as wolfman said, the performance hit and dev work involved wouldn't be worth it, we lead our shots out of instinct because that's what we've always done.

there are more important things to do right now but yes it would be nice to buy a skill book that improves the bullet speed... or buy ammunition that has variable speed.

I would love to have projectile physics, but I wouldn't want it at the expense of game performance.

Lol most games do not use instant hit and Planetside 2 does use bullet speed and is not warpy.

Budget costs... got to hate them.

What planetside 2 are you playing?

i agree with you regarding Snipers at the very least. No skill are required to actually butcher someone.
No matter how far or high you are, it's a point and click weapon.

Wow so they slowed the game down and have "instant hit mechanics" and people still complained about people strafing.

Well, I read that more as cost from a server calculation standpoint.

I've disagreed with you before, but I think we're on the same page now. The low strafe speed with instant hit is clearly an issue, which is why Wolfman made a thread saying that they're re-tweaking it. However, I think the need to lead your targets at medium to long range would really put a premium on the skill of the player.

Vote NO on projectile speeds. Many minds are stuck in the past - dealing with metal projectiles. This is a future where a weapon hits as fast as lightening - that is why you have dropsuits: to use the weapons and get hit by them.

Please stop trying to make this a familiar game - not all games need the same mechanics, same way to play, same way to do everything. LET THIS GAME BECOME whatever it is going to be. Cease warping it with unnecessary tools and developments.
plz

or rather than haveing every projectile in the game being monitored make it insta-hit and use a background damage adjusting program that makes it feel like projectile speeds are involved. - easily tied to the animations.

down vote for projectiles.
The game doesn't need it and I'd rather that processing power be left to handle something else.

Right, which is why I was excited to hear from Wolfman in an earlier discussion that the [Experimental] rifle is an indicator of the direction they're taking with all sniper weapons.

Imagine the calculations for 4000 projectiles in one second. If the whole team fielded burst hmg's and fired at once I think the servers would melt lol.

I think its fine how it is.

as wolfman said, the performance hit and dev work involved wouldn't be worth it, we lead our shots out of instinct because that's what we've always done.

there are more important things to do right now but yes it would be nice to buy a skill book that improves the bullet speed... or buy ammunition that has variable speed.

hit scan is just meh, snipe from 1 km away and insta hit. skillless.

My take is mobile dominated the convo.....I read more of what he wanted than what the devs plan to do

Hit scan is fine, I have no problem with it at all. Something like a railgun for example, do you know how fast they're supposed to travel? Regular projectiles are so fast that they can kill you before you even hear the sound of the shot firing, one would think that would only improve in the future.
Evading another player's aim on you is fine, but dodging bullets should not be possible.

Hit scan is fine, I have no problem with it at all. Something like a railgun for example, do you know how fast they're supposed to travel? Regular projectiles are so fast that they can kill you before you even hear the sound of the shot firing, one would think that would only improve in the future.
Evading another player's aim on you is fine, but dodging bullets should not be possible.

sounds to me like he's old school and invited here by old school fps players. old farts.

he asked all the right questions.

i bet he didnt buy his way in. he earned it.

Agreed, but no matter what speed the projectile flies at, you still have to lead a sufficiently distant target.

If "mobile" is me, then I was trying to keep up with a very busy chat, and thus made quite a few small posts instead of fewer, larger ones. I got in via MPT back in Replication. I bought a Merc Pack later to give the code to my friend.

The way I see it, projectile speed better emphasizes player skill, and allows for more variation between weapon types. For example:

Plasma < Bullet < Slug(Gauss) < Laser as far as speed is concerned.

I say that Plasma would be slowest because rather than accelerating a solid projectile that mostly keeps it's inertia over range, a Plasma weapon fires a ball of gas that has to travel through atmosphere of a similar mass, thus allowing it to be slowed far more easily over range. On the opposite end, you have a Laser weapon, which requires no target leading regardless of range, but only does it's full damage within a limited range, and only does that damage based on the time the beam is held on the target.

With those as either end of the spectrum, you can array the other weapons accordingly and make each one more unique and demanding of a particular skillset. If you wanted to get really crazy, when you have other planets introduced, you could take gravity into account with projectile weapons so that fighting on a smaller planet would allow you to have to compensate less for ballistic falloff. A railgun does indeed fire fast, but you're not going to beat gravity with a horizontal shot, and the projectile is still slower than the speed of light.

Hmm, I just think that would make the game too excessively complex and turn off a lot of potential first time players.

wow

How is having to lead your targets excessively complex, though? I hear so many complaints about low strafe speed and how it makes it too easy to just hold down the trigger and spray down people, but that isn't the whole issue. Even with strafe speed increased, with enough practice you can just jig the left stick back and forth and hit the trigger whenever the dot turns red.

It's not just leading your targets though. It's "Gun A will do this, but not that, even though it's similar to Gun B that does both this AND that. Gun C on the other hand is completely different, even though it's an Assault Rifle like both Gun A and Gun B." I dunno, maybe I'm over thinking it?

