most damage curves in Dust 514. Given my other reasoning that I linked to, I firmly have two feet to stand on, on the issue. And as I pointed out to you, you dont have any legs to stand on. Your reasoning is that they one hit kill any thing including heavy heavy suits and you feel that they are OP for thier pg and cpu. [quote=CCP Rattati My reasoning was straightforward and based on relative hp per frame. I think it's lazy and cheap to spam two basic grenades and basically OHK anything, even heavies. The general population never, and has never migrated from the basic grenade because it's enough. And that goes against everything I think dust is about. I however, noticed a typo, proto was supposed to stay the same.[/quote] Here are the stats of the heavy suits, and mind you thats a 25% resistance to explosives at the proto level. Vs heavies post 1.8 standard and advanced grenades do 300 and 375 damage respectively. Now they will do 187.5 and 262 damage respectively. why even use a locus anymore when a flux will at least take down the shields of a heavy. A direct hit wont http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65875/1/heavysuits18.png Without a single module caldari heavy has 915 ehp, amarr 960 ehp, minmatar 825 and your own gallente suit at 915. It is impossible to OHK or two hit kill a basic heavy frame without any armor or shield extenders fitted. Medium frames have much less hp and are of course more vulerabe to grenades. (which they should be cause they are friggin grenades) well the used to be any wys, the weakest medium suit the minmatar (also the fastest snd thrrefore the hardest catch with a grenade), without any modules what so ever has 285 hp. Can literally stand on a standard grenade after the hotfix without modules and not get killed. with one enhanced plate the suit can walk over post a hotfix M1 locus. The standard and advance locus nades arent the ones that are ohking anybody unless you are already wounded or standing directly on top og them. The proto ones that OHK when spammed however are untouched. The only reason left or you to nerf the crap out of locus grenades is to crete a new SP sink. Which sucks, i liked my trusty grenades as backup. Sheild tankers are about to get f'd up by the amount of flux grenades people will migrate to. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 724	Posted - 2014.05.28 01:18:00 - [335] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: ... I do not believe contact grenades need a nerf. They're already barely used, further reductions in damage are unnecessary. ... Contact grenades are barely used because they are only available for AUR and not ISK. In the spreadsheet, they currently deal the same amount of damage as regular grenades of the same teir, which, in my opinion, is not right. The easiest grenade type to spam shouldn't do as much damage as one that takes more skill to use. Thukker contact are proto and not aurum grenades... Just clarifying. I also think the thukker contact grenades didnt need a nerf in damage. Their fitting costs, only being able to have 1, the fact that you need max grenade skill and the pricepoint is enough to have kept it where it was. The fused on the other hand where a big problem when they had more damage than the proto variant and then they "homogenized" contanct grenades through the tiers giving them all the same damage and fitting costs even though the fused needed no skill prerequisites. I think the Thukker should have stayed at 400 or maybe even gotten the damage raised to 500 while the fused which is aurum should have been lowered to proposed levels BTW the contact grenades section in the market is empty, I suggest adding the standard and advanced isk variants to the market and adding them there. Also a Contact flux would be nice; just saying Ah, there is an ISK version, but it's in the wrong section and not in the contact grenade category of the market. As for fitting cost, it has the same PG/CPU requirement as the regular core locus grenade. Also the justification you made about it needing more SP to use, I don't think it anything should be balanced based on how SP intensive it is, kinda like how balancing things around ISK is bad. Also the Thukker and Fused locus grenades do not deal more damage then base prototype grenades. Anyway I want contact grenades to give just as grenades as regular grenades, continue to have the same PG/CPU req as the base grenade of their teir, but have around 25% less damage. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. Scanned scouts aren't dead scouts, they're +600HP scouts.
