I like this post. I agree a single AV should not be able to kill a Tank but I like to think that a single AV player should be a thorn in his side if he is spec into AVs

Edit: i made a typo

Not op at all. HE set up his Maddy to deal with the sustained DPS of swarms and to an extent, forges. He is very vulnerable to alpha damage. 3 shots from a double damage modded militia railgun, 3 RE, or some PE would destroy that fit. Whereas a setup with 2 hardeners and a plate would easily handle that same railgun and RE and PE, but would suffer against those swarms because of the inability to rep back that health.

It isn't that repper tanks are OP, it's that the video doesn't show all possible tank counters.

And I strongly disagree with you. Why are all of you so hell-bent on destroying tanks? Is it not enough if you managed to make it activate its modules and retreat?

That's how it should be. A dedicated AV vs a dedicated tank won't be able to kill the tank, but it will be a huge hindrance to the tank and limit its abilities. Though two or more dedicated AV and the dedicated tank should be in trouble.

And buffing swarms will just create a new set of problems. The real problem is the actual design of Av in this game. All Av basically follows a simple slow firing huge burst design. This works in a lot of games because vehicles are free and losing one is of no consequence. In a game like dust there's a cost to running vehicles.

lets take a step back to dropships because they really expound on this problem. A python on a good day can last 3 forge blasts before dying. Now vs one forge this means as long as the python gtfos at first hit he can escape before the forger can kill him. He is largely unkillable unless stupid. Now lets say that we decide to buff forges because we have no good counter to dropships. Now it only takes 2 shots. If the pilot is smart with flying he will still be able to escape but a forger has an excellent chance to kill.

unfortunately this isn't always 1v1. Anything a drop ship pilot meets 2 forgers he's instantly dead without any chance to do anything. This doesn't create good game play especially when the risk in cost is to the tune of 400k vs potentially 2 free suits.

same thing can happen to tanks by having this style of weapon we run the risk of purely alpha striking tanks when more than one swarmer is around just for the cost of having Av be able to solo.(which I'm actually for)

the solution to this is to finally get of the pot and **** and ccp figure out what they want for vehicles. Either they become cheap as dirt glass canons or Av is designed in a manner with high dos, high rof, low dmg per shot weapons where a vehicle will certainly die faster to multiple Av but because the shots are spread over many than just one he can at least react and try to escape, not just be instantly blapped by the first shot.

This does happen though but I guess not as frequently as some would like but I know that I'm not the only one witnessing it , I have even seen players chop up drop ships and HAV's with plasma cannons so I know it's just not as bad as many make it out to be .

I just know that I'm not the only one seeing swarms and forge guns killing tanks and in the kill feed .

1) KDR - I wouldn't actually address this as a 'metric' worth balancing around as a primary statistic.
2) Isk efficiency of vehicles vs infantry. This one is also quite tough, but I'd say that in their current state most vehicle users will acknowledge that they are (unless in a coordinated situation) extremely isk inefficient compared to infantry. This has a problem on both sides in that vehicles underperform when played solo, or overperform when played with a group. As it is, I think it's *mostly* fine right now, but I would like to see vehicles get slightly more isk efficient *without making them infantry murdering machines*. Isk efficiency could easily be boosted through WP for MCRU spawns, allowing tanks to replace a weapon turret with an active scanning station (functions like current infantry active scanners, instead of the giant pulsing scanner).
3a)Proto AV vs Proto tank should probably be at about a 2.5:1 ratio. I don't have any numbers to really support this idea, but I heavily feel that AV (even heavy av) should be a strong deterrent to equally fit vehicles, not instant death.
3b)Proto AV vs STD tank should be closer to a 1.5:1 ratio, where once again it's not instant death, but it is a big threat.
4) Start with the average players, then take a look at things where they might be overperforming and find out *why* things are like that.
5) Cant help you here.
6) Infantry don't like to use weapons that cannot kill other infantry, or put them at significant risk from other infantry.

To take someone elses words : There are too many differences between the tiers of AV and Vehicle, things need to be brought much closer into line with each other - aka tiericide.

Be it true or false, it's anecdotal, and as such shouldn't be taken seriously.

It should be possible only if AV has spent a comparable amount of SP in their AV weapons to counter a vehicle. Again, it takes 3.4 million SP to simply field a repper tank like the one in the video, but the swarm used to kill it only used at minimum 1.75 million, including getting complex damage mods. That's almost half the SP the tanker needs just to get one called out. If he spends 3.4 million on killing the tank, then yes he should stand a chance on killing the tank, but not before.

This is why tanks were changed in the first place. Because 20 million SP tanks were going down in 3 shots to a 610k SP investment in swarms.

Tanks also enjoy a ton of benefits for those SP that AV doesn't.

A tank is capable of killing both vehicles and infantry, has a ton more hitpoints, does a ton more damage, and is immune to a large percentage of other weapons in the game.

It's really starting to seem like many of the tankers on here want all the benefits, but no weaknesses.

Easy mode, if you will.

They do now

It can be done now

I use a proto breach FG to 1 shot tanks

No its impossible number wise, especially with a breach FG which takes forever to charge up, unless you are high up, perched unseen by the tank, even then.... look at its damage, add 60% if you hit the tanks back if I remember correctly... maybe base milita tanks...

As they should when a tank has at the least 10x more armor than a suit, and 4x more when you're talking about the sentinels.

Which is sad, how a vehicle with a giant powerplant compared to a suit, has only 4000 armor.

At risk of giving up some some secrets (any AV'er who know what they are doing would know this anyways)

The proper use of remote explosives can and will beat a triple rep Madrugar any day. I have yet to see one survive 7500 alpha damage.

Also ambush them. Force the engagement on your terms running straight at them usually means you die.

So basically, in my opinion no need for a nerf. If people keep dying to them all the time then they should really learn how to skill and use bonuses properly. Dust is unlike any other FPS out there and you absolutely need to learn how to adapt and overcome otherwise the game will eat you alive.

-Marcus

1.REs. Three total will kill it, or two if they are next to/on the weak point.

2. A maxed out assault forge gun can dps it down in 4 shots. Less if one can hit the weakspot.

3. Large railgun. Particle Cannon takes 4 shots, damage mod reduces that to 3, and hitting the weakpoint with a damage mod reduces that to 2.

4. PEs. Lay an RE, switch to your PE, and lay the PE on top of the RE. The double combo does about 2700 damage. Two of these close together pops a repper tank easy.

5. Maxed out breach forge gun can two shot a repper tank, and maybe even one shot if you hit the weakspot.

6. Maxed out swarms, if you begin your attack from behind so the missiles hit the weakspot.

There you go. Begin testing.

Okay that's only swarms, add proto av packed grenades with even a militia swarm helping, that tank would be done for. Not to mention rolling over Proximity Mines, that tank would be a lost memory. Here goes another pointless nerf. The problem is there is only 2 AV weapons and most people just whine about the tanks and never do anything about it and never spec into any AV what so ever. That tank is completely fair and needs no buffs/nerfs. what needs to happen is more AV weapons need to be put in the game. Oh and not to mention that tank would completely get obliterated by and OB, I have no idea how many times I have to say this STOP NERFING STUFF! People put a lot of time and effort into weapons/tanks, and for you to nerf it is ridiculous for the simple fact that after the nerf they completely hate it because it became completely useless, so they ask for a respec but then you guys say I'm sorry but you are supposed to spec into things you desire to always use so we cannot do this even though we nerfed it into oblivion. As my brother would say, " Oh that's a tank? Nothing a Ishakone Assualt Forge gun can't take care of!"