[CCP] Cmdr Wang: Now here's a question that I'm sure that players will be interested in knowing is "How will this change affect our players?"

[CCP] Praetorian: The effect is minimal.

[CCP] Cmdr Wang: Okay... Well then, does this mean that, y'know, in the next build will we have different skill requirements for equipment?

[CCP] Praetorian: Some of it, yeah, but we're ensuring that we tune the skill tree so that the difference isn't that great, it's not that [maybe "noticable"].

[CCP] Cmdr Wang: Okay. So, basically, I mean if I can already use an assault rifle, after the changes then it should be no problem for me to get back into it.

[CCP] Praetorian: Absolutely.

Not to mention tiericide is back. Thought you learned your lesson in EvE that its a bad thing?

Example: 10X for suits plus prereq of frame skills. Amarr logi requires Amarr Med Frame V and Amarr logi V. How is that "about the same" amount of sp? Do you make a habit of lying to us this openly? (Will insert link to where ccp said suits sp cost would be similar)

You really want new/casual players to spend 6 months to get to a protosuit/weapon config? You think they are going to stick around? Oh I see your plan sell 2x/3x active boosters. Look I got my sp and Ill be good but way to screw your casual and new player base.

I get this is an mmo and you are proud of the "it takes 7 years to get all level 5s" but for ***** sake give us real content not just **** to spend SP on.

I'm very upset with the Gallente Scout, it doesn't look like much for combat with only 1 high slot....this whole build is going to be very interesting, I need to get my hands on everything >_< I'm not saying they won't have their place, but they also only have 1 equipment slot, so they can't even be all that good for support....

I'm looking at a screenshot of the Minmater Logi suit requirements:

1. Dropsuit Command 1 (x1 multiplier)
2. Minmater Medium Dropsuits 5 (x10 multiplier)

I'm looking at a screenshot of the Minmater Logi suit requirements:

1. Dropsuit Command 1 (x1 multiplier)
2. Minmater Medium Dropsuits 5 (x10 multiplier)

You are right that the skills are more intensive, but they aren't as intensive as you make out.

Also, I don't think you comprehend what tiericide is. Tiericide is the removal of "this is better than that", not the addition. Dust has had tiers (standard, advanced, prototype) since the beginning.

I'd also like to point out that CCP said a year ago that they were giving us an accelerated skill tree during the beta so we could test everything, and that that would be scaled back at release. You were either unaware of this, or chose to ignore. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume you never saw this.

One last thing - your attitude is less likely to get their attention; you come across immature and as a piece of advise I would recommend you change your approach if you want to be listened to. But since I've mentioned this before, I'm sure you will just get angrier at me and ignore my attempts to improve your bad image.

I'm very upset with the Gallente Scout, it doesn't look like much for combat with only 1 high slot....this whole build is going to be very interesting, I need to get my hands on everything >_< I'm not saying they won't have their place, but they also only have 1 equipment slot, so they can't even be all that good for support....

accelerated

Which scout suit are you looking at?

It's
1. Dropsuit Command (1x multiplier)
2. Minmatar Medium Frame (unknown multiplier)
3. Minmatar Logistics (10x multiplier)

This is accelerated?

One last thing - your attitude is less likely to get their attention; you come across immature and as a piece of advise I would recommend you change your approach if you want to be listened to. But since I've mentioned this before, I'm sure you will just get angrier at me and ignore my attempts to improve your bad image.

As I'm going through this video, I don't see a skill requirement screen for any of the suits. Can you tell me the time marker where you see this? Or did you see this somewhere else that I missed?

Scout gk.0 (prototype)

I'm not sure if it starts at the right time, go to 14:10 if it doesn't start you there or near there

Getting the full item sheet is vital I think. The more quickly you guys can get the item sheet the better the community can get to working with real numbers. The SP sink is a big issue as well.

9:42

While it is true there is more to skill up- it seems, as in eve, you get bonuses for each level.

Like the The Minmatar scout gets +5% to melee AND nova knives as well as +5% dampening (i think) per level.

So pretty cool anyways.

you're telling me tank drivers have to skill into something tht makes them weaker.

From what I can see from the video. To run a prototype dropsuit like the one you have now will still take the same amount of training. The drop suits we have now are not role based, just frames. Those appear to be turning in to the basic drop suits.

See how under Light, it has Basic and Scout. Under Medium it has Basic, Assault and Logistic.

To use a gallant basic light dropsuit would require

Dropsuit Command 1
Gallente Light Dropsuits V

So to use the exact same dropsuit you have access to know, requires the exact same amount of skills. (Assuming that Gallente Light Dropsuits V is x8 much like skill previously required.)

Then to use the Gallente Scout Dropsuit, which has additional role bonuses, you will need to train an additional skill:

Gallente Scout Dropsuits

To level 5 to use prototypes.

They have't taken anything away, just given us more gear and better gear than we have currently. The new better gear will require new skills to be trained, but since that gear doesn't exist now, you're not loosing anything.

From what I can see from the video. To run a prototype dropsuit like the one you have now will still take the same amount of training. The drop suits we have now are not role based, just frames. Those appear to be turning in to the basic drop suits.

See how under Light, it has Basic and Scout. Under Medium it has Basic, Assault and Logistic.

To use a gallant basic light dropsuit would require

Dropsuit Command 1
Gallente Light Dropsuits V

So to use the exact same dropsuit you have access to know, requires the exact same amount of skills. (Assuming that Gallente Light Dropsuits V is x8 much like skill previously required.)

