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Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6431	Posted - 2014.04.06 15:43:00 - [1] - Quote In case somebody wanted to know the cost of being a maxed out AVer (SP & ISK Wise), I figured I'd put this here. ISK Price Quote: Assault mk.0 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher 1x Ishukone Assault Sub-Machine Gun 1x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenade 3x Complex Damage Modifiers 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Complex CPU Upgrade 1x Complex PG Upgrade Here, we have a fully decked, top-of-the-line AV fitting. It's got all of the tools an AVer needs to get the job done, and it's 3rd best AV fitting in the game. Based on my experience, an AVer using this suit can expect to die about 3-4 times on average. So now what seems like a measly 227,490 ISK is actually a cost ranging 682,470 ISK - 909,960 ISK. SP Price Now let's address the SP side. These are all of the skills needed to be a beastly AVer with the Swarm Launcher. By having these skills, you are self-sufficient and do not need to rely on constant support from a squad or need to be near an ammo source 24/7. You can even Strafe an 80GJ Blaster. Quote: Dropsuit Command II Minmatar Medium Dropsuits III Minmatar Assault Dropsuits V Dropsuit Upgrades II Dropsuit Core Upgrades II Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades V Kinetic Catalyzation III Electronics V Engineering V Profile Dampening V Nanocircuitry V Weaponry III Explosives III Grenadier V Demolitions V Light Weapon Operation IV Sidearm Operation II Swarm Launcher Operation V Swarm Launcher Proficiency V Swarm Launcher Ammo Count V Sub-Machine Gun Operation V Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency I Total Cost: 15,222,620 SP -HAND The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Patrick57 6729	Posted - 2014.04.06 15:45:00 - [2] - Quote Good AV only costs 0 SP and 70k ISK. My personal best ADS match
Roofer Madness Algintal Core Gallente Federation 933	Posted - 2014.04.06 15:47:00 - [3] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Good AV only costs 0 SP and 70k ISK. Jihad Jeep FTW. 8,000 ISK I spent half my ISK on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The rest I wasted.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6431	Posted - 2014.04.06 15:48:00 - [4] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Good AV only costs 0 SP and 70k ISK. Yeah if your a dropship pilot who doesn't know can't fit enough tank to survive a railgun hit and doesn't know what an Afterburner is. Or a tanker who couldn't be bothered with things such as situational awareness, and is too lazy to constantly check the map for enemy vehicles. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2622	Posted - 2014.04.06 15:59:00 - [5] - Quote Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: Good AV only costs 0 SP and 70k ISK. Yeah if your a dropship pilot who can't fit enough tank to survive a railgun hit and doesn't know what an Afterburner is. Or a tanker who couldn't be bothered with things such as situational awareness, and is too lazy to constantly check the map for enemy vehicles. My forge fitting costs 4M, and is about 100k. I think I posted it in the forums once. Wrecks all the tanks (when the damn Ishy is working) ak.0 4 LYFE je ne regrette rien
TERMINALANCE Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 287	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:05:00 - [6] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: Good AV only costs 0 SP and 70k ISK. Yeah if your a dropship pilot who can't fit enough tank to survive a railgun hit and doesn't know what an Afterburner is. Or a tanker who couldn't be bothered with things such as situational awareness, and is too lazy to constantly check the map for enemy vehicles. My forge fitting costs 4M, and is about 100k. I think I posted it in the forums once. Wrecks all the tanks (when the damn Ishy is working) I think you would find that fit significantly lacking for top tier play. its lack of ability to take any serious hits and deal out the proper spike dmg necessary to make a substantial threat deterrence in a reasonable amount of time means your staying power is extremely limited. and for top tier play staying power and effectiveness over time are important considerations. Sure its a good pub stomper for the walk though skirmish, but when games are on the line and you have to win it really wont hold up.
Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 2293	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:06:00 - [7] - Quote what's your point? Have you lost your spotlight now that HAVs are very nearly balanced? Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 872	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:10:00 - [8] - Quote Who uses full proto gear to take out tanks? 1.8 better then 1.7 but not by much. Henchmen21: Infantry Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 2295	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:20:00 - [9] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: Who uses full proto gear to take out tanks? i use c-1 scout, cloak, and f/45s. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
The Attorney General 2529	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:22:00 - [10] - Quote First we should address why you are dying three or four times attacking a tank in a proto suit. If you fail 75% of the time, then you are horrible at AV. Second, your fit is meh at best. No armor repair? What happens when someone glances a shot into your armor? You just hope it doesn't happen again? Why even run a min assault? You could put three damage mods on an amarr logi and carry ammo, RE's and proxies. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.

Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 872	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:24:00 - [11] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: Who uses full proto gear to take out tanks? i use c-1 scout, cloak, and f/45s. Don't even need the f/45's basic remotes will do. I always soften them up with basic packed nades for good measure anyway. F/45's would be worth it if you got four upon spawning. 1.8 better then 1.7 but not by much. Henchmen21: Infantry Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1524	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:25:00 - [12] - Quote Atiim wrote: In case somebody wanted to know the cost of being a maxed out AVer (SP & ISK Wise), I figured I'd put this here. ISK Price Quote: Assault mk.0 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher 1x Ishukone Assault Sub-Machine Gun 1x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenade 3x Complex Damage Modifiers 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Complex CPU Upgrade 1x Complex PG Upgrade Here, we have a fully decked, top-of-the-line AV fitting. It's got all of the tools an AVer needs to get the job done, and it's 3rd best AV fitting in the game. Based on my experience, an AVer using this suit can expect to die about 3-4 times on average. So now what seems like a measly 227,490 ISK is actually a cost ranging 682,470 ISK - 909,960 ISK. SP Price Now let's address the SP side. These are all of the skills needed to be a beastly AVer with the Swarm Launcher. By having these skills, you are self-sufficient and do not need to rely on constant support from a squad or need to be near an ammo source 24/7. You can even Strafe an 80GJ Blaster. Quote: Dropsuit Command II Minmatar Medium Dropsuits III Minmatar Assault Dropsuits V Dropsuit Upgrades II Dropsuit Core Upgrades II Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades V Kinetic Catalyzation III Electronics V Engineering V Profile Dampening V Nanocircuitry V Weaponry III Explosives III Grenadier V Demolitions V Light Weapon Operation IV Sidearm Operation II Swarm Launcher Operation V Swarm Launcher Proficiency V Swarm Launcher Ammo Count V Sub-Machine Gun Operation V Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency I Total Cost: 15,222,620 SP -HAND There's so much bullshit here tha'ts unnecessary. Proto SMG, you call that a necessity? My standard SMG is just fine with no proficiency. Do you need a proto dropsuit too? You know what I'm thinking? Attim's a scrub and relies on proto and gear to win, because he's got no skill. But let's move to the skills. I already covered the SMG and proficiency as not being necessities; they are just luxuries. Let me just bold the some of the other luxuries you got here... Now, what's the final cost, both ISK and SP, when you get rid of the proto SMG and the proto dropsuit? Now get rid of those bolded skills, or drop them down to level 4. If you seriously need 3% more damage to win, then you have no skill. Level 5s at that point are just luxuries. Git gud, scrub. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2623	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:26:00 - [13] - Quote TERMINALANCE wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: Good AV only costs 0 SP and 70k ISK. Yeah if your a dropship pilot who can't fit enough tank to survive a railgun hit and doesn't know what an Afterburner is. Or a tanker who couldn't be bothered with things such as situational awareness, and is too lazy to constantly check the map for enemy vehicles. My forge fitting costs 4M, and is about 100k. I think I posted it in the forums once. Wrecks all the tanks (when the damn Ishy is working) I think you would find that fit significantly lacking for top tier play. its lack of ability to take any serious hits and deal out the proper spike dmg necessary to make a substantial threat deterrence in a reasonable amount of time means your staying power is extremely limited. and for top tier play staying power and effectiveness over time are important considerations. Sure its a good pub stomper for the walk though skirmish, but when games are on the line and you have to win it really wont hold up. Ishukone Assault, prof 3, double damage mods. I don't think your spike gets much bigger. The only difference between my fitting and one costing an extra 2M SP is you've got a little more armour. (This was a 1.7 and prior fitting, incidentally) ak.0 4 LYFE je ne regrette rien
Sergeant Sazu SINISTER DEATH SQUAD 33	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:33:00 - [14] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: Who uses full proto gear to take out tanks? Exactly, I'm having trouble keeping up my ISK using Advanced AV. I get shot at by Blasters and all the infantry... It's probably the least rewarding role ISK wise. But when I make my AV fit cheaper, I can't get the job done. Av Grenades and Swarms used to be a much more viable fit... Lis of things that happen most of the time: 1. The tank throws up a hardener and ignores me 2. The tank blasts me and moves on 3. They run away before I can finish them off. Who runs away in a tank? :/ 4. Most common, I get shot up by infantry. So unless I'm sitting on my Nanohive on a tower where I can repeatedly back up for cover, I hardly ever get the job done. I'm not expecting to solo a tank, I know how it is, but I don't even get close. Especially when every harmful thing in the game is after me and only my "Trusty Toxin" SMG can answer. I just try and try again until someone else happens to input some damage while I'm attacking a tank. Even then the tank will turn on their hardener and run to the redline to heal. Both my shield and armor recover 20HP/s. Your argument is invalid.
ROMULUS H3X research lab 114	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:35:00 - [15] - Quote Atiim wrote: In case somebody wanted to know the cost of being a maxed out AVer (SP & ISK Wise), I figured I'd put this here. ISK Price Quote: Assault mk.0 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher 1x Ishukone Assault Sub-Machine Gun 1x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenade 3x Complex Damage Modifiers 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Complex CPU Upgrade 1x Complex PG Upgrade Here, we have a fully decked, top-of-the-line AV fitting. It's got all of the tools an AVer needs to get the job done, and it's 3rd best AV fitting in the game. Based on my experience, an AVer using this suit can expect to die about 3-4 times on average. So now what seems like a measly 227,490 ISK is actually a cost ranging 682,470 ISK - 909,960 ISK. SP Price Now let's address the SP side. These are all of the skills needed to be a beastly AVer with the Swarm Launcher. By having these skills, you are self-sufficient and do not need to rely on constant support from a squad or need to be near an ammo source 24/7. You can even Strafe an 80GJ Blaster. Quote: Dropsuit Command II Minmatar Medium Dropsuits III Minmatar Assault Dropsuits V Dropsuit Upgrades II Dropsuit Core Upgrades II Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades V Kinetic Catalyzation III Electronics V Engineering V Profile Dampening V Nanocircuitry V Weaponry III Explosives III Grenadier V Demolitions V Light Weapon Operation IV Sidearm Operation II Swarm Launcher Operation V Swarm Launcher Proficiency V Swarm Launcher Ammo Count V Sub-Machine Gun Operation V Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency I Total Cost: 15,222,620 SP -HAND Put a Flaylock on that fitting and then it would be even better AV.. FORGE/FLAYLOCK/FISTS--NUFF SED YOU SHALL NOT CATCH ME FOR I AM THE GINGERBREAD FATMAN -Romulus H3X
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 752	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:05:00 - [16] - Quote Atiim wrote: In case somebody wanted to know the cost of being a maxed out AVer (SP & ISK Wise), I figured I'd put this here. ISK Price Quote: Assault mk.0 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher 1x Ishukone Assault Sub-Machine Gun 1x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenade 3x Complex Damage Modifiers 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Complex CPU Upgrade 1x Complex PG Upgrade Here, we have a fully decked, top-of-the-line AV fitting. It's got all of the tools an AVer needs to get the job done, and it's 3rd best AV fitting in the game. Based on my experience, an AVer using this suit can expect to die about 3-4 times on average. So now what seems like a measly 227,490 ISK is actually a cost ranging 682,470 ISK - 909,960 ISK. SP Price Now let's address the SP side. These are all of the skills needed to be a beastly AVer with the Swarm Launcher. By having these skills, you are self-sufficient and do not need to rely on constant support from a squad or need to be near an ammo source 24/7. You can even Strafe an 80GJ Blaster. Quote: Dropsuit Command II Minmatar Medium Dropsuits III Minmatar Assault Dropsuits V Dropsuit Upgrades II Dropsuit Core Upgrades II Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades V Kinetic Catalyzation III Electronics V Engineering V Profile Dampening V Nanocircuitry V Weaponry III Explosives III Grenadier V Demolitions V Light Weapon Operation IV Sidearm Operation II Swarm Launcher Operation V Swarm Launcher Proficiency V Swarm Launcher Ammo Count V Sub-Machine Gun Operation V Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency I Total Cost: 15,222,620 SP -HAND Why do you need a proto suit to AV? It's called an LAV, if you are really hard up for protection. Forged me down quite a few tanks yesterday, with an advanced suit, advanced damage mods, pro forge gun. (caldari suit). Surely you could make that cheaper while maintaining an effectiveness against tanks. Anyways, I have a LAV that has room for just one rider. My Forge, and your swarms, and tanks die by the hundreds. Unless it's a triple hardened gunnlogi. In that case we say **** that guy and pull out sica's. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 1165	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:09:00 - [17] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: what's your point? Have you lost your spotlight now that HAVs are very nearly balanced? there not thoughGÇª. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 752	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:13:00 - [18] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: what's your point? Have you lost your spotlight now that HAVs are very nearly balanced? False, they are not NEARLY balanced. They are not even close fella. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 394	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:22:00 - [19] - Quote I can suppress and sometimes take out (if they hang around like morons) proto fit tanks with my dren swarms. In fact, I find it is the most effective counter to the armour tanked sica/gunnloggi BS, as infantry AV can be concealed easier than a massive tank (also his railgod gun can't hit you effectively if you know how to strafe). Blaster tanks, I engage from dynamic directions from height to confuse them (cover is your friend). No compromises, since I use a commando. If they send infantry after me, I mow them down with my rail rifle and continue to gain points of of damaging tanks and sending them with their tails between their legs. The fit is only 10k isk. My double damage modded sica of vengeance costs me 79k isk and can easily be lost, if I don't get the jump on the enemy. TL;DR, standard swarms (and any light AV weapon for that matter) are OP (on the right commando) Try using a PLC as an AV weapon on a Galmmando, you'll be pleased.
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 394	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:25:00 - [20] - Quote I say again, if you want to be great with cheap AV, go commando. You don't make compromises, and that reload speed and extra damage helps a lot.

Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6432	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:26:00 - [21] - Quote @Charlotte O'Dell What Spotlight? And I've already stated the point of this thread in the first sentence of the OP. It's for people who are wondering what the cost of a maxed out AV fitting with maxed out skills would be. Please obtain basic reading comprehension skills before insulting me. Thanks. @Lorhak Gannarsein Yes, and I have a vehicle build that costs 2,269,740 SP. With it, I can wreck both Infantry and Tankers all day, every day. Does this mean that being a tanker only requires 2.2m SP? @Henchmen21 I do. But a better question would be "who uses prototype anything on a vehicle?" @The Attorney General I die 3-4 times fighting a vehicle because of infantry running around with Rifles, Cloaked Scouts, Snipers, and just about anything else that's AP in this game. Unlike Forge Gunners, I don't get my results by camping on a tower. What do I do? The same thing every person tanking shields would do. Duck for cover and wait for their shields to regen. You'd probably die anyways if someone broke into your armor with only 135HP. Why Minmatar Assault? Because of the superior Speed and Strafing abilities, as well as the larger SMG clip. Plus, I could use the Minmatar Assault for more than just AV, while the Amarr Logi would only be good for Drop Uplinks. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6432	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:29:00 - [22] - Quote @Harpyja I don't think you should be talking about relying on gear to win. After all, you were one of the many tankers crying over how someone with a MLT Railgun can destroy you, and how people with low tier gear [MLT] should not be able to threaten your tank. Also, you hide in an HAV as your main profession. Anything involving skill does not concern you, nor is it possible for you to call someone out on a lack of such without it becoming hypocrisy. This is going to be a long one, so please bear with me. Thanks. Quote: Profile Dampening - You need profile dampening to get under 36db. Otherwise you won't be able to sneak up on any HAV that's running an Active Scanner. Kinetic Catalyzation - Have you ever tried to strafe an 80GJ Ion Cannon? Have you ever tried to run around a corner to prevent getting rick rolled by one? That speed is important. Minmatar Assault Dropsuits - That 5% reduction to Light Weapon CPU/PG cost per level is why you need it. A 25% reduction to CPU/PG cost can (and will) become your best friend. Also, the M/1 Series would allow you to get the work done. If you like running around with Base HP, less offensive power than a Starter Fit, and No Assault Swarm Launcher. Swarm Launcher Proficiency - Every % counts. What if there was a skill that increased Shield Resistance by 3% per level? Would you only train it to level IV, or would you max it out? Swarm Launcher Ammo Count - Do I really need to explain this? Without this skill, you only have 2 clips (which isn't much for a Swarm Launcher) before you have to retreat to cover for ammo. Having this is important so that you aren't forced to be tied down to a Nanohive, and the skill only gives you 1 Swarm per level so Level V is key. Sub-Machine Gun Operation - Right. So your using a STD SMG which means that unless your in a heavy suit, my ~~Combat~~ hell, any of my rifles, would have killed you about 4 times over before you could kill me once. Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency - It's the only way to get my hands on that Ishukone ASMG. The price of the ADV version of my AV suit is 88,320 ISK. If you wish to pass your critique on it, then see this fitting here. If you wish to modify the SP total to account for what you claim to be simple neccisties, you may do that as well. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1967	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:31:00 - [23] - Quote My AV suit costs 50k, I have RE's and 3 nanohives, and I drive myself around in a LAV that costs 20k (so entire fit is 70k). You're doing it wrong. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6433	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:42:00 - [24] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: My AV suit costs 50k, I have RE's and 3 nanohives, and I drive myself around in a LAV that costs 20k (so entire fit is 70k). You're doing it wrong. I had a tank that only cost 500k back in 1.6. The entire tanking community was doing it wrong. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
The Attorney General 2531	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:46:00 - [25] - Quote Atiim wrote: @The Attorney General I die 3-4 times fighting a vehicle because of infantry running around with Rifles, Cloaked Scouts, Snipers, and just about anything else that's AP in this game. Unlike Forge Gunners, I don't get my results by camping on a tower. What do I do? The same thing every person tanking shields would do. Duck for cover and wait for their shields to regen. You'd probably die anyways if someone broke into your armor with only 135HP. Why Minmatar Assault? Because of the superior Speed and Strafing abilities, as well as the larger SMG clip. Plus, I could use the Minmatar Assault for more than just AV, while the Amarr Logi would only be good for Drop Uplinks. AV guy dies to infantry. Sounds about right. Maybe you should learn to teamwork and you wouldn't be so mad. Nice jab at FG users. Not like there weapon isn't functioning properly right now or anything. Nice to see you are such a scrub that you hate on your AV brethren who have to aim. Amarr logi is only good for uplinks? Clearly those equipment slots can hold other handy things for taking out tanks, or are you unable to see past the bonus? All around, the Amarr logi is a better AV suit than the Min assault. Since you are not in the suit for the bonus, you can spec ot advanced for the third equipment slot and make a cheap serviceable version for cheap with 90% effectiveness of the proto. I know you don't know how to tank, and clearly you can't AV, so what exactly have you been doing in your time playing this game? Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1527	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:59:00 - [26] - Quote Atiim wrote: @Harpyja I don't think you should be talking about relying on gear to win. After all, you were one of the many tankers crying over how someone with a MLT Railgun can destroy you, and how people with low tier gear [MLT] should not be able to threaten your tank. Also, you hide in an HAV as your main profession. Anything involving skill does not concern you, nor is it possible for you to call someone out on a lack of such without it becoming hypocrisy. This is going to be a long one, so please bear with me. Thanks. Quote: Profile Dampening - You need profile dampening to get under 36db. Otherwise you won't be able to sneak up on any HAV that's running an Active Scanner. Kinetic Catalyzation - Have you ever tried to strafe an 80GJ Ion Cannon? Have you ever tried to run around a corner to prevent getting rick rolled by one? That speed is important. Minmatar Assault Dropsuits - That 5% reduction to Light Weapon CPU/PG cost per level is why you need it. A 25% reduction to CPU/PG cost can (and will) become your best friend. Also, the M/1 Series would allow you to get the work done. If you like running around with Base HP, less offensive power than a Starter Fit, and No Assault Swarm Launcher. Swarm Launcher Proficiency - Every % counts. What if there was a skill that increased Shield Resistance by 3% per level? Would you only train it to level IV, or would you max it out? Swarm Launcher Ammo Count - Do I really need to explain this? Without this skill, you only have 2 clips (which isn't much for a Swarm Launcher) before you have to retreat to cover for ammo. Having this is important so that you aren't forced to be tied down to a Nanohive, and the skill only gives you 1 Swarm per level so Level V is key. Sub-Machine Gun Operation - Right. So your using a STD SMG which means that unless your in a heavy suit, my ~~Combat~~ hell, any of my rifles, would have killed you about 4 times over before you could kill me once. Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency - It's the only way to get my hands on that Ishukone ASMG. The price of the ADV version of my AV suit is 88,320 ISK. If you wish to pass your critique on it, then see this fitting here. If you wish to modify the SP total to account for what you claim to be simple neccisties, you may do that as well. Ugh, why do I continue arguing with you. The problem with having MLT stuff as good as PRO stuff is that there's close to no benefit of SP investment over no SP investment. It's SP investment that should count, not so much on gear. You have kept all of your passive skills while we have lost almost all of our passive skills. The only way to separate us now is on gear itself. The way I tank probably requires more skill than you have ever used. Screw all those blaster/railgun tanks that bum-rush everything and win. Missiles require true skill. I have to play tactically and have great situational awareness to be able to successfully ambush another tank. If I encounter a hardened shield tank, I have to either stalk it or dance with it to wait out its hardener. Please don't talk to me about skill again because you clearly don't know what it requires to be a successful missile tanker. I've yet to lose to a single missile tank because they all think it's easy when it's not. Also, I have an alt that's an Amarr Assault with maxed out armor upgrades, near maxed out shield upgrades, ScR prof 3, etc., so your whole statement just falls apart. Now, profile dampening is a luxury. Not every tank has an active scanner either. Plus scanners have cooldowns, so you should try to sneak up on it while it's on cooldown. Kinetic catalyzation is also a luxury. You shouldn't be right next to the tank in the first place. Minmatar Assault at 5. Please tell me, why is that -25% reduction so important now? You didn't have it before, so it's a luxury now. If PG and CPU values changed, sure, but they haven't. Also, do you need the assault SL? The only proto SL I've seen has been the Wiyrkomi SL, and it has shown itself on the killfeed a fair amount of times. SL proficiency 4 is just as good as 5. If you rely on such a tiny amount of % to get your job done, then you should rethink how you do it in the first place. And yes, I'd probably just put that shield skill up to 4 instead of 5. In 1.6 where the skill provided 2% resistance per level, I had it at 4 because all of the SP to get it to 5 were not worth it. I finally got it when I had nothing else to skill up. SL ammo count; just pick a good spot, throw down a couple of nanohives, and fire away. Or is it too hard for you to play tactically and find such a spot? SMG: tell that to all of those people I've dropped with my standard SMG. The price of my Gunnlogi is 560k. I average about 5-10 tank kills for every tank I lose. The average tank I kill costs no more than 80k. Therefore, your statement that you die multiple times to kill one tank is flawed, because I also lose about the same amount of ISK as that which I destroy. Now, stop wasting both your time and my time. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1527	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:04:00 - [27] - Quote Also, need I remind you that proxies work very well? I'm surprised that proxies are rarely seen on the field. That means you don't even need to spend all that SP on SLs and stuff. The only SP's you need to invest for AV go into proxies. All of the other SP you have go where ever you want into whichever role you want. Because with proxies, you sacrifice next to nothing (aside from investing the SP that could've gone somewhere else). During one week of play, I got destroyed by proxies twice. The first time through 3975 shield and 1500 armor, the second time through 5300 shield and 1500 armor. The total amount of battles where I encountered proxies was probably no more than four. I'd say that that's a rather high success rate, wouldn't you agree? "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 876	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:05:00 - [28] - Quote Atiim wrote: @Henchmen21 I do. But a better question would be "who uses prototype anything on a vehicle?" There's something satisfying in killing tanks with a Particle Cannon, probably because it means the rest of my fit isn't as, for the lack of a better term scrubby. 1.8 better then 1.7 but not by much. Henchmen21: Infantry Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1527	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:07:00 - [29] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: Atiim wrote: @Henchmen21 I do. But a better question would be "who uses prototype anything on a vehicle?" There's something satisfying in killing tanks with a Particle Cannon, probably because it means the rest of my fit isn't as, for the lack of a better term scrubby. Using any kind of large railgun makes your tank scrubby. The reason I use proto is because it sets me apart from the 0 SP wannabe's, because almost all of our passive skills have been taken away. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Captain Equestria Sooper Speshul Ponee Fors Dropsuit Samurai 3	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:13:00 - [30] - Quote Tanks are starting to balance a little more...but only a little. One HMG heavy was able to lock down an objective all on his own, and attract all blueberry attention without dying because he would fire at us from his Soma, and the three occasions where I got on top of him to lay RE's, he exited to mow me and re-entered, like any true scrub. None of the other blueberry's took the chance at him when he was vulnerable. These things shouldn't be happening. There is a lot that we don't consider that make them OP a ton. Like the ability of reps negating damage, and users exiting and re-entering vehicles in seconds.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9272	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:18:00 - [31] - Quote Should a canny and careful AVer die 3-4 times? Probably not. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Scheneighnay McBob Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4672	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:25:00 - [32] - Quote Highly unnecessary fit. Not to mention a commando mk.0 would be better. I'm from the weird side of the internet
Scheneighnay McBob Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4672	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:27:00 - [33] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: Who uses full proto gear to take out tanks? i use c-1 scout, cloak, and f/45s. Don't even need the f/45's basic remotes will do. I always soften them up with basic packed nades for good measure anyway. F/45's would be worth it if you got four upon spawning. f/45s aren't even an upgrade if you don't have a nanohive. I'm from the weird side of the internet
MINA Longstrike 2Shitz 1Giggle United Brotherhood Alliance 428	Posted - 2014.04.06 21:35:00 - [34] - Quote Atiim wrote: In case somebody wanted to know the cost of being a maxed out AVer (SP & ISK Wise), I figured I'd put this here. ISK Price Quote: Assault mk.0 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher 1x Ishukone Assault Sub-Machine Gun 1x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenade 3x Complex Damage Modifiers 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Complex CPU Upgrade 1x Complex PG Upgrade Here, we have a fully decked, top-of-the-line AV fitting. It's got all of the tools an AVer needs to get the job done, and it's 3rd best AV fitting in the game. Based on my experience, an AVer using this suit can expect to die about 3-4 times on average. So now what seems like a measly 227,490 ISK is actually a cost ranging 682,470 ISK - 909,960 ISK. SP Price Now let's address the SP side. These are all of the skills needed to be a beastly AVer with the Swarm Launcher. By having these skills, you are self-sufficient and do not need to rely on constant support from a squad or need to be near an ammo source 24/7. You can even Strafe an 80GJ Blaster. Quote: Dropsuit Command II Minmatar Medium Dropsuits III Minmatar Assault Dropsuits V Dropsuit Upgrades II Dropsuit Core Upgrades II Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades V Kinetic Catalyzation III Electronics V Engineering V Profile Dampening V Nanocircuitry V Weaponry III Explosives III Grenadier V Demolitions V Light Weapon Operation IV Sidearm Operation II Swarm Launcher Operation V Swarm Launcher Proficiency V Swarm Launcher Ammo Count V Sub-Machine Gun Operation V Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency I Total Cost: 15,222,620 SP -HAND I like how you tossed a bunch of unnecessary crap in there to artificially bloat the SP requirement
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9277	Posted - 2014.04.06 21:47:00 - [35] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Atiim wrote: In case somebody wanted to know the cost of being a maxed out AVer (SP & ISK Wise), I figured I'd put this here. ISK Price Quote: Assault mk.0 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher 1x Ishukone Assault Sub-Machine Gun 1x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenade 3x Complex Damage Modifiers 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Complex CPU Upgrade 1x Complex PG Upgrade Here, we have a fully decked, top-of-the-line AV fitting. It's got all of the tools an AVer needs to get the job done, and it's 3rd best AV fitting in the game. Based on my experience, an AVer using this suit can expect to die about 3-4 times on average. So now what seems like a measly 227,490 ISK is actually a cost ranging 682,470 ISK - 909,960 ISK. SP Price Now let's address the SP side. These are all of the skills needed to be a beastly AVer with the Swarm Launcher. By having these skills, you are self-sufficient and do not need to rely on constant support from a squad or need to be near an ammo source 24/7. You can even Strafe an 80GJ Blaster. Quote: Dropsuit Command II Minmatar Medium Dropsuits III Minmatar Assault Dropsuits V Dropsuit Upgrades II Dropsuit Core Upgrades II Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades V Kinetic Catalyzation III Electronics V Engineering V Profile Dampening V Nanocircuitry V Weaponry III Explosives III Grenadier V Demolitions V Light Weapon Operation IV Sidearm Operation II Swarm Launcher Operation V Swarm Launcher Proficiency V Swarm Launcher Ammo Count V Sub-Machine Gun Operation V Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency I Total Cost: 15,222,620 SP -HAND I like how you tossed a bunch of unnecessary crap in there to artificially bloat the SP requirement Mmmm I should work out what skills I need to be an adaptable tankers like this...... lets start with every Turret Skill maxed, inclusive of small turrets, and all core skills inclusive of shield and armour even if I dont use any of those modules at all...... "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
The Attorney General 2533	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:13:00 - [36] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Mmmm I should work out what skills I need to be an adaptable tankers like this...... lets start with every Turret Skill maxed, inclusive of small turrets, and all core skills inclusive of shield and armour even if I dont use any of those modules at all...... 51,015,760 with engineering and electronics maxed out. But that doesn't include the dropsuit needed to carry around proto uplinks, and a core focused rep tool along with a proto weapon and sidearm. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6436	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:28:00 - [37] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I like how you tossed a bunch of unnecessary crap in there to artificially bloat the SP requirement I also like how you presented a reason as to why any of that stuff is unnecessary. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
jerrmy12 kahoalii 889	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:30:00 - [38] - Quote Atiim wrote: In case somebody wanted to know the cost of being a maxed out AVer (SP & ISK Wise), I figured I'd put this here. ISK Price Quote: Assault mk.0 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher 1x Ishukone Assault Sub-Machine Gun 1x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenade 3x Complex Damage Modifiers 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Complex CPU Upgrade 1x Complex PG Upgrade Here, we have a fully decked, top-of-the-line AV fitting. It's got all of the tools an AVer needs to get the job done, and it's 3rd best AV fitting in the game. Based on my experience, an AVer using this suit can expect to die about 3-4 times on average. So now what seems like a measly 227,490 ISK is actually a cost ranging 682,470 ISK - 909,960 ISK. SP Price Now let's address the SP side. These are all of the skills needed to be a beastly AVer with the Swarm Launcher. By having these skills, you are self-sufficient and do not need to rely on constant support from a squad or need to be near an ammo source 24/7. You can even Strafe an 80GJ Blaster. Quote: Dropsuit Command II Minmatar Medium Dropsuits III Minmatar Assault Dropsuits V Dropsuit Upgrades II Dropsuit Core Upgrades II Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades V Kinetic Catalyzation III Electronics V Engineering V Profile Dampening V Nanocircuitry V Weaponry III Explosives III Grenadier V Demolitions V Light Weapon Operation IV Sidearm Operation II Swarm Launcher Operation V Swarm Launcher Proficiency V Swarm Launcher Ammo Count V Sub-Machine Gun Operation V Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency I Total Cost: 15,222,620 SP -HAND Itz your fault for using proto everything Closed beta vet Tears, sweet delicious tears
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6436	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:31:00 - [39] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: 51,015,760 with engineering and electronics maxed out. But that doesn't include the dropsuit needed to carry around proto uplinks, and a core focused rep tool along with a proto weapon and sidearm. You could just fit a mobile CRU, and Complex Armor Repairers negate the need for a Repair Tool, which even then you'd only need Level IV because the BDR-8 Axis Tool repairs vehicles just as well, with no downsides either. Also, you have a Starter Fit. 0 SP, and doesn't affect your ability to tank. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9278	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:34:00 - [40] - Quote Atiim wrote: The Attorney General wrote: 51,015,760 with engineering and electronics maxed out. But that doesn't include the dropsuit needed to carry around proto uplinks, and a core focused rep tool along with a proto weapon and sidearm. You could just fit a mobile CRU, and Complex Armor Repairers negate the need for a Repair Tool, which even then you'd only need Level IV because the BDR-8 Axis Tool repairs vehicles just as well, with no downsides either. Also, you have a Starter Fit. 0 SP, and doesn't affect your ability to tank. So you can afford to pump up your example with unnecessary skills but when I point out that I can do it as well you simplify my build to the point of actual efficiency......? WTF man I thought we were being ridiculous up in here? "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two

Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6436	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:38:00 - [41] - Quote True Adamance wrote: So you can afford to pump up your example with unnecessary skills but when I point out that I can do it as well you simplify my build to the point of actual efficiency......? WTF man I thought we were being ridiculous up in here? Well considering how everything I listed actually makes you better at AV, I don't really see how it's unnecessary. Attorney on the other hand, is using things that don't actually affect your ability to use your HAV effectively. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 399	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:41:00 - [42] - Quote Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: So you can afford to pump up your example with unnecessary skills but when I point out that I can do it as well you simplify my build to the point of actual efficiency......? WTF man I thought we were being ridiculous up in here? Well considering how everything I listed actually makes you better at AV, I don't really see how it's unnecessary. Attorney on the other hand, is using things that don't actually affect your ability to use your HAV effectively. Technically (for example) an SMG won't help you be a great AVer, so I think that's the point he's trying to make.
THEAMAZING POTHEAD Nyain San Dirt Nap Squad. 1062	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:45:00 - [43] - Quote Av no longer exists in this game. There is only railguns and blasters. Scrubs that can't do either use jihad jeeps. Forges are only good for rooftop support. Swarms and av nades are jokes and anyone using them should feel bad. Because they suck more than a sniper, at least a sniper gets a few kills and doesn't die. A swarmer does nothing except keep away uber crappy tankers for a half minute. Hardeners are still OP because of stacking 3 shield hardeners, while railguns are now even stronger because of the nerf, while having 300m range is almost helpful to them, because it let's rail tankers move up without getting redline railed or installation railed since they usually don't run hardeners. Ads's are probably the most well off though because of the range nerf. Your post is making me facepalm very hard right now.
jerrmy12 kahoalii 890	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:47:00 - [44] - Quote Atiim wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I like how you tossed a bunch of unnecessary crap in there to artificially bloat the SP requirement I also like how you presented a reason as to why any of that stuff is unnecessary. Shield mods are nit av Damage mods are not av Biotics are not av Smg lvl 5 is not av Ammo count is your fault So much unnecessary crap. Closed beta vet Tears, sweet delicious tears
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 191	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:50:00 - [45] - Quote I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this.
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 191	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:51:00 - [46] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Atiim wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I like how you tossed a bunch of unnecessary crap in there to artificially bloat the SP requirement I also like how you presented a reason as to why any of that stuff is unnecessary. Shield mods are nit av Damage mods are not av Biotics are not av Smg lvl 5 is not av Ammo count is your fault So much unnecessary crap. Go ahead and try it without them skills. I bet you die more.
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 401	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:54:00 - [47] - Quote THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote: Av no longer exists in this game. There is only railguns and blasters. Scrubs that can't do either use jihad jeeps. Forges are only good for rooftop support. Swarms and av nades are jokes and anyone using them should feel bad. Because they suck more than a sniper, at least a sniper gets a few kills and doesn't die. A swarmer does nothing except keep away uber crappy tankers for a half minute. Hardeners are still OP because of stacking 3 shield hardeners, while railguns are now even stronger because of the nerf, while having 300m range is almost helpful to them, because it let's rail tankers move up without getting redline railed or installation railed since they usually don't run hardeners. Ads's are probably the most well off though because of the range nerf. Nyain San opinion, disregarded.
jerrmy12 kahoalii 890	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:57:00 - [48] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Atiim wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I like how you tossed a bunch of unnecessary crap in there to artificially bloat the SP requirement I also like how you presented a reason as to why any of that stuff is unnecessary. Shield mods are nit av Damage mods are not av Biotics are not av Smg lvl 5 is not av Ammo count is your fault So much unnecessary crap. Go ahead and try it without them skills. I bet you die more. Yea um no, thise arent av, maybe exept damage mods but everything else is for your general drop suits so it doesn't count Closed beta vet Tears, sweet delicious tears
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6437	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:57:00 - [49] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Technically (for example) an SMG won't help you be a great AVer, so I think that's the point he's trying to make. Well they do help you fend off against hostile infantry, which does make the job easier. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9279	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:58:00 - [50] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do...but I'm not fool enough to try it solo. If I want an HAV dead it will die, our squad will co-ordinate a small AV team to hunt it down and destroy it. Why else would I play a team based game if I didn't want to work with a team.....and before you start accusing me of being a solo tanker I am not. I use on my fits and require 2 gunners to be fully effective against well fit solo battle tanks. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two

Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6437	Posted - 2014.04.06 22:59:00 - [51] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Yea um no, thise arent av, maybe exept damage mods but everything else is for your general drop suits so it doesn't count With that logic just about every Module & Core Skill wouldn't count when tallying up the cost of maxing out a vehicle, as they can be used for your general vehicle. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 402	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:00:00 - [52] - Quote Atiim wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Technically (for example) an SMG won't help you be a great AVer, so I think that's the point he's trying to make. Well they do help you fend off against hostile infantry, which does make the job easier. Well if you think about it, grabbing a proto HMG heavy suit to deal with infantry hugging your quadruple damage modded sica helps as well.
jerrmy12 kahoalii 890	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:11:00 - [53] - Quote Atiim wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Yea um no, thise arent av, maybe exept damage mods but everything else is for your general drop suits so it doesn't count With that logic just about every Module & Core Skill wouldn't count when tallying up the cost of maxing out a vehicle, as they can be used for your general vehicle. Exept vehicke skills are only for 1 thing, vehicles, but shiekd mods arent av restricted Closed beta vet Tears, sweet delicious tears
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6438	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:11:00 - [54] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I do...but I'm not fool enough to try it solo. If I want an HAV dead it will die, our squad will co-ordinate a small AV team to hunt it down and destroy it. Why else would I play a team based game if I didn't want to work with a team.....and before you start accusing me of being a solo tanker I am not. I use on my fits and require 2 gunners to be fully effective against well fit solo battle tanks. I don't know. Maybe because you don't always have the time nor will to squad up everytime you play DUST? Also, you may not be a solo tanker, but what about the tanker your trying to kill The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Pvt Numnutz R 0 N 1 N 1063	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:14:00 - [55] - Quote Hmm interesting, although you could debate the dropsuit command and such because that also applies to other suits so a ground pounder would probably already have a few of these. That aside when I get home I'll pot up how much sp I have invested into my dropship.
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 191	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:15:00 - [56] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do...but I'm not fool enough to try it solo. If I want an HAV dead it will die, our squad will co-ordinate a small AV team to hunt it down and destroy it. Why else would I play a team based game if I didn't want to work with a team.....and before you start accusing me of being a solo tanker I am not. I use on my fits and require 2 gunners to be fully effective against well fit solo battle tanks. What about those that dont have a squad? They should not be allowed to kill vehicles? 1 person should be able to kill a tank. Im not suggesting a militia swarm should kill a well fit tank. But a proto swarm should be able to destroy a tank in 4-5 shots . Regardless of your modules you are still only using a standard tank. If proto tanks came out tomorrow they would not die with the way av is. A squad of av would struggle. You must know this.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6438	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:23:00 - [57] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Except vehicle skills are only for 1 thing, vehicles, but shield mods aren't av restricted Only 1 Thing? Really? Baloch Onikuma Methana Saga Viper Gorgon Grimsnes Myron Incubus Python Madrugar Gunnlogi That seems to be more than 1 thing to me. Also, where do you see Shield Modules included in that list? The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Void Echo Total Extinction 2394	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:24:00 - [58] - Quote wow.... due to the replies im reading, id say Atiim has finally overstayed his welcome on the vehicle/av balance situation, so far the community feels that tanks and av are one step away from full balance. (they shouldn't have nerfed hardeners, they shouldv done the part of making sure that if you activate one hardener, the rest of the hardeners on your tank get activated as well thus emphasizing on the waves of opportunity.) im surprised spkr and takashiro haven't appeared yet. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6438	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:25:00 - [59] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Hmm interesting, although you could debate the dropsuit command and such because that also applies to other suits so a ground pounder would probably already have a few of these. That aside when I get home I'll pot up how much sp I have invested into my dropship. But then you'd also have to exclude Vehicle Command, as it applies to other vehicles as well. Also, if you've memorized what skills you have, you can use the SP chart on the right to pot it up right now. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6438	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:26:00 - [60] - Quote Void Echo wrote: wow.... due to the replies im reading, id say Atiim has finally overstayed his welcome on the vehicle/av balance situation, so far the community feels that tanks and av are one step away from full balance. Sigh This thread is not about balance... Not even in the slightest. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND

Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 654	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:26:00 - [61] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do...but I'm not fool enough to try it solo. If I want an HAV dead it will die, our squad will co-ordinate a small AV team to hunt it down and destroy it. Why else would I play a team based game if I didn't want to work with a team.....and before you start accusing me of being a solo tanker I am not. I use on my fits and require 2 gunners to be fully effective against well fit solo battle tanks. Hence the problem currently with AV and HAV's. The HAV user gets to have the option. He's perfectly capable of fitting an Anti Tank HAV, that is JUST as effective at killing infantry and all while doing it solo. With ultimate ease. Situational awareness isn't even a necessity. You can use it at its most basic level to survive any situation that doesn't include multiple HAV's. The AV user is unable to ignore more then half of the assets on the battlefield because he isn't in armor granting him almost total immunity. So he will be more at risk, in far more situations then an HAV would ever be in, under almost any circumstance. And guess what buddy, if the disparity is this large when its a 1 on 1 scenario, multiplying it with squad mates doesn't magically balance it out. It just makes the situation even worse.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9279	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:27:00 - [62] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do...but I'm not fool enough to try it solo. If I want an HAV dead it will die, our squad will co-ordinate a small AV team to hunt it down and destroy it. Why else would I play a team based game if I didn't want to work with a team.....and before you start accusing me of being a solo tanker I am not. I use on my fits and require 2 gunners to be fully effective against well fit solo battle tanks. What about those that dont have a squad? They should not be allowed to kill vehicles? 1 person should be able to kill a tank. Im not suggesting a militia swarm should kill a well fit tank. But a proto swarm should be able to destroy a tank in 4-5 shots . Regardless of your modules you are still only using a standard tank. If proto tanks came out tomorrow they would not die with the way av is. A squad of av would struggle. You must know this. Frankly speaking then I don't feel like those without the desire to use team work should benefit from buffs to their equipment because they don't care to play with a team. When I get 3 people in my HAV should I get buffs to it? Nope I don't....1 enemy in an HAV can still kill us, 1 AVer can with effort still kill us. You also cannot equate the tiering of vehicles vs AV. You have 4 tiers, 5 on the forge, we vehicle users have 2. You must consider MLT as STD, and STD as ADV. Now if you are demanding buffs and nerfs based on tiering you neither deserve or should get one until all tiers of vehicles are released to be balanced around AV. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Void Echo Total Extinction 2394	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:31:00 - [63] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. ok on that regard I have to put my 2 cents in. in what universe is a human size object possibly smaller given more power than a nearly building size machine designed for mass destruction? because of the fact that adv and proto tank hulls haven't existed in dust since the uprising build came along, standard tanks have had to become the new proto tanks, STD tanks are the highest level of vehicles you can get for ground deployment, if you don't like that a std tank is more powerful than a std dropsuit you have balance issues. also, then you should advocate of adv and proto tank hulls being put back into the game so the std tanks you hate so much will go down almost as easy as you want them to without causing the vehicle community to slip into near extinction again. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:33:00 - [64] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do...but I'm not fool enough to try it solo. If I want an HAV dead it will die, our squad will co-ordinate a small AV team to hunt it down and destroy it. Why else would I play a team based game if I didn't want to work with a team.....and before you start accusing me of being a solo tanker I am not. I use on my fits and require 2 gunners to be fully effective against well fit solo battle tanks. What about those that dont have a squad? They should not be allowed to kill vehicles? 1 person should be able to kill a tank. Im not suggesting a militia swarm should kill a well fit tank. But a proto swarm should be able to destroy a tank in 4-5 shots . Regardless of your modules you are still only using a standard tank. If proto tanks came out tomorrow they would not die with the way av is. A squad of av would struggle. You must know this. Frankly speaking then I don't feel like those without the desire to use team work should benefit from buffs to their equipment because they don't care to play with a team. When I get 3 people in my HAV should I get buffs to it? Nope I don't....1 enemy in an HAV can still kill us, 1 AVer can with effort still kill us. You also cannot equate the tiering of vehicles vs AV. You have 4 tiers, 5 on the forge, we vehicle users have 2. You must consider MLT as STD, and STD as ADV. Now if you are demanding buffs and nerfs based on tiering you neither deserve or should get one until all tiers of vehicles are released to be balanced around AV. Again, using your own words to show you there is a disparity. You had to add "with effort" on the AV side. Because it's not nearly as much effort to kill an HAV with another HAV. If there's not as much effort to kill in an HAV, why in god's name should AV have to put more of an effort, in a FAR more dangerous situation and it be fair?
Void Echo Total Extinction 2394	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:34:00 - [65] - Quote Atiim wrote: Void Echo wrote: wow.... due to the replies im reading, id say Atiim has finally overstayed his welcome on the vehicle/av balance situation, so far the community feels that tanks and av are one step away from full balance. Sigh This thread is not about balance... Not even in the slightest. I fail to see that, look at the posts by true and echo. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Void Echo Total Extinction 2394	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:36:00 - [66] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do...but I'm not fool enough to try it solo. If I want an HAV dead it will die, our squad will co-ordinate a small AV team to hunt it down and destroy it. Why else would I play a team based game if I didn't want to work with a team.....and before you start accusing me of being a solo tanker I am not. I use on my fits and require 2 gunners to be fully effective against well fit solo battle tanks. What about those that dont have a squad? They should not be allowed to kill vehicles? 1 person should be able to kill a tank. Im not suggesting a militia swarm should kill a well fit tank. But a proto swarm should be able to destroy a tank in 4-5 shots . Regardless of your modules you are still only using a standard tank. If proto tanks came out tomorrow they would not die with the way av is. A squad of av would struggle. You must know this. Frankly speaking then I don't feel like those without the desire to use team work should benefit from buffs to their equipment because they don't care to play with a team. When I get 3 people in my HAV should I get buffs to it? Nope I don't....1 enemy in an HAV can still kill us, 1 AVer can with effort still kill us. You also cannot equate the tiering of vehicles vs AV. You have 4 tiers, 5 on the forge, we vehicle users have 2. You must consider MLT as STD, and STD as ADV. Now if you are demanding buffs and nerfs based on tiering you neither deserve or should get one until all tiers of vehicles are released to be balanced around AV. Again, using your own words to show you there is a disparity. You had to add "with effort" on the AV side. Because it's not nearly as much effort to kill an HAV with another HAV. If there's not as much effort to kill in an HAV, why in god's name should AV have to put more of an effort, in a FAR more dangerous situation and it be fair? that's like asking why man needs to reproduce using both genders when god can create life from nothing. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Pvt Numnutz R 0 N 1 N 1063	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:38:00 - [67] - Quote Atiim wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Except vehicle skills are only for 1 thing, vehicles, but shield mods aren't av restricted Only 1 Thing? Really? Baloch Onikuma Methana Saga Viper Gorgon Grimsnes Myron Incubus Python Madrugar Gunnlogi That seems to be more than 1 thing to me. Also, where do you see Shield Modules included in that list? I think what jerrmy was trying to say is that vehicle skills only apply to vehicles, so if I spec into vehicle shields I can only use them on the vehicles you listed above. Where as dropsuit command, shield skills, core skills and armor skills apply to all the racial dropsuits. What little I have in dropships applies to all of my dropships and future dropsuits I skill into. So skilling into some of the things in your OP will also my scout, my assault, my heavy etc. My vehicle skills will only help my vehicles and if I want a good dropship I have to skill into those skills regardless of the vehicle I choose.
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:39:00 - [68] - Quote Void Echo wrote: that's like asking why man needs to reproduce using both genders when god can create life from nothing. Are you even reading what you are typing, or are you just drunk?
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9280	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:39:00 - [69] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do...but I'm not fool enough to try it solo. If I want an HAV dead it will die, our squad will co-ordinate a small AV team to hunt it down and destroy it. Why else would I play a team based game if I didn't want to work with a team.....and before you start accusing me of being a solo tanker I am not. I use on my fits and require 2 gunners to be fully effective against well fit solo battle tanks. What about those that dont have a squad? They should not be allowed to kill vehicles? 1 person should be able to kill a tank. Im not suggesting a militia swarm should kill a well fit tank. But a proto swarm should be able to destroy a tank in 4-5 shots . Regardless of your modules you are still only using a standard tank. If proto tanks came out tomorrow they would not die with the way av is. A squad of av would struggle. You must know this. Frankly speaking then I don't feel like those without the desire to use team work should benefit from buffs to their equipment because they don't care to play with a team. When I get 3 people in my HAV should I get buffs to it? Nope I don't....1 enemy in an HAV can still kill us, 1 AVer can with effort still kill us. You also cannot equate the tiering of vehicles vs AV. You have 4 tiers, 5 on the forge, we vehicle users have 2. You must consider MLT as STD, and STD as ADV. Now if you are demanding buffs and nerfs based on tiering you neither deserve or should get one until all tiers of vehicles are released to be balanced around AV. Again, using your own words to show you there is a disparity. You had to add "with effort" on the AV side. Because it's not nearly as much effort to kill an HAV with another HAV. If there's not as much effort to kill in an HAV, why in god's name should AV have to put more of an effort, in a FAR more dangerous situation and it be fair? I am saying that yeah I can take down HAV...but taking down a tank should never be easy, otherwise it would be boring. Are yiy saying you want to be able to break the Vehicle/AV balance by destroying the most expensive, heavily armoured, and durable vehicle easily? See how easy it is to strawman people? Please refrain from attempting such in future. It contributes so little to the discussion, you assuming you know what I am attempting to explain. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6439	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:40:00 - [70] - Quote Void Echo wrote: because of the fact that adv and proto tank hulls haven't existed in dust since the uprising build came along, standard tanks have had to become the new proto tanks, STD tanks are the highest level of vehicles you can get for ground deployment, if you don't like that a std tank is more powerful than a std dropsuit you have balance issues. also, then you should advocate of adv and proto tank hulls being put back into the game so the std tanks you hate so much will go down almost as easy as you want them to without causing the vehicle community to slip into near extinction again. If we introduce ADV and PRO vehicles, then we'd either have to make both ADV/PRO AV either stupidly overpowered; which would make running anything other than PRO pointless and cause the V/AV roles to stagnate, as they would cost too much SP to actually be worth a d@mn. Or we'd have to make the difference minimal at best, which would negate the purpose of having tiers in the first place The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND

Void Echo Total Extinction 2395	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:40:00 - [71] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: that's like asking why man needs to reproduce using both genders when god can create life from nothing. Are you even reading what you are typing, or are you just drunk? a bit of both. the comparison is essentially the same thing. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6439	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:42:00 - [72] - Quote Void Echo wrote: I fail to see that, look at the posts by true and echo. Well this thread derailed quickly. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Void Echo Total Extinction 2395	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:42:00 - [73] - Quote Atiim wrote: Void Echo wrote: because of the fact that adv and proto tank hulls haven't existed in dust since the uprising build came along, standard tanks have had to become the new proto tanks, STD tanks are the highest level of vehicles you can get for ground deployment, if you don't like that a std tank is more powerful than a std dropsuit you have balance issues. also, then you should advocate of adv and proto tank hulls being put back into the game so the std tanks you hate so much will go down almost as easy as you want them to without causing the vehicle community to slip into near extinction again. If we introduce ADV and PRO vehicles, then we'd either have to make both ADV/PRO AV either stupidly overpowered; which would make running anything other than PRO pointless and cause the V/AV roles to stagnate, as they would cost too much SP to actually be worth a d@mn. Or we'd have to make the difference minimal at best, which would negate the purpose of having tiers in the first place at least by the tiercide will actually make sense due to the amount of content, if tiercide were to be implemented now, it would fall apart because of the lack of content we have. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 93	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:43:00 - [74] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: I say again, if you want to be great with cheap AV, go commando. You don't make compromises, and that reload speed and extra damage helps a lot. totally agree. Min commando with swarm launcher and CR make for an effective AV and AI fit. The racial dmg bonus applies to both weapons so you can run without dmg mods (even lvl four gets you close to the same extra dmg as two complex dmg mods). 20% reload (lvl 4) is huge given how long the SL takes to reload. Lower HP compared to other commando suits, but the extra speed is nice for finding cover from tank fire. The only thing I want on my commando suit is a grenade slot so I can have flux grenades to take down shields (the only thing I miss from my old assault or heavy AV fits pre-1.8). My adv suit has proto swarms and costs 54k isk. I have yet to create a cheap fit with my dren SL, but I imagine I could build a pretty good suit for cheap. Another poster mentioned running around with a forge gunner in a LAV. Love the idea.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6439	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:45:00 - [75] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I am saying that yeah I can take down HAV...but taking down a tank should never be easy, otherwise it would be boring. Are yiy saying you want to be able to break the Vehicle/AV balance by destroying the most expensive, heavily armoured, and durable vehicle easily? See how easy it is to strawman people? Please refrain from attempting such in future. It contributes so little to the discussion, you assuming you know what I am attempting to explain. He's saying that the effort required to destroy an HAV should be equal to the effort required to pilot an HAV. So yeah, basically with extreme ease. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Void Echo Total Extinction 2395	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:45:00 - [76] - Quote Atiim wrote: Void Echo wrote: I fail to see that, look at the posts by true and echo. Well this thread derailed quickly. yep... Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Void Echo Total Extinction 2395	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:48:00 - [77] - Quote Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I am saying that yeah I can take down HAV...but taking down a tank should never be easy, otherwise it would be boring. Are yiy saying you want to be able to break the Vehicle/AV balance by destroying the most expensive, heavily armoured, and durable vehicle easily? See how easy it is to strawman people? Please refrain from attempting such in future. It contributes so little to the discussion, you assuming you know what I am attempting to explain. He's saying that the effort required to destroy an HAV should be equal to the effort required to pilot an HAV. So yeah, basically with extreme ease. that would negate the purpose of having HAVs in battle in the first place. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:52:00 - [78] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I am saying that yeah I can take down HAV...but taking down a tank should never be easy, otherwise it would be boring. Are yiy saying you want to be able to break the Vehicle/AV balance by destroying the most expensive, heavily armoured, and durable vehicle easily? See how easy it is to strawman people? Please refrain from attempting such in future. It contributes so little to the discussion, you assuming you know what I am attempting to explain. And why shouldn't it be easy if I'm using your only weakness? I'm using guns designed to destroy vehicles. It's an ANTI - VEHICLE weapon. Pray tell me an FPS that's currently out that has one piece of machinery immune to most of the weapons in the game, takes a squad of multiple units to take down efficiently if they aren't using the same machine, and is it's own viable weakness. Cause that **** doesn't make any sense at all, in any form of balance. Why also is a tank able to be equally effective at AVing and AP, solo or not, yet you claim its fair that it should involve multiple infantry AV that have to gimp their AP power and drastically lower their ability to shrug off other infantry. Why should an HAV have the best of ALL worlds? Because it's got the name Heavy Attack Vehicle? Because you personally feel you should be safe inside a fantasy game since shelled out 200k more? I could care less what you "feel" a tank should be. I want a game centered around balance, not philosophical idealism. You know, rock paper scissors. The way the game was intended to be.
Pvt Numnutz R 0 N 1 N 1063	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:53:00 - [79] - Quote Atiim wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Hmm interesting, although you could debate the dropsuit command and such because that also applies to other suits so a ground pounder would probably already have a few of these. That aside when I get home I'll pot up how much sp I have invested into my dropship. But then you'd also have to exclude Vehicle Command, as it applies to other vehicles as well. Also, if you've memorized what skills you have, you can use the SP chart on the right to pot it up right now. Well maybe, anyone with any dropsuit could skill into this as you need at least two points in dropsuit command for any dropsuit. Even I have dropsuit command to 2. If you are going to skill into a dropship you need vehicle command to 3 I believe and you need it to 5 for havs. There isn't anything else you unlock except for those specific vehicles at each level. At dropsuit command 2 you unlock all racial medium frames. I'll include all the skills for my dropship as you did for your av fit in your op.
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2014.04.06 23:55:00 - [80] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I am saying that yeah I can take down HAV...but taking down a tank should never be easy, otherwise it would be boring. Are yiy saying you want to be able to break the Vehicle/AV balance by destroying the most expensive, heavily armoured, and durable vehicle easily? See how easy it is to strawman people? Please refrain from attempting such in future. It contributes so little to the discussion, you assuming you know what I am attempting to explain. He's saying that the effort required to destroy an HAV should be equal to the effort required to pilot an HAV. So yeah, basically with extreme ease. that would negate the purpose of having HAVs in battle in the first place. Why? Because you can die in an FPS game centered around clones dying and being resurrected eternally? Until this game has more diversity, HAV's need to balanced alongside infantry. That means one should pop just as easily as the others, and cost the same.

