So once a week I have to put over 3mil sp back into the same skills, and I have to do this every week until release? no thank you

So once a week I have to put over 3mil sp back into the same skills, and I have to do this every week until release? no thank you

This game, as part of the eve universe, is supposed to be hard. There is no reset button and your mistakes will have consequences. Deal with it and give up on your help me I made a mistake and need a hug from my momma ways. Repent! REPENT!! RE-PE-NT!!!

BETA BETA BETA
Actually, there is very little I would change in my own builds long term, but I would however thoroughly enjoy a week or so as a dropship captain will full mods or other builds during the BETA as something to do other than grind away. I am not at all surprised by the negative responses from this crowd which despite some great people... is full of elitist trollish type internet QQ OP "momma" scrub speakers unable to reply with a meaningful response. I enjoy this game, but will not wave the DUST IS GREAT NOTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE JUST WAIT WAIT WAIT crowd. Right now it's a lobby shooter and very has little to offer people but despite that, it's being advertised as just about finished. Playing around with different builds during the BETA, might be fun and enticing to people who they are sure to lose otherwise. Like it or not there WILL be a reset and I did include the option to opt out of resets. So I guess we can assume each no, is a selfish one.

Soozu

A few good responses now so thank you. However, most seem to ignore all the points I made and simply say this is not the EVE way or have noted the fact I suggest this during BETA, and not long term. Suggesting if I want to try being a dropship pilot by putting in the skillpoints for it... well that doesn't go with the EVE way at all of picking a setup and sticking with it.

I say let's face facts, DUST 514 is not EVE, DUST is trying to appeal to a different crowd, but the game ain't ready. Refunding the SP is a temporary fix to a big problem, DUST lacks content and this would give people something to play with while we wait.

As far as saying a refund on SP for sure won't happen, I'm just going with what the Devs have said they're considering / planning and what people are sure to demand when all the new race goodies and gear come out.

There is a clear difference between people in game, and the hardcore [EVE] people who spend time on these forums. People I've spoken to in game all want to see this. Most are not EVE players, they didn't have the advantage of understanding the menu's modules and skill point system that most forum users seem to. [--> Read as overly confusing.] They want this and seeing as how the game is still in BETA open or closed, they're the majority and I think should get it. After all, they're playing catch up and it's not EVE players who will make DUST 514 a success.

Why is this a good thing? How would they test the game if it reset every week? It would cause an increase in highly unlikely scenarios which the feedback would become based upon giving bad foundation to build the rest of the game off of. Hundreds of people would just use accumulated SP to become monstrous creations foregoing SP that they probably would've invested elsewhere to further survive but instead, because they'd have lots of SP, they'd skip them and go straight to ultimate glass cannons or tanks and cause "Skipped Feedback"

If they "have lots of SP" I imagine they understand the system better than they did than while they were spending that AP the first time. Therefore they would be creating a better build given the chance. Like I said, I would consider this a temporary game feature. There is precedent for it, and in very successful games I might add. But hey, I don't have a problem destroying glass tanks, sounds fun.

The DEVs clearly stated that we will have NO MORE RESETS UNLESS SOMETHING CATASTROPHIC HAPPENS.

If you don't like what you have trained skill something else or make a new char.

We've only said we won't reset your SP to 0. We haven't said anything about not refunding your SP and allowing you to respec. That option is still on the table prior to release if we feel it will be worthwhile.

You shouldn't generalise not all of us are eve players, there are more than a few regulars on this forum who just came straight into dust, all of us ****** up our sp allocation at some point. I screwed mine up when I started playing the beta again after it moved to tranquillity, in fact I messed it up so bad I restarted on this character. So I understand where you guys are coming from when you complain and the game does do a poor job of explaining things, but you guys have always had the option to ask for help before you spend any single sp points, it falls to us the players to help new players understand what to do. Besides i believe there's a saying in eve "there is no wasted sp" chances are your probably going to end up using those skills at some point.

Thank you, and you're right I shouldn't generalize. But the difference between people I've discussed it with in-game and those on the forums is a 180 point of view.

