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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
694
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Posted - 2014.04.07 04:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Are you guys smoking? You are all adamant that it should take more than one person to kill a tank. If your team had 8 tanks then you would say that it takes 2 people to kill each tank. Which would mean all of the infantry (assuming that the team doesnt have an equal number of tanks which is mote likely) would be occupied with tanks. Also, im pretty sure 8 tanks would rip through most infantry rendering hacking almost pointless. Just clone them. You're over-exaggerating the problem. If there's 8 tanks, you do not need 16 AV. Tanks and AV are not related in any way other than having a set number of AV to bring down one tank. Say it indeed takes two AV to destroy a tank. Now, let's say it's you and two more AV friends. You'll be able to pop any tank within seconds, and you work them down one at a time. You'd only need 16 AV if you wanted to pop all 8 tanks at once, which is just stupid. All you need is two friends to help you and concentrate fire and those tanks will go down like flies. Breach forge guns would work the best because you'll more than likely insta-kill any unhardened tank with the three of you, and two-shot any hardened tank.
Do you know how great this would be if it were true?
It might actually be true when using prototype AV, but it most certainly is not even close to true when it comes to standard swarms. For the math, check out my sig, I am not going to go through all of that typing again here.
The biggest problem here is that tankers want to be hard to kill, but they do not want to give up the ability to kill infantry insanely fast. This of course is going to make a large portion of the playerbase really mad because
1) There is no use for the infantry slayer or heavy outside of buildings (5% of dust). The blaster tank will always be the better choice.
2) The got killed without the ability to fight back or flee. (part of the reason fo the QQ about cloaks)
3) 2/3 types of AV are completely useless at standard levels, AV grenades are useless, and remotes are almost a garunteed suicide mission.
Mainly it is number two though. You get killed by something you could not out-run, you could not damage, you could not evade, and that killed you in the blink of an eye.
If you really can't see how that is a problem... well you just might be part of that problem.
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
695
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Posted - 2014.04.07 04:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Harpyja wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Are you guys smoking? You are all adamant that it should take more than one person to kill a tank. If your team had 8 tanks then you would say that it takes 2 people to kill each tank. Which would mean all of the infantry (assuming that the team doesnt have an equal number of tanks which is mote likely) would be occupied with tanks. Also, im pretty sure 8 tanks would rip through most infantry rendering hacking almost pointless. Just clone them. You're over-exaggerating the problem. If there's 8 tanks, you do not need 16 AV. Tanks and AV are not related in any way other than having a set number of AV to bring down one tank. Say it indeed takes two AV to destroy a tank. Now, let's say it's you and two more AV friends. You'll be able to pop any tank within seconds, and you work them down one at a time. You'd only need 16 AV if you wanted to pop all 8 tanks at once, which is just stupid. All you need is two friends to help you and concentrate fire and those tanks will go down like flies. Breach forge guns would work the best because you'll more than likely insta-kill any unhardened tank with the three of you, and two-shot any hardened tank. Do you know how great this would be if it were true? It might actually be true when using prototype AV, but it most certainly is not even close to true when it comes to standard swarms. For the math, check out my sig, I am not going to go through all of that typing again here. The biggest problem here is that tankers want to be hard to kill, but they do not want to give up the ability to kill infantry insanely fast. This of course is going to make a large portion of the playerbase really mad because 1) There is no use for the infantry slayer or heavy outside of buildings (5% of dust). The blaster tank will always be the better choice. 2) The got killed without the ability to fight back or flee. (part of the reason fo the QQ about cloaks) 3) 2/3 types of AV are completely useless at standard levels, AV grenades are useless, and remotes are almost a garunteed suicide mission. Mainly it is number two though. You get killed by something you could not out-run, you could damage, you could not evade, and that killed you in the blink of an eye. If you really can't see how that is a problem... well you just might be part of that problem. I never could argue with Math.... I would rather discuss how to balance vehicles vs AV over who is and is not a " crutch clinging scrub" as a few of you call it.
Hey all I want is two... wait three things when it comes to vehicles.
1) buff standard/advanced swarms so that they follow the same damage progression as the rest of the game.
2) Large Blasters to be ~20-40% efficient against infatry. Easily justifiable, give infantry at least a chance to get to cover, and makes sense.Small blaster can stay at 100% because they are spewing more concentrated/smaller ball of plasma at people.