It's not just leading your targets though. It's "Gun A will do this, but not that, even though it's similar to Gun B that does both this AND that. Gun C on the other hand is completely different, even though it's an Assault Rifle like both Gun A and Gun B." I dunno, maybe I'm over thinking it?

you didnt read the other bits did you.

Seriously, was the "wow" good or bad?

you are kidding right?

1) It's referred to as "hit scan"

2) I would like to see them work on hit detection a bit more before they start adding hit-scan to weapons. Hit-scan typically works in games with small maps such as counter-strike where the bullet impact would be near-istantaneous anyways.

This could be used in DUST, but the maps are pretty large so adding hit-scan would take away from good snipers and AR users.

Ok, forget all the confusing BS. All I'm gonna say is that, at least for now, I'm against adding in any bullet traveling time or drop.

I'm confused now. You realize that hit-scan is basically what we have right now, right? Albeit server-side?

And that's what I get for not reading the OP. Take a lesson kids.

err. what? realism post coming up...

"Hey! so I just picked up this gun and I suck with it so my bullets are very slow..."
after some hours training with gun (or skill books)
"After using this gun allot I can now shoot the same gun faster.

that makes no sense... guns should have a static firing speed, damage and range. those are factors that can't changed with out modding of the weapon.

Oh no, that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that each weapon would have projectile behavior as a base, static characteristic. I wasn't trying to suggest that it should be variable based on skill training or anything else, not even weapon modifications.

who are you? tribes needs you :P

Oh no, that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that each weapon would have projectile behavior as a base, static characteristic. I wasn't trying to suggest that it should be variable based on skill training or anything else, not even weapon modifications.

oh sorry, I just kinda skimed your post and post's bellow. that's what I get I guess

after reading I agree.

Ah, gotcha.

still goons:P

americans that screwed over developers some time in the past............

Goons?

I think minimizing lag is most important especially with 3 skirmish maps tht lag to unplayable levels as soon as someone calls in a vehicle. However all the weapons with the exception of the sniper and smg feel like they are living up to their mythos. The sniper is supposed to be based off railgun tech which means up until the point of impact the bullet actually travels as a slug which encompasses some sort material tht can be ionized into plasma, so according to mythos snipers should have a bullet speed. Also the smg is a minmatar projectile weapon so it should have bullet speed as well although since it has terrible range I don't know if it would make it feel any different so keeping it as hit scan would probably be ideal since it'll reduce lag. Overall sniper yes bullet speed for sure, other weapons yes if it follows the mythos and more importantly if it can been dun and not create lag

americans that screwed over developers some time in the past............

Its always the Americans.

Its always the Americans.

Mobius my main point other than keep lag down was make weapons follow their mythos (honestly my fault tho, I didn't make the second part very clear). And personally they feel like they do follow the mythos with the exception of the sniper and smg.

Mobius Please elaborate cus ur last post confused me.

Heh, the vibe I'm getting from this thread is "Nerf sniper rifles by making it harder to aim." I suppose if ALL the weapons were given projectile travel time it'd be fine, but I hate projectile drop. No, just no.

what do you do as work for money? q+a i bet

I'm looking for another job at the moment, but no, I've never done QA.

if i was interviewing you and wolf id give you the job but sadly im only a janitor. gppd luck , im sure youll find something good somewhere. valve are good.

I'd prefer CCP if I could swing it.

I really can't wait till we start to see other race's weapons being integrated. I know I'm already going to be speccing into Scrambler Rifles as soon as those go in. I love testing new weapons.

[23:10] [CCP]Wolfman> ar, smg, hmg and pistol are instant hit

Wow, I never new that.
I've been instinctively trying to lead my targets the whole time I've been playing Dust.

Thanks for the post man.. (This explains a lot of my .. ah... gunplay coutcomes).

See, that's why I was surprised when he said that having to lead targets would cause confusion for players, when I keep running into people who are leading their targets and are confused as to why they aren't getting any hits.

i cant see it any other way from the top teir of ccp. think about it for a second. they are old and they work in the games industry. they played the best fps out there. they aint no pussies.

pie:P

these assholes that think they can make games havent done it yet. and when i play witht he controller and shudder at what they spent on that,

all i cant think is yes men. why the **** didnt someone stop them and say hey loook assholes your doing it wrong:P

I'd prefer that all of them get projectile attributes, or none of them

So, anyone else have any input to offer on this? Do you prefer the idea of just sniper weapons having projectile speed mechanics, or do you want a sandbox that has that as a characteristic of nearly all weapons?

the STFU gun it kills everyone but can only be obtain through salvage, one shot also,very rare to.

From a physics standpoint, doing it to only one weapon makes little sense. And doing it to the weapon with the highest velocity makes even less sense. Couple that with the technical issues, I think it should be left the way it is. The number of snipers will drop when we actually start taking on real contracts. Can't win with half of your team sniping.

why there are advantages to hit scan as therte are to projectiles, as there are disadvantages. there is no reason to not judge each on its own merits and decide.


is ps3 that weak? so no 128v 128 then?

No need for travel time, I worry enough for performance.


And I'm one of those people who say 'maybe for snipers'

No