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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
430
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Posted - 2014.04.07 20:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Alpha 443-6732 wrote:I can suppress and sometimes take out (if they hang around like morons) proto fit tanks with my dren swarms. In fact, I find it is the most effective counter to the armour tanked sica/gunnloggi BS, as infantry AV can be concealed easier than a massive tank (also his railgod gun can't hit you effectively if you know how to strafe). Blaster tanks, I engage from dynamic directions from height to confuse them (cover is your friend).
No compromises, since I use a commando. If they send infantry after me, I mow them down with my rail rifle and continue to gain points of of damaging tanks and sending them with their tails between their legs.
The fit is only 10k isk. My double damage modded sica of vengeance costs me 79k isk and can easily be lost, if I don't get the jump on the enemy.
TL;DR, standard swarms (and any light AV weapon for that matter) are OP (on the right commando)
Try using a PLC as an AV weapon on a Galmmando, you'll be pleased.
Please provide video of how well your swarms are doing against tanks. It would enlighten many here, including myself. I have a Min Commando Swarm fit with prof 2 in swarms, but only using advanced swarms. I can finish off the occasional tank, I am the cause of death of none in that fit.
I only use ADV swarms because I am going to die many times. If I use a FG my effectiveness against tanks is much better. I still will die many times, sometimes to the tank, more often by a shotgun to the back of the head. Situational awareness? You think you can see 360 degrees in the 4 seconds it takes to charge a FG while also keeping track of the tank? In 4 seconds that scout can travel 40 meters, which is a long way, pretty much out of reach of my SMG.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
430
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Posted - 2014.04.07 20:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Also, need I remind you that proxies work very well? I'm surprised that proxies are rarely seen on the field.
That means you don't even need to spend all that SP on SLs and stuff. The only SP's you need to invest for AV go into proxies. All of the other SP you have go where ever you want into whichever role you want. Because with proxies, you sacrifice next to nothing (aside from investing the SP that could've gone somewhere else).
During one week of play, I got destroyed by proxies twice. The first time through 3975 shield and 1500 armor, the second time through 5300 shield and 1500 armor. The total amount of battles where I encountered proxies was probably no more than four. I'd say that that's a rather high success rate, wouldn't you agree?
No. First you got killed twice in a week, I get killed twice in a game trying to kill tanks in a good game. Second, proxies work only if you are in a safe place to deploy them, meaning no tanks already there and no infantry shooting at you, then they have to be placed where the tank is most likely to go, but tankers know this as well. You got caught by proxies because they are seldom used because they are ineffective, I bet you won't get caught in the same place anytime soon and there are limited places to place them. Third, one or two proxies didn't do that much damage, you had to hit several, probably next to RE's. The odds of that are even worse. So no, not good odds, not effective. They are good at slowing a tank from rolling into an objective or against LAV's. That is it.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
430
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Void Echo wrote:
because of the fact that adv and proto tank hulls haven't existed in dust since the uprising build came along, standard tanks have had to become the new proto tanks, STD tanks are the highest level of vehicles you can get for ground deployment, if you don't like that a std tank is more powerful than a std dropsuit you have balance issues. also, then you should advocate of adv and proto tank hulls being put back into the game so the std tanks you hate so much will go down almost as easy as you want them to without causing the vehicle community to slip into near extinction again.
If we introduce ADV and PRO vehicles, then we'd either have to make both ADV/PRO AV either stupidly overpowered; which would make running anything other than PRO pointless and cause the V/AV roles to stagnate, as they would cost too much SP to actually be worth a d@mn. Or we'd have to make the difference minimal at best, which would negate the purpose of having tiers in the first place
No, what we have now should be Proto and STD and ADV should be balanced from that.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
430
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:Duran Lex wrote:
Sorry dude, but those vehicles in BF are ****** when you first use em. Gotta level them up for them to be any good, I.E. personal investment.