Then to use the Gallente Scout Dropsuit, which has additional role bonuses, you will need to train an additional skill:

Gallente Scout Dropsuits

To level 5 to use prototypes.

They have't taken anything away, just given us more gear and better gear than we have currently. The new better gear will require new skills to be trained, but since that gear doesn't exist now, you're not loosing anything.

Wrong.

There are no Basic Logistics suits. All the Medium Frame Basic suits looks to be Assault.

Wrong.

There are no Basic Logistics suits. All the Medium Frame Basic suits looks to be Assault.

Also noticed that there are prototype versions of the basic suits - I'm guessing the skill requirements for these are lower than the specialized suits.

Upside people - more suits, more roles, more bonuses. Specialized suits take more SP; what we have now doesn't. Win-win.

It seems CCP is content to sell us SP, when we want them to sell us content.

It seems CCP is content to sell us SP, but I want it all for free...handed to me on a silver platter...and a pony

Correct. But they told us that ages ago. Go back and listen to the first merc cast again. They said that they are altering they way they divided up the dropsuit categories. Rather than have 4 types, they would now have 3 types based on the size of the frame. That way they can add additional subtypes down the line as needed.

So we already new that logistics and assault were becoming subclasses of a generic medium class.

But since the assault and logistics suits that are in the game now do not have any suit or role bonuses, the suits in the game now becoming the basic suits in uprising fits perfectly.

So you'll still be able to use an equivalent suit to what you have now for the same skill point investment. It will just be called a Minmatar Medium Basic or Caldari Medium Basic. Will they have the same stats and slot layout? Probably not, but again we new they were going to be rebalancing those.

Fixed that for you...

Not to mention tiericide is back. Thought you learned your lesson in EvE that its a bad thing?

Example: 10X for suits plus prereq of frame skills. Amarr Proto logi requires Amarr Med Frame V and Amarr logi V. How is that (see quote by ccp in post below) amount of sp? Do you make a habit of lying to us this openly? Please refer to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjMwiqmBs1o a video by jenza at the 14:49 mark where is shows the prereq for the Amarr Logi suit

You really want new/casual players to spend 6 months to get to a protosuit/weapon config? You think they are going to stick around? Oh I see your plan sell 2x/3x active boosters. Look I got my sp and Ill be good but way to screw your casual and new player base.

I get this is an mmo and you are proud of the "it takes 7 years to get all level 5s" but for ***** sake give us real content not just **** to spend SP on.



Edit:

Before I get a "noc" warning and can't post for the next month because ccp doesn't like being called out let me say this: I have much love for Dust514 and I will not hesitate to call ccp out when it needs to be done.

Also for you nerds saying they are new suits. Please refer to our current winmatar logi proto stats then compare them to the video at the 16:29 mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EgB6LXqk8RY They are the same exact suits

PS I love how people hate me more then they hate ccp for jacking up suits costs and lying about it.

I don't hate you.

and thanks for letting everyone see how CCP likes to **** over new players

I think you're wrong. CCP loves its players, and wouldn't screw us over like that.

You guys are all haters, your whole corp is dedicated to this $***. Get a life losers.


Also, you're hating on something not even out yet, relax.


Nerds.

Obvious bait...

Trolling scrub detected.

Obvious bait...

Trolling scrub detected.

Before I get a "noc" warning and can't post for the next month because ccp doesn't like being called out let me say this: I have much love for Dust514 and I will not hesitate to call ccp out when it needs to be done.

Also for you nerds saying they are new suits. Please refer to our current winmatar logi proto stats then compare them to the video at the 16:29 mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EgB6LXqk8RY They are the same exact suits

PS I love how people hate me more then they hate ccp for jacking up suits costs and lying about it.

No they aren't the same. Because they require an extra level of skill to use. And part of that skill endows frame and role bonuses on those drop suits.

In your video link, go to 13:26. It shows the both the basic and scout dropsuits. The basic suits have no role bonuses (much like the gear we have now). While the video doesn't show the basic gear for the other frame sizes, it's not hard to guess what my be listed there.

Fixed that for you...

Those role bonuses are hardly better than any passive skills and definitely not worth their SP cost.

It's ICY we just learn to ignore children vying for a seat at the grown-ups table.

so disappointed in Icy

If you don't think the role bonuses are worth anything, then you're a lucky lucky dust bunny. You don't need to train them.

As increments in ability increase linearly, so do they increase in cost increase exponentially. This is how everything in dust works. It is why the first 5% increase cost 6000 SP, but the 5th 5% increase costs 155,460.00. If you don't think the role bonuses are worth anything, then you're a lucky lucky dust bunny. You don't need to train them.

These are long term skills, they are not designed to be trained overnight. The longer you play and the more powerful your character becomes, the greater the value you gain out of those benefits and the more worthy of the cost.

I do if I want to skill into Assault or Logistics, or Scouts and Sentinels

The prereq for that better not be something stupid like level 5 basic suits.

Spoken like a true prodigy. Congratulations, you have won the game.

What benefit does skilling in to assault or logistics give you over the basic suits?

Well, there must be a lot of winners then. This is pretty basic fundamentals of game design.

Wouldn't want to be like you under the table, sucking Imp d***.

It seems CCP is content to sell us SP, when we want them to sell us content.

Under all current technicalities, you guys are all currently wearing Light, Medium and Heavy Suits, nobody here is wearing scout, logistics, commando, sentinel, assault, pilot suits yet. They're like the muraders of HAVs.

Yeah, the stats and slot layout say otherwise

Or are you saying basic suits have the exact stats as our current suits?

Remind me again how you are a factor, oh wait you aren't. Now run along lil troll grown men talking here.

