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Kray Dytt
THE DOLLARS
20
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Posted - 2013.03.14 12:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'd vote "no" to any kind of respec/refund other than refund of SP used for skills that become obsolete due to changes to the game (i.e., a certain skill gets removed completely).
Reason being that you can effectively learn all the skills available, so in no way are you limited by your choices. Any type of respec would, even if only slightly, increase "FOTM" speccing.
Also, if a respec option becomes available, it won't be long before people ask for more respec options. I think CCP would be wise to stick to "your choices are final". Since, again, your choices in no way limit your future options, it is not possible to make an uncorrectable mistake.
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Kray Dytt
THE DOLLARS
21
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Posted - 2013.03.14 15:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
RINON114 wrote:Kray Dytt wrote:I'd vote "no" to any kind of respec/refund other than refund of SP used for skills that become obsolete due to changes to the game (i.e., a certain skill gets removed completely).
Reason being that you can effectively learn all the skills available, so in no way are you limited by your choices. Any type of respec would, even if only slightly, increase "FOTM" speccing.
Also, if a respec option becomes available, it won't be long before people ask for more respec options. I think CCP would be wise to stick to "your choices are final". Since, again, your choices in no way limit your future options, it is not possible to make an uncorrectable mistake.
I would agree with you if we hadn't already covered this several times. You can't have flavour of the month when the respec is yearly, do you propose a new acronym: FOTY? Let me re-iterate that this would be a limited respec of redundant or scarcely developed skills on a yearly basis. The skill you take points away from would either give diminishing returns or add a multiplier to the group which that skill belonged to. As for the comment about CCP yielding to "more respec options" then I have to ask on what basis did you found this claim? CCP are open to suggestions and will do what they feel is progress in the right direction. If they feel a respec option within such limited parameters is viable and a good fit for Dust then that is up to them, if not then so be it. The ability to shape the game is in our hands, take the opportunity instead of ignoring everything we have worked out in this thread and disagreeing with it.
FOTY, yes, that would work ;) No but seriously, what I mean by this is that any option to (partially) change your skill layout will in some way promote using that option to spec into whatever seems most OP. I admit that with what you propose the impact would be tiny.
But, that combined with the fact that I simply so no reason whatsoever to allow any kind of respec option leads to my opinion on this suggestion (and more broadly on any form of respec options): I'd rather not see it happening.
However yes, obviously it's up to CCP. I was just voicing my opinion on the matter. |
Kray Dytt
THE DOLLARS
24
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
RINON114 wrote:Kray Dytt wrote:RINON114 wrote:Kray Dytt wrote:I'd vote "no" to any kind of respec/refund other than refund of SP used for skills that become obsolete due to changes to the game (i.e., a certain skill gets removed completely).
Reason being that you can effectively learn all the skills available, so in no way are you limited by your choices. Any type of respec would, even if only slightly, increase "FOTM" speccing.
Also, if a respec option becomes available, it won't be long before people ask for more respec options. I think CCP would be wise to stick to "your choices are final". Since, again, your choices in no way limit your future options, it is not possible to make an uncorrectable mistake.
I would agree with you if we hadn't already covered this several times. You can't have flavour of the month when the respec is yearly, do you propose a new acronym: FOTY? Let me re-iterate that this would be a limited respec of redundant or scarcely developed skills on a yearly basis. The skill you take points away from would either give diminishing returns or add a multiplier to the group which that skill belonged to. As for the comment about CCP yielding to "more respec options" then I have to ask on what basis did you found this claim? CCP are open to suggestions and will do what they feel is progress in the right direction. If they feel a respec option within such limited parameters is viable and a good fit for Dust then that is up to them, if not then so be it. The ability to shape the game is in our hands, take the opportunity instead of ignoring everything we have worked out in this thread and disagreeing with it. FOTY, yes, that would work ;) No but seriously, what I mean by this is that any option to (partially) change your skill layout will in some way promote using that option to spec into whatever seems most OP. I admit that with what you propose the impact would be tiny. But, that combined with the fact that I simply so no reason whatsoever to allow any kind of respec option leads to my opinion on this suggestion (and more broadly on any form of respec options): I'd rather not see it happening. However yes, obviously it's up to CCP. I was just voicing my opinion on the matter. That's fair enough, but you can't just ignore the advantages for the type of respec we have worked out. The new/casual players need the ability to redo at least some of their choices due to the game's steep learning curve. Perhaps even one single reset in the lifetime of a character could help but this brings back some of the problems mentioned earlier. I could go on to say that I understand where you're coming from, that life doesn't give any second chances but this is a game. CCP's real world business depends on how well this game does. If they want it to do well then they need to adapt to a brand new market that is nothing like the EVE one, a fact which I hope they already know, and which few people take into account when discussing ideas like these.
I understand where you're coming from, and I admit that the type of respec you propose wouldn't be that much of an issue. I'd still prefer a hard line one respeccing just to play safe. I admit some people may have issues with the learning curve but I think that should be addressed through other means (tutorials, trial suits, etc).
I still believe that since any choice you make will never limit future choices, respecs are simply not required. |
Kray Dytt
THE DOLLARS
24
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Posted - 2013.03.18 10:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Soozu wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:No reason tp help people too lazy to look up how the game works Actually there is. DUST has been missing the tutorials that all games have these days, and ccp is aware of it. Most of the people coming in now have never played EVE. They are at a distinct disadvantage. Calling them "lazy" is in fact a suggestion you might not have given much thought to. One might call it a lazy point of view.
While it is true that tutorials and other "guidance" should be introduced to help new players, I don't think their absence is a reason to allow respeccing.