PopiChulo Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.05.28 02:24:00 - [336] - Quote im not sure if this the right thread for this but im awfully sick of tankers and drop-ships camping and spamming uplinks and cru's and spawn points. (makes me want to quit dust!!!) I understand that counter measures were put in for vehicles but when you cant even come in because a blaster tank is camping it makes the game not fun anymore. a tanker getting 1 or 2 orbitals by themselves takes away from the team effort the game advertises itself to be. Like clocked scouts with militia shotguns taking out a heavy with 700hp armor and getting a 30-40/? k/dr (that's another story in itself), tanks n drop-ships getting the same kind of k/dr and hiding behind 4000-7000 armor is sad. There are the true tankers and Ds that only go after other tanks and Ds and i salute -..-7 you guys for being righteous but to name 1 a-hole and corp specifically... Duna 2002 and those in Duna Corp with vehicles ... no squad of 2 should be getting 70-80 if not more, of the clone kills alone. these are the kind of players that ruin it for the ones who try to run the ground game blaster kind of guns should be nurffed towards infantry as well as their kills should be counted as a vehicle assist rather then a kill after all the vehicle is doing the kill not the person. If my heavy suit had 4000hp then i would be glad to stand toe to toe and pop swarms off at them.... Vehicles should have their own maps to fight each other they're not needed for battle fields as swarms and plasma cannons can handle installations effectively... take away the easy kdr and war pionts and maybe they will get out of their vehicles and fight like a man....Js
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 221	Posted - 2014.05.28 02:31:00 - [337] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I wish REs would suffer a similar fate as locus grenades. I don't think there is a deadlier, cheap SP investment in the game. I don't mind the damage that REs do, but the distance they can be thrown needs to be cut in half. Duct tape 2.0 - Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 221	Posted - 2014.05.28 02:35:00 - [338] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Taking a lot of various feedback into account, we are pulling the GA repair rate change, and improving the AR by 3%, instead of 2% Consider the numbers in the spreadsheet in green cells to be locked and loaded for Hotfix Alpha. So will you be reducing the Gallente shield regen rate since they are keeping their free armour repair mod? (Or will all other races, with fewer low slots, continue to be double penalized?) Crickets... #lolgallente Duct tape 2.0 - Have WD-40; will travel.
Xx-VxF-xX Void of Faction 80	Posted - 2014.05.28 02:55:00 - [339] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Rattati, I think the huge nerfs to standard and advanced locus grenades are counterproductive and break Dust's game design conventions to no good purpose. Obligatory link to me showing my reasoning I don't, and if you draw up dmg/cap (pg+cpu) invested, the new curve is much more reasonable, in my honest opinion and in line with most damage curves in Dust 514. Given my other reasoning that I linked to, I firmly have two feet to stand on, on the issue. Can I have a dummy grenade that cost 0/0 cpu/pg. All I use grenades for is to scare a target out of cover. They don't know what type of grenade i'm throwing and that is all I use my std locus for anyway. Might even save my life as I think I have killed myself more with them than anything else.
Valko Maddog The Awesome Gang 5	Posted - 2014.05.28 10:56:00 - [340] - Quote Something is very wrong in the final proposed numbers. There will be no change for the scouts and assaults. Scouts will be still the same. Don't you notice that all the discussions about scouts were only scouts vs scouts. Nobody gave any idea how to balance scouts vs other classes and most important vs assaults. The main issue of 1.8 is 80% scouts and no assaults. this will remain the same after this fix. i don't see any point in this fix why scouts should be partially replaced by assaults. they are a lot faster , almost the same HP and invisible.!!! Gallente logi with scanner is still the worst logi choice. Scanners will be useless as before. Cal scout is a lot better than proto scanner and also cheaper.

