DUST Search - The Cost Of AV

Atiim wrote:

@Harpyja

I don't think you should be talking about relying on gear to win. After all, you were one of the many tankers crying over how someone with a MLT Railgun can destroy you, and how people with low tier gear [MLT] should not be able to threaten your tank.

Also, you hide in an HAV as your main profession. Anything involving skill does not concern you, nor is it possible for you to call someone out on a lack of such without it becoming hypocrisy.

This is going to be a long one, so please bear with me. Thanks.

Quote:

Profile Dampening - You need profile dampening to get under 36db. Otherwise you won't be able to sneak up on any HAV that's running an Active Scanner.

Kinetic Catalyzation - Have you ever tried to strafe an 80GJ Ion Cannon? Have you ever tried to run around a corner to prevent getting rick rolled by one? That speed is important.

Minmatar Assault Dropsuits - That 5% reduction to Light Weapon CPU/PG cost per level is why you need it. A 25% reduction to CPU/PG cost can (and will) become your best friend.

Also, the M/1 Series would allow you to get the work done. If you like running around with Base HP, less offensive power than a Starter Fit, and No Assault Swarm Launcher.

Swarm Launcher Proficiency - Every % counts. What if there was a skill that increased Shield Resistance by 3% per level? Would you only train it to level IV, or would you max it out?

Swarm Launcher Ammo Count - Do I really need to explain this? Without this skill, you only have 2 clips (which isn't much for a Swarm Launcher) before you have to retreat to cover for ammo. Having this is important so that you aren't forced to be tied down to a Nanohive, and the skill only gives you 1 Swarm per level so Level V is key.

Sub-Machine Gun Operation - Right. So your using a STD SMG which means that unless your in a heavy suit, my ~~Combat~~ hell, any of my rifles, would have killed you about 4 times over before you could kill me once.

Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency - It's the only way to get my hands on that Ishukone ASMG.

The price of the ADV version of my AV suit is 88,320 ISK. If you wish to pass your critique on it, then see this fitting here. If you wish to modify the SP total to account for what you claim to be simple neccisties, you may do that as well.

"By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!