But that's moot point. The real discrepancy between the two is in BF the vehicles are free, as you pointed out in the end.. They are balanced, because they are free.
In Dust, it costing money, brings out varying degrees of peoples opinions on "value".
For instance, many people would agree that running MLT fits when you are low on money is the better thing to do. So why would you have a problem if HAV's cost the same as a dropsuit, where you can make throw away fits until you want to break your wallet. If in return, the only damn weapons in the game could actually kill you as easily as you can kill them.
Are you saying that you don't want it to be just as easy to kill you as you can others? You want to play in a situation where it's noticeably harder to kill you for the sole justification of "I'm in a tank"? You want the game balanced around being the superior asset on the field at all times?
with that said, I must remind you that I retired from tanking when 1.7 hit. what im saying is that when comparing HAVs to dropsuits, logically the HAV will have far superior killing and defensive power. if you make HAVs as strong and weak as dropsuits you effectively eliminate the want to use HAVs. since 1.7 iv been a gallente assault and when I return il have enough sp to expand over multiple fields of play styles. when im talking about balance, im not going to make ideas that suit infantry and just leave vehicles in the dark like everyone seems to do here. I talk about bringing in balance that would make both parties happy, thus keeping both sides from dying off whereas suggestions like yours will only benefit the infantry side and cause vehicles to go extinct, making you look bias towards vehicle pilots.
Logically you can't create balance by assuming that one player will always have a vast advantage over another by virtue of one choosing the "X" option. There is no disadvantages to a tank, you can put on the exact same drop suit I am wearing, get in a tank and have huge advantages, jump out of the tank and now be equal to me. Temporarily losing a huge advantage and getting equality is not a "disadvantage". If you drop your preconceived notions about what a tank is and realize we are talking about players in both instances you will see how unfair this inherently is. ISK expenditure is the only valid argument for the strength of tanks, (MLT tanks ruin this argument completely) yet in DUST much greater ISK expenditure is subject to diminishing returns and doesn't linearly increase ability, except in the case of vehicles.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
434
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:Duran Lex wrote:Void Echo wrote: so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? And what does getting out of your vehicle have to do with your capabilities while inside one? because your talking about sacrifices, the sacrifice that vehicle pilots pay is their ability to do combat outside the vehicle. basically making them a vehicle, and removing the infantry aspect of their character. if you take a pure vehicle pilot and place him in a situation where has no vehicle and must face a squad of infantry, the pilot will die immediately.
How much SP were necessary to get into that Soma again? I am pretty sure a starter fit has a weapon, a sidearm and a grenade. He is only helpless against a tank.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
437
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Posted - 2014.04.08 06:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Nothing Certain wrote:Void Echo wrote:Duran Lex wrote:Void Echo wrote: so your choosing to ignore the fact that if a vehicle pilot exists their vehicle, they lose all efficiency because they invested in vehicles, not infantry? And what does getting out of your vehicle have to do with your capabilities while inside one? because your talking about sacrifices, the sacrifice that vehicle pilots pay is their ability to do combat outside the vehicle. basically making them a vehicle, and removing the infantry aspect of their character. if you take a pure vehicle pilot and place him in a situation where has no vehicle and must face a squad of infantry, the pilot will die immediately. How much SP were necessary to get into that Soma again? I am pretty sure a starter fit has a weapon, a sidearm and a grenade. He is only helpless against a tank. You telling me you can't kill a Soma? *facepalms.......
With an assault rifle? No, I can't, but I can kill infantry, which is the pertinent point. I also can't kill a Soma with a starter fit swarm, not that that is relevant to the reply.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
437
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Posted - 2014.04.08 07:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:[quote=Nothing Certain][quote=Harpyja]Also, need I remind you that proxies work very well? I'm surprised that proxies are rarely seen on the field.