Master Smurf Nos Nothi 485	Posted - 2014.05.28 12:39:00 - [341] - Quote Valko Maddog wrote: Something is very wrong in the final proposed numbers. There will be no change for the scouts and assaults. Scouts will be still the same. Don't you notice that all the discussions about scouts were only scouts vs scouts. Nobody gave any idea how to balance scouts vs other classes and most important vs assaults. The main issue of 1.8 is 80% scouts and no assaults. this will remain the same after this fix. i don't see any point in this fix why scouts should be partially replaced by assaults. they are a lot faster , almost the same HP and invisible.!!! Gallente logi with scanner is still the worst logi choice. Scanners will be useless as before. Cal scout is a lot better than proto scanner and also cheaper. Assaults and an overall CPU/PG pass and Amarr slot layouts are supposed to follow. CCP - please finalize proposals this week and drop in Alpha next week so we can start discussing whats next. Its a hotfix not a monthly update. Lets go!!! "Shine bright like a diamond"
Cyrus Militani Leon Conglomerate 96	Posted - 2014.05.28 20:46:00 - [342] - Quote Hey Rattati, the numbers look great. Thank you for increasing the locus numbers. Even though you are still nerfing them, 300 is more reasonable than 250. Thank you for that. Can't wait for this update to be pushed.
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Final Resolution. 218	Posted - 2014.05.28 21:08:00 - [343] - Quote Seeing changes even in green cell 'ready to go' numbers, I think I will refrain from doing updates to protofits while we get REAL final numbers [-_-] www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Tesfa Alem ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 132	Posted - 2014.05.28 23:11:00 - [344] - Quote Thanks you very much Ratatti for taking feedback from the players into consideration and boosting the locus grenade numbers, definitley not what i'm used to. Cheers. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Cyrus Militani 99	Posted - 2014.05.29 17:23:00 - [345] - Quote Something about having a flat 0% dampening on the standard cloak feels wrong. Having a static dampening on the cloak in general also feels wrong. Can you adjust the dampening depending on whether the scout is moving, just like how the cloak is invisible while not moving but visible while moving? I was thinking about something along the lines of: -- Standard -- Stationary: 3% profile dampening Moving: 1% profile dampening -- Advanced -- Stationary: 7% profile dampening Moving: 5% profile dampening -- Prototype -- Stationary: 15% profile dampening Moving: 10% profile dampening I like the idea of being able to scan a cloaker when they're on the move, but give them a chance to beat the scan by sitting still. The numbers probably shouldn't be drastically different, but have some sort of fluctuation.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3985	Posted - 2014.05.29 17:34:00 - [346] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: I wish REs would suffer a similar fate as locus grenades. I don't think there is a deadlier, cheap SP investment in the game. Grenades are supposed to be cheap. You guys really cry about everything. I thought this was all about HTFU and big bad new eden. Now we have pillow-nades for all but who can afford to run Proto Nades. Hypocrisy abounds I read that as "I'm a dumbass and I don't have proto nades" Level 3 Forum Warrior PSN: wbrom42
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 13	Posted - 2014.05.29 19:09:00 - [347] - Quote Great work and great changes ! Is it possible to look at controls for the hotfix after this one? A big part of the problem with weapons like the combat rifle is due to aim assist. A weapon that has "kick" is really hard to control with mouse and keyboard but really quite easy with controller. The performance levels possible with certain weapons combined with aim assist and without aim assist is being overlooked. I realize, as a m/kb user, that I am the minority and probably not high on your priority list, but this problem is very real.