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Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1524	Posted - 2014.04.06 16:25:00 - [1] - Quote Atiim wrote: In case somebody wanted to know the cost of being a maxed out AVer (SP & ISK Wise), I figured I'd put this here. ISK Price Quote: Assault mk.0 1x Ishukone Assault Swarm Launcher 1x Ishukone Assault Sub-Machine Gun 1x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenade 3x Complex Damage Modifiers 2x Complex Shield Extenders 1x Complex CPU Upgrade 1x Complex PG Upgrade Here, we have a fully decked, top-of-the-line AV fitting. It's got all of the tools an AVer needs to get the job done, and it's 3rd best AV fitting in the game. Based on my experience, an AVer using this suit can expect to die about 3-4 times on average. So now what seems like a measly 227,490 ISK is actually a cost ranging 682,470 ISK - 909,960 ISK. SP Price Now let's address the SP side. These are all of the skills needed to be a beastly AVer with the Swarm Launcher. By having these skills, you are self-sufficient and do not need to rely on constant support from a squad or need to be near an ammo source 24/7. You can even Strafe an 80GJ Blaster. Quote: Dropsuit Command II Minmatar Medium Dropsuits III Minmatar Assault Dropsuits V Dropsuit Upgrades II Dropsuit Core Upgrades II Dropsuit Biotic Upgrades V Kinetic Catalyzation III Electronics V Engineering V Profile Dampening V Nanocircuitry V Weaponry III Explosives III Grenadier V Demolitions V Light Weapon Operation IV Sidearm Operation II Swarm Launcher Operation V Swarm Launcher Proficiency V Swarm Launcher Ammo Count V Sub-Machine Gun Operation V Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency I Total Cost: 15,222,620 SP -HAND There's so much bullshit here tha'ts unnecessary. Proto SMG, you call that a necessity? My standard SMG is just fine with no proficiency. Do you need a proto dropsuit too? You know what I'm thinking? Attim's a scrub and relies on proto and gear to win, because he's got no skill. But let's move to the skills. I already covered the SMG and proficiency as not being necessities; they are just luxuries. Let me just bold the some of the other luxuries you got here... Now, what's the final cost, both ISK and SP, when you get rid of the proto SMG and the proto dropsuit? Now get rid of those bolded skills, or drop them down to level 4. If you seriously need 3% more damage to win, then you have no skill. Level 5s at that point are just luxuries. Git gud, scrub. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1527	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:59:00 - [2] - Quote Atiim wrote: @Harpyja I don't think you should be talking about relying on gear to win. After all, you were one of the many tankers crying over how someone with a MLT Railgun can destroy you, and how people with low tier gear [MLT] should not be able to threaten your tank. Also, you hide in an HAV as your main profession. Anything involving skill does not concern you, nor is it possible for you to call someone out on a lack of such without it becoming hypocrisy. This is going to be a long one, so please bear with me. Thanks. Quote: Profile Dampening - You need profile dampening to get under 36db. Otherwise you won't be able to sneak up on any HAV that's running an Active Scanner. Kinetic Catalyzation - Have you ever tried to strafe an 80GJ Ion Cannon? Have you ever tried to run around a corner to prevent getting rick rolled by one? That speed is important. Minmatar Assault Dropsuits - That 5% reduction to Light Weapon CPU/PG cost per level is why you need it. A 25% reduction to CPU/PG cost can (and will) become your best friend. Also, the M/1 Series would allow you to get the work done. If you like running around with Base HP, less offensive power than a Starter Fit, and No Assault Swarm Launcher. Swarm Launcher Proficiency - Every % counts. What if there was a skill that increased Shield Resistance by 3% per level? Would you only train it to level IV, or would you max it out? Swarm Launcher Ammo Count - Do I really need to explain this? Without this skill, you only have 2 clips (which isn't much for a Swarm Launcher) before you have to retreat to cover for ammo. Having this is important so that you aren't forced to be tied down to a Nanohive, and the skill only gives you 1 Swarm per level so Level V is key. Sub-Machine Gun Operation - Right. So your using a STD SMG which means that unless your in a heavy suit, my ~~Combat~~ hell, any of my rifles, would have killed you about 4 times over before you could kill me once. Sub-Machine Gun Proficiency - It's the only way to get my hands on that Ishukone ASMG. The price of the ADV version of my AV suit is 88,320 ISK. If you wish to pass your critique on it, then see this fitting here. If you wish to modify the SP total to account for what you claim to be simple neccisties, you may do that as well. Ugh, why do I continue arguing with you. The problem with having MLT stuff as good as PRO stuff is that there's close to no benefit of SP investment over no SP investment. It's SP investment that should count, not so much on gear. You have kept all of your passive skills while we have lost almost all of our passive skills. The only way to separate us now is on gear itself. The way I tank probably requires more skill than you have ever used. Screw all those blaster/railgun tanks that bum-rush everything and win. Missiles require true skill. I have to play tactically and have great situational awareness to be able to successfully ambush another tank. If I encounter a hardened shield tank, I have to either stalk it or dance with it to wait out its hardener. Please don't talk to me about skill again because you clearly don't know what it requires to be a successful missile tanker. I've yet to lose to a single missile tank because they all think it's easy when it's not. Also, I have an alt that's an Amarr Assault with maxed out armor upgrades, near maxed out shield upgrades, ScR prof 3, etc., so your whole statement