From this thread -> https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=458396#post458396

"
#1 Posted: 2013.01.08 17:18 | Report | Edited by: Iron Wolf Saber
Like
10JAN2013

Strap your boots on soldiers its hot drop o' clock in Tranquility we will be moving servers on the 10th as confirmed via IRC today
IRC wrote:

<11:11:11>CCP Nullarbor >> 10th is a server change and character reset.
<11:11:30>CCP Nullarbor >> and will very likely be the last character reset (we have no more planned.) "

I agree with this. Why call it a beta if we cannot possibly test something without being bounded for all eternity to it? I mean, by the current method you might as call this game released as of January 10th and everything else is just an expansion to an already released game.

To all those concerned about the "flavor of the week' thing, keep in mind this would only be for while in the beta stage so beta testers can actually test. The game is supposed to "release" in the Summer right? So it wouldn't be for that long. Plus the data from the beta should increase substantially with players able to test a wider array of gear. Currently we may have someone say "Type B Assault dropsuits are over powered" or "Prototype heavy suits are not worth the cost for the one extra slot" or stuff like that, but all most people are judging this off of is numbers which isn't always the best indicator. Having to ability to actually go in the battlefield with whatever is in question (if you have enough skill points for it) would give the tester a much better idea for the matter.

I agree with this. Why call it a beta if we cannot possibly test something without being bounded for all eternity to it? I mean, by the current method you might as call this game released as of January 10th and everything else is just an expansion to an already released game.

To all those concerned about the "flavor of the week' thing, keep in mind this would only be for while in the beta stage so beta testers can actually test. The game is supposed to "release" in the Summer right? So it wouldn't be for that long. Plus the data from the beta should increase substantially with players able to test a wider array of gear. Currently we may have someone say "Type B Assault dropsuits are over powered" or "Prototype heavy suits are not worth the cost for the one extra slot" or stuff like that, but all most people are judging this off of is numbers which isn't always the best indicator. Having to ability to actually go in the battlefield with whatever is in question (if you have enough skill points for it) would give the tester a much better idea for the matter.

Please see my post above yours on this page, use of the method proposed by the OP will delay the proper development cycle of the beta due to reasons outlined there.

It's pretty clear that the pro-SP-respec folks have already made up their minds in believing what the OP believes. No amount of valid evidence can make them change their minds. They are entitled to their own opinions, just not to their own facts.

.... the ISK spent on purchasing the skillbooks. This will kill or at least maim a number of problematic birds with one very large stone.

Pros

- Newbs spend their SP unwisely at the start, give them a chance to play the game and fix their errors.
- This is a BETA, we are your testers, but the equipment we can test for you is limited to what we can use in battle. This would greatly expand our ability to test stuff and give feedback.
- This is BETA and you have said this is likely to happen at some point anyway.
- This is BETA and a great many game features are missing, this gives those getting bored of lobby play a reason to stick. "Well well well, I can be a heavy for a week???" etc
- We don't have a market to trade and sell. HOWEVER we do have piles and piles of loot we cannot use. Allow us to respend our SP and voila! We can start tearing into our stockpiles of proto gear we've picked up despite lack of market.
- Give ALL players a better feel for the game as a whole as they would now be able to completely restyle their play every week.


Cons

- A handful of people whining that the game is a long term "spend your SP wisely like I did" types who forget it's a BETA and this is gonna happen anyway.

My suggestion, do it every Wednesday until full release. Toons who do not want the refund should be able to "decline refund" at character selection. <-- Edited

Soozu

How about a respec token costing a few thousand aurum. That should keep it at as an emergency "oh crap i screwed up" button.

You are still ignoring the most important point of all - if you can just reallocate all your SP, no one will ever test out the lower level weapons, so you won't be testing everything, as this entire proposal's point is based upon.

Furthermore, every single player does not need to test every single weapon in the game. There are a million+ characters who are already testing every single thing in the game between them in probably every single combination - you do not need to do this personally.

All the weapons we currently have available have been around for many many months and have been pretty tested to death. These are no longer CCP's primary focus for the beta. Release sounds likely to be in the next 6 months, in which time they will need to have a functional and tested player market and integration with EvE, as these are key elements of the core game design.

Finally, as has already been stated, there will be no more resets, so you are stuck with your build as is. That is not to say you are not allowed to spec into other things, you just have to work your way up the levels and will be forced to play with the lower level gear as you do so. This is as intended and actually works wonderfully as a testing system because it means even the crappier stuff will get tried out.

Personally, If there isn't a respec at release, CCP can forget ever getting another dime out of me. Either we're in beta and testing different elements of the game, or were released and decisions have consequences. Pick one; You cannot have both.

