Great post, especially that last part which I hadn't even considered. The time between builds can get quite lengthy and with all the limited content while in beta it's easy for players to lose interest that they may have moved on by the time the game releases.

Also, completely ignores all the extremely good points raised in the 'lengthy speech'.

There is a respec system in EvE but it certainly is nowhere near every week and you can't respec absolutely everything, which is what this thread suggests should happen. There is absolutely no advantage to CCP to have a weekly respec. Zero.

I'm not trying to be funny. None of this is funny. It's a bad idea and should not even be entertained by CCP.

And you are completely wrong about casual players being the main source of income to this game - that would be true of a boxed FPS but with free to play games casual players tend to put very little if any money into playing. It is the hardcore player-base that actually pays real money into F2P games.

Also, that post you've quoted was a one off from someone who didn't really contribute anything to the discussion - when us others refer to the closed beta, we are not reiterating that point. We are saying that the beta testing of all the gear was done previously and doesn't need to be done significantly more now, thus refuting the point that the OP makes by suggesting that he needs to personally test every single thing in the game.

This was a solid discussion, did you not read Cross' posts?

The problem with the feedback, diverse as you see it, as I will iterate again, will enact scenarios that on the grandscale would occur next to zilch in the finished game. These kinds of scenarios if tested through, will generate the feedback that I've been talking about, the feedback that misleads the developers.

It's like basing a monster defense system on the one time Godzilla has the Flu, the runs, and a hangover.

We must test the beta like the finished product would be played.

For the record it was not my intent to imply that mathematics/quantitative feedback was the only valid kind, nor that qualitative feedback holds no place in the sphere of beta testing. I offer my sincere apologies if I have given that impression.

Further as you mention in your post one of the best ways to aid testers/players in understanding how balanced things can be is to allow them to try out those things for themselves. While in my assessment respecs are not the correct way to go about this within D514 I do agree with and support the general concept stated.

It is my perception that a full array of militia variations (as they require no SP investment to employ) combined with a 'shooting range' (something easy to code that would let players get a feel for the effectiveness of various weapons on armor vs shields at an array of ranges) would open things up to providing players this same type of benefit without running afoul of the problems invoked by the respec method. (Even absent the shooting range, a full array of militia items would still offer these benefits albeit in a somewhat more restrictive manner)

On a closing note while I analyze points rather intently and am dogged in calling for details it is not my intent to be discourteous in my postings. I know however that sometimes I fail at conveying this and offer my apologies on this count if such has been the case here.

Cheers,
Cross

I'm glad we've reached a point of more common ground, and thank you for taking the time to participate in the discussion that led to it.

Regarding an EVE style "respec". The option in EVE is remap that when used goes on a 12 month cooldown timer. In essence you can remap once per year. The effects of this remap are not to alter any of the skills or SP you have currently invested but rather to provided a faster rate of gain within a selected specialized area at the cost of taking a slower rate of gain throughout the other areas available. The system would need some mechanic refitting to mesh with Dust but I see no reason the fundamental concept would not also be viable within D514. (As a side note regarding some of my prior points, if this method were slated to work within the live release the having it now during beta would trigger none of the potential problems I've mentioned in this thread).

Since rate of SP gain works differently within Dust perhaps the reworked version would discount the cost of skills within a specific sub-group allowing for more specialization while raising the cost on all skills outside of the selected group. A note worth keeping in mind, when I mention "specialization" it is more of a "weapons, armor, or equipment" question than a "Logi, Assault, or HAV" question.

My idea likely needs further refinement but would that adaptation be moving in the direction you're looking for?

Cheers,
Cross

Glad we've finally gotten this discussion to a sensible place and I feel I can throw my support behind the current direction.

But just to make absolutely clear to anyone new joining the thread - the OP idea of a weekly respec has been completely and utterly thrown out. There is no need to post any more about that suggestion. Please read Cross and Rinon's latest posts above to understand and contribute accordingly.

Thanks guys.

I'd vote "no" to any kind of respec/refund other than refund of SP used for skills that become obsolete due to changes to the game (i.e., a certain skill gets removed completely).

Reason being that you can effectively learn all the skills available, so in no way are you limited by your choices. Any type of respec would, even if only slightly, increase "FOTM" speccing.

Also, if a respec option becomes available, it won't be long before people ask for more respec options. I think CCP would be wise to stick to "your choices are final". Since, again, your choices in no way limit your future options, it is not possible to make an uncorrectable mistake.

FOTY, yes, that would work ;) No but seriously, what I mean by this is that any option to (partially) change your skill layout will in some way promote using that option to spec into whatever seems most OP. I admit that with what you propose the impact would be tiny.

But, that combined with the fact that I simply so no reason whatsoever to allow any kind of respec option leads to my opinion on this suggestion (and more broadly on any form of respec options): I'd rather not see it happening.

However yes, obviously it's up to CCP. I was just voicing my opinion on the matter.

And that doesn't make you think it was removed for a reason?