just falls apart. Now, profile dampening is a luxury. Not every tank has an active scanner either. Plus scanners have cooldowns, so you should try to sneak up on it while it's on cooldown. Kinetic catalyzation is also a luxury. You shouldn't be right next to the tank in the first place. Minmatar Assault at 5. Please tell me, why is that -25% reduction so important now? You didn't have it before, so it's a luxury now. If PG and CPU values changed, sure, but they haven't. Also, do you need the assault SL? The only proto SL I've seen has been the Wiyrkomi SL, and it has shown itself on the killfeed a fair amount of times. SL proficiency 4 is just as good as 5. If you rely on such a tiny amount of % to get your job done, then you should rethink how you do it in the first place. And yes, I'd probably just put that shield skill up to 4 instead of 5. In 1.6 where the skill provided 2% resistance per level, I had it at 4 because all of the SP to get it to 5 were not worth it. I finally got it when I had nothing else to skill up. SL ammo count; just pick a good spot, throw down a couple of nanohives, and fire away. Or is it too hard for you to play tactically and find such a spot? SMG: tell that to all of those people I've dropped with my standard SMG. The price of my Gunnlogi is 560k. I average about 5-10 tank kills for every tank I lose. The average tank I kill costs no more than 80k. Therefore, your statement that you die multiple times to kill one tank is flawed, because I also lose about the same amount of ISK as that which I destroy. Now, stop wasting both your time and my time. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1527	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:04:00 - [3] - Quote Also, need I remind you that proxies work very well? I'm surprised that proxies are rarely seen on the field. That means you don't even need to spend all that SP on SLs and stuff. The only SP's you need to invest for AV go into proxies. All of the other SP you have go where ever you want into whichever role you want. Because with proxies, you sacrifice next to nothing (aside from investing the SP that could've gone somewhere else). During one week of play, I got destroyed by proxies twice. The first time through 3975 shield and 1500 armor, the second time through 5300 shield and 1500 armor. The total amount of battles where I encountered proxies was probably no more than four. I'd say that that's a rather high success rate, wouldn't you agree? "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1527	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:07:00 - [4] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: Atiim wrote: @Henchmen21 I do. But a better question would be "who uses prototype anything on a vehicle?" There's something satisfying in killing tanks with a Particle Cannon, probably because it means the rest of my fit isn't as, for the lack of a better term scrubby. Using any kind of large railgun makes your tank scrubby. The reason I use proto is because it sets me apart from the 0 SP wannabe's, because almost all of our passive skills have been taken away. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1529	Posted - 2014.04.07 01:37:00 - [5] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I dont want tanks to die just by looking at them. I just think that if a tank can kill whatever it wants with relative ease, then av should be able to kill a tank solo. Not easily. just one person should have the ability to kill a tank if they have the sp in the right areas. They have to remove almost all form of anti infantry in order to kill a tank whereas a tanker loses very little anti infantry capability but can still destroy vehicles easily. I use missile tanks, it's very hard to kill infantry. To gain anti infantry abilities I fit rail guns to my tank as well and have gunners man them, what some call teamwork. I also cannot engage a shield tank without av or gunner support, so I cannot engage anything I want with relative ease. If a player can solo a tank with swarms then it looses its effect as a force multiplyer, and we got back to the days of tanks hiding in fear from one swarm launcher. This is what you are suggesting. I believe that two skilled av should bring down a skilled tank and that teams should bring vehicles to the battlefield not only to fight infantry, but to fight other vehicles as well. Otherwise there isn't much of a role for them. If you hit something it dies. You can still kill with relative ease. The way swarms are at the moment you would have to be a complete idiot to get killed by one person seeing as how the range is 175m. And dont bring force multipliers into it. 8 tankers call in tanks. It would take the entire team of competant av to kill them leaving no anti infantry capability. Tanks would get smashed if they were called in to counter them. It creates an imbalance. How can they hack points? They have 8 others doing it for them And your team has 16 infantrymen to counter 8 infantrymen. Your point is invalid. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1529	Posted - 2014.04.07 04:19:00 - [6] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Are you guys smoking? You are all adamant that it should take more than one person to kill a tank. If your team had 8 tanks then you would say that it takes 2 people to kill each tank. Which would mean all of the infantry (assuming that the team doesnt have an equal number of tanks which is mote likely) would be occupied with tanks. Also, im pretty sure 8 tanks would rip through most infantry rendering hacking almost pointless. Just clone them. You're over-exaggerating the problem. If there's 8 tanks, you do not need 16 AV. Tanks and AV are not related in any way other than having a set number of AV to bring down one tank. Say it indeed takes two AV to destroy a tank. Now, let's say it's you and two more AV friends. You'll be able to pop any tank within seconds, and you work them down one at a time. You'd only need 16 AV if you wanted to pop all 8 tanks at once, which is just stupid. All you need is two friends to help you and concentrate fire and those tanks will go down like flies. Breach forge guns would work the best because you'll more than likely insta-kill any unhardened tank with the three of you, and two-shot any hardened tank. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1537	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:44:00 - [7] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Harpyja wrote: Also, need I remind you that proxies work very well? I'm surprised that proxies are rarely seen on the field. That means you don't even need to spend all that SP on SLs and stuff. The only SP's you need to invest for AV go into proxies. All of the other SP you have go where ever you want into whichever role you want. Because with proxies, you sacrifice next to nothing (aside from investing the SP that could've gone somewhere else). During one week of play, I got destroyed by proxies twice. The first time through 3975 shield and 1500 armor, the second time through 5300 shield and 1500 armor. The total amount of battles where I encountered proxies was probably no more than four. I'd say that that's a rather high success rate, wouldn't you agree? No. First you got killed twice in a week, I get killed twice in a game trying to kill tanks in a good game. Second, proxies work only if you are in a safe place to deploy them, meaning no tanks already there and no infantry shooting at you, then they have to be placed where the tank is most likely to go, but tankers know this as well. You got caught by proxies because they are seldom used because they are ineffective, I bet you won't get caught in the same place anytime soon and there are limited places to place them. Third, one or two proxies didn't do that much damage, you had to hit several, probably next to RE's. The odds of that are even worse. So no, not good odds, not effective. They are good at slowing a tank from rolling into an objective or against LAV's. That is it. What's up with this "proxies are hard to use and useless" mentality? It's just like in Chromosome where people didn't use adv or proto AV, then cried tanks were OP and got us nerfed and AV buffed. Your first statement has no value to it. Yeah I only got killed twice, because I only encountered proxies in only about 4 battles. I would've lost a lot more tanks if proxies were more common. Then you go on about how it's hard to place proxies and such. There are lots of locations to place proxies; you just have to get off your lazy ass and find them. There's got to be multiple spots where you can safely lay a series of proxies at any one given time. The whole point of proxies is to place them where they are least expected. One of the matches I was blown up in, the person kept placing the proxy trap in the same exact location each time, so I'd just go off the side of the road a little and earn some free WPs by blowing them up. So your claim that proxies are pointless because tankers will know where they are has no value, because there's always a new location for you to set up a proxy trap. And again, your mentality that "proxies aren't good at killing tanks" is what's keeping you down. I just don't understand why AVers seem to refuse to use proxies and breach forge guns, because they are the most effective at killing tanks now. Stop being so stubborn to realize that the method of AV has changed, or do I have to keep telling you how to blow me up? "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1537	Posted - 2014.04.07 21:56:00 - [8] - Quote Atiim wrote: Unfortunately, I haven't the time to sit through and make a detailed argument atm, but I will say one thing Haryja. Your signature. Have you ever though about using a line space? I'm pretty sure me not wanting to limit tanks is not part of the Amarrian Bible. Sorry, turns out I'm a noob when it comes to signatures I'm putting the two returns it asks for a line break, but nothing happens. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1538	Posted - 2014.04.08 03:42:00 - [9] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Or maybe you meant to say that a tank mounted weapon should never have the accuracy to hit an infantrymen because tank weapons are not balanced for anti-infantry roles. You're right, tank weapons are not balanced for anti-infantry roles. The blaster deals too much damage per shot, making its AV too effective. Nerf its damage per shot, and its AV ability will be nerfed without nerfing AI. There, a balanced turret designed for AI. Because it will pop when a railgun/missile tank/installation looks at it. And so you get closer to acheiving: AI (blaster) tank > infantry > AV infantry > AV tank > AI tank. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1541	Posted - 2014.04.08 20:25:00 - [10] - Quote I just want to say to all of you that want to get tanks nerfed, at least take some care with how you want them nerfed. Don't nerf everything that there is to tanks. My missile tank finds it hard to fight back against infantry AV, so I'm forced to retreat. Isn't that good enough for you, for the missile tank at least? Sometimes if I have a blueberry gunner (or two), I'd risk it and just sit there and lose the majority of my shield until finally the blueberry realizes what's going on and kills the AVer after firing and missing most of an entire clip, of I retreat anyways because the blueberry is busy shooting infantry at 100m. That's why I like to have squad gunners because I can tell them to take care of infantry AV and other infantry. So let me just ask you, what more could you ask for? My missiles are especially hard to use against fatman with a forge gun, so I either have to retreat when I'm solo or ask my squad on the ground if they could take care of him. So please, be at least a little considerate instead of crying and asking for blanket nerfs that will nerf everything instead of the things that are truly breaking the balance. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!