I think your "most important point" has been rightfully ignored as it is obvious who tests the lower tiered items. Just maybe not to you.

It's pretty clear that the pro-SP-respec folks have already made up their minds in believing what the OP believes. No amount of valid evidence can make them change their minds. They are entitled to their own opinions, just not to their own facts.

Who in their right mind would run anything other than proto gear if they could just focus on a single different thing every week? What incentive would there possibly be for people to use lower tier gear?

There would still be plenty of low-tier gear being used.

Yes, and their would also be plenty of nerf this nerf that threads.

So a lengthy speech ends the discussion?

Personally I don't see this as being anywhere near as bad as people are making it out to be. Instead of discussing this and iterating on it to maybe make a small gem of an idea, we get responses like: "Heyul naw!!!"

If the respec was a player choice and not a once a week event then we get two things from this:
- People respec and have fun with new gear and see what happens when they try a different playstyle.
- Playing the game differently allows more diverse feedback from more players choosing to play differently.

This idea is great when considered like this as CCP will get more diverse feedback on many things (and let's not forget they don't have to listen to "QQ something is OP"). Add to this the fact that people will stay interested in the game for longer allowing CCP more time to get real stuff done, means that CCP get more money.

Great post, especially that last part which I hadn't even considered. The time between builds can get quite lengthy and with all the limited content while in beta it's easy for players to lose interest that they may have moved on by the time the game releases.

Great post, especially that last part which I hadn't even considered. The time between builds can get quite lengthy and with all the limited content while in beta it's easy for players to lose interest that they may have moved on by the time the game releases.

Also, completely ignores all the extremely good points raised in the 'lengthy speech'.

Which was entirely tl;dr for someone with a life to live right now, maybe I'll give it a look when I have nothing better to do. You could also address the points I raised but are instead trying to be funny.

The main point I am raising is to try and find something workable in this idea, because skill respecs are something that the more casual players want and also what we should be entitled to. Like it or not, casual players will be the main source of income and publicity for this game.

And please correct me if I'm wrong but there actually is a respec in EVE, just not for skill points. You can respec your attributes (twice a year?) to get training times faster in certain areas. This could easily be applied to Dust and give all players a chance to respec in some form of time constraint that would be considerably shorter for the beta.

Edit: Not everybody was able to get into the closed beta, and the current build doesn't accurately reflect much of what happened therein. Please stop saying "you had your chance in the closed beta" - thanks.

A respec? Really now? You would think a complete reset would make far more sense...

There is a respec system in EvE but it certainly is nowhere near every week and you can't respec absolutely everything, which is what this thread suggests should happen. There is absolutely no advantage to CCP to have a weekly respec. Zero.

I'm not trying to be funny. None of this is funny. It's a bad idea and should not even be entertained by CCP.

And you are completely wrong about casual players being the main source of income to this game - that would be true of a boxed FPS but with free to play games casual players tend to put very little if any money into playing. It is the hardcore player-base that actually pays real money into F2P games.

Also, that post you've quoted was a one off from someone who didn't really contribute anything to the discussion - when us others refer to the closed beta, we are not reiterating that point. We are saying that the beta testing of all the gear was done previously and doesn't need to be done significantly more now, thus refuting the point that the OP makes by suggesting that he needs to personally test every single thing in the game.

Which was entirely tl;dr for someone with a life to live right now, maybe I'll give it a look when I have nothing better to do. You could also address the points I raised but are instead trying to be funny.

The main point I am raising is to try and find something workable in this idea, because skill respecs are something that the more casual players want and also what we should be entitled to. Like it or not, casual players will be the main source of income and publicity for this game.

And please correct me if I'm wrong but there actually is a respec in EVE, just not for skill points. You can respec your attributes (twice a year?) to get training times faster in certain areas. This could easily be applied to Dust and give all players a chance to respec in some form of time constraint that would be considerably shorter for the beta.

Edit: Not everybody was able to get into the closed beta, and the current build doesn't accurately reflect much of what happened therein. Please stop saying "you had your chance in the closed beta" - thanks.

Edit: Not everybody was able to get into the closed beta, and the current build doesn't accurately reflect much of what happened therein. Please stop saying "you had your chance in the closed beta" - thanks.

So a lengthy speech ends the discussion?