FYI

what I am saying is that WE are spending SP at 10x for just a racial role bonus on a suit we can already wear. Why? If you think about it why would you split the suit and the bonus? Unless you wanted to just give us an SP sink.

Now if these suits were to have better stats and or bonus then I could see them as a tier 2 suit.

Note: discussion of actual bonuses is subjective and counter to the point I am trying to make

So... you want one skill to unlock everything? Why would proficiency in a plasma rifle, help you understand how a grenade launcher works? How does understanding how a speeder works makes you an expert at gunships? why would understanding squad command suit make you understand how to fly an MCC?

My guess is that they are trying to seriously reduce the number of protobears.

They are especially trying to make it hard to skill well into everything.


I'm sure the number of people who artificially inflated their SP totals by guarding MCC had nothing to do with it.

Remind me again how you are a factor, oh wait you aren't. Now run along lil troll grown men talking here.

The advanced suits have anywhere from two (not one or not zero like current) 10-15% bonuses to a function that there is no current suit here can ever possibly match with current suits or even modules, If your current suits went against these new ones when they're optimally fitted, you will get ROLF stomped.

Interesting...

But are the "basic" suits exactly like our current suits? I'm fine with suits costing more, because of the bonuses, but I see no point to the basic suits.

The advanced suits have anywhere from two (not one or not zero like current) 10-15% bonuses to a function that there is no current suit here can ever possibly match with current suits or even modules, If your current suits went against these new ones when they're optimally fitted, you will get ROLF stomped.

Yeah, the stats and slot layout say otherwise

Or are you saying basic suits have the exact stats as our current suits?

... I'm not going to sit here and explain specialized roles to you.

Look, if there was a "basic" logistics suit and a basic "assault" suit like there is now that costs the same amount of SP that our current suits cost, then I wouldn't give ****, but there aren't. There is just 1 basic medium suit with who knows what stats, and it's not the same as the suits we currently have like what you were claiming they are. So Beers is right, these are just SP sinks.

Now then, I'm done with this, I have no interest in listening to you defend CCP.

Edit: But maybe you should ask yourself "what benefit is there to introducing 'basic' suits?", aside from SP sinks

Who argued this?

You're piquing my competitive nature Iron. Now I want to fight a DEV team of Proto Assault suits vs. our (PFBHz) Slayers in basic suits to see what happens.

How do you know there are't?I'm saying the suits we have now are under the basic tab in uprising, they have been renamed to Medium, and they are equivalent to what we have now.

That makes two people that understand how things are going to work. But everyone is so busy wild mass guessing with a chip on their shoulder, you can't get through to anyone.

IWS please stop posting in my threads because you make no ****** sense and derail an important issue. I don't need cpm trying to fanboi this issue

I feel that derailing trains of thoughts is a far more creative force in getting far better results. I don't want a parade of angry people with angry banners running down the street hopping onto the same band wagons. This screaming yelling and shouting over the horseless wagon gets nowhere fast in genera. I want people to approach the issue as their own and they pull their own wagons and the only thing in that wagon is what they put there.

(To be on topic, just from what I've seen, I too fear that Logi's may be way too good right now >_<)

What if I put a tank in my wagon and it breaks my wagon?

Can I still keep the tank?

O.o

(To be on topic, just from what I've seen, I too fear that Logi's may be way too good right now >_<)

Man, trolling this thread would be like shooting fish in a barrel... with an HMG

Or plasma shotgun shooting a field of melons!

I'm looking at a screenshot of the Minmater Logi suit requirements:

1. Dropsuit Command 1 (x1 multiplier)
2. Minmater Medium Dropsuits 5 (x10 multiplier)

You are right that the skills are more intensive, but they aren't as intensive as you make out.

Also, I don't think you comprehend what tiericide is. Tiericide is the removal of "this is better than that", not the addition. Dust has had tiers (standard, advanced, prototype) since the beginning. This related to items in game only, and not to skills. In fact, the skill tree is more like Eve in this situation (not an endorsement or a detraction of this methodology).

I'd also like to point out that CCP said a year ago that they were giving us an accelerated skill tree during the beta so we could test everything, and that that would be scaled back at release. You were either unaware of this, or chose to ignore. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume you never saw this.

One last thing - your attitude is less likely to get their attention; you come across immature and as a piece of advise I would recommend you change your approach if you want to be listened to. But since I've mentioned this before, I'm sure you will just get angrier at me and ignore my attempts to improve your bad image.

wouldn't that cook the melons?


no thanks

I find this statement funny, 255 million skill points at current even boosted state is about... 10 years of boosters to max out 'current' content. Newer content would be likely nearly double that soon we still have another 80 suits to add and 30-40 vehicles and about 1200 more guns.

So... you want one skill to unlock everything? Why would proficiency in a plasma rifle, help you understand how a grenade launcher works? How does understanding how a speeder works makes you an expert at gunships? why would understanding squad command suit make you understand how to fly an MCC?

At least you're not paying 25$ for a new map, or 60$ for a new expansion.

Either way AUR prices are dropping, confirmed VIA IRC.

Under all current technicalities, you guys are all currently wearing Light, Medium and Heavy Suits, nobody here is wearing scout, logistics, commando, sentinel, assault, pilot suits yet. They're like the muraders of HAVs.

Basic Mediums dont have 2 equipment slots, nor does any Assault suit have two equipment slots.

Logis I fear may be too good for generic combat though.

X1 SP skill = 6220 SP
X2 SP skill = 12440 SP
X3 SP skill = 18660 SP

X5 SP skill = 31100 SP

x10 SP skill = 62200 SP........