When you first start playing the game without having read anything about it out-of-game, you will choose your first character. Lets assume you pick a role you (think you) like.
Then, you spend the starter SP you've received. Now you could use them on completely useless skills... but if you take 2 minutes to glance over the skills you have and the skills that are available, you should be able to flesh out your starter build with it and not completely waste those points.
After that, you gain SP as you play. I would assume that through playing the game you get an understanding of what you like to do and which skills help you do it. You'll probably make mistakes, or decide that you want to go another route every now and again. But that is exactly why I'm against respecs of any kind. Training one or two skills that you end up not using in your basic build isn't really that much of a problem. Completed builds take millions of SP, so misplacing a say 100 000 is really not that bad and will teach you to think about what you do next time.
So, unless you've created a character and then parked the game for a few months, which means you'd have a massive amount of SP to spend all at once with no experience and/or knowledge of the game, you should learn as you go along. If you still make huge mistakes (i.e. misplace millions of SP) you are, in fact, being lazy (or not too bright).
Now of course, there will be players who don't care about finding out how stuff works, they just want to pewpew. That's fine, but I'm not sure this is the ideal game for that. If CCP does want to cater to that crowd as well, I'd propose "standard progression paths" that would pick their skills for them rather than respecs. |
Kray Dytt
THE DOLLARS
25
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Posted - 2013.03.18 12:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Soozu wrote:
I won't argue with any of that. I do however look at the issue from a different point of view. How to keep people interested.? Thus making this game a success. Allowing early stage respecs I would consider a huge incentive for those frustrated gamers [and from reading the forums it appears there are many] due to confusing menus [which I hear they're revamping] and lack of content, to stick around during the remainder of the BETA. A temporary game feature. How it might be implemented I know not. From the discussion, I gather it would upset most of the EVE crowd.
To put it another way. To offset the newb uphill climb, confusing menus and lack of content and tutorials... throw them a bone for a few months and let they play around with their SP. We might find that they're even better at the game than the standard blueberry once they find their niche.
I see where you're coming from and while I still think respecs are a bad idea in general, I would be willing to posit a temporary compromise and say anyone under 1 million SP can have unlimited respecs. Noobs would flit all over the place and there'd be shed-loads of FOTM going on at low levels but it wouldn't last long because even if you only count passive SP (without boosters), you hit 1 million SP within 21 days. If you're actually playing and hit your cap (with boosters) you'd get there in about a week. I think this would give beta noobs a chance to figure stuff out until there are tutorials/guides/more info or whatever else is brought in to make starting up easier.
But that's the thing... if a respec is only for small amount of SP (either not a full respec or only respec when below a total amount of SP) they aren't really needed because it doesn't take all that long to get that amount of SP again and this time put it where you want it. Have you then "lost" the misplaced SP? No, the skills are still there, you might even end up using them one day... We have militia gear to try out play styles we are not skilled for. To allow people to find their niche I think it would be better to focus on that approach. For instance, put up fully-fitted militia suits for specific roles and promote them to new players. This will allow people to try different things and see what they like in an easy way. |
Kray Dytt
THE DOLLARS
25
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Posted - 2013.03.18 13:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Soozu wrote:Kray Dytt wrote:Django Quik wrote:Soozu wrote:
I won't argue with any of that. I do however look at the issue from a different point of view. How to keep people interested.? Thus making this game a success. Allowing early stage respecs I would consider a huge incentive for those frustrated gamers [and from reading the forums it appears there are many] due to confusing menus [which I hear they're revamping] and lack of content, to stick around during the remainder of the BETA. A temporary game feature. How it might be implemented I know not. From the discussion, I gather it would upset most of the EVE crowd.
To put it another way. To offset the newb uphill climb, confusing menus and lack of content and tutorials... throw them a bone for a few months and let they play around with their SP. We might find that they're even better at the game than the standard blueberry once they find their niche.
I see where you're coming from and while I still think respecs are a bad idea in general, I would be willing to posit a temporary compromise and say anyone under 1 million SP can have unlimited respecs. Noobs would flit all over the place and there'd be shed-loads of FOTM going on at low levels but it wouldn't last long because even if you only count passive SP (without boosters), you hit 1 million SP within 21 days. If you're actually playing and hit your cap (with boosters) you'd get there in about a week. I think this would give beta noobs a chance to figure stuff out until there are tutorials/guides/more info or whatever else is brought in to make starting up easier. But that's the thing... if a respec is only for small amount of SP (either not a full respec or only respec when below a total amount of SP) they aren't really needed because it doesn't take all that long to get that amount of SP again and this time put it where you want it. Have you then "lost" the misplaced SP? No, the skills are still there, you might even end up using them one day... We have militia gear to try out play styles we are not skilled for. To allow people to find their niche I think it would be better to focus on that approach. For instance, put up fully-fitted militia suits for specific roles and promote them to new players. This will allow people to try different things and see what they like in an easy way. Not a bad suggestion. But that does take the fun out of playing around with it doesn't it? And preset freebie gear we have. But it gets stomped on. SPing properly into those fits while you test them out would help.
A 1 million SP build will get stomped on as well... maybe not so much as a militia suit, but it's far from a completed build at 1 mill SP...
There are ways around this though, maybe give every player a limited amount of "better" militia suits? Say 10 of each, performance around a standard suit + equipment?
Anyway, drifting off in details, but the bottom line is, I think, that any problem with people not knowing what to use/skill/etc. can be solved in other ways then by a respec, which doesn't really solve the issue but does cause other issues. |
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