Personally I don't see this as being anywhere near as bad as people are making it out to be. Instead of discussing this and iterating on it to maybe make a small gem of an idea, we get responses like: "Heyul naw!!!"

This idea is great when considered like this as CCP will get more diverse feedback on many things

I too could write a wordy two part response outlining each and every point I was trying to make and call it won, but I instead believe that most people get the general idea and concept. That respecing has its advantages and is not a game breaker.

This was a solid discussion, did you not read Cross' posts?

The problem with the feedback, diverse as you see it, as I will iterate again, will enact scenarios that on the grandscale would occur next to zilch in the finished game. These kinds of scenarios if tested through, will generate the feedback that I've been talking about, the feedback that misleads the developers.

It's like basing a monster defense system on the one time Godzilla has the Flu, the runs, and a hangover.

We must test the beta like the finished product would be played.

"Ahahaha!"

.

Edit: As for the link provided by Cross, thanks. Although they are doing a great job of "real" testing, not all of us have the knowledge or know how to work that kind of stuff out. I personally am an artist, not a mathematician so my feedback is obviously going to be qualitative. This doesn't mean this kind of feedback is worth any less to CCP.

For the record it was not my intent to imply that mathematics/quantitative feedback was the only valid kind, nor that qualitative feedback holds no place in the sphere of beta testing. I offer my sincere apologies if I have given that impression.

Further as you mention in your post one of the best ways to aid testers/players in understanding how balanced things can be is to allow them to try out those things for themselves. While in my assessment respecs are not the correct way to go about this within D514 I do agree with and support the general concept stated.

It is my perception that a full array of militia variations (as they require no SP investment to employ) combined with a 'shooting range' (something easy to code that would let players get a feel for the effectiveness of various weapons on armor vs shields at an array of ranges) would open things up to providing players this same type of benefit without running afoul of the problems invoked by the respec method. (Even absent the shooting range, a full array of militia items would still offer these benefits albeit in a somewhat more restrictive manner)

On a closing note while I analyze points rather intently and am dogged in calling for details it is not my intent to be discourteous in my postings. I know however that sometimes I fail at conveying this and offer my apologies on this count if such has been the case here.

Cheers,
Cross

It's not your problem, just sometimes I have a hard time with so many words on my phone's screen but I thank you for clarifying nonetheless.

It also seems we have found some common ground as I think militia variations of everything is definitely the best way to go in favour of understanding different playstyles, with the only problem being the huge difference between militia and proto gear, but I can settle on this point.

With that said I still think that a simple bi-yearly respec of some skills could very much find a place in the final version of Dust, just as there is a similar respec option in EVE. To further this point only slightly, perhaps the skill you respec could be locked out for a lengthy period of time, meaning that your choices could have even bigger consequences.

Thanks again Cross for clarifying your points, much appreciated.

I'm glad we've reached a point of more common ground, and thank you for taking the time to participate in the discussion that led to it.

Regarding an EVE style "respec". The option in EVE is remap that when used goes on a 12 month cooldown timer. In essence you can remap once per year. The effects of this remap are not to alter any of the skills or SP you have currently invested but rather to provided a faster rate of gain within a selected specialized area at the cost of taking a slower rate of gain throughout the other areas available. The system would need some mechanic refitting to mesh with Dust but I see no reason the fundamental concept would not also be viable within D514. (As a side note regarding some of my prior points, if this method were slated to work within the live release the having it now during beta would trigger none of the potential problems I've mentioned in this thread).

Since rate of SP gain works differently within Dust perhaps the reworked version would discount the cost of skills within a specific sub-group allowing for more specialization while raising the cost on all skills outside of the selected group. A note worth keeping in mind, when I mention "specialization" it is more of a "weapons, armor, or equipment" question than a "Logi, Assault, or HAV" question.

My idea likely needs further refinement but would that adaptation be moving in the direction you're looking for?

Cheers,
Cross

Glad we've finally gotten this discussion to a sensible place and I feel I can throw my support behind the current direction.

But just to make absolutely clear to anyone new joining the thread - the OP idea of a weekly respec has been completely and utterly thrown out. There is no need to post any more about that suggestion. Please read Cross and Rinon's latest posts above to understand and contribute accordingly.

Thanks guys.

I'd vote "no" to any kind of respec/refund other than refund of SP used for skills that become obsolete due to changes to the game (i.e., a certain skill gets removed completely).