Void Echo Total Extinction 2395	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:04:00 - [81] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I am saying that yeah I can take down HAV...but taking down a tank should never be easy, otherwise it would be boring. Are yiy saying you want to be able to break the Vehicle/AV balance by destroying the most expensive, heavily armoured, and durable vehicle easily? See how easy it is to strawman people? Please refrain from attempting such in future. It contributes so little to the discussion, you assuming you know what I am attempting to explain. He's saying that the effort required to destroy an HAV should be equal to the effort required to pilot an HAV. So yeah, basically with extreme ease. that would negate the purpose of having HAVs in battle in the first place. Why? Because you can die in an FPS game centered around clones dying and being resurrected eternally? Until this game has more diversity, HAV's need to balanced alongside infantry. That means one should pop just as easily as the others, and cost the same. no, because when one sees an HAV compared to an infantry suit, they notice how an HAV is almost 5x the size of an infantry guy and thus logically, the HAV should have more power and efficiency that an infantry suit does. several upper hands that infantry has over vehicles is that infantry can hack objectives while vehicle operators cannot unless the exit the vehicle, another advantage is that vehicle cannot access closed and small areas, allowing infantry to gain the tactical advantage while vehicles are forced to stay in the open vulnerable to everything around it. if you make HAVs the same as dropsuits, you have effectively killed off the HAV from the game and this becomes cod where infantry are the gods once again instead of having every class in the game survivable and thus acquiring balance.. sorry dude but what your describing sounds like an exact copy of call of duty or battlefield. The reason why nobody cares that vehicles are weak in those games is because for COD and BF, vehicle use requires 0 personal investment and nobody gets gimped because they lost a personal asset while in dust you need personal investment in vehicles to even call in a vehicle let alone operate one. when vehicles are no longer in the skill tree and are freely given out like in bf and cod then il stop saying stuff about personal investment. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:14:00 - [82] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I am saying that yeah I can take down HAV...but taking down a tank should never be easy, otherwise it would be boring. Are yiy saying you want to be able to break the Vehicle/AV balance by destroying the most expensive, heavily armoured, and durable vehicle easily? See how easy it is to strawman people? Please refrain from attempting such in future. It contributes so little to the discussion, you assuming you know what I am attempting to explain. He's saying that the effort required to destroy an HAV should be equal to the effort required to pilot an HAV. So yeah, basically with extreme ease. that would negate the purpose of having HAVs in battle in the first place. Why? Because you can die in an FPS game centered around clones dying and being resurrected eternally? Until this game has more diversity, HAV's need to balanced alongside infantry. That means one should pop just as easily as the others, and cost the same. sorry dude but what your describing sounds like an exact copy of call of duty or battlefield. The reason why nobody cares that vehicles are weak in those games is because for COD and BF, vehicle use requires 0 personal investment and nobody gets gimped because they lost a personal asset while in dust you need personal investment in vehicles to even call in a vehicle let alone operate one. when vehicles are no longer in the skill tree and are freely given out like in bf and cod then il stop saying stuff about personal investment. Sorry dude, but those vehicles in BF are ****** when you first use em. Gotta level them up for them to be any good, I.E. personal investment. But that's moot point. The real discrepancy between the two is in BF the vehicles are free, as you pointed out in the end.. They are balanced, because they are free. In Dust, it costing money, brings out varying degrees of peoples opinions on "value". For instance, many people would agree that running MLT fits when you are low on money is the better thing to do. So why would you have a problem if HAV's cost the same as a dropsuit, where you can make throw away fits until you want to break your wallet. If in return, the only damn weapons in the game could actually kill you as easily as you can kill them. Are you saying that you don't want it to be just as easy to kill you as you can others? You want to play in a situation where it's noticeably harder to kill you for the sole justification of "I'm in a tank"? You want the game balanced around being the superior asset on the field at all times?
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9282	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:19:00 - [83] - Quote Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I am saying that yeah I can take down HAV...but taking down a tank should never be easy, otherwise it would be boring. Are yiy saying you want to be able to break the Vehicle/AV balance by destroying the most expensive, heavily armoured, and durable vehicle easily? See how easy it is to strawman people? Please refrain from attempting such in future. It contributes so little to the discussion, you assuming you know what I am attempting to explain. He's saying that the effort required to destroy an HAV should be equal to the effort required to pilot an HAV. So yeah, basically with extreme ease. Dude your assumptions that any one role in Dust requires any more "skill" than any other, in any FPS game ever made is one full of fallacies. You aim you gun, so do I. You claim positioning is important, I position myself as well. You fight tanks, I fight tanks, you are threatened by infantry, and so am I. By that logic is it fair to say you assume you are a better player than me because your arbitrarily place value on a role you personally prefer more, and that is in direct competition with mine? There is no value in discussing whether or not a role inherently makes you a better or worse player, its a weak argument, and ignorant and uninformed, and all together something I am not interested in. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:20:00 - [84] - Quote Oh, and my apologies for derailing the thread. There were just so many biased comments....
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 192	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:22:00 - [85] - Quote I dont want tanks to die just by looking at them. I just think that if a tank can kill whatever it wants with relative ease, then av should be able to kill a tank solo. Not easily. just one person should have the ability to kill a tank if they have the sp in the right areas. They have to remove almost all form of anti infantry in order to kill a tank whereas a tanker loses very little anti infantry capability but can still destroy vehicles easily.
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:37:00 - [86] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I am saying that yeah I can take down HAV...but taking down a tank should never be easy, otherwise it would be boring. Are yiy saying you want to be able to break the Vehicle/AV balance by destroying the most expensive, heavily armoured, and durable vehicle easily? See how easy it is to strawman people? Please refrain from attempting such in future. It contributes so little to the discussion, you assuming you know what I am attempting to explain. He's saying that the effort required to destroy an HAV should be equal to the effort required to pilot an HAV. So yeah, basically with extreme ease. Dude your assumptions that any one role in Dust requires any more "skill" than any other, in any FPS game ever made is one full of fallacies. You aim you gun, so do I. You claim positioning is important, I position myself as well. You fight tanks, I fight tanks, you are threatened by infantry, and so am I. By that logic is it fair to say you assume you are a better player than me because your arbitrarily place value on a role you personally prefer more, and that is in direct competition with mine? There is no value in discussing whether or not a role inherently makes you a better or worse player, its a weak argument, and ignorant and uninformed, and all together something I am not interested in. Sir, my assumption in all FPS games is that if i use a direct counter on someone, it should directly counter them. True Adamance wrote: You fight tanks, I fight tanks, you are threatened by infantry, and so am I. Holy ** man, talk about being arbitrary. It's not that cut and dry at all, and you know it. You fight against HAV's and infantry without impunity, and excel at doing both. As an infantry using AV, I sacrifice my ability to perform well against other infantry, to justify my increased threat to vehicles. You are only threatened by infantry carrying AV weapons and other HAV's fitted for Anti Vehicle work. As an infantry AV I'm threatened by every single weapon in the game except the swarm launcher. Now that is cut and dry. Infantry AV are threatened by every single weapon in the game minus the swarm launcher**. You aren't that vulnerable are you? Now try to use this to bring up an entirely separate argument that I never once mentioned, just to make it seem like you aren't bullshitting your way out of actually answering a question.
Void Echo Total Extinction 2395	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:39:00 - [87] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: Sorry dude, but those vehicles in BF are ****** when you first use em. Gotta level them up for them to be any good, I.E. personal investment. But that's moot point. The real discrepancy between the two is in BF the vehicles are free, as you pointed out in the end.. They are balanced, because they are free. In Dust, it costing money, brings out varying degrees of peoples opinions on "value". For instance, many people would agree that running MLT fits when you are low on money is the better thing to do. So why would you have a problem if HAV's cost the same as a dropsuit, where you can make throw away fits until you want to break your wallet. If in return, the only damn weapons in the game could actually kill you as easily as you can kill them. Are you saying that you don't want it to be just as easy to kill you as you can others? You want to play in a situation where it's noticeably harder to kill you for the sole justification of "I'm in a tank"? You want the game balanced around being the superior asset on the field at all times? with that said, I must remind you that I retired from tanking when 1.7 hit. what im saying is that when comparing HAVs to dropsuits, logically the HAV will have far superior killing and defensive power. if you make HAVs as strong and weak as dropsuits you effectively eliminate the want to use HAVs. since 1.7 iv been a gallente assault and when I return il have enough sp to expand over multiple fields of play styles. when im talking about balance, im not going to make ideas that suit infantry and just leave vehicles in the dark like everyone seems to do here. I talk about bringing in balance that would make both parties happy, thus keeping both sides from dying off whereas suggestions like yours will only benefit the infantry side and cause vehicles to go extinct, making you look bias towards vehicle pilots. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Void Echo Total Extinction 2395	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:42:00 - [88] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: True Adamance wrote: Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: I am saying that yeah I can take down HAV...but taking down a tank should never be easy, otherwise it would be boring. Are yiy saying you want to be able to break the Vehicle/AV balance by destroying the most expensive, heavily armoured, and durable vehicle easily? See how easy it is to strawman people? Please refrain from attempting such in future. It contributes so little to the discussion, you assuming you know what I am attempting to explain. He's saying that the effort required to destroy an HAV should be equal to the effort required to pilot an HAV. So yeah, basically with extreme ease. Dude your assumptions that any one role in Dust requires any more "skill" than any other, in any FPS game ever made is one full of fallacies. You aim you gun, so do I. You claim positioning is important, I position myself as well. You fight tanks, I fight tanks, you are threatened by infantry, and so am I. By that logic is it fair to say you assume you are a better player than me because your arbitrarily place value on a role you personally prefer more, and that is in direct competition with mine? There is no value in discussing whether or not a role inherently makes you a better or worse player, its a weak argument, and ignorant and uninformed, and all together something I am not interested in. Sir, my assumption in all FPS games is that if i use a direct counter on someone, it should directly counter them. True Adamance wrote: You fight tanks, I fight tanks, you are threatened by infantry, and so am I. Holy ** man, talk about being arbitrary. It's not that cut and dry at all, and you know it. You fight against HAV's and infantry without impunity, and excel at doing both. As an infantry using AV, I sacrifice my ability to perform well against other infantry, to justify my increased threat to vehicles. You are only threatened by infantry carrying AV weapons and other HAV's fitted for Anti Vehicle work. As an infantry AV I'm threatened by every single weapon in the game except the swarm launcher. Now that is cut and dry. Infantry AV are threatened by every single weapon in the game minus the swarm launcher**. You aren't that vulnerable are you? Now try to use this to bring up an entirely separate argument that I never once mentioned, just to make it seem like you aren't bullshitting your way out of actually answering a question. so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 534	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:42:00 - [89] - Quote Atiim wrote: In case somebody wanted to know the cost of being a maxed out AVer (SP & ISK Wise), I figured I'd put this here. ISK Price Quote: Assault mk.0 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher 1x Ishukone Assault Sub-Machine Gun 1x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenade 3x Complex Damage Modifiers 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Complex CPU Upgrade 1x Complex PG Upgrade Here, we have a fully decked, top-of-the-line AV fitting. It's got all of the tools an AVer needs to get the job done, and it's 3rd best AV fitting in the game. Based on my experience, an AVer using this suit can expect to die about 3-4 times on average. So now what seems like a measly 227,490 ISK is actually a cost ranging 682,470 ISK - 909,960 ISK. SP Price Now let's address the SP side. These are all of the skills needed to be a beastly AVer with the Swarm Launcher. By having these skills, you are self-sufficient and do not need to rely on constant support from a squad or need to be near an ammo source 24/7. You can even Strafe an 80GJ Blaster. Quote: Dropsuit Command II Minmatar Medium Dropsuits III Minmatar Assault Dropsuits V Dropsuit Upgrades II Dropsuit Core Upgrades II Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades V Kinetic Catalyzation III Electronics V Engineering V Profile Dampening V Nanocircuitry V Weaponry III Explosives III Grenadier V Demolitions V Light Weapon Operation IV Sidearm Operation II Swarm Launcher Operation V Swarm Launcher Proficiency V Swarm Launcher Ammo Count V Sub-Machine Gun Operation V Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency I Total Cost: 15,222,620 SP -HAND Mind doing this for forge guns?
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1183	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:42:00 - [90] - Quote Its free if you pull the right tank for the job. Crush them

Pvt Numnutz R 0 N 1 N 1063	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:49:00 - [91] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: I dont want tanks to die just by looking at them. I just think that if a tank can kill whatever it wants with relative ease, then av should be able to kill a tank solo. Not easily. just one person should have the ability to kill a tank if they have the sp in the right areas. They have to remove almost all form of anti infantry in order to kill a tank whereas a tanker loses very little anti infantry capability but can still destroy vehicles easily. I use missile tanks, it's very hard to kill infantry. To gain anti infantry abilities I fit rail guns to my tank as well and have gunners man them, what some call teamwork. I also cannot engage a shield tank without av or gunner support, so I cannot engage anything I want with relative ease. If a player can solo a tank with swarms then it looses its effect as a force multiplyer, and we got back to the days of tanks hiding in fear from one swarm launcher. This is what you are suggesting. I believe that two skilled av should bring down a skilled tank and that teams should bring vehicles to the battlefield not only to fight infantry, but to fight other vehicles as well. Otherwise there isn't much of a role for them.
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:54:00 - [92] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Duran Lex wrote: Sorry dude, but those vehicles in BF are ****** when you first use em. Gotta level them up for them to be any good, I.E. personal investment. But that's moot point. The real discrepancy between the two is in BF the vehicles are free, as you pointed out in the end.. They are balanced, because they are free. In Dust, it costing money, brings out varying degrees of peoples opinions on "value". For instance, many people would agree that running MLT fits when you are low on money is the better thing to do. So why would you have a problem if HAV's cost the same as a dropsuit, where you can make throw away fits until you want to break your wallet. If in return, the only damn weapons in the game could actually kill you as easily as you can kill them. Are you saying that you don't want it to be just as easy to kill you as you can others? You want to play in a situation where it's noticeably harder to kill you for the sole justification of "I'm in a tank"? You want the game balanced around being the superior asset on the field at all times? with that said, I must remind you that I retired from tanking when 1.7 hit. what im saying is that when comparing HAVs to dropsuits, logically the HAV will have far superior killing and defensive power. if you make HAVs as strong and weak as dropsuits you effectively eliminate the want to use HAVs. since 1.7 iv been a gallente assault and when I return il have enough sp to expand over multiple fields of play styles. when im talking about balance, im not going to make ideas that suit infantry and just leave vehicles in the dark like everyone seems to do here. I talk about bringing in balance that would make both parties happy, thus keeping both sides from dying off whereas suggestions like yours will only benefit the infantry side and cause vehicles to go extinct, making you look bias towards vehicle pilots. The problem i see is that most HAV's users have simply become too comfortable with being too large of a force multiplier. The only sacrifice made to justify that large of a force multiplier, with so few weaknesses is being slightly more expensive. Everything else in the game has to sacrifice something, somewhere to excel in a specific area. HAV's simply don't. They can take on any force in the game, and can withstand their direct counter longer then anything else in the game. That is something that needs to be changed. Cause hell, i would love to spend 200k more on my suit if i could multiply my stats as much as an HAV can.
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 192	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:56:00 - [93] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I dont want tanks to die just by looking at them. I just think that if a tank can kill whatever it wants with relative ease, then av should be able to kill a tank solo. Not easily. just one person should have the ability to kill a tank if they have the sp in the right areas. They have to remove almost all form of anti infantry in order to kill a tank whereas a tanker loses very little anti infantry capability but can still destroy vehicles easily. I use missile tanks, it's very hard to kill infantry. To gain anti infantry abilities I fit rail guns to my tank as well and have gunners man them, what some call teamwork. I also cannot engage a shield tank without av or gunner support, so I cannot engage anything I want with relative ease. If a player can solo a tank with swarms then it looses its effect as a force multiplyer, and we got back to the days of tanks hiding in fear from one swarm launcher. This is what you are suggesting. I believe that two skilled av should bring down a skilled tank and that teams should bring vehicles to the battlefield not only to fight infantry, but to fight other vehicles as well. Otherwise there isn't much of a role for them. If you hit something it dies. You can still kill with relative ease. The way swarms are at the moment you would have to be a complete idiot to get killed by one person seeing as how the range is 175m. And dont bring force multipliers into it. 8 tankers call in tanks. It would take the entire team of competant av to kill them leaving no anti infantry capability. Tanks would get smashed if they were called in to counter them. It creates an imbalance.
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2014.04.07 00:56:00 - [94] - Quote Void Echo wrote: so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? And what does getting out of your vehicle have to do with your capabilities while inside one?
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9282	Posted - 2014.04.07 01:10:00 - [95] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I dont want tanks to die just by looking at them. I just think that if a tank can kill whatever it wants with relative ease, then av should be able to kill a tank solo. Not easily. just one person should have the ability to kill a tank if they have the sp in the right areas. They have to remove almost all form of anti infantry in order to kill a tank whereas a tanker loses very little anti infantry capability but can still destroy vehicles easily. I use missile tanks, it's very hard to kill infantry. To gain anti infantry abilities I fit rail guns to my tank as well and have gunners man them, what some call teamwork. I also cannot engage a shield tank without av or gunner support, so I cannot engage anything I want with relative ease. If a player can solo a tank with swarms then it looses its effect as a force multiplyer, and we got back to the days of tanks hiding in fear from one swarm launcher. This is what you are suggesting. I believe that two skilled av should bring down a skilled tank and that teams should bring vehicles to the battlefield not only to fight infantry, but to fight other vehicles as well. Otherwise there isn't much of a role for them. If you hit something it dies. You can still kill with relative ease. The way swarms are at the moment you would have to be a complete idiot to get killed by one person seeing as how the range is 175m. And dont bring force multipliers into it. 8 tankers call in tanks. It would take the entire team of competant av to kill them leaving no anti infantry capability. Tanks would get smashed if they were called in to counter them. It creates an imbalance. How can they hack points? "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Minmatar Mercenary 9292 Science For Death 468	Posted - 2014.04.07 01:11:00 - [96] - Quote As long as it takes multiple people to deal with 1 guy then i will just keep strapping remotes to my car, it's far easier than pulling multiple people from pushing the objective, a lot of fun and completely free. I just wish my LAV could fly.... Da only good Amarr is a ded Amarr, an de ony fing betta than a ded one, is a dyin one who tells ya were 'is mates is!
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 535	Posted - 2014.04.07 01:14:00 - [97] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I dont want tanks to die just by looking at them. I just think that if a tank can kill whatever it wants with relative ease, then av should be able to kill a tank solo. Not easily. just one person should have the ability to kill a tank if they have the sp in the right areas. They have to remove almost all form of anti infantry in order to kill a tank whereas a tanker loses very little anti infantry capability but can still destroy vehicles easily. I use missile tanks, it's very hard to kill infantry. To gain anti infantry abilities I fit rail guns to my tank as well and have gunners man them, what some call teamwork. I also cannot engage a shield tank without av or gunner support, so I cannot engage anything I want with relative ease. If a player can solo a tank with swarms then it looses its effect as a force multiplyer, and we got back to the days of tanks hiding in fear from one swarm launcher. This is what you are suggesting. I believe that two skilled av should bring down a skilled tank and that teams should bring vehicles to the battlefield not only to fight infantry, but to fight other vehicles as well. Otherwise there isn't much of a role for them. I would be pretty happy if it only took 2 AV players to take out a tank. Last time i saw a sucsesful AV squad teamwork wise it was 4 players 2 proto swarms and 2 proto FG i was one of the forges and i was using the breach proto fg with prof 5 and 4 stacked complex damage mods.
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 192	Posted - 2014.04.07 01:20:00 - [98] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I dont want tanks to die just by looking at them. I just think that if a tank can kill whatever it wants with relative ease, then av should be able to kill a tank solo. Not easily. just one person should have the ability to kill a tank if they have the sp in the right areas. They have to remove almost all form of anti infantry in order to kill a tank whereas a tanker loses very little anti infantry capability but can still destroy vehicles easily. I use missile tanks, it's very hard to kill infantry. To gain anti infantry abilities I fit rail guns to my tank as well and have gunners man them, what some call teamwork. I also cannot engage a shield tank without av or gunner support, so I cannot engage anything I want with relative ease. If a player can solo a tank with swarms then it looses its effect as a force multiplyer, and we got back to the days of tanks hiding in fear from one swarm launcher. This is what you are suggesting. I believe that two skilled av should bring down a skilled tank and that teams should bring vehicles to the battlefield not only to fight infantry, but to fight other vehicles as well. Otherwise there isn't much of a role for them. If you hit something it dies. You can still kill with relative ease. The way swarms are at the moment you would have to be a complete idiot to get killed by one person seeing as how the range is 175m. And dont bring force multipliers into it. 8 tankers call in tanks. It would take the entire team of competant av to kill them leaving no anti infantry capability. Tanks would get smashed if they were called in to counter them. It creates an imbalance. How can they hack points? They have 8 others doing it for them
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9283	Posted - 2014.04.07 01:24:00 - [99] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I dont want tanks to die just by looking at them. I just think that if a tank can kill whatever it wants with relative ease, then av should be able to kill a tank solo. Not easily. just one person should have the ability to kill a tank if they have the sp in the right areas. They have to remove almost all form of anti infantry in order to kill a tank whereas a tanker loses very little anti infantry capability but can still destroy vehicles easily. I use missile tanks, it's very hard to kill infantry. To gain anti infantry abilities I fit rail guns to my tank as well and have gunners man them, what some call teamwork. I also cannot engage a shield tank without av or gunner support, so I cannot engage anything I want with relative ease. If a player can solo a tank with swarms then it looses its effect as a force multiplyer, and we got back to the days of tanks hiding in fear from one swarm launcher. This is what you are suggesting. I believe that two skilled av should bring down a skilled tank and that teams should bring vehicles to the battlefield not only to fight infantry, but to fight other vehicles as well. Otherwise there isn't much of a role for them. If you hit something it dies. You can still kill with relative ease. The way swarms are at the moment you would have to be a complete idiot to get killed by one person seeing as how the range is 175m. And dont bring force multipliers into it. 8 tankers call in tanks. It would take the entire team of competant av to kill them leaving no anti infantry capability. Tanks would get smashed if they were called in to counter them. It creates an imbalance. How can they hack points? They have 8 others doing it for them And..... where are your teams 8 tanks and infantry men to counter theirs? "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1529	Posted - 2014.04.07 01:37:00 - [100] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I dont want tanks to die just by looking at them. I just think that if a tank can kill whatever it wants with relative ease, then av should be able to kill a tank solo. Not easily. just one person should have the ability to kill a tank if they have the sp in the right areas. They have to remove almost all form of anti infantry in order to kill a tank whereas a tanker loses very little anti infantry capability but can still destroy vehicles easily. I use missile tanks, it's very hard to kill infantry. To gain anti infantry abilities I fit rail guns to my tank as well and have gunners man them, what some call teamwork. I also cannot engage a shield tank without av or gunner support, so I cannot engage anything I want with relative ease. If a player can solo a tank with swarms then it looses its effect as a force multiplyer, and we got back to the days of tanks hiding in fear from one swarm launcher. This is what you are suggesting. I believe that two skilled av should bring down a skilled tank and that teams should bring vehicles to the battlefield not only to fight infantry, but to fight other vehicles as well. Otherwise there isn't much of a role for them. If you hit something it dies. You can still kill with relative ease. The way swarms are at the moment you would have to be a complete idiot to get killed by one person seeing as how the range is 175m. And dont bring force multipliers into it. 8 tankers call in tanks. It would take the entire team of competant av to kill them leaving no anti infantry capability. Tanks would get smashed if they were called in to counter them. It creates an imbalance. How can they hack points? They have 8 others doing it for them And your team has 16 infantrymen to counter 8 infantrymen. Your point is invalid. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!