No reason tp help people too lazy to look up how the game works

And you wanna know what that changes into? People leaving ptw games

It isn't ptw but buying resets would make it ptw, they're suppose to be consequences for not planning ahead and this is one of them

/so whenever things change does it or does it not allow someone to change into the next unbalanced/buffed weapon?

I understand where you're coming from, and I admit that the type of respec you propose wouldn't be that much of an issue. I'd still prefer a hard line one respeccing just to play safe. I admit some people may have issues with the learning curve but I think that should be addressed through other means (tutorials, trial suits, etc).

I still believe that since any choice you make will never limit future choices, respecs are simply not required.

If you misplaced it that means you willingly put it there, so now you're just able to use the new FOTM rifle instead, which is a what ccp is trying to avoid which they have done so far

Why mot just have an option to respec for like 1M ISK

I like that idea. I suspect you'll rack up a few more likes for it too. Even some of the naysayers might admit they'd like to have a couple in the bank. Though they'd probably say 10 is too many. 5 maybe?

Skill resets are not needed and skill books can be kept forver and you can eventually learn that skill.

Reason: You have a bunch of Free BPC for all the base classes. Militia Gear is super cheap and requires no skills. I actually think the Militia gear and free BPCs are overpowered and game breaking. Oh hey, I get a free Car whenever I feel like ? Awesome. I can save up for a few rounds and then get like 6 basic tanks? Awesome.

If they remove the BPCs and Militia gear, then yes I would agree skill resets are needed.


[Edit]: And any skills that really are bad, can be balanced later. Thats why we are in Beta

Yea but most stuff you can try, you can run as a medic, assault, sniper, drive a tank, drive a car, get a plane, The only nonmilitia thing I saw was a heavy, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't really see what you are missing.

Respecs (the removal of already spent SP which is then placed back into the unallocated SP pool) aren't the proper solution, they're somewhat analogous to taking painkillers for a back or shoulder injury. You alleviate some of the symptoms at the front end while making the overall problems worse in the long run. For much of my analysis on that front see my earlier posts, this one will be focused on solutions which are less 'symptomatic' in nature.


The New Player Experience
While D514 is still in beta one key aspect of the game which needs testing (and polish) is the new player experience. The first impression, accessibility of the game and the implications of it's many choices.
Price adjusting, skill respecs, and many frustrated threads calling "nerf X" or "buff Y" are the children of Dusts steep learning curve. If a player entering the game were greeted by the information needed to make informed decisions than there is no longer any need for those decisions to ever be 'rolled back' because the implications of choice then fall fully upon the user.

This information needs to come in forms more interactive and engaging than our current wall of text popups. What gamer who's just downloaded a game the size of dust, and is excited to play it, takes the time to read and absorb so many walls of text? Experience says not very many, combine that with the diverse learning modality people possess and the new player experience is calling out for more videos, more voiced explanations and more PvE style hands on training scenarios, to fully balance out the VARK offerings of Dust.

Simply put lets make the game more accessible from the outset, first exposure to Dust should ideally give a player the following sensation easy to learn, difficult to master.


My ideas (and those that I've read) are far from the final word when it comes to how we reach that goal but I think it's a mark worth aiming for, and continuing to work on (and what better time to start than the beta?)

Some more detailed ideas are presented here
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=64043&find=unread

In addition to that, more directly related to skills I'd like to raise the concept of skill spikes and skill clusters. Now we don't know what these are or whether CCP has already conceptually defined their intended purpose. So my ideas following are theoretical, but lets try to focus on concepts rather than specific terminology.

Skill Clusters - EVE has a "remap" usable once every 12 months for free. This remap allows a player to focus the development of skill growth through specialization, gaining a bonus to gains within a specialty while taking penalties to growth in other areas. Introduce "skill clusters" in Dust to provide the same effect, as an example: A player picks up an Armor skill cluster from the market, plugs in that augmentation and now receives a discount on skills related to improving their ability to use and fit armor for the duration of the mod (other skills would during this time cost more to upgrade thus encouraging players to plan ahead while still allowing enhance flexibility for any player wishing to train into a new battlefield role).

Skill Spikes - The "try before you buy" augmentation. AUR gear already reduces the character skills required to run a given piece of gear but doesn't grant the full effect as the value of supporting skills remains absent.
Skill spikes would be the other side of this coin offering (temporarily and for a price) a single level increase in a given skill. This will not only allow players the chance to test out new fits and ideas (even after the live launch) but prevents abuse by limiting use to a timed single slot augmentation.

When combined with a full range of militia gear and stronger/more diverse full spectrum new player experience Dust can 'have it's cake and eat it too' keeping all choices lasting and their implications persistent while at the same time not shortchanging players who are either new to the game or trying something new with their Dust gaming.
[Note: Even if skill spikes and clusters are slated to be something else I would encourage CCP to consider the ideas above as possible game additions. Their possible value for helping new players and keeping the game fresh for vets shouldn't be undersold]

Rather than continue this tug of war over when/how/how much to "reinvent the wheel" with regards to Dust and skill point (re)allocation lets build on trends and features already within game in ways that accomplish a resolution for the same concerns that raised this topic in the first place.

Cheers,
Cross