Reason being that you can effectively learn all the skills available, so in no way are you limited by your choices. Any type of respec would, even if only slightly, increase "FOTM" speccing.

Also, if a respec option becomes available, it won't be long before people ask for more respec options. I think CCP would be wise to stick to "your choices are final". Since, again, your choices in no way limit your future options, it is not possible to make an uncorrectable mistake.

I would agree with you if we hadn't already covered this several times. You can't have flavour of the month when the respec is yearly, do you propose a new acronym: FOTY?

Let me re-iterate that this would be a limited respec of redundant or scarcely developed skills on a yearly basis. The skill you take points away from would either give diminishing returns or add a multiplier to the group which that skill belonged to.

As for the comment about CCP yielding to "more respec options" then I have to ask on what basis did you found this claim? CCP are open to suggestions and will do what they feel is progress in the right direction. If they feel a respec option within such limited parameters is viable and a good fit for Dust then that is up to them, if not then so be it.

The ability to shape the game is in our hands, take the opportunity instead of ignoring everything we have worked out in this thread and disagreeing with it.

FOTY, yes, that would work ;) No but seriously, what I mean by this is that any option to (partially) change your skill layout will in some way promote using that option to spec into whatever seems most OP. I admit that with what you propose the impact would be tiny.

But, that combined with the fact that I simply so no reason whatsoever to allow any kind of respec option leads to my opinion on this suggestion (and more broadly on any form of respec options): I'd rather not see it happening.

However yes, obviously it's up to CCP. I was just voicing my opinion on the matter.

In EVE ONLINE there was an option to reset your SP but only like once a year or something like that. That would be a cool option but certainly not every week, where's the fun in that?
It's part of the learning curve to be able to manage your SP wisely!

And that doesn't make you think it was removed for a reason?

No reason tp help people too lazy to look up how the game works

And you wanna know what that changes into? People leaving ptw games

It isn't ptw but buying resets would make it ptw, they're suppose to be consequences for not planning ahead and this is one of them

/so whenever things change does it or does it not allow someone to change into the next unbalanced/buffed weapon?

That's fair enough, but you can't just ignore the advantages for the type of respec we have worked out. The new/casual players need the ability to redo at least some of their choices due to the game's steep learning curve. Perhaps even one single reset in the lifetime of a character could help but this brings back some of the problems mentioned earlier.

I could go on to say that I understand where you're coming from, that life doesn't give any second chances but this is a game. CCP's real world business depends on how well this game does. If they want it to do well then they need to adapt to a brand new market that is nothing like the EVE one, a fact which I hope they already know, and which few people take into account when discussing ideas like these.

I understand where you're coming from, and I admit that the type of respec you propose wouldn't be that much of an issue. I'd still prefer a hard line one respeccing just to play safe. I admit some people may have issues with the learning curve but I think that should be addressed through other means (tutorials, trial suits, etc).

I still believe that since any choice you make will never limit future choices, respecs are simply not required.

Being an upholder of Eve online orthodoxy, I reject the notion of SP respeccing.

And it's good to see that a good chunk of the posters are pro-no speccing. ^^

If you misplaced it that means you willingly put it there, so now you're just able to use the new FOTM rifle instead, which is a what ccp is trying to avoid which they have done so far

Why mot just have an option to respec for like 1M ISK

No reason tp help people too lazy to look up how the game works

Actually there is. DUST has been missing the tutorials that all games have these days, and ccp is aware of it. Most of the people coming in now have never played EVE. They are at a distinct disadvantage. Calling them "lazy" is in fact a suggestion you might not have given much thought to. One might call it a lazy point of view.

While it is true that tutorials and other "guidance" should be introduced to help new players, I don't think their absence is a reason to allow respeccing.

When you first start playing the game without having read anything about it out-of-game, you will choose your first character. Lets assume you pick a role you (think you) like.

Then, you spend the starter SP you've received. Now you could use them on completely useless skills... but if you take 2 minutes to glance over the skills you have and the skills that are available, you should be able to flesh out your starter build with it and not completely waste those points.

After that, you gain SP as you play. I would assume that through playing the game you get an understanding of what you like to do and which skills help you do it. You'll probably make mistakes, or decide that you want to go another route every now and again. But that is exactly why I'm against respecs of any kind. Training one or two skills that you end up not using in your basic build isn't really that much of a problem. Completed builds take millions of SP, so misplacing a say 100 000 is really not that bad and will teach you to think about what you do next time.