The Attorney General 2544	Posted - 2014.04.07 02:28:00 - [101] - Quote Atiim wrote: You could just fit a mobile CRU, and Complex Armor Repairers negate the need for a Repair Tool, which even then you'd only need Level IV because the BDR-8 Axis Tool repairs vehicles just as well, with no downsides either. Also, you have a Starter Fit. 0 SP, and doesn't affect your ability to tank. So now you are going to tell me what I need to run on my tank fits? Still, my 51,000,000 beats your SP amount by a huge margin, so your argument is void. Also, my good tanks are more expensive than your good AV fits, so there is that. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 192	Posted - 2014.04.07 03:14:00 - [102] - Quote Are you guys smoking? You are all adamant that it should take more than one person to kill a tank. If your team had 8 tanks then you would say that it takes 2 people to kill each tank. Which would mean all of the infantry (assuming that the team doesnt have an equal number of tanks which is mote likely) would be occupied with tanks. Also, im pretty sure 8 tanks would rip through most infantry rendering hacking almost pointless. Just clone them.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9286	Posted - 2014.04.07 03:35:00 - [103] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Are you guys smoking? You are all adamant that it should take more than one person to kill a tank. If your team had 8 tanks then you would say that it takes 2 people to kill each tank. Which would mean all of the infantry (assuming that the team doesnt have an equal number of tanks which is mote likely) would be occupied with tanks. Also, im pretty sure 8 tanks would rip through most infantry rendering hacking almost pointless. Just clone them. Then don't complain, do something about it. Call your own HAV, or ADS, or mob AV vehicles with concentrated fire. I personally love Tank Spam, more challenge for me, more enemies to kill, larger battles with 3 or 4 vehicles firing on 3-4 other tanks down the line..... those kinds of fights are exciting..... But if all your team is not willing to adapt to the change on the battlefield...... then you have no right to complain after the fact. Ever try coupling a Swarmer and a Tanker = Insta death for enemy vehicle... However I do understand the issues of the rep tanks with their recent emergence...this being a direct result of people thinking that a simple hot fix would sort out balance.... "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 192	Posted - 2014.04.07 03:47:00 - [104] - Quote I would be doing something about it. Using swarms. do you not see a problem with needing vehicles to destroy other vehicles? If a team doesnt have tanks they would be at a disadvantage even with av. Personally rolling around in a tank is boring. I only do it if its necessary and thats just to kill tanks with a dbl dmg mod sica. It makes no sense that i need to call in a mlt tank to kill a tank when i have proto swarms.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1529	Posted - 2014.04.07 04:19:00 - [105] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Are you guys smoking? You are all adamant that it should take more than one person to kill a tank. If your team had 8 tanks then you would say that it takes 2 people to kill each tank. Which would mean all of the infantry (assuming that the team doesnt have an equal number of tanks which is mote likely) would be occupied with tanks. Also, im pretty sure 8 tanks would rip through most infantry rendering hacking almost pointless. Just clone them. You're over-exaggerating the problem. If there's 8 tanks, you do not need 16 AV. Tanks and AV are not related in any way other than having a set number of AV to bring down one tank. Say it indeed takes two AV to destroy a tank. Now, let's say it's you and two more AV friends. You'll be able to pop any tank within seconds, and you work them down one at a time. You'd only need 16 AV if you wanted to pop all 8 tanks at once, which is just stupid. All you need is two friends to help you and concentrate fire and those tanks will go down like flies. Breach forge guns would work the best because you'll more than likely insta-kill any unhardened tank with the three of you, and two-shot any hardened tank. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 694	Posted - 2014.04.07 04:30:00 - [106] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Are you guys smoking? You are all adamant that it should take more than one person to kill a tank. If your team had 8 tanks then you would say that it takes 2 people to kill each tank. Which would mean all of the infantry (assuming that the team doesnt have an equal number of tanks which is mote likely) would be occupied with tanks. Also, im pretty sure 8 tanks would rip through most infantry rendering hacking almost pointless. Just clone them. You're over-exaggerating the problem. If there's 8 tanks, you do not need 16 AV. Tanks and AV are not related in any way other than having a set number of AV to bring down one tank. Say it indeed takes two AV to destroy a tank. Now, let's say it's you and two more AV friends. You'll be able to pop any tank within seconds, and you work them down one at a time. You'd only need 16 AV if you wanted to pop all 8 tanks at once, which is just stupid. All you need is two friends to help you and concentrate fire and those tanks will go down like flies. Breach forge guns would work the best because you'll more than likely insta-kill any unhardened tank with the three of you, and two-shot any hardened tank. Do you know how great this would be if it were true? It might actually be true when using prototype AV, but it most certainly is not even close to true when it comes to standard swarms. For the math, check out my sig, I am not going to go through all of that typing again here. The biggest problem here is that tankers want to be hard to kill, but they do not want to give up the ability to kill infantry insanely fast. This of course is going to make a large portion of the playerbase really mad because 1) There is no use for the infantry slayer or heavy outside of buildings (5% of dust). The blaster tank will always be the better choice. 2) The got killed without the ability to fight back or flee. (part of the reason fo the QQ about cloaks) 3) 2/3 types of AV are completely useless at standard levels, AV grenades are useless, and remotes are almost a garunteed suicide mission. Mainly it is number two though. You get killed by something you could not out-run, you could not damage, you could not evade, and that killed you in the blink of an eye. If you really can't see how that is a problem... well you just might be part of that problem. Fixing swarms
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 193	Posted - 2014.04.07 04:36:00 - [107] - Quote One solution i have is this: remove militia vehicles and lower the cap on amount of vehicles to per type. Say 2-3 tanks, 3-4 lavs and 2-3 DS. It would stop tank spam and show who has at least some sp in tanking. However, untill the balance is just right between av and vehicles they should stay.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9292	Posted - 2014.04.07 04:39:00 - [108] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Harpyja wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Are you guys smoking? You are all adamant that it should take more than one person to kill a tank. If your team had 8 tanks then you would say that it takes 2 people to kill each tank. Which would mean all of the infantry (assuming that the team doesnt have an equal number of tanks which is mote likely) would be occupied with tanks. Also, im pretty sure 8 tanks would rip through most infantry rendering hacking almost pointless. Just clone them. You're over-exaggerating the problem. If there's 8 tanks, you do not need 16 AV. Tanks and AV are not related in any way other than having a set number of AV to bring down one tank. Say it indeed takes two AV to destroy a tank. Now, let's say it's you and two more AV friends. You'll be able to pop any tank within seconds, and you work them down one at a time. You'd only need 16 AV if you wanted to pop all 8 tanks at once, which is just stupid. All you need is two friends to help you and concentrate fire and those tanks will go down like flies. Breach forge guns would work the best because you'll more than likely insta-kill any unhardened tank with the three of you, and two-shot any hardened tank. Do you know how great this would be if it were true? It might actually be true when using prototype AV, but it most certainly is not even close to true when it comes to standard swarms. For the math, check out my sig, I am not going to go through all of that typing again here. The biggest problem here is that tankers want to be hard to kill, but they do not want to give up the ability to kill infantry insanely fast. This of course is going to make a large portion of the playerbase really mad because 1) There is no use for the infantry slayer or heavy outside of buildings (5% of dust). The blaster tank will always be the better choice. 2) The got killed without the ability to fight back or flee. (part of the reason fo the QQ about cloaks) 3) 2/3 types of AV are completely useless at standard levels, AV grenades are useless, and remotes are almost a garunteed suicide mission. Mainly it is number two though. You get killed by something you could not out-run, you could damage, you could not evade, and that killed you in the blink of an eye. If you really can't see how that is a problem... well you just might be part of that problem. I never could argue with Math.... I would rather discuss how to balance vehicles vs AV over who is and is not a " crutch clinging scrub" as a few of you call it. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 695	Posted - 2014.04.07 04:47:00 - [109] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Harpyja wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Are you guys smoking? You are all adamant that it should take more than one person to kill a tank. If your team had 8 tanks then you would say that it takes 2 people to kill each tank. Which would mean all of the infantry (assuming that the team doesnt have an equal number of tanks which is mote likely) would be occupied with tanks. Also, im pretty sure 8 tanks would rip through most infantry rendering hacking almost pointless. Just clone them. You're over-exaggerating the problem. If there's 8 tanks, you do not need 16 AV. Tanks and AV are not related in any way other than having a set number of AV to bring down one tank. Say it indeed takes two AV to destroy a tank. Now, let's say it's you and two more AV friends. You'll be able to pop any tank within seconds, and you work them down one at a time. You'd only need 16 AV if you wanted to pop all 8 tanks at once, which is just stupid. All you need is two friends to help you and concentrate fire and those tanks will go down like flies. Breach forge guns would work the best because you'll more than likely insta-kill any unhardened tank with the three of you, and two-shot any hardened tank. Do you know how great this would be if it were true? It might actually be true when using prototype AV, but it most certainly is not even close to true when it comes to standard swarms. For the math, check out my sig, I am not going to go through all of that typing again here. The biggest problem here is that tankers want to be hard to kill, but they do not want to give up the ability to kill infantry insanely fast. This of course is going to make a large portion of the playerbase really mad because 1) There is no use for the infantry slayer or heavy outside of buildings (5% of dust). The blaster tank will always be the better choice. 2) The got killed without the ability to fight back or flee. (part of the reason fo the QQ about cloaks) 3) 2/3 types of AV are completely useless at standard levels, AV grenades are useless, and remotes are almost a garunteed suicide mission. Mainly it is number two though. You get killed by something you could not out-run, you could damage, you could not evade, and that killed you in the blink of an eye. If you really can't see how that is a problem... well you just might be part of that problem. I never could argue with Math.... I would rather discuss how to balance vehicles vs AV over who is and is not a " crutch clinging scrub" as a few of you call it. Hey all I want is two... wait three things when it comes to vehicles. 1) buff standard/advanced swarms so that they follow the same damage progression as the rest of the game. 2) Large Blasters to be ~20-40% efficient against infatry. Easily justifiable, give infantry at least a chance to get to cover, and makes sense.Small blaster can stay at 100% because they are spewing more concentrated/smaller ball of plasma at people. 3) Amarr vehicles/turrets (and minmatar too I guess). I will be running out of dropsuit stuff to train pretty soon. Fixing swarms
Pvt Numnutz R 0 N 1 N 1064	Posted - 2014.04.07 09:03:00 - [110] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I dont want tanks to die just by looking at them. I just think that if a tank can kill whatever it wants with relative ease, then av should be able to kill a tank solo. Not easily. just one person should have the ability to kill a tank if they have the sp in the right areas. They have to remove almost all form of anti infantry in order to kill a tank whereas a tanker loses very little anti infantry capability but can still destroy vehicles easily. I use missile tanks, it's very hard to kill infantry. To gain anti infantry abilities I fit rail guns to my tank as well and have gunners man them, what some call teamwork. I also cannot engage a shield tank without av or gunner support, so I cannot engage anything I want with relative ease. If a player can solo a tank with swarms then it looses its effect as a force multiplyer, and we got back to the days of tanks hiding in fear from one swarm launcher. This is what you are suggesting. I believe that two skilled av should bring down a skilled tank and that teams should bring vehicles to the battlefield not only to fight infantry, but to fight other vehicles as well. Otherwise there isn't much of a role for them. If you hit something it dies. You can still kill with relative ease. The way swarms are at the moment you would have to be a complete idiot to get killed by one person seeing as how the range is 175m. And dont bring force multipliers into it. 8 tankers call in tanks. It would take the entire team of competant av to kill them leaving no anti infantry capability. Tanks would get smashed if they were called in to counter them. It creates an imbalance. Yes but you have to understand it takes a lot of concentration to kill infantry with a missile tank. I don't have time to check my surroundings and am vulnerable to av and if another tank shows up, especially a shield tank and I don't have a full clip my tank is gone. I have my gunners kill the infantry so I can focus on other vehicles or installations. It requires 3 mercs to operate my tank with a minimum crew of 2 or other tank support. So it should require two skilled av to kill it. Av players idea not mine, I like it though. Please tell me what a tank is if not a force multiplier? And if you have a team of competent tankers fighting against a tank hore , say 2-3vs 8 with av support then you have a good chance of winning.

Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 461	Posted - 2014.04.07 09:53:00 - [111] - Quote Spent 2 matches tonight trying to be AV (proto). First one spent being spawn farmed by a blaster HAV while no one else goes AV. Then try killing a dropship at point blank range to watch him laugh and fly off to rep. As I'm watching him fly off I get jumped by 3 (yes 3) cloaked shotgun scouts. I fight back vs 2 of them using my trusty STD SMG only to be killed by the third from behind with no decloak sound. Second match was interesting. The enemy team fields like 5 HMG heavies each in their own LAV but all proto team stacked so by the time you get a volley off at one another heavy jumps out of his LAV behind you. HMG vs SMG at 20 paces, not a good look. On the positive side it did finally get me so angry I deleted the stupid game then headed straight over to EVE Online and cancelled my 8 year account. I might recheck both games in 12 months but maybe not ... Going to play some games that are fun and where I don't spend my whole relaxation and entertainment time just being angry.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 779	Posted - 2014.04.07 09:56:00 - [112] - Quote Of course always interesting, but with such an investment, the best AV remains another tank. Cheaper ISK wise and SP wise. Until that changes, the sandbox isn't really working.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 779	Posted - 2014.04.07 09:59:00 - [113] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Are you guys smoking? You are all adamant that it should take more than one person to kill a tank. If your team had 8 tanks then you would say that it takes 2 people to kill each tank. Which would mean all of the infantry (assuming that the team doesnt have an equal number of tanks which is mote likely) would be occupied with tanks. Also, im pretty sure 8 tanks would rip through most infantry rendering hacking almost pointless. Just clone them. I can't believe people still spout that fallacy - of course it shouldn't take two or more people to kill a tank. There have been reams of threads arguing this fact. This isn't EVE where you have no theoretical limits on player engagements. This is Dust 514, where you are limited to 16 vs 16 (for now). As soon as you have an asset, that requires only one operator and can only be neutralised by TWO or more opposing assets, then that asset is automatically overpowered - no matter what it's game mechanics are, this is just fact. Then add the fact that the asset itself can kill infantry and other tanks, can be recalled in 5 seconds anywhere on the map if it's in trouble, and isn't really visible on the minimap, and the arguments fall apart quickly. The AV/HAV is almost at the sweet spot, just not yet. They need to fix swarms and the obviously bugged forges before meaningful data starts to emerge. Until then, just keep using tanks. they remain the best, cheapest and most efficient AV.
Nelo Angel0 RETR0 PR0 GAMERS 199	Posted - 2014.04.07 10:11:00 - [114] - Quote Sergeant Sazu wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: Who uses full proto gear to take out tanks? Exactly, I'm having trouble keeping up my ISK using Advanced AV. I get shot at by Blasters and all the infantry... It's probably the least rewarding role ISK wise. But when I make my AV fit cheaper, I can't get the job done. Av Grenades and Swarms used to be a much more viable fit... Lis of things that happen most of the time: 1. The tank throws up a hardener and ignores me 2. The tank blasts me and moves on 3. They run away before I can finish them off. Who runs away in a tank? :/ 4. Most common, I get shot up by infantry. So unless I'm sitting on my Nanohive on a tower where I can repeatedly back up for cover, I hardly ever get the job done. I'm not expecting to solo a tank, I know how it is, but I don't even get close. Especially when every harmful thing in the game is after me and only my "Trusty Toxin" SMG can answer. I just try and try again until someone else happens to input some damage while I'm attacking a tank. Even then the tank will turn on their hardener and run to the redline to heal. cheap AV fit? you need a FG for that. mine is pretty basic and damn good at what it does. Sentinal C-1 HIGH SLOT x2 complex shield extenders SIDEARM Militia Submachine gun HEAVY WEAPON 9K330 Forge gun ( because assault is bugged to hell and breach sucks most of the time ) ISK cost: roughly 20K it's a nice dropship harasser and tank harasser and cheap too. Don't try taking on somas by yourself though it's just a waste of shots. I also run a sentinal C-1 series that costs roughly 25K though i'll have to double check the prices just to be sure.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2861	Posted - 2014.04.07 10:17:00 - [115] - Quote Wait swarms are good again? I might have to re-skill into those (haven't used them since chromosome) My forge fit costs about 50k, using advanced forge, advanced min sentinel with sprint mods Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 889	Posted - 2014.04.07 10:19:00 - [116] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: Who uses full proto gear to take out tanks? i use c-1 scout, cloak, and f/45s. BTW why do you use F/45?? Do you have too much ISK to spent? All the F/45 has over the std RE's is blast radius...the damage is the same. My "av" fitting is G-1 Cloak and RE's or adv Gal scout+Swarm+RE's (I use this fitting when my Squad mates are running other AV)
Nelo Angel0 RETR0 PR0 GAMERS 199	Posted - 2014.04.07 10:20:00 - [117] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Wait swarms are good again? I might have to re-skill into those (haven't used them since chromosome) My forge fit costs about 50k, using advanced forge, advanced min sentinel with sprint mods if their good my prof5 swarms still haven't noticed CCP must've of kept mine broken
Chuckles Brown 248	Posted - 2014.04.07 10:23:00 - [118] - Quote My AV costs more than an ADS... but its really, really, REALLY effective The official alt of 8213: Other alts are unofficially unofficial Do you pub, brah? Latest 8213 Ban Lifted: 07.02.2014
KGB Sleep 1003	Posted - 2014.04.07 10:31:00 - [119] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Atiim wrote: Patrick57 wrote: Good AV only costs 0 SP and 70k ISK. Yeah if your a dropship pilot who can't fit enough tank to survive a railgun hit and doesn't know what an Afterburner is. Or a tanker who couldn't be bothered with things such as situational awareness, and is too lazy to constantly check the map for enemy vehicles. My forge fitting costs 4M, and is about 100k. I think I posted it in the forums once. Wrecks all the tanks (when the damn Ishy is working) hey post that again is that the Amarr one? Because beer, that's why.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1359	Posted - 2014.04.07 13:31:00 - [120] - Quote Roofer Madness wrote: Patrick57 wrote: Good AV only costs 0 SP and 70k ISK. Jihad Jeep FTW. 8,000 ISK that ^ Most effective yet...