So that's for the starting skill. Ive done research with friends and its hard to tell exactly what equation CCP uses when going from level to level, but we do know this. A X1 skill will equal a 310,000 SP investment by level 5. A X2 skill will equal a 621,000 SP investment by Level 5.

A X8 skill like the current suits will cost about 2.5 million SP by level 5.

A x10 skill will tip over 3 million SP in investment. That's about one (or two unboosted) week(s) of skilling. So while it may seem like a lot.... its not "too" bad. Sure it sucks ill have to shell out more SP but at the same time, maybe this will keep the game from being spammed by Proto suits. Lol its funny though cuz at the end of the day im going to end up specing into two protos anyway if I can.

TL;DR
IWS you are just ignorant of how FPS player specialize you think too much like an MMO and need to stop. Perhaps you should not talk and ask questions before you weigh in. Your opinion is way off the point. Also the basic suits in the medium frame categories are lesser version of what we have now, they have lower cpu/pg and modules etc. Yet the higer tiers has the higher cpu/pg(identical to the levels we have currently) and a few racial bonuses that are hardly worth the extra SP. So we have suits currently that are more a hybrid version of the medium frame basics suits and the specialized versions. So its an added SP sink to achieve a similar item that we have now. Large SP sinks like this does not create specialty AND variety. It will kill variety because if you want to be of any use in PC you will choose a role that will be in constant need or see your playtime suffer. Sorry if you think a dedicated DS pilot or tanker will be as in demand as a Assualt or Logi you have your head firmly up a dark orifice.

Just stop, listen, learn, convey to CCP. Nothing more. You are our representative act like it or we will find someone who can.

---

Walks into thread, fails to understand the points, continues to exert his opinion as if it means something. Haven't we told you, as CPM we want you to function as secretary, take the minutes and dictate our opinions and present them to CCP and vice versa not much more. Why?If you were a real deal MVP player or understood anything about FPS and get out of the MMO mindtrap you'd know SP sinks not only force specialization(thats fine) it also diminishes variety. That sink when overburdening means role specialty is chosen based on utility, not variety. THIS a LOBBY FPS not an OPEN WORLD MMO WITH LARGE RAID PARTY. (i could have said this politely but you just had this coming because you still dont get it)

Why because specialty roles have limited viability and utiility in instanced limited player count lobby shooters. You think too much like an MMO and dont get that in FPS roles have to be functional. If they have limited use they are put on the back burner for roles thats have use immediately and consistently.

That means assualt and logi. Everything else is a waste of SP. Sorry i hate to bust your bubble but a dedicated dropship pilot is useless in 16v16. The fact you dont get these things reflect such a level ignorance of your tactical FPS understanding and betrays your years of MMO large player zerg raiding party mentality, where you can play a hyperspecialized rogue or priest or whatever the heck you play and not get that they simply are useless in 16 v 16 beyond a few isolated hyper situational moments.




So say goodbye to
Heavy,
Dropship
Tank
Sniper
Assassin
LAV
Etc etc etc

Why because anyone dumb enough to spend SP in this instead of using militia variants is going to get ROFL stomped and find themselves as a limited use scrub nonfactor. You'd understand that if you knew how to play FPS, clearly you don't. I said to you a long time ago your arrogance and know it all attitude combined with your unwavering fanboism would be the most detrimental thing to CPM and here we are not a week later.



Please stick to be a go between and a secretary please, you do good when you dig up info and get it to the community thats your niche.

In the meantime CCP HURRY THE EFF UP AND ESTABLISH A CHARTER AND ELECTION PROCESS SO WE CAN GET THESE IGNORANT NO CLUE HOW TO DEV A FPS MMO NONFACTOR, NO SKILL PLAYERS OFF THE COUNCIL AND ELECT ACTUAL PLAYERS NOT PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY ARE PLAYERS.

Having the CPm only consist ofd one portion of this games community is a great way to kill it. Having multiple players with differing backgrounds can create a more diverse game.

Also you're in IMPswarm, I'm surprised you can say such large words when your mouth is constantly sucking on the IMPs collective ****.

"ERR MER GERD, IM AN AVERAGE JOE, BUT BECAUSE i'M IN IMPSWARM, IM INSTANTLY DA BEEST KIND OF COMPETITIVE PLAYER."

You forgot to throw in something about being AFK

I don't care about that.

Where did you get the info on slot layouts for the medium suits?

More generally, having the x10 lvl 5 requirement for the new suit subtypes is not going to change the number of prototype suits out there. We know that there are prototype light suits that have the same requirements as the current scout suits.

All medium frames and assault frames are 1 equipment slot, this is intentional.

Having the CPm only consist ofd one portion of this games community is a great way to kill it. Having multiple players with differing backgrounds can create a more diverse game.

Also you're in IMPswarm, I'm surprised you can say such large words when your mouth is constantly sucking on the IMPs collective ****.

"ERR MER GERD, IM AN AVERAGE JOE, BUT BECAUSE i'M IN IMPSWARM, IM INSTANTLY DA BEEST KIND OF COMPETITIVE PLAYER."

You think you're an elite because of the corporation you're in. Impswarm is the scum bucket of negative feedback, bro.

To each their own, but I would've thrown in something about competitive AFKing to really sell it.

Do you know, or can you share with us, what problem this solved? I don't remember anybody complaining about assault suits having 2 equipment slots.

I couldnt agree more, too bad CPM consists of all one type of player. EVE centric MMO, the metagame is everything have no idea how to develop a shooter, everything CCP is doing is spot on because they created EVE and EVE is amazing sycophants. But im not interested in getting in a flame war with you, this issue has more important consequence.