That means you don't even need to spend all that SP on SLs and stuff. The only SP's you need to invest for AV go into proxies. All of the other SP you have go where ever you want into whichever role you want. Because with proxies, you sacrifice next to nothing (aside from investing the SP that could've gone somewhere else).
During one week of play, I got destroyed by proxies twice. The first time through 3975 shield and 1500 armor, the second time through 5300 shield and 1500 armor. The total amount of battles where I encountered proxies was probably no more than four. I'd say that that's a rather high success rate, wouldn't you agree?
Why do you think people don't use proxies more often? I have them. I laid them every game only to watch them lie there, be destroyed, or run over without killing the tank. I can place them where the tank doesn't expect them , but the likelihood of a tank hitting them goes down exponentially. How do you know proxies aren't being used? Because you aren't seeing them or being killed by them? That just demonstrates my point. They are there, they just seldom are even noticed, much less deadly, to a tanker.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
440
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Posted - 2014.04.08 19:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Nothing Certain wrote:
You telling me you can't kill a Soma?
*facepalms.......
With an assault rifle? No, I can't, but I can kill infantry, which is the pertinent point. I also can't kill a Soma with a starter fit swarm, not that that is relevant to the reply.
So you don't even try to take down the HAV in a meaningful way yet complain......
* facepalms[/quote]
You are not following the argument. The poster said he made sacrifices in order to tank. This included investing all his SP into vehicles and then being totally helpless outside his tank. I merely pointed out that A. No SP is necessary to tank B. He has weapons which are effective against infantry even with zero SP invested C. The only thing he can't fight without his tank, is a tank (or dropship).
I run ADV forge, RE's, proxies as AV. I have swarms because I thought that surely they would be fixed. I sometimes break them out in a Min Commando suit for giggles.
Because, that's why.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
440
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Posted - 2014.04.08 20:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Justicar Karnellia wrote:Sergeant Sazu wrote:Well this is a very interesting discussion for me, since I use HAV and AV a good amount of the time.
I've used Swarms and AV Grenades since I started playing, and before 1.7 I had an alternate where I used a Blaster Gunnlogi. As of now I'm still using my CBR7 and EX-0, and I'm recently using a large Missile Gunnlogi all in one character.
As my Missile tank, I'm pretty sure 95% of my deaths were to the ones who fear effort and put damage mods on a Sica and call it a day. Barely anyone Forges or Swarms me anymore. It's just butthurt Rail tanks and Scouts trying to stick Remotes to me. That's it. Honestly, people should use actual AV, not these easy mode tactics. Even if you don't take out a tank, getting them to activate their modules is a win, since they might not have them when they need it later on.
I'd rather get killed by actual AV than cowards who spend 80k ISK to eliminate my 200k ISK tank with no personal skill or SP required. But that's another discussion, I suppose. The situation with AV vs. HAV might change if they fix up the MLT tank price and other things.
I am an AV user, always will be, and always will I fail many times even though I'm the one putting myself at risk of everything in the game.
To sum it up, tanks should be much more fragile for their low price. Or make them expensive again and keep them how they are. Either way, how things are right now is not okay. I think this also brings up the fact that there is just not enough variety for an AV fit nowadays..... we are missing a few heavy weapons and I'm sure some other AV weapons are (were?) in the works.... I think it will be a glorious day when we achieve a true sandbox level so when you see a tank and you're alone on foot you don't think "Lets get the forge" you think "what's the best way I can take out this tank under the circumstances"... at the moment, it's still too easy to counter a tank with another tank (and it's cheap too and doesn't require much skill)... the situation is improving, but it hasn't quite yet hit the sweet spot... I think when it does you will see the disappearance of jihad LAV's and "tank spam" in a general sense will cease and only be used for people who are a) trying tanks out or b) dedicated tanks who have invested the time and skill to dominate on the battlefield..
I'd be really happy if they let me switch loads for my Mass Driver to an AV load. It could occupy an equipment slot, then I could run AV and AI, but it would cost me.
Because, that's why.
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