zzZaXxx The Phoenix Federation 413	Posted - 2014.05.29 19:19:00 - [348] - Quote Seems like a slight reduction in cloak field fitting cost is called for since standard will be of little use now and there's a reason to go for proto, but use is limited by one's level in scout skill. Proto cloak shouldn't be limited to only proto scouts. It should take some sacrifice but not as much as it does now considering cloak's effectiveness is being cut in half.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 10032	Posted - 2014.05.29 19:31:00 - [349] - Quote Rattati, I would like to point out that HMG damage against LAV's isn't the problem. Before 1.7, you could kill an LAV with an HMG without much hassle given a few seconds. However, with the shield regeneration damage threshold thingy, shields would regenerate straight through the damage, as it does too little damage per bullet to stop regeneration, which increased the time it takes to kill an LAV dramatically. A 25% damage increase against vehicles won't change that. So I suggest to actually look at the damage threshold thing more than anything else. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1956	Posted - 2014.05.29 23:38:00 - [350] - Quote Cyrus Grevare wrote: Seeing changes even in green cell 'ready to go' numbers, I think I will refrain from doing updates to protofits while we get REAL final numbers [-_-] Nothing is real until deployed "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1956	Posted - 2014.05.29 23:39:00 - [351] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Rattati, I would like to point out that HMG damage against LAV's isn't the problem. Before 1.7, you could kill an LAV with an HMG without much hassle given a few seconds. However, with the shield regeneration damage threshold thingy, shields would regenerate straight through the damage, as it does too little damage per bullet to stop regeneration, which increased the time it takes to kill an LAV dramatically. A 25% damage increase against vehicles won't change that. So I suggest to actually look at the damage threshold thing more than anything else. Good point "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1787	Posted - 2014.05.30 00:02:00 - [352] - Quote Do you have a timeframe to when we could expect this to hit? Like 1 month? 3-5 months? I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 402	Posted - 2014.05.30 00:31:00 - [353] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Rattati, I would like to point out that HMG damage against LAV's isn't the problem. Before 1.7, you could kill an LAV with an HMG without much hassle given a few seconds. However, with the shield regeneration damage threshold thingy, shields would regenerate straight through the damage, as it does too little damage per bullet to stop regeneration, which increased the time it takes to kill an LAV dramatically. A 25% damage increase against vehicles won't change that. So I suggest to actually look at the damage threshold thing more than anything else. Good point Damage threshold would work better as an amount of damage per second (or some time period) rather than per hit. Shield regen happens per second right? Maybe you could just check that damage taken since the last regen tick and if it is past a certain threshold then no regen for you.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 846	Posted - 2014.05.30 01:16:00 - [354] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: Damage threshold would work better as an amount of damage per second (or some time period) rather than per hit. Shield regen happens per second right? Maybe you could just check that damage taken since the last regen tick and if it is past a certain threshold then no regen for you. But the shield thing is designed to stop small arms fire from halting shield regen, so it could get tricky. Dust/Eve transfers

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1959	Posted - 2014.05.30 02:09:00 - [355] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Garth Mandra wrote: Damage threshold would work better as an amount of damage per second (or some time period) rather than per hit. Shield regen happens per second right? Maybe you could just check that damage taken since the last regen tick and if it is past a certain threshold then no regen for you. But the shield thing is designed to stop small arms fire from halting shield regen, so it could get tricky. I don't necessarily want an HMG to destroy a healthy shielded LAV, but if it's been hit by something, and it's doing a suicidal run for you at half armor, I would like to be able to have a chance at finishing it off with a full HMG clip. That's what I am going for here. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries 10035	Posted - 2014.05.30 03:40:00 - [356] - Quote Personally I believe a proto HMG should kill a militia LAV given 3/4th of a clip. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1962	Posted - 2014.05.30 04:01:00 - [357] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Personally I believe a proto HMG should kill a militia LAV given 3/4th of a clip. it should definitely hurt "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1707	Posted - 2014.05.30 04:13:00 - [358] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Master Smurf wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: I wish REs would suffer a similar fate as locus grenades. I don't think there is a deadlier, cheap SP investment in the game. Grenades are supposed to be cheap. You guys really cry about everything. I thought this was all about HTFU and big bad new eden. Now we have pillow-nades for all but who can afford to run Proto Nades. Hypocrisy abounds I read that as "I'm a dumbass and I don't have proto nades" All I read is everything that kills me bothers me, and I am going to whine until nothing can kill me... "I've made a huge mistake." -G.O.B. Bluth
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1411	Posted - 2014.05.30 05:04:00 - [359] - Quote hey rattati, you've done some great job wiht our feedback, do you think we can get a guestimate as to when they are coming out? I am very excited to see some things come into play Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Jason Ivens Ballarat Rebels 0	Posted - 2014.05.30 05:27:00 - [360] - Quote Love the changes to amour rep modules I would be adding the passive armour rep to all Amarr suits like the Gellente already have, to make it even.



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