But it seems the MMO hardcore are convinced this model will work for an FPS.


There is a difference between MMO grind to force speciality where role diversity is essential to forming effective parties to handle situations that occur in MMO and for zerg diversity.

IN FPS you kill or you support its really that simple

Killers are assaults and to an minor extent Heavy and Tanks

Everything else is a subdivision of support.

However only Assault and Logi are the main divisions that is really needed for competitive play. Everything else is purely situtaional. Purely situational means limited utility. Limited utility mean less people will want to use it if they want to play.

Because there are only a limited number of slots to play a side.

This game is a long way off from player sizes that will allow for SSR(situational support roles to be useful running full time in match).

How many ppl did you see playing Dropship continuously the entire match during the tourney final? How about tank I saw one and it was of limited use, if the oher team had a clue it would have been lol pwned.


So yea keep creating artificial time sinks by expanding the grind and tell yourself it will work as intended.

Oh look, you can form paragraphs about things that are related to competitive play.


Just because you understand something does not mean you're good.

Impswarm
scum bucket.
Random with a kewl shirt button.


You're nothing.

The reason you have your current suits as they are is so CCP could test out the variety of different playstyles in a beta setting. The reason you won't have them after the build is done, is because that is no longer needed. So the specialized suits, get moved to their appropriate position, and it keeps players like the lot of you from having an I win button on game launch.

Clearly, you all should have seen and understood this. The fact that you didn't and are now raging about it is quite disappointing and indicative of the Dust community in a bad way. Most of us have more then enough SP to spec into a proto suit, but not enough to spec into all of them. This is working as intended.

Regardless of how much you cry, this makes sense. It would be extremely hard to top some of the proto suits currently, there isn't too much more they can do to them. So they reiterate and move the SP requirements up. Quit crying, start playing. Your way of changing it would be even more potentially game breaking then these changes.

Just because no one complains about something, doesn't mean that it isn't a problem.

Nice npc corp dipshit.

Alot of stuff I rather not read but has to.

I do love SP sinks. This game is ruined. F you and your Uprising bs. You failed, CCP. I will, nor will anyone else (the CORPS PLAYERS OF THIS GAME), recommend this game to anyone else bc it is worthless now. All variety is removed and we get SP sinks.

Probably assault suits being too good at what they do; everything. Also building more value for logistics, though logi's seem to be in a really comfy place with Uprising Plus, this makes future variants with an additional equipment slot just that much more appealing.

Just because no one complains about something, doesn't mean that it isn't a problem.

Not to get off topic, but the fitting costs is always another way to limit a suits versatility. Then again an argument can be made that

the Amarr logi with 3 high 3 low 3 equipment and sidearm is kinda a successor to the Caldari vk.0 but with better shield regen delay. But thats debatable.


Keep in mind that for any medium frame skill you spec into you are giving yourself access to both basic assualt and logi suits in that race. Too bad they have horrid fitting costs.


To tie this back on topic. The best solution to justify the 10x multiplier of racial variant specialty suits is they need to have higher EHP. Maybe they have more EHP than the basic variants but they have what we currently have now. The difference between the tier needs to be significant to justifiy it.

Its just bad design. The current proto levels should be the basic, the racial protos should really be a treated like the next tier and get a nice EHP boost along with the bonues thats justifies the SP commitment.

CORPS PLAYERS? Can you correct the spelling mistakes in your post? Are you insinuating that you are "The Core" of the game or that you some how represent them?
I still recommend this game to my friends, and 90% of them have loved it. There have been a few that like the easiness of the COD genre, but this game offered something new, and they were hooked.

You may represent in portion the top competitive side, or the top forum warrior side, but as statistics show, most players don't log into a forum. Dust hasn't failed, you're simply being a cry baby. You know where the door is, go there. Don't waste any more time on a game you don't want to play.

TLDR : The guy I quoted is wrong. Yup.

Sorry I tried arguing for that didn't work out so well most I can get is a slight reduction of costs on the basic frames.

As for fittings under the newest schemes Gallente are the most broken both assault and logi able to go full dualies which is something Amarr are supposed to do and not gal. Base proto frames are decent in their own right and some even have unique stats such as a built in milita repper.

CORPS PLAYERS? Can you correct the spelling mistakes in your post? Are you insinuating that you are "The Core" of the game or that you some how represent them?
I still recommend this game to my friends, and 90% of them have loved it. There have been a few that like the easiness of the COD genre, but this game offered something new, and they were hooked.

You may represent in portion the top competitive side, or the top forum warrior side, but as statistics show, most players don't log into a forum. Dust hasn't failed, you're simply being a cry baby. You know where the door is, go there. Don't waste any more time on a game you don't want to play.

TLDR : The guy I quoted is wrong. Yup.

Oh look, you can form paragraphs about things that are related to competitive play.


Just because you understand something does not mean you're good at executing such things.

Impswarm
scum bucket.
Random with a kewl shirt button.


You're nothing.

Do you know, or can you share with us, what problem this solved? I don't remember anybody complaining about assault suits having 2 equipment slots.

I couldnt agree more, too bad CPM consists of all one type of player. EVE centric MMO, the metagame is everything have no idea how to develop a shooter, everything CCP is doing is spot on because they created EVE and EVE is amazing sycophants. But im not interested in getting in a flame war with you, this issue has more important consequence.

But it seems the MMO hardcore are convinced this model will work for an FPS.


There is a difference between MMO grind to force speciality where role diversity is essential to forming effective parties to handle situations that occur in MMO and for zerg diversity.

IN FPS you kill or you support its really that simple

Killers are assaults and to an minor extent Heavy and Tanks

Everything else is a subdivision of support.

However only Assault and Logi are the main divisions that is really needed for competitive play. Everything else is purely situtaional. Purely situational means limited utility. Limited utility mean less people will want to use it if they want to play.

Because there are only a limited number of slots to play a side.

This game is a long way off from player sizes that will allow for SSR(situational support roles to be useful running full time in match).

How many ppl did you see playing Dropship continuously the entire match during the tourney final? How about tank I saw one and it was of limited use, if the oher team had a clue it would have been lol pwned.

So yea keep creating artificial time sinks by expanding the grind and tell yourself it will work as intended.

I figured this was bound to happen. We all got spoiled with our fast to learn skills that overlapped with lesser requirements for the past few months. Now that the actual skill tree has been realized, it turned into a giant butthurt fest. Of course the actual game was going to be a grind. Did you think we were going to be able to spec into prototype this, that, and proficiency lvl 5 of that on day one? What would the point be of playing. The way I see it, it's the journey, not the destination. But instead, I see a flood of tears QQing about how much SP things cost when stuff like light weapon sharpshooter are going to be gone and heavies won't be slow moving easy kills, and the Nova Knife looks usable now. It's a MMO, it's supposed to be a grind. We all still have a head start on new players, better make the most out of it. I know I will.

*Has played enough shooters to hate all of them in one way or another. There has never been a perfect shooter EVER.

As for the diversity issue I am quite sure there is going to massive complaints about one race's suits being much better than the others. You can call it a grind all you want, but you don't have to spend that SP to get good, nobody is forcing you, if medium frames are your thing go for it.

This is honestly the most mature and well thought out post in this thread. Props to you. Tis game is supposed to be an MMO FPS right? One that will be tied to EVE.... that means that players will need to play this for a long time... This is actually what I'd hoped CCP would do so that we dont see huge swarms of proto level players day one.

As Cosgar said its the journey not the destination. I'll make the fullest out of my journey.

The fundamental point I do agree with is that a SINGLE proto-suite and weapon / build with minimal "buffing" skills should take no longer than two months, if that to obtain.

Either change the equation; more SP, no SP cap (what I prefer this welfare cap is stupid), or less sp for some skills, less pre-reqs, whatever, just make the basic philosophy match the expectations of the players.

It shouldn't take 6mos to be useful in a single specialty....

I'm not as judgmental and knee jerk as Charolotte is being, (I'm still your friend though) but he's right. CCP has been slowly appealing to the twitch arcade FPS crowd. Look at how bad the CoDex build has been. People praying and spraying from outside their weapon's effective range with damage mod stacked Duvolles while wearing shield tanked glass cannon black suits, heavies being nerfed to near uselessness, marauder tanks being taken out by militia swarms; this build is a joke compared to what Dust used to be.
I'm hoping this stuff does get fixed in uprising, but if things keep going in the twitch direction, I'm throwing in the towel too.

I agree that CCP has made some often silly choices in regards to mechanics and layouts, and maps.. and core FPS issues, and quite a few other things. But they are trying, and the game is improving. It might not be the quickest work ever, but they are trying to make it better and knee jerk posts like his serve only to make the situation worse.
Now, you listed out specific reasons for your opinion, and specific things that were wrong. Those posts I respect. You aren't crying as much as you are trying to improve the game. Sorry if I came across harsh, I see posts like that all the time and I just now took the initiative to actually log into these forums.

6 months is kind of generous, there's ships in EVE that take over a year to get into.

Also, relax a bit. There's something more important you're overlooking here. Specializing is going to make you the best, but your skill and experience is going to make that specializing worthwhile. Learn how to use things as you skill up, find out what's good, what sucks, and what's going to fit your playstyle. Once you do get to that proto, you're going to have a full appreciation of it than you did if you could get to it from the start.

DUST =\= EVE how hard a concept is this. Nobody wants to spend year mastering a class in an FPS. How does that mean we seek instant gratification?

Sorry are you suggesting that maxing a character in an MMO grinding skill progression that gives no real reward for the grind other than a lousy racial pasive is somehow MMO?

Better yet unlike EVE a new DUST character simply wont be able to specialize and be immediately useful why? These are not limitless shards where you can create large fleetcomps(raiding paries whatever term you like). When you can do that then a new player can specialize into something, be weaker than the most of the team and still provide utility.

When you have a lobby shooter of fixed number each slot becomes vital and utility is the only factor. New players will simply find themselves riding the bench and barely getting any time play time in corps that are competing at the highest levels. Please keep that in mind before you make the it works in EVE argument. Thanks.


As for how to fix it. one of these

1. Reduce the grind. Make the speciality roles easier to spec into while making the assualt/logi roles the larger SP sink. After all medium frames give me 2 suits for the price of one light or sentinel class.

2. Get rid of the gap and let ppl power grind actively. Or pay for a subscrption/booster(better option since it can be later traded on market) that allows for all active gain to be converted to passive gain should ppl just want to not grind and earn SP.

3. Make the tier difference meaningful and undo all the gear flattening that occured over the course of the beta and really make the grind meaningful by obtaining tangibly better gear

1 high slot. Now what the f*** am I supposed to do. Armor tank?

Awwww, is this your first MMO? You're so demanding and in need of instant gratification. Allow me to respond on CCP's behalf with this rebuttal to your requests.

speed tank
profile dampeners
stealth

sneak behind lines with tons of hacking modules
i hate that Armour tanking vs shield tanking
shield has more benefits than Armour

(in eve Armour penalty is speed and shields is signature radius)
i don't see a sig radius penalty in dust

profile dampeners
stealth

TL;DR

Let me guess you bought PS3 for Dust right? Actually if memory serves correct you did, also your necbeard is glorious and doubles as a necktie if i recall our previous encounter.

So enjoy yet another empty space dark room with no light and no friends, now DUST for you is truly real.

---

Cute seen the HTFU song quite a bit(it's catchy and what i like about CCP they are cool people at the core). Let me teach you how console FPS works players get tired of needless empty grind they move on. Your player count drops you can't get match servers to populate (you might notice it if you had any sense of how the games connection has been due to player dropoff instead of fapping to spreadsheets and letting the secretions crust in your neckbeard).

Played plenty of MMO guess what the grind had meaning in all of them. They dont in this game. But yup keep telling yourself the model will work on console cause we are getting older and dont mind the grind.

Sorry consolers even the hardcore game on consoles to unwind, relax and destress. Not grind to develop some aberrant connection to their avatar out of some misplaced lack of real human connection thats filled by the gap of a virtual imagined character.

They wont stick around and will simply move on. Thats already happening and this system will only make it worse, and unlike EVE which is a single shard server that can run with 40K active because its open world. This is FPS in a lobby, matchmaking fails when the numbers get too low and by CCP own account when matches cant be found in your region they place you in other regions and with server side hit detection match integrity begins to wane when that happens FPS players will just leave.

Not even titans have the training time of the new dropsuits. You could max out every factional Titan 20 times over while getting all of four dust suits.

If the numbers on this equate out right then I definitely agree that it is a problem. I've been playing Eve for about 6 years now, and I have all cruisers, all frigs, basically every weapon system and most ships in the game, minus titans. Point being, that Dust being an FPS, should be faster to train into these things, and much more simple to operate in. I would be fine training a month to get Titan 3 or 4 in eve. I would not be fine training a month to get a new drop suit.

However, my recent petition with Dust about the SP cap said they would be removing it Soon(TM) and that may very well be a reason for the higher SP requirements.

Iron Wolf: I honestly don't care about the "advanced" suit costs, they can stay 10X for all I care. but what justifies the existence of the "basic" suits? They honestly seem pointless, aside from being something we have to spend SP on.

Also, do you need the "basic frame" skill to level 5 before you can specialize into a role?

You do not need basic frame to 5 to specialize into a role.

To use a Basic Logistics suit, you need level 1 in both. 3 for advanced, 5 for prototype.

The specialized suits are not the suits we have right now; our Caldari Assault is the equivalent of the Caldari Medium Dropsuit, not the Caldari Assault Dropsuit. The key difference being the two bonuses that the latter gets, not so much the suit stats.

I've had my PS3 since release, and I'm primarily a console gamer. Guess you were busy AFKing to do your research. I understand how the console market works, but do you understand how the MMO market works? Players are rewarded for the time they put in. You put in a little time, you get little back, you invest... well... you get the idea. Casual gaming is the cancer that's killing the entertainment media market as a whole. Trophies, easy mode, arcade style FPS... everything. Dust is something new and original, bringing an antipode of new and old concepts to create a pseudo 3rd concept. But instead of embracing the change, you want to dump all over it. Quite frankly, I don't know why casuals want to play this game. If you want instant gratification, go back to your mom's basement and rack up kills from spawn camping in CoD. If you want respect, in this game, earn it like everyone else. For a bunch of people playing games about shooting each other in the face
you "hardcore" FPS types are a whiny lot.

Also, keep in mind that this information was taken from the tournament build and CCP isn't above some good old fashioned trolling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=US92PR1tI1o

This is a FPS MMO, stop trying to make it a MMO FPS. And if youve owned an PS3 since launch you sir are an idiot and don't remotely pay attention to market trends if you did you'd know that this model of long term needless grind does nothing for the shooter enthusiasts. And there simply arent enough MMO enthusiasts on CONSOLE and the ones that are will be distracted by other more enjoyable and rewarding MMOs on CONSOLE if they arent playing MMO on PC.

I really dont have time waste arguing with you about my Hardcore credentials, but i actually hold down a job and game hard. Im successful in life and games, you mad bro? Id be if i were a neckbeard that thinks he knows how consoles should run.

Grinding like its a second job doesn't make you a hardcore gamer, it makes you an idiot who doesnt understand that time is money and efficiency trumps brute dedication. If you had any sense you'd understand the concept of work smarter not harder. Hardcore gamer is the one who will play for hours but wants to be able to make a difference in the game and are a factor in the game. They can kick ass in game for a few hours, log off, get some sun, have some fun, get laid and come back to their games for which they are willing to spend their money on.

Like i said gimme an option to pay to avoid the grind and ill pay it, because my time is valuable to me and i dont waste it funneled into a single hobby, IE tomorrow ill be hitting the golf course.

Passive SP may provide it at a base rate, but gimme an option to pay for my active gain to be converted to passive and let me grind it out all at once on a month to month and then earn an inflated soft cap for a "fee" because my time is valuable sorry you dont value yours, or you have nothing better to do with it.

[
Yup, definitely whiny....

Yup definitely ignorant. Enjoy the bliss while your beloved perfectly developed game's population tanks out and ceases to hold numbers needed to host proper "matchmaking" (see a lot of that in MMO too right )

X10 is suppose to rare .... In eve only a few skills are that high, dust aims to have 24 of them just in dropsuits.