tween tween UrAnus Air Service 1	Posted - 2014.04.07 13:34:00 - [121] - Quote Half of you should stop whining and g'et out Sica's. How hard can it Be.
Void Echo Total Extinction 2398	Posted - 2014.04.07 16:14:00 - [122] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? And what does getting out of your vehicle have to do with your capabilities while inside one? because your talking about sacrifices, the sacrifice that vehicle pilots pay is their ability to do combat outside the vehicle. basically making them a vehicle, and removing the infantry aspect of their character. if you take a pure vehicle pilot and place him in a situation where has no vehicle and must face a squad of infantry, the pilot will die immediately. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6447	Posted - 2014.04.07 18:10:00 - [123] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: So now you are going to tell me what I need to run on my tank fits? Still, my 51,000,000 beats your SP amount by a huge margin, so your argument is void. Also, my good tanks are more expensive than your good AV fits, so there is that. Indeed I am. Also, the only way to reach that 51m SP ceiling would be to include every Small and Large Turret, and every passive skill they have. So by that logic, I would be able to include what; every AV weapon in the game, and all of the trees under it? It is also impossible to reach that 51m SP ceiling without skilling things to Level V that yield no bonus whatsoever, and aren't a prerequisite to anything (i.e, HAV Command V). The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6447	Posted - 2014.04.07 18:19:00 - [124] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Dude your assumptions that any one role in Dust requires any more "skill" than any other, in any FPS game ever made is one full of fallacies. How so? Would you say that the role of a Plasma Cannon user is as easy as the role of an Assault suit user? I didn't state that AV requires more skill than piloting an HAV (whether or not I believe that to be the case is another story). However, I did state that he is saying that the effort to destroy an HAV should be proportinate to the effort required to pilot one. Would you say that using an HAV with an 80GJ Blaster is difficult? True Adamance wrote: You aim you gun, so do I. You claim positioning is important, I position myself as well. You fight tanks, I fight tanks, you are threatened by infantry, and so am I. To an extent* You are only threatened by 4 (arguably 2-3) Infantry weapons in the game. And of those weapons, they can only threaten you if you allow yourself to be threatened. True Adamance wrote: By that logic is it fair to say you assume you are a better player than me because your arbitrarily place value on a role you personally prefer more, and that is in direct competition with mine? Since when do I place more value on AV than I do vehicles? True Adamance wrote: There is no value in discussing whether or not a role inherently makes you a better or worse player, its a weak argument, and ignorant and uninformed, and all together something I am not interested in. Please, point to where I was discussing this. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 497	Posted - 2014.04.07 18:46:00 - [125] - Quote The fitting I used in this video cost 71k plus the LAV. Just in this build did I swap it from my 143k proto amarr Logi fit. SP is about right though. http://youtu.be/XJh8Q2jGtRQ YouTube
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 661	Posted - 2014.04.07 19:52:00 - [126] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? And what does getting out of your vehicle have to do with your capabilities while inside one? because your talking about sacrifices, the sacrifice that vehicle pilots pay is their ability to do combat outside the vehicle. basically making them a vehicle, and removing the infantry aspect of their character. if you take a pure vehicle pilot and place him in a situation where has no vehicle and must face a squad of infantry, the pilot will die immediately. Yea, the problem with that is everyone in the game makes that decision. We either choose to put SP into infantry, thus making us weak inside vehicles. Or we put SP in vehicles, thus making us weak walking around on foot. It's your decision whether or not to use what you are skilling into. If i go pure AV and nothing into any AP weapon, I'm going to **** when trying to combat infantry aren't I? If you want to be proficient in both play styles, you must put skill into it. Just like I would have to in the case of vehicles. I'm talking about the sacrifices that create a disparity between the two play styles. An HAV pilot has far more advantages that are FAR larger in magnitude then that of the infantry soldier. More HP, more speed, more ammo, more resistances, being efficient at AV and AP at the same time, and the ability to shrug off the majority of the weapons in the game, just for 200k more then a dropsuit and the inability to chase down your victims that do not have the proper tools to fend you off while on foot. So sure, you can't stomp people across the entire god damn map. Unless its a map that has mostly open terrain, you know, the majority of the fuckin maps. That's what you sacrifice. Not being the god's of all possible terrain, though you certainly come close. (Note -I'm leaving out being unable to hack objectives. Because until they remove the ability to clone someone for the win, it's entirely moot fuckin point.) Currently Infantry AV have to give up their rock to use paper. Infantry AP have to give up their paper to use rock. HAV's give up nothing, yet are the rock, paper and scissors from the get go, thus removing the entire concept of the game. When the best counter to combat a force is itself, then there's nothing that is balanced about it. Edit - I forgot to add something else. Once upon the time the Forge Gun, a weapon that was both able to kill infantry and vehicles alike...got nerfed towards AP because people thought it was unfair for a weapon to be proficient at killing both infantry and vehicles at the same time**. You aren't a fuckin exception to the overall balance of the game.
Void Echo Total Extinction 2400	Posted - 2014.04.07 19:58:00 - [127] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? And what does getting out of your vehicle have to do with your capabilities while inside one? because your talking about sacrifices, the sacrifice that vehicle pilots pay is their ability to do combat outside the vehicle. basically making them a vehicle, and removing the infantry aspect of their character. if you take a pure vehicle pilot and place him in a situation where has no vehicle and must face a squad of infantry, the pilot will die immediately. Yea, the problem with that is everyone in the game makes that decision. We either choose to put SP into infantry, thus making us weak inside vehicles. Or we put SP in vehicles, thus making us weak walking around on foot. It's your decision whether or not to use what you are skilling into. If i go pure AV and nothing into any AP weapon, I'm going to ****** when trying to combat infantry aren't I? If you want to be proficient in both play styles, you must put skill into it. Just like I would have to in the case of vehicles. I'm talking about the sacrifices that create a disparity between the two play styles. An HAV pilot has far more advantages that are FAR larger in magnitude then that of the infantry soldier. More HP, more speed, more ammo, more resistances, being efficient at AV and AP at the same time, and the ability to shrug off the majority of the weapons in the game, just for 200k more then a dropsuit and the inability to chase down your victims that do not have the proper tools to fend you off while on foot. So sure, you can't stomp people across the entire god damn map. Unless its a map that has mostly open terrain, you know, the majority of the fuckin maps. That's what you sacrifice. Not being the god's of all possible terrain, though you certainly come close. (Note -I'm leaving out being unable to hack objectives. Because until they remove the ability to clone someone for the win, it's entirely moot fuckin point.) Currently Infantry AV have to give up their rock to use paper. Infantry AP have to give up their paper to use rock. HAV's give up nothing, yet are the rock, paper and scissors from the get go, thus removing the entire concept of the game. When the best counter to combat a force is itself, then there's nothing that is balanced about it. and when one play style is killed as easy as killing a scout with a heavy, then balance is non existent and thus kills off that play style and giving you nothing to use your equipment for, thus making your role useless as well because you want someone else's play style to be as easy as you want it. Rails should be anti-vehicle as primary, and anti-personnel only with a truly skillful pilot (I am an example of that from when I used to tank with a railgun) blaster should be anti-personal as primary, it does superb against infantry and poorly against other tanks. missiles, I really don't care about. Youtube Closed Beta Vet CEO: Total Extinction
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 430	Posted - 2014.04.07 20:12:00 - [128] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: I can suppress and sometimes take out (if they hang around like morons) proto fit tanks with my dren swarms. In fact, I find it is the most effective counter to the armour tanked sica/gunnloggi BS, as infantry AV can be concealed easier than a massive tank (also his railgod gun can't hit you effectively if you know how to strafe). Blaster tanks, I engage from dynamic directions from height to confuse them (cover is your friend). No compromises, since I use a commando. If they send infantry after me, I mow them down with my rail rifle and continue to gain points of of damaging tanks and sending them with their tails between their legs. The fit is only 10k isk. My double damage modded sica of vengeance costs me 79k isk and can easily be lost, if I don't get the jump on the enemy. TL;DR, standard swarms (and any light AV weapon for that matter) are OP (on the right commando) Try using a PLC as an AV weapon on a Galmmando, you'll be pleased. Please provide video of how well your swarms are doing against tanks. It would enlighten many here, including myself. I have a Min Commando Swarm fit with prof 2 in swarms, but only using advanced swarms. I can finish off the occasional tank, I am the cause of death of none in that fit. I only use ADV swarms because I am going to die many times. If I use a FG my effectiveness against tanks is much better. I still will die many times, sometimes to the tank, more often by a shotgun to the back of the head. Situational awareness? You think you can see 360 degrees in the 4 seconds it takes to charge a FG while also keeping track of the tank? In 4 seconds that scout can travel 40 meters, which is a long way, pretty much out of reach of my SMG. Because, that's why.
Duran Lex Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 662	Posted - 2014.04.07 20:12:00 - [129] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? And what does getting out of your vehicle have to do with your capabilities while inside one? because your talking about sacrifices, the sacrifice that vehicle pilots pay is their ability to do combat outside the vehicle. basically making them a vehicle, and removing the infantry aspect of their character. if you take a pure vehicle pilot and place him in a situation where has no vehicle and must face a squad of infantry, the pilot will die immediately. Yea, the problem with that is everyone in the game makes that decision. We either choose to put SP into infantry, thus making us weak inside vehicles. Or we put SP in vehicles, thus making us weak walking around on foot. It's your decision whether or not to use what you are skilling into. If i go pure AV and nothing into any AP weapon, I'm going to **** when trying to combat infantry aren't I? If you want to be proficient in both play styles, you must put skill into it. Just like I would have to in the case of vehicles. I'm talking about the sacrifices that create a disparity between the two play styles. An HAV pilot has far more advantages that are FAR larger in magnitude then that of the infantry soldier. More HP, more speed, more ammo, more resistances, being efficient at AV and AP at the same time, and the ability to shrug off the majority of the weapons in the game, just for 200k more then a dropsuit and the inability to chase down your victims that do not have the proper tools to fend you off while on foot. So sure, you can't stomp people across the entire god damn map. Unless its a map that has mostly open terrain, you know, the majority of the fuckin maps. That's what you sacrifice. Not being the god's of all possible terrain, though you certainly come close. (Note -I'm leaving out being unable to hack objectives. Because until they remove the ability to clone someone for the win, it's entirely moot fuckin point.) Currently Infantry AV have to give up their rock to use paper. Infantry AP have to give up their paper to use rock. HAV's give up nothing, yet are the rock, paper and scissors from the get go, thus removing the entire concept of the game. When the best counter to combat a force is itself, then there's nothing that is balanced about it. and when one play style is killed as easy as killing a scout with a heavy, then balance is non existent and thus kills off that play style and giving you nothing to use your equipment for, thus making your role useless as well because you want someone else's play style to be as easy as you want it. Rails should be anti-vehicle as primary, and anti-personnel only with a truly skillful pilot (I am an example of that from when I used to tank with a railgun) blaster should be anti-personal as primary, it does superb against infantry and poorly against other tanks. missiles, I really don't care about. No it doesn't kill the play style because that's the entire concept of this game. You will ALWAYS have a weakness that can absolutely dominate you no matter what. Rock should almost always beats scissors, paper should almost always beats rock. You should get the idea now. In the case of the scout VS heavy. The Heavy is the rock, and the scout is paper. The scout will win if he's competent because he has the advantage before skill is even involved. So damn straight that is balanced. Your changes wouldn't do a damn thing to close the huge gap. What needs to happen is this : HAV main turrets deal zero damage to infantry. If you want to also kill infantry, equip small turrets that need to be manned by other personnel. This creates a scenario that actually justifies the need for multiple AV to coordinate and take it out. The HAV with no added turrets still gets to enjoy those tank battles, solo or squads of terrible AV will still barely make you notice their existence (if they even bother to try and take you out now since you aren't ruining their life every second of battle), and you can still easily wipe the floor with infantry if you decide to choose** that course of action. Yet this system actually makes you choose a role, instead of excelling at them all.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 430	Posted - 2014.04.07 20:55:00 - [130] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Also, need I remind you that proxies work very well? I'm surprised that proxies are rarely seen on the field. That means you don't even need to spend all that SP on SLs and stuff. The only SP's you need to invest for AV go into proxies. All of the other SP you have go where ever you want into whichever role you want. Because with proxies, you sacrifice next to nothing (aside from investing the SP that could've gone somewhere else). During one week of play, I got destroyed by proxies twice. The first time through 3975 shield and 1500 armor, the second time through 5300 shield and 1500 armor. The total amount of battles where I encountered proxies was probably no more than four. I'd say that that's a rather high success rate, wouldn't you agree? No. First you got killed twice in a week, I get killed twice in a game trying to kill tanks in a good game. Second, proxies work only if you are in a safe place to deploy them, meaning no tanks already there and no infantry shooting at you, then they have to be placed where the tank is most likely to go, but tankers know this as well. You got caught by proxies because they are seldom used because they are ineffective, I bet you won't get caught in the same place anytime soon and there are limited places to place them. Third, one or two proxies didn't do that much damage, you had to hit several, probably next to RE's. The odds of that are even worse. So no, not good odds, not effective. They are good at slowing a tank from rolling into an objective or against LAV's. That is it. Because, that's why.

Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 430	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:05:00 - [131] - Quote Atiim wrote: Void Echo wrote: because of the fact that adv and proto tank hulls haven't existed in dust since the uprising build came along, standard tanks have had to become the new proto tanks, STD tanks are the highest level of vehicles you can get for ground deployment, if you don't like that a std tank is more powerful than a std dropsuit you have balance issues. also, then you should advocate of adv and proto tank hulls being put back into the game so the std tanks you hate so much will go down almost as easy as you want them to without causing the vehicle community to slip into near extinction again. If we introduce ADV and PRO vehicles, then we'd either have to make both ADV/PRO AV either stupidly overpowered; which would make running anything other than PRO pointless and cause the V/AV roles to stagnate, as they would cost too much SP to actually be worth a d@mn. Or we'd have to make the difference minimal at best, which would negate the purpose of having tiers in the first place No, what we have now should be Proto and STD and ADV should be balanced from that. Because, that's why.
Rusty Shallows 1439	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:08:00 - [132] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote: Av no longer exists in this game. There is only railguns and blasters. Scrubs that can't do either use jihad jeeps. Forges are only good for rooftop support. Swarms and av nades are jokes and anyone using them should feel bad. Because they suck more than a sniper, at least a sniper gets a few kills and doesn't die. A swarmer does nothing except keep away uber crappy tankers for a half minute. Hardeners are still OP because of stacking 3 shield hardeners, while railguns are now even stronger because of the nerf, while having 300m range is almost helpful to them, because it let's rail tankers move up without getting redline railed or installation railed since they usually don't run hardeners. Ads's are probably the most well off though because of the range nerf. Nyain San opinion, disregarded. He made made several good points and you ignore him over corp bigotry? Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9306	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:14:00 - [133] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: No it doesn't kill the play style because that's the entire concept of this game. You will ALWAYS have a weakness that can absolutely dominate you no matter what. Rock should almost always beats scissors, paper should almost always beats rock. You should get the idea now. In the case of the scout VS heavy. The Heavy is the rock, and the scout is paper. The scout will win if he's competent because he has the advantage before skill is even involved. So damn straight that is balanced. Your changes wouldn't do a damn thing to close the huge gap. What needs to happen is this : HAV main turrets deal zero damage to infantry. If you want to also kill infantry, equip small turrets that need to be manned by other personnel. This creates a scenario that actually justifies the need for multiple AV to coordinate and take it out. The HAV with no added turrets still gets to enjoy those tank battles, solo or squads of terrible AV will still barely make you notice their existence (if they even bother to try and take you out now since you aren't ruining their life every second of battle), and you can still easily wipe the floor with infantry if you decide to choose that course of action. Yet this system actually makes you choose a role, instead of excelling at them all. I already do this.... you are talking to a tanker that has been doing this a long time.....not a 1.7 FoTM tanker...... I run fits for killing tanks, I have fits for killing infantry, I have fits to support assault on objectives..... AV is not barely noticeable..... it might be if I made use of a triple repping HAV...which cannot fit or fulfil my style of play. Regardless of how you nerf HAV I will always find a way to go 20+/0.... it doesn't matter that all AVers are willing to argue for nerfs to vehicles but give back no concessions..... there will always be those who make your infantry based lives a nightmare. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 516	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:17:00 - [134] - Quote Void Echo wrote: and when one play style is killed as easy as killing a scout with a heavy, then balance is non existent and thus kills off that play style and giving you nothing to use your equipment for, thus making your role useless as well because you want someone else's play style to be as easy as you want it. Rails should be anti-vehicle as primary, and anti-personnel only with a truly skillful pilot (I am an example of that from when I used to tank with a railgun) blaster should be anti-personal as primary, it does superb against infantry and poorly against other tanks. missiles, I really don't care about. question, since when is a weapon the size of a human meant to be more powerful than a weapon the size of a vehicle? how is that possible? TO answer your Q : Javelin Missile. There your entire argument is nullified. A small shoulder fired weapon that is able to nullify tanks and air threats in a single use. Unfortunately Void, you are hitting into the area of both Speaker & Taka for your "desire"/ideas on how tank-av interactions should occur. As it is, it takes no skill investment (SP, don't mean personal skill) to tank and be effective in both AV and AP purposes; and if you even try to say otherwise you are lying and should leave the discussion. In the last week, I have been dicking around in tanks simply b/c I can, as have almost 200 sicas via salvage. Now I hate tanking, nor am I good at it; however when you can run up against ANY tank in the game w/ a rail you can pop it. No skill investment, no anything; simply 2-3 shots and its done (as ive done this to both sica/soma and Gung/Mady). However, if you then look at PROTO AV, it takes more SP investment, and 'skill' (term loosely here) to take out even militia/basic tanks, and in doing so you need to be away of not only tanks, but other infantry. This is a key important fact here. If you are AV, you need to watch out for the tank and 15 other infantry. Whereas if you are the tanker (assume both sides have a tank), you need to watch out for 1 tank and 1 AV. Thusly as player specifically spec'd into a certain role has the entire enemy team to look out for; whereas the tanker w/o no SP investment (and less isk investment) only has to worry about 2 players ... ??? I will still say and firmly promote the Tiercide needs to take affect; in just the AV-Vehicle interactions. As all other weapons in the game gain bonus attributes when leveled up, whereas AV does not. All that changes in damage nothing else. As it is, interactions should go back to how they were in Chromosone. Proto AV **** on militia/basic hull as they should (nor can u complain about disparity, as it has been reduce for tanking). When that occurs; tankers will need their ADV/Proto hulls to full aid in how AV interacts; but till that point; we will continue seeing AV being underpowered. And before Void or any other tanker complains about you are a tank and all that garbage; yes you are a tank, you are tanking in a BASIC HULL. You should not be that dominate in that type of situation; as that will only lead to further imbalance with higher tier hulls. As an ex of how you think balance is now: 2 rail shots, and 6 volleys of proto swarms to kill 1 triple rep mady .... Balanced? I think not @ person who said change main turrets for tank ... simply NO. Let them have their turrets. The turrets aren't the problem at all, it is simply how their fittings react with what the current AV potential is Flame On...... Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 430	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:18:00 - [135] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Duran Lex wrote: Sorry dude, but those vehicles in BF are ****** when you first use em. Gotta level them up for them to be any good, I.E. personal investment. But that's moot point. The real discrepancy between the two is in BF the vehicles are free, as you pointed out in the end.. They are balanced, because they are free. In Dust, it costing money, brings out varying degrees of peoples opinions on "value". For instance, many people would agree that running MLT fits when you are low on money is the better thing to do. So why would you have a problem if HAV's cost the same as a dropsuit, where you can make throw away fits until you want to break your wallet. If in return, the only damn weapons in the game could actually kill you as easily as you can kill them. Are you saying that you don't want it to be just as easy to kill you as you can others? You want to play in a situation where it's noticeably harder to kill you for the sole justification of "I'm in a tank"? You want the game balanced around being the superior asset on the field at all times? with that said, I must remind you that I retired from tanking when 1.7 hit. what im saying is that when comparing HAVs to dropsuits, logically the HAV will have far superior killing and defensive power. if you make HAVs as strong and weak as dropsuits you effectively eliminate the want to use HAVs. since 1.7 iv been a gallente assault and when I return il have enough sp to expand over multiple fields of play styles. when im talking about balance, im not going to make ideas that suit infantry and just leave vehicles in the dark like everyone seems to do here. I talk about bringing in balance that would make both parties happy, thus keeping both sides from dying off whereas suggestions like yours will only benefit the infantry side and cause vehicles to go extinct, making you look bias towards vehicle pilots. Logically you can't create balance by assuming that one player will always have a vast advantage over another by virtue of one choosing the "X" option. There is no disadvantages to a tank, you can put on the exact same drop suit I am wearing, get in a tank and have huge advantages, jump out of the tank and now be equal to me. Temporarily losing a huge advantage and getting equality is not a "disadvantage". If you drop your preconceived notions about what a tank is and realize we are talking about players in both instances you will see how unfair this inherently is. ISK expenditure is the only valid argument for the strength of tanks, (MLT tanks ruin this argument completely) yet in DUST much greater ISK expenditure is subject to diminishing returns and doesn't linearly increase ability, except in the case of vehicles. Because, that's why.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 434	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:29:00 - [136] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? And what does getting out of your vehicle have to do with your capabilities while inside one? because your talking about sacrifices, the sacrifice that vehicle pilots pay is their ability to do combat outside the vehicle. basically making them a vehicle, and removing the infantry aspect of their character. if you take a pure vehicle pilot and place him in a situation where has no vehicle and must face a squad of infantry, the pilot will die immediately. How much SP were necessary to get into that Soma again? I am pretty sure a starter fit has a weapon, a sidearm and a grenade. He is only helpless against a tank. Because, that's why.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9306	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:37:00 - [137] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Void Echo wrote: Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? And what does getting out of your vehicle have to do with your capabilities while inside one? because your talking about sacrifices, the sacrifice that vehicle pilots pay is their ability to do combat outside the vehicle. basically making them a vehicle, and removing the infantry aspect of their character. if you take a pure vehicle pilot and place him in a situation where has no vehicle and must face a squad of infantry, the pilot will die immediately. How much SP were necessary to get into that Soma again? I am pretty sure a starter fit has a weapon, a sidearm and a grenade. He is only helpless against a tank. You telling me you can't kill a Soma? facepalms....... "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!"* -Dagger Two
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6452	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:39:00 - [138] - Quote True Adamance wrote: You telling me you can't kill a Soma? *facepalms....... MLT Swarm Launcher (Starter Fit) vs. MLT HAV (Soma). I know where my money is Ratamaq Doc: The Best Swarmer Who Ever Lived. [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1537	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:44:00 - [139] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Harpyja wrote: Also, need I remind you that proxies work very well? I'm surprised that proxies are rarely seen on the field. That means you don't even need to spend all that SP on SLs and stuff. The only SP's you need to invest for AV go into proxies. All of the other SP you have go where ever you want into whichever role you want. Because with proxies, you sacrifice next to nothing (aside from investing the SP that could've gone somewhere else). During one week of play, I got destroyed by proxies twice. The first time through 3975 shield and 1500 armor, the second time through 5300 shield and 1500 armor. The total amount of battles where I encountered proxies was probably no more than four. I'd say that that's a rather high success rate, wouldn't you agree? No. First you got killed twice in a week, I get killed twice in a game trying to kill tanks in a good game. Second, proxies work only if you are in a safe place to deploy them, meaning no tanks already there and no infantry shooting at you, then they have to be placed where the tank is most likely to go, but tankers know this as well. You got caught by proxies because they are seldom used because they are ineffective, I bet you won't get caught in the same place anytime soon and there are limited places to place them. Third, one or two proxies didn't do that much damage, you had to hit several, probably next to RE's. The odds of that are even worse. So no, not good odds, not effective. They are good at slowing a tank from rolling into an objective or against LAV's. That is it. What's up with this "proxies are hard to use and useless" mentality? It's just like in Chromosome where people didn't use adv or proto AV, then cried tanks were OP and got us nerfed and AV buffed. Your first statement has no value to it. Yeah I only got killed twice, because I only encountered proxies in only about 4 battles. I would've lost a lot more tanks if proxies were more common. Then you go on about how it's hard to place proxies and such. There are lots of locations to place proxies; you just have to get off your lazy ass and find them. There's got to be multiple spots where you can safely lay a series of proxies at any one given time. The whole point of proxies is to place them where they are least expected. One of the matches I was blown up in, the person kept placing the proxy trap in the same exact location each time, so I'd just go off the side of the road a little and earn some free WPs by blowing them up. So your claim that proxies are pointless because tankers will know where they are has no value, because there's always a new location for you to set up a proxy trap. And again, your mentality that "proxies aren't good at killing tanks" is what's keeping you down. I just don't understand why AVers seem to refuse to use proxies and breach forge guns, because they are the most effective at killing tanks now. Stop being so stubborn to realize that the method of AV has changed, or do I have to keep telling you how to blow me up? "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6452	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:49:00 - [140] - Quote Unfortunately, I haven't the time to sit through and make a detailed argument atm, but I will say one thing Haryja. Your signature. Have you ever though about using a line space? I'm pretty sure me not wanting to limit tanks is not part of the Amarrian Bible. Ratamaq Doc: The Best Swarmer Who Ever Lived. [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND

Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1537	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:56:00 - [141] - Quote Atiim wrote: Unfortunately, I haven't the time to sit through and make a detailed argument atm, but I will say one thing Haryja. Your signature. Have you ever though about using a line space? I'm pretty sure me not wanting to limit tanks is not part of the Amarrian Bible. Sorry, turns out I'm a noob when it comes to signatures I'm putting the two returns it asks for a line break, but nothing happens. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9307	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:56:00 - [142] - Quote Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: You telling me you can't kill a Soma? facepalms....... MLT Swarm Launcher (Starter Fit) vs. MLT HAV (Soma). I know where my money is You really have to consider Soma as STD HAV with all the benefits of MLT gear........terrible design of course....but hell what do you expect me to do about it? I hate MLT tanks as well. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!"* -Dagger Two
Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 2305	Posted - 2014.04.07 22:15:00 - [143] - Quote Atiim wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: My AV suit costs 50k, I have RE's and 3 nanohives, and I drive myself around in a LAV that costs 20k (so entire fit is 70k). You're doing it wrong. I had a tank that only cost 500k back in 1.6. The entire tanking community was doing it wrong. You aren't a tanker. You aren't good at AV. You aren't good at shooting. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Rusty Shallows 1443	Posted - 2014.04.07 22:19:00 - [144] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Atiim wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: My AV suit costs 50k, I have RE's and 3 nanohives, and I drive myself around in a LAV that costs 20k (so entire fit is 70k). You're doing it wrong. I had a tank that only cost 500k back in 1.6. The entire tanking community was doing it wrong. You aren't a tanker. You aren't good at AV. You aren't good at shooting. There isn't any good "infantry" AV. Only what people make work under specific conditions. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 2306	Posted - 2014.04.07 22:24:00 - [145] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Atiim wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: My AV suit costs 50k, I have RE's and 3 nanohives, and I drive myself around in a LAV that costs 20k (so entire fit is 70k). You're doing it wrong. I had a tank that only cost 500k back in 1.6. The entire tanking community was doing it wrong. You aren't a tanker. You aren't good at AV. You aren't good at shooting. There isn't any good "infantry" AV. Only what people make work under specific conditions. Its perfectly justified. A hand held weapon should never match the DPS of a turret because the infantry man can hide from a tank; a tank cannot hide from a tank. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9309	Posted - 2014.04.07 22:24:00 - [146] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Atiim wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: My AV suit costs 50k, I have RE's and 3 nanohives, and I drive myself around in a LAV that costs 20k (so entire fit is 70k). You're doing it wrong. I had a tank that only cost 500k back in 1.6. The entire tanking community was doing it wrong. You aren't a tanker. You aren't good at AV. You aren't good at shooting. There isn't any good "infantry" AV. Only what people make work under specific conditions. And yet when they do...... "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 408	Posted - 2014.04.08 02:08:00 - [147] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do... and I kill tanks with my dren swarms. I also have a proto missile fit that I spent 20mil sp on that is invalidated by even the worst players using a militia railgun with damage mods.
Rusty Shallows 1448	Posted - 2014.04.08 02:19:00 - [148] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Rusty Shallows wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Atiim wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: My AV suit costs 50k, I have RE's and 3 nanohives, and I drive myself around in a LAV that costs 20k (so entire fit is 70k). You're doing it wrong. I had a tank that only cost 500k back in 1.6. The entire tanking community was doing it wrong. You aren't a tanker. You aren't good at AV. You aren't good at shooting. There isn't any good "infantry" AV. Only what people make work under specific conditions. And yet when they do...... True. Great for high organized competitive play. Terrible for pubs unless CCP does something to balance the weapons or matchmaking. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 201	Posted - 2014.04.08 03:07:00 - [149] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do... and I kill tanks with my dren swarms. I also have a proto missile fit that I spent 20mil sp on that is invalidated by even the worst players using a militia railgun with damage mods. On your own or with something else shooting it? I refuse to believe that you can kill a tank on your own with a dren swarm. And about the rail. Dont complain about it here. If tankers didnt want everything about tanking to be cheaper this whole mess with tank spam and super dmg mods wouldnt have happened. It needs fixing yes but for now you have to deal with it. We had to deal with super tanks for near 4 months.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9314	Posted - 2014.04.08 03:12:00 - [150] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do... and I kill tanks with my dren swarms. I also have a proto missile fit that I spent 20mil sp on that is invalidated by even the worst players using a militia railgun with damage mods. On your own or with something else shooting it? I refuse to believe that you can kill a tank on your own with a dren swarm. And about the rail. Dont complain about it here. If tankers didnt want everything about tanking to be cheaper this whole mess with tank spam and super dmg mods wouldnt have happened. It needs fixing yes but for now you have to deal with it. We had to deal with super tanks for near 4 months. Yeah even I'm disinclined to believe that..... "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 723	Posted - 2014.04.08 03:25:00 - [151] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do... and I kill tanks with my dren swarms. I also have a proto missile fit that I spent 20mil sp on that is invalidated by even the worst players using a militia railgun with damage mods. No you don't. No you really don't. Dren swarms = 880 damage per volley. That is 704 per volley versus shields and 1056 per volley versus armor. Guess how much armor a soma can heal between volleys, between reloads? You can't feasibly kill a sica with dren swarms, a soma that has 33% less repping power than a madrugar. Oh you meant a sica? One hardner on a sica means that you do 422 per volley, a sica can passively tank this (since regen will kick in between reloads). Nope, not killing sicas either. Or do you mean you help kill (not really with dren swarms) tanks? Dren swarms are incredibly underpowered. IT is actually quite staggering when you put the numbers on paper. Oh and are you complaining about a militia tank killing your tank? Really? I don't remember seeing proto-suit wearers complain about getting killed by militia suits, but that happens all of the damn time. I have 32 mil SP all in dropsuits, and I still get killed by milita frames now and again. Fixing swarms
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 723	Posted - 2014.04.08 03:31:00 - [152] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Rusty Shallows wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Atiim wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: My AV suit costs 50k, I have RE's and 3 nanohives, and I drive myself around in a LAV that costs 20k (so entire fit is 70k). You're doing it wrong. I had a tank that only cost 500k back in 1.6. The entire tanking community was doing it wrong. You aren't a tanker. You aren't good at AV. You aren't good at shooting. There isn't any good "infantry" AV. Only what people make work under specific conditions. Its perfectly justified. A hand held weapon should never match the DPS of a turret because the infantry man can hide from a tank; a tank cannot hide from a tank. Yes you can, it is actually really easy to hide from another tank on a lot of maps. Use the map, dip in and out of the redline, I see tankers do it all of the time. Also, A handheld weapon SHOULD be able to tank out a vehicles if that handheld weapon is ANTIVEHICLE. Or maybe you meant to say that a tank mounted weapon should never have the accuracy to hit an infantrymen because tank weapons are not balanced for anti-infantry roles. Fixing swarms
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9315	Posted - 2014.04.08 03:32:00 - [153] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do... and I kill tanks with my dren swarms. I also have a proto missile fit that I spent 20mil sp on that is invalidated by even the worst players using a militia railgun with damage mods. No you don't. No you really don't. Dren swarms = 880 damage per volley. That is 704 per volley versus shields and 1056 per volley versus armor. Guess how much armor a soma can heal between volleys, between reloads? You can't feasibly kill a sica with dren swarms, a soma that has 33% less repping power than a madrugar. Oh you meant a sica? One hardner on a sica means that you do 422 per volley, a sica can passively tank this (since regen will kick in between reloads). Nope, not killing sicas either. All of this is of course academic because swarms are still bugged and sometimes do no or close to no damage to unhardened targets that are moving. Or do you mean you help kill (not really with dren swarms) tanks? Dren swarms are incredibly underpowered. IT is actually quite staggering when you put the numbers on paper. Oh and are you complaining about a militia tank killing your tank? Really? I don't remember seeing proto-suit wearers complain about getting killed by militia suits, but that happens all of the damn time. I have 32 mil SP all in dropsuits, and I still get killed by milita frames now and again. I don't think he does it regularly Magnus but math doesnt directly translate into what contributes to your death in a vehicle...... he may simply be getting last hits on targets..... I'll be getting wrecked by a missile HAV sometimes and a single MLT forge will destroy me with last shot.....this is probably what he is claiming. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 723	Posted - 2014.04.08 03:40:00 - [154] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do... and I kill tanks with my dren swarms. I also have a proto missile fit that I spent 20mil sp on that is invalidated by even the worst players using a militia railgun with damage mods. No you don't. No you really don't. Dren swarms = 880 damage per volley. That is 704 per volley versus shields and 1056 per volley versus armor. Guess how much armor a soma can heal between volleys, between reloads? You can't feasibly kill a sica with dren swarms, a soma that has 33% less repping power than a madrugar. Oh you meant a sica? One hardner on a sica means that you do 422 per volley, a sica can passively tank this (since regen will kick in between reloads). Nope, not killing sicas either. All of this is of course academic because swarms are still bugged and sometimes do no or close to no damage to unhardened targets that are moving. Or do you mean you help kill (not really with dren swarms) tanks? Dren swarms are incredibly underpowered. It is actually quite staggering when you put the numbers on paper. Oh and are you complaining about a militia tank killing your tank? Really? I don't remember seeing proto-suit wearers complain about getting killed by militia suits, but that happens all of the damn time. I have 32 mil SP all in dropsuits, and I still get killed by milita frames now and again. I don't think he does it regularly Magnus but math doesnt directly translate into what contributes to your death in a vehicle...... he may simply be getting last hits on targets..... I'll be getting wrecked by a missile HAV sometimes and a single MLT forge will destroy me with last shot.....this is probably what he is claiming. I suspected that when I wrote the underlined bit as well. The math bit, I think it would just illustrate an individuals contribution to the kill. Sure, there are plenty of times I escape a duel with low HP and die to an AR from 80meters out or whatever, but I think the math would show that the previous guy/guys did all of the work, and that AR user just got lucky. Sorry if I was a jerk earlier in the thread btw, I just re-read what I wrote and I didn't realize I was talking to you, I just thought it was a continuation of one of the other guys here. Fixing swarms
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1538	Posted - 2014.04.08 03:42:00 - [155] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Or maybe you meant to say that a tank mounted weapon should never have the accuracy to hit an infantrymen because tank weapons are not balanced for anti-infantry roles. You're right, tank weapons are not balanced for anti-infantry roles. The blaster deals too much damage per shot, making its AV too effective. Nerf its damage per shot, and its AV ability will be nerfed without nerfing AI. There, a balanced turret designed for AI. Because it will pop when a railgun/missile tank/installation looks at it. And so you get closer to acheiving: AI (blaster) tank > infantry > AV infantry > AV tank > AI tank. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9319	Posted - 2014.04.08 03:43:00 - [156] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: True Adamance wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do... and I kill tanks with my dren swarms. I also have a proto missile fit that I spent 20mil sp on that is invalidated by even the worst players using a militia railgun with damage mods. No you don't. No you really don't. Dren swarms = 880 damage per volley. That is 704 per volley versus shields and 1056 per volley versus armor. Guess how much armor a soma can heal between volleys, between reloads? You can't feasibly kill a sica with dren swarms, a soma that has 33% less repping power than a madrugar. Oh you meant a sica? One hardner on a sica means that you do 422 per volley, a sica can passively tank this (since regen will kick in between reloads). Nope, not killing sicas either. All of this is of course academic because swarms are still bugged and sometimes do no or close to no damage to unhardened targets that are moving. Or do you mean you help kill (not really with dren swarms) tanks? Dren swarms are incredibly underpowered. It is actually quite staggering when you put the numbers on paper. Oh and are you complaining about a militia tank killing your tank? Really? I don't remember seeing proto-suit wearers complain about getting killed by militia suits, but that happens all of the damn time. I have 32 mil SP all in dropsuits, and I still get killed by milita frames now and again. I don't think he does it regularly Magnus but math doesnt directly translate into what contributes to your death in a vehicle...... he may simply be getting last hits on targets..... I'll be getting wrecked by a missile HAV sometimes and a single MLT forge will destroy me with last shot.....this is probably what he is claiming. I suspected that when I wrote the underlined bit as well. The math bit, I think it would just illustrate an individuals contribution to the kill. Sure, there are plenty of times I escape a duel with low HP and die to an AR from 80meters out or whatever, but I think the math would show that the previous guy/guys did all of the work, and that AR user just got lucky. Sorry if I was a jerk earlier in the thread btw, I just re-read what I wrote and I didn't realize I was talking to you, I just thought it was a continuation of one of the other guys here. Nah I can't argue with math.... primarily because I dont understand it..... "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2662	Posted - 2014.04.08 04:06:00 - [157] - Quote So I went and built my personal optimal fitting ingame. Comes to a total of 171k ISK. I soloed quite a few tanks with it, lost them only when some ******* blue stole my car (which was BPO fit, so not pricy). The whole ensemble came to 171k, plus about 8k for the car (I think the only thing I pay for on it is the scanner) Anyway. Sentinel ak.0 (I've only got 'Neo' ones from the faction pack; my Sentinel skill is to 4) Ishukone Assault FG Kaalakiota MSMG Lai Dai Packed AV 'nades (god, these wreck tanks. They make the kills so often) 2x Complex Extender 2x Complex Armour Repairer 1x Enhanced Armour Plate I need to invest in fitting optimisation to fit full proto :) It has enough EHP to survive a direct hit from an MLT rail, and few enough plates that I can still move reasonably quickly. Rails are meat, I can 1v1 a Sica from in the road in front of him pretty easily, but blasters take a little work. I usually run a much cheaper variant of this fitting, though, which is still quite effective. Just a BPO heavy with a DAU. I have issues soloing tanks with this sometimes, but in conjunction with another 10k suit it dominates vehicles. It's more fun to kill the tanks with missiles, though :) ak.0 4 LYFE je ne regrette rien
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 437	Posted - 2014.04.08 06:48:00 - [158] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Void Echo wrote: Duran Lex wrote: Void Echo wrote: so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? And what does getting out of your vehicle have to do with your capabilities while inside one? because your talking about sacrifices, the sacrifice that vehicle pilots pay is their ability to do combat outside the vehicle. basically making them a vehicle, and removing the infantry aspect of their character. if you take a pure vehicle pilot and place him in a situation where has no vehicle and must face a squad of infantry, the pilot will die immediately. How much SP were necessary to get into that Soma again? I am pretty sure a starter fit has a weapon, a sidearm and a grenade. He is only helpless against a tank. You telling me you can't kill a Soma? *facepalms....... With an assault rifle? No, I can't, but I can kill infantry, which is the pertinent point. I also can't kill a Soma with a starter fit swarm, not that that is relevant to the reply. Because, that's why.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 437	Posted - 2014.04.08 07:06:00 - [159] - Quote Harpyja wrote: [quote=Nothing Certain][quote=Harpyja]Also, need I remind you that proxies work very well? I'm surprised that proxies are rarely seen on the field. That means you don't even need to spend all that SP on SLs and stuff. The only SP's you need to invest for AV go into proxies. All of the other SP you have go where ever you want into whichever role you want. Because with proxies, you sacrifice next to nothing (aside from investing the SP that could've gone somewhere else). During one week of play, I got destroyed by proxies twice. The first time through 3975 shield and 1500 armor, the second time through 5300 shield and 1500 armor. The total amount of battles where I encountered proxies was probably no more than four. I'd say that that's a rather high success rate, wouldn't you agree? Why do you think people don't use proxies more often? I have them. I laid them every game only to watch them lie there, be destroyed, or run over without killing the tank. I can place them where the tank doesn't expect them , but the likelihood of a tank hitting them goes down exponentially. How do you know proxies aren't being used? Because you aren't seeing them or being killed by them? That just demonstrates my point. They are there, they just seldom are even noticed, much less deadly, to a tanker. Because, that's why.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9325	Posted - 2014.04.08 07:08:00 - [160] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: You telling me you can't kill a Soma? facepalms....... With an assault rifle? No, I can't, but I can kill infantry, which is the pertinent point. I also can't kill a Soma with a starter fit swarm, not that that is relevant to the reply.[/quote] So you don't even try to take down the HAV in a meaningful way yet complain...... facepalms "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two

Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2674	Posted - 2014.04.08 07:58:00 - [161] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: True Adamance can't quote properly wrote: You telling me you can't kill a Soma? facepalms....... With an assault rifle? No, I can't, but I can kill infantry, which is the pertinent point. I also can't kill a Soma with a starter fit swarm, not that that is relevant to the reply. So you don't even try to take down the HAV in a meaningful way yet complain...... facepalms So I fixed the quote. Also what exactly is the point here? It is exceedingly difficult to solo a vehicle with body shots only, even from a proto forge. It takes multiple sources of damage. This includes things like AV grenades, REs and proxes. It is entirely plausible to solo a tank in a blueprint suit with 'Dren' swarms, as long as you're also applying damage from other sources. Current V-AV balance means that it's entirely possible to solo a tank, but it is difficult and far easier to do in pairs. Three dedicTed AV can easily clear the board from any number of tanks, even if they're using STD gear. To clarify, my Ishukone Assault FG has issues killing many tanks inside four shots. If they position themselves poorly, however, they die in two shots. My AV grenades usually mop up whatever I can't kill otherwise, and if they can't I bring a friend. AV is no longer something you can fit in your back pocket, and it's now a fully dedicated role that is made far easier (like any other) by support. ak.0 4 LYFE je ne regrette rien
Sergeant Sazu SINISTER DEATH SQUAD 36	Posted - 2014.04.08 11:28:00 - [162] - Quote Well this is a very interesting discussion for me, since I use HAV and AV a good amount of the time. I've used Swarms and AV Grenades since I started playing, and before 1.7 I had an alternate where I used a Blaster Gunnlogi. As of now I'm still using my CBR7 and EX-0, and I'm recently using a large Missile Gunnlogi all in one character. As my Missile tank, I'm pretty sure 95% of my deaths were to the ones who fear effort and put damage mods on a Sica and call it a day. Barely anyone Forges or Swarms me anymore. It's just butthurt Rail tanks and Scouts trying to stick Remotes to me. That's it. Honestly, people should use actual AV, not these easy mode tactics. Even if you don't take out a tank, getting them to activate their modules is a win, since they might not have them when they need it later on. I'd rather get killed by actual AV than cowards who spend 80k ISK to eliminate my 200k ISK tank with no personal skill or SP required. But that's another discussion, I suppose. The situation with AV vs. HAV might change if they fix up the MLT tank price and other things. I am an AV user, always will be, and always will I fail many times even though I'm the one putting myself at risk of everything in the game. To sum it up, tanks should be much more fragile for their low price. Or make them expensive again and keep them how they are. Either way, how things are right now is not okay. Both my shield and armor recover 20HP/s. Your argument is invalid.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 787	Posted - 2014.04.08 12:12:00 - [163] - Quote Sergeant Sazu wrote: Well this is a very interesting discussion for me, since I use HAV and AV a good amount of the time. I've used Swarms and AV Grenades since I started playing, and before 1.7 I had an alternate where I used a Blaster Gunnlogi. As of now I'm still using my CBR7 and EX-0, and I'm recently using a large Missile Gunnlogi all in one character. As my Missile tank, I'm pretty sure 95% of my deaths were to the ones who fear effort and put damage mods on a Sica and call it a day. Barely anyone Forges or Swarms me anymore. It's just butthurt Rail tanks and Scouts trying to stick Remotes to me. That's it. Honestly, people should use actual AV, not these easy mode tactics. Even if you don't take out a tank, getting them to activate their modules is a win, since they might not have them when they need it later on. I'd rather get killed by actual AV than cowards who spend 80k ISK to eliminate my 200k ISK tank with no personal skill or SP required. But that's another discussion, I suppose. The situation with AV vs. HAV might change if they fix up the MLT tank price and other things. I am an AV user, always will be, and always will I fail many times even though I'm the one putting myself at risk of everything in the game. To sum it up, tanks should be much more fragile for their low price. Or make them expensive again and keep them how they are. Either way, how things are right now is not okay. I think this also brings up the fact that there is just not enough variety for an AV fit nowadays..... we are missing a few heavy weapons and I'm sure some other AV weapons are (were?) in the works.... I think it will be a glorious day when we achieve a true sandbox level so when you see a tank and you're alone on foot you don't think "Lets get the forge" you think "what's the best way I can take out this tank under the circumstances"... at the moment, it's still too easy to counter a tank with another tank (and it's cheap too and doesn't require much skill)... the situation is improving, but it hasn't quite yet hit the sweet spot... I think when it does you will see the disappearance of jihad LAV's and "tank spam" in a general sense will cease and only be used for people who are a) trying tanks out or b) dedicated tanks who have invested the time and skill to dominate on the battlefield..
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1374	Posted - 2014.04.08 12:25:00 - [164] - Quote Currently BPO LAV BPO Dragonfly suit F/45 RE This is stupid ^ But apparently it's working as intended We can even see Jihad Dropships too !!! Duel Swarms in a Commando is LOL worthy FG well it shoots blanks...
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1266	Posted - 2014.04.08 12:29:00 - [165] - Quote the thread is already long dead and derailed because tank crutch defenders always tell you to use teamwork but they think it is fine that a tank is a solo killing machine it is short and simple: AV on infantry cannot just ignore what is going on and can die in a seconds to pretty much everything. tanks on the other hand can be used with minimal amount of awareness, they dont die as easily and can ignore the majority of weapons on the field. the only thing you have to worry about is other tanks and AV in bigger numbers except that against AV I can just use my superior speed and range to deal with it by killing the AV peasent first or move back for recovery. this is not rocket science.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1987	Posted - 2014.04.08 12:39:00 - [166] - Quote Atiim wrote: In case somebody wanted to know the cost of being a maxed out AVer (SP & ISK Wise), I figured I'd put this here. ISK Price Quote: Assault mk.0 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher 1x Ishukone Assault Sub-Machine Gun 1x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenade 3x Complex Damage Modifiers 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Complex CPU Upgrade 1x Complex PG Upgrade Here, we have a fully decked, top-of-the-line AV fitting. It's got all of the tools an AVer needs to get the job done, and it's 3rd best AV fitting in the game. Based on my experience, an AVer using this suit can expect to die about 3-4 times on average. So now what seems like a measly 227,490 ISK is actually a cost ranging 682,470 ISK - 909,960 ISK. SP Price Now let's address the SP side. These are all of the skills needed to be a beastly AVer with the Swarm Launcher. By having these skills, you are self-sufficient and do not need to rely on constant support from a squad or need to be near an ammo source 24/7. You can even Strafe an 80GJ Blaster. Quote: Dropsuit Command II Minmatar Medium Dropsuits III Minmatar Assault Dropsuits V Dropsuit Upgrades II Dropsuit Core Upgrades II Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades V Kinetic Catalyzation III Electronics V Engineering V Profile Dampening V Nanocircuitry V Weaponry III Explosives III Grenadier V Demolitions V Light Weapon Operation IV Sidearm Operation II Swarm Launcher Operation V Swarm Launcher Proficiency V Swarm Launcher Ammo Count V Sub-Machine Gun Operation V Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency I Total Cost: 15,222,620 SP -HAND Says the guy that can't use his own tank to destroy other tanks. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6458	Posted - 2014.04.08 13:13:00 - [167] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Atiim wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Technically (for example) an SMG won't help you be a great AVer, so I think that's the point he's trying to make. Well they do help you fend off against hostile infantry, which does make the job easier. Well if you think about it, grabbing a proto HMG heavy suit to deal with infantry hugging your quadruple damage modded sica helps as well. I'm pretty sure that a 4 Damage Modifiers on any vehicle is not possible. Though that is an Infantry skill, and does not relate to vehicle skills. Unless I get to include LAV Command in my skill list, that skill is irrelevant. Ratamaq Doc: The Best Swarmer Who Ever Lived. [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 440	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:55:00 - [168] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: You telling me you can't kill a Soma? facepalms....... With an assault rifle? No, I can't, but I can kill infantry, which is the pertinent point. I also can't kill a Soma with a starter fit swarm, not that that is relevant to the reply. So you don't even try to take down the HAV in a meaningful way yet complain...... facepalms[/quote] You are not following the argument. The poster said he made sacrifices in order to tank. This included investing all his SP into vehicles and then being totally helpless outside his tank. I merely pointed out that A. No SP is necessary to tank B. He has weapons which are effective against infantry even with zero SP invested C. The only thing he can't fight without his tank, is a tank (or dropship). I run ADV forge, RE's, proxies as AV. I have swarms because I thought that surely they would be fixed. I sometimes break them out in a Min Commando suit for giggles. Because, that's why.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 440	Posted - 2014.04.08 20:01:00 - [169] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: Sergeant Sazu wrote: Well this is a very interesting discussion for me, since I use HAV and AV a good amount of the time. I've used Swarms and AV Grenades since I started playing, and before 1.7 I had an alternate where I used a Blaster Gunnlogi. As of now I'm still using my CBR7 and EX-0, and I'm recently using a large Missile Gunnlogi all in one character. As my Missile tank, I'm pretty sure 95% of my deaths were to the ones who fear effort and put damage mods on a Sica and call it a day. Barely anyone Forges or Swarms me anymore. It's just butthurt Rail tanks and Scouts trying to stick Remotes to me. That's it. Honestly, people should use actual AV, not these easy mode tactics. Even if you don't take out a tank, getting them to activate their modules is a win, since they might not have them when they need it later on. I'd rather get killed by actual AV than cowards who spend 80k ISK to eliminate my 200k ISK tank with no personal skill or SP required. But that's another discussion, I suppose. The situation with AV vs. HAV might change if they fix up the MLT tank price and other things. I am an AV user, always will be, and always will I fail many times even though I'm the one putting myself at risk of everything in the game. To sum it up, tanks should be much more fragile for their low price. Or make them expensive again and keep them how they are. Either way, how things are right now is not okay. I think this also brings up the fact that there is just not enough variety for an AV fit nowadays..... we are missing a few heavy weapons and I'm sure some other AV weapons are (were?) in the works.... I think it will be a glorious day when we achieve a true sandbox level so when you see a tank and you're alone on foot you don't think "Lets get the forge" you think "what's the best way I can take out this tank under the circumstances"... at the moment, it's still too easy to counter a tank with another tank (and it's cheap too and doesn't require much skill)... the situation is improving, but it hasn't quite yet hit the sweet spot... I think when it does you will see the disappearance of jihad LAV's and "tank spam" in a general sense will cease and only be used for people who are a) trying tanks out or b) dedicated tanks who have invested the time and skill to dominate on the battlefield.. I'd be really happy if they let me switch loads for my Mass Driver to an AV load. It could occupy an equipment slot, then I could run AV and AI, but it would cost me. Because, that's why.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1541	Posted - 2014.04.08 20:25:00 - [170] - Quote I just want to say to all of you that want to get tanks nerfed, at least take some care with how you want them nerfed. Don't nerf everything that there is to tanks. My missile tank finds it hard to fight back against infantry AV, so I'm forced to retreat. Isn't that good enough for you, for the missile tank at least? Sometimes if I have a blueberry gunner (or two), I'd risk it and just sit there and lose the majority of my shield until finally the blueberry realizes what's going on and kills the AVer after firing and missing most of an entire clip, of I retreat anyways because the blueberry is busy shooting infantry at 100m. That's why I like to have squad gunners because I can tell them to take care of infantry AV and other infantry. So let me just ask you, what more could you ask for? My missiles are especially hard to use against fatman with a forge gun, so I either have to retreat when I'm solo or ask my squad on the ground if they could take care of him. So please, be at least a little considerate instead of crying and asking for blanket nerfs that will nerf everything instead of the things that are truly breaking the balance. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!

ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 512	Posted - 2014.04.08 20:54:00 - [171] - Quote Harpyja wrote: My missile tank finds it hard to fight back against infantry AV, so I'm forced to retreat. Isn't that good enough for you, for the missile tank at least? No, not even a little bit. I did spend months of SP shoo you away. I don't care if you have a blaster, rail, missiles or an icecream machine fitted. If you drop a tank on my battle field, you are a target. And I really like ice cream. YouTube
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6464	Posted - 2014.04.08 20:56:00 - [172] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: Harpyja wrote: My missile tank finds it hard to fight back against infantry AV, so I'm forced to retreat. Isn't that good enough for you, for the missile tank at least? No, not even a little bit. I did spend months of SP shoo you away. I don't care if you have a blaster, rail, missiles or an icecream machine fitted. If you drop a tank on my battle field, you are a target. And I really like ice cream. This guy gets it. Ratamaq Doc: The Best Swarmer Who Ever Lived. [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 413	Posted - 2014.04.08 22:03:00 - [173] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do... and I kill tanks with my dren swarms. I also have a proto missile fit that I spent 20mil sp on that is invalidated by even the worst players using a militia railgun with damage mods. On your own or with something else shooting it? I refuse to believe that you can kill a tank on your own with a dren swarm. And about the rail. Dont complain about it here. If tankers didnt want everything about tanking to be cheaper this whole mess with tank spam and super dmg mods wouldnt have happened. It needs fixing yes but for now you have to deal with it. We had to deal with super tanks for near 4 months. I send out a swarm every 1 or so seconds, which either chases the tank away or kills it if it sits there like a moron. 2 Std swarms makes it impossible for your standard tanker to make a move at your group without serious punishment. Also it's free points on a suit that can do two of pretty much any offensive roles, at once. Try making a cheap commando fit, you'd be less frustrated as you'll be using the swarm as a sort of equipment, rather than your main weapon.
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 413	Posted - 2014.04.08 22:07:00 - [174] - Quote Atiim wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Atiim wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Technically (for example) an SMG won't help you be a great AVer, so I think that's the point he's trying to make. Well they do help you fend off against hostile infantry, which does make the job easier. Well if you think about it, grabbing a proto HMG heavy suit to deal with infantry hugging your quadruple damage modded sica helps as well. I'm pretty sure that a 4 Damage Modifiers on any vehicle is not possible. Though that is an Infantry skill, and does not relate to vehicle skills. Unless I get to include LAV Command in my skill list, that skill is irrelevant. That's because it was hyperbole. Funny, right? Anyway, we aren't arguing about what it takes to be a good infantryman, but what it takes to be a good infantry AVER, with an emphasis on the AV part. This is the point I'm trying to make.
EverNub Da Short Buss RISE of LEGION 39	Posted - 2014.04.08 22:30:00 - [175] - Quote Min Commando ADV suit with Wyrmki Swarms i'm killing Militia tanks in 3 shots, ADV tanks in 6-9 depending on Repairs and Hardner combo. Gunlogi's lil tougher sometimes since swarms arent as good vs shields but i can usually take them out with a hive. What is the use of fighting if you haven't got a tolerable planet to fight over? 30 Mil SP Commando/Logi Grandmaster
Ivy Zalinto Bobbit's Hangmen 369	Posted - 2014.04.08 22:43:00 - [176] - Quote Sergeant Sazu wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: Who uses full proto gear to take out tanks? Exactly, I'm having trouble keeping up my ISK using Advanced AV. I get shot at by Blasters and all the infantry... It's probably the least rewarding role ISK wise. But when I make my AV fit cheaper, I can't get the job done. Av Grenades and Swarms used to be a much more viable fit... Lis of things that happen most of the time: 1. The tank throws up a hardener and ignores me 2. The tank blasts me and moves on 3. They run away before I can finish them off. Who runs away in a tank? :/ 4. Most common, I get shot up by infantry. So unless I'm sitting on my Nanohive on a tower where I can repeatedly back up for cover, I hardly ever get the job done. I'm not expecting to solo a tank, I know how it is, but I don't even get close. Especially when every harmful thing in the game is after me and only my "Trusty Toxin" SMG can answer. I just try and try again until someone else happens to input some damage while I'm attacking a tank. Even then the tank will turn on their hardener and run to the redline to heal. Is it less rewarding than a gunship pilot (not ads but a myron fitted for air support role with xt1's and some tank with some burners.) Im lucky if i have a gunner online to even play that character. Dedicated Stealth Scout. Scout instructor; Learning Coalition Sidearms are terribly underestimated.


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