3) Amarr vehicles/turrets (and minmatar too I guess). I will be running out of dropsuit stuff to train pretty soon.
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
723
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 03:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do... and I kill tanks with my dren swarms. I also have a proto missile fit that I spent 20mil sp on that is invalidated by even the worst players using a militia railgun with damage mods.
No you don't. No you really don't. Dren swarms = 880 damage per volley.
That is 704 per volley versus shields and 1056 per volley versus armor.
Guess how much armor a soma can heal between volleys, between reloads? You can't feasibly kill a sica with dren swarms, a soma that has 33% less repping power than a madrugar.
Oh you meant a sica? One hardner on a sica means that you do 422 per volley, a sica can passively tank this (since regen will kick in between reloads). Nope, not killing sicas either.
Or do you mean you help kill (not really with dren swarms) tanks?
Dren swarms are incredibly underpowered. IT is actually quite staggering when you put the numbers on paper.
Oh and are you complaining about a militia tank killing your tank? Really? I don't remember seeing proto-suit wearers complain about getting killed by militia suits, but that happens all of the damn time. I have 32 mil SP all in dropsuits, and I still get killed by milita frames now and again.
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
723
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 03:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:My AV suit costs 50k, I have RE's and 3 nanohives, and I drive myself around in a LAV that costs 20k (so entire fit is 70k). You're doing it wrong. I had a tank that only cost 500k back in 1.6. The entire tanking community was doing it wrong.  You aren't a tanker. You aren't good at AV. You aren't good at shooting. There isn't any good "infantry" AV. Only what people make work under specific conditions. Its perfectly justified. A hand held weapon should never match the DPS of a turret because the infantry man can hide from a tank; a tank cannot hide from a tank.
Yes you can, it is actually really easy to hide from another tank on a lot of maps. Use the map, dip in and out of the redline, I see tankers do it all of the time.
Also, A handheld weapon SHOULD be able to tank out a vehicles if that handheld weapon is ANTIVEHICLE.
Or maybe you meant to say that a tank mounted weapon should never have the accuracy to hit an infantrymen because tank weapons are not balanced for anti-infantry roles.
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
723
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 03:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:I'd love to see these tankers try and use av as an infantryman. You guys seriously dont know how hard it is to kill a tank with little to no help. Try use a standard fit with standard swarms and tell me that the skills he has listed dont have any use. Smg skill, hell any sidearm you like is necessary when your main weapon only hurts vehicles. The fit he has is a good av fit. You would not be able to make an adv fit as good as this. I do... and I kill tanks with my dren swarms. I also have a proto missile fit that I spent 20mil sp on that is invalidated by even the worst players using a militia railgun with damage mods. No you don't. No you really don't. Dren swarms = 880 damage per volley. That is 704 per volley versus shields and 1056 per volley versus armor. Guess how much armor a soma can heal between volleys, between reloads? You can't feasibly kill a sica with dren swarms, a soma that has 33% less repping power than a madrugar. Oh you meant a sica? One hardner on a sica means that you do 422 per volley, a sica can passively tank this (since regen will kick in between reloads). Nope, not killing sicas either. All of this is of course academic because swarms are still bugged and sometimes do no or close to no damage to unhardened targets that are moving. Or do you mean you help kill (not really with dren swarms) tanks? Dren swarms are incredibly underpowered. It is actually quite staggering when you put the numbers on paper. Oh and are you complaining about a militia tank killing your tank? Really? I don't remember seeing proto-suit wearers complain about getting killed by militia suits, but that happens all of the damn time. I have 32 mil SP all in dropsuits, and I still get killed by milita frames now and again. I don't think he does it regularly Magnus but math doesnt directly translate into what contributes to your death in a vehicle...... he may simply be getting last hits on targets..... I'll be getting wrecked by a missile HAV sometimes and a single MLT forge will destroy me with last shot.....this is probably what he is claiming.
I suspected that when I wrote the underlined bit as well.
The math bit, I think it would just illustrate an individuals contribution to the kill. Sure, there are plenty of times I escape a duel with low HP and die to an AR from 80meters out or whatever, but I think the math would show that the previous guy/guys did all of the work, and that AR user just got lucky.
Sorry if I was a jerk earlier in the thread btw, I just re-read what I wrote and I didn't realize I was talking to you, I just thought it was a continuation of one of the other guys here.
Fixing swarms
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