So, unless you've created a character and then parked the game for a few months, which means you'd have a massive amount of SP to spend all at once with no experience and/or knowledge of the game, you should learn as you go along. If you still make huge mistakes (i.e. misplace millions of SP) you are, in fact, being lazy (or not too bright).

Now of course, there will be players who don't care about finding out how stuff works, they just want to pewpew. That's fine, but I'm not sure this is the ideal game for that. If CCP does want to cater to that crowd as well, I'd propose "standard progression paths" that would pick their skills for them rather than respecs.

I won't argue with any of that. I do however look at the issue from a different point of view. How to keep people interested.? Thus making this game a success. Allowing early stage respecs I would consider a huge incentive for those frustrated gamers [and from reading the forums it appears there are many] due to confusing menus [which I hear they're revamping] and lack of content, to stick around during the remainder of the BETA. A temporary game feature. How it might be implemented I know not. From the discussion, I gather it would upset most of the EVE crowd.

To put it another way. To offset the newb uphill climb, confusing menus and lack of content and tutorials... throw them a bone for a few months and let they play around with their SP. We might find that they're even better at the game than the standard blueberry once they find their niche.

I see where you're coming from and while I still think respecs are a bad idea in general, I would be willing to posit a temporary compromise and say anyone under 1 million SP can have unlimited respecs. Noobs would flit all over the place and there'd be shed-loads of FOTM going on at low levels but it wouldn't last long because even if you only count passive SP (without boosters), you hit 1 million SP within 21 days. If you're actually playing and hit your cap (with boosters) you'd get there in about a week. I think this would give beta noobs a chance to figure stuff out until there are tutorials/guides/more info or whatever else is brought in to make starting up easier.

I see where you're coming from and while I still think respecs are a bad idea in general, I would be willing to posit a temporary compromise and say anyone under 1 million SP can have unlimited respecs. Noobs would flit all over the place and there'd be shed-loads of FOTM going on at low levels but it wouldn't last long because even if you only count passive SP (without boosters), you hit 1 million SP within 21 days. If you're actually playing and hit your cap (with boosters) you'd get there in about a week. I think this would give beta noobs a chance to figure stuff out until there are tutorials/guides/more info or whatever else is brought in to make starting up easier.

But that's the thing... if a respec is only for small amount of SP (either not a full respec or only respec when below a total amount of SP) they aren't really needed because it doesn't take all that long to get that amount of SP again and this time put it where you want it. Have you then "lost" the misplaced SP? No, the skills are still there, you might even end up using them one day... We have militia gear to try out play styles we are not skilled for. To allow people to find their niche I think it would be better to focus on that approach. For instance, put up fully-fitted militia suits for specific roles and promote them to new players. This will allow people to try different things and see what they like in an easy way.

But that's the thing... if a respec is only for small amount of SP (either not a full respec or only respec when below a total amount of SP) they aren't really needed because it doesn't take all that long to get that amount of SP again and this time put it where you want it. Have you then "lost" the misplaced SP? No, the skills are still there, you might even end up using them one day... We have militia gear to try out play styles we are not skilled for. To allow people to find their niche I think it would be better to focus on that approach. For instance, put up fully-fitted militia suits for specific roles and promote them to new players. This will allow people to try different things and see what they like in an easy way.

Not a bad suggestion. But that does take the fun out of playing around with it doesn't it? And preset freebie gear we have. But it gets stomped on. SPing properly into those fits while you test them out would help.

you could give a 10 skill reset capability in the skills section, would give a bit more variability, without going too far off in the "i wanna try prototype dropships today" direction, give the guy a chance, i for one, would love to get rid of my nova knives/shotgun operation lv4's tyvm

I like that idea. I suspect you'll rack up a few more likes for it too. Even some of the naysayers might admit they'd like to have a couple in the bank. Though they'd probably say 10 is too many. 5 maybe?

Skill resets are not needed and skill books can be kept forver and you can eventually learn that skill.

Reason: You have a bunch of Free BPC for all the base classes. Militia Gear is super cheap and requires no skills. I actually think the Militia gear and free BPCs are overpowered and game breaking. Oh hey, I get a free Car whenever I feel like ? Awesome. I can save up for a few rounds and then get like 6 basic tanks? Awesome.