Thats a total of 124 million sp. That's 40 years alone . Ccp I've waited 6 years to play dust, eve since beta almost, but I refuse to play your game unless you bring the total sp amount to something reasonable like in eve.

You've made it so training all of the frigates of eve online took 40 years to train ! What were you thinking !

Not sure what math you are using but at max sp per week not counting after cap one can earn 27,955,200 sp per year so that's 4.4 years to gain 124 mil sp

Just out of curiosity what numbers and calculations are you guys going on?

And what is CCP going to tell people who've been using boosters now because they didn't know they'd gain more if they had saved them for a later date? You can't just double Sp gains or something like that. This 3x Sp event is one thing, making the change permanent would devalue every booster used up until this point.

Now that sounds like a money grab. Bare in mind that I haven't used a booster and therefore have no personal stake in the matter.

There's nothing to complain about. People who use boosters made the decision based on the information and status of the game available at that time. CCP has no obligation to keep the same SP system indefinitely. Besides, the gains you have received from using boosters will not go away.

I have used a few boosters and am fine with it.

As a vehicle driver i have to sink more SP into my proffession than any of you

Right now uprising looks like it may kill the whole vehicle route while it turns into AR514 and your complaining that it will be slighty harder for you to skill into

At least you have a role to skill into

Maybe they don't have legal obligation, but they have an obligation to be clear to their customers, something they suck at.

Pleas, don't give anyone ideas about another EULA/legal action topic.

You really want new/casual players to spend 6 months to get to a protosuit/weapon config? You think they are going to stick around?

Why not? It gives me a chance to google laws I know nothing about!

Just out of curiosity what numbers and calculations are you guys going on?

Does that mean you'll finally be qutting Dust 514 and being the boil on this forum's ass?

Please IMPS Go away, we know your only here until the 'next cool game'. People who have actualy played CCP games for the last 10 years dont want you ruining the progression because you now cant afford your proto weapons and suits.

OMGAWD YOUR ALL IDDIOTS CANNY YOU SEE I CANT SPEC INTO EVERYTHING IN A YEAR OF AFK /QQQQQQ

Maybe if you spent less time warrioring on the forums rather than actually playing this game(Well afking anyway) then you would realise that its not in everyones best interest.

CCP clearly said we were on an accelerated skill tree for the beta, its nerfed for the greater good. CCP has the stats, game designers who have been doing the job aslong as your scrubby jobless self has been alive.

I trust their opinion alot more than some scrubby know-it-all-bum-licker of a corp.

At the end of the day this game isnt going to be around for 1-2 years, we are here for the long haul. If that isn't what you wanted from DUST then you have basically wasted your time!. LOL

Please IMPS Go away, we know your only here until the 'next cool game'. People who have actualy played CCP games for the last 10 years dont want you ruining the progression because you now cant afford your proto weapons and suits.

OMGAWD YOUR ALL IDDIOTS CANNY YOU SEE I CANT SPEC INTO EVERYTHING IN A YEAR OF AFK /QQQQQQ

Maybe if you spent less time warrioring on the forums rather than actually playing this game(Well afking anyway) then you would realise that its not in everyones best interest.

CCP clearly said we were on an accelerated skill tree for the beta, its nerfed for the greater good. CCP has the stats, game designers who have been doing the job aslong as your scrubby jobless self has been alive.

I trust their opinion alot more than some scrubby know-it-all-bum-licker of a corp.

At the end of the day this game isnt going to be around for 1-2 years, we are here for the long haul. If that isn't what you wanted from DUST then you have basically wasted your time!. LOL

Nah ill stick around to remind you how stupid you are and have zero indication on what you are talking about, while i proceed to take your stuff in game. Good luck trying to stop me you're too weak to put up a fight.

Then ill logon occasionally while i play another game more regularly to continually curbstomp you. Hope you didnt plan on doing anything in PC sorry you want be too successful there

So much for peace and quiet. At least I don't have to put up with your B/S in game since you're so busy guarding that MCC. If you weren't so easy to troll, I wouldn't even be responding to you. Were you born with your jimmies rustled, or did it just happen over time?

Who being trolled, im rather enjoying reading you argue like an idiot who gleefully defends the desire to spend years developing a virtual character to obtain some sense of "pride" in the "achievement" Perhaps if you could get some sex things done to you, youd actually see things my way. But generally a prerequisite to that is hygiene and being able to see your willy.

Yeah, paint that neckbeard image on me. Throw in those personal attacks. Typical IMP fashion. If you spent as much time playing as you do trying to be an e-thug, maybe you wouldn't worry about grinding for SP to get better tech. You such a badass you could do it using militia, right?

Remind me how you are still relevant to this game? Really when will the carebears learn to listen to the voice of GAWD.

Oh the long haul you fool can be achieved without mindless grind, or do i need to redirect you to my post about efficiency and time is money. Perhaps if you "hardcore" MMO had a life outside your video games you'd note there is a big world out there to enjoy. I dont want nor should any sensible human being to feel the need to grind to progress and therefore keep up with anyone who wants to just live their life in this game.

Persistance, action and consequence, player driven content and the free expansions is what keeps this game going past 1-2 years. Or are all you "geniuses" admitting that beyond grinding this game to CAP there is nothing left to do in this game? Didn't think so. Feel free to STFU since your only reason to defend a grind is because your only sense of achievement in this game comes from unlcoking new stuff. Mine comes from winning and taking your stuff. Sorry you don't know what that feeling is like . But hey maybe one day we will "retire" and you will get your chance

I have deleted some personal attacks from this thread.

scrubby know-it-all-bum-licker of a corp.

Cause it true bro.

You're mean. We're not friends anymore.