If they remove the BPCs and Militia gear, then yes I would agree skill resets are needed.


[Edit]: And any skills that really are bad, can be balanced later. Thats why we are in Beta

.... Militia gear doesn't exist for all items in the game and so your argument for that is invalid. Either we get more militia fits or we can get some form of reset to try out some new stuff....

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63890&find=unread

Here is what that says.....

We have been getting a lot of questions about Skill Point resets lately. In order to help everyone find this information, here is CCP's official stance on resetting skill points.

We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic.


...... that is not what we're discussing here at all. [ I did the underlining of what you seemed to have missed. ] In fact, by posting this and excluding the respec, to me suggests they are still considering / planning it. And most likely reading this thread for suggestions and insights.

Yea but most stuff you can try, you can run as a medic, assault, sniper, drive a tank, drive a car, get a plane, The only nonmilitia thing I saw was a heavy, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't really see what you are missing.

Respecs (the removal of already spent SP which is then placed back into the unallocated SP pool) aren't the proper solution, they're somewhat analogous to taking painkillers for a back or shoulder injury. You alleviate some of the symptoms at the front end while making the overall problems worse in the long run. For much of my analysis on that front see my earlier posts, this one will be focused on solutions which are less 'symptomatic' in nature.


The New Player Experience
While D514 is still in beta one key aspect of the game which needs testing (and polish) is the new player experience. The first impression, accessibility of the game and the implications of it's many choices.
Price adjusting, skill respecs, and many frustrated threads calling "nerf X" or "buff Y" are the children of Dusts steep learning curve. If a player entering the game were greeted by the information needed to make informed decisions than there is no longer any need for those decisions to ever be 'rolled back' because the implications of choice then fall fully upon the user.

This information needs to come in forms more interactive and engaging than our current wall of text popups. What gamer who's just downloaded a game the size of dust, and is excited to play it, takes the time to read and absorb so many walls of text? Experience says not very many, combine that with the diverse learning modality people possess and the new player experience is calling out for more videos, more voiced explanations and more PvE style hands on training scenarios, to fully balance out the VARK offerings of Dust.

Simply put lets make the game more accessible from the outset, first exposure to Dust should ideally give a player the following sensation easy to learn, difficult to master.


My ideas (and those that I've read) are far from the final word when it comes to how we reach that goal but I think it's a mark worth aiming for, and continuing to work on (and what better time to start than the beta?)

Some more detailed ideas are presented here
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=64043&find=unread

In addition to that, more directly related to skills I'd like to raise the concept of skill spikes and skill clusters. Now we don't know what these are or whether CCP has already conceptually defined their intended purpose. So my ideas following are theoretical, but lets try to focus on concepts rather than specific terminology.

Skill Clusters - EVE has a "remap" usable once every 12 months for free. This remap allows a player to focus the development of skill growth through specialization, gaining a bonus to gains within a specialty while taking penalties to growth in other areas. Introduce "skill clusters" in Dust to provide the same effect, as an example: A player picks up an Armor skill cluster from the market, plugs in that augmentation and now receives a discount on skills related to improving their ability to use and fit armor for the duration of the mod (other skills would during this time cost more to upgrade thus encouraging players to plan ahead while still allowing enhance flexibility for any player wishing to train into a new battlefield role).

Skill Spikes - The "try before you buy" augmentation. AUR gear already reduces the character skills required to run a given piece of gear but doesn't grant the full effect as the value of supporting skills remains absent.
Skill spikes would be the other side of this coin offering (temporarily and for a price) a single level increase in a given skill. This will not only allow players the chance to test out new fits and ideas (even after the live launch) but prevents abuse by limiting use to a timed single slot augmentation.

When combined with a full range of militia gear and stronger/more diverse full spectrum new player experience Dust can 'have it's cake and eat it too' keeping all choices lasting and their implications persistent while at the same time not shortchanging players who are either new to the game or trying something new with their Dust gaming.
[Note: Even if skill spikes and clusters are slated to be something else I would encourage CCP to consider the ideas above as possible game additions. Their possible value for helping new players and keeping the game fresh for vets shouldn't be undersold]

Rather than continue this tug of war over when/how/how much to "reinvent the wheel" with regards to Dust and skill point (re)allocation lets build on trends and features already within game in ways that accomplish a resolution for the same concerns that raised this topic in the first place.

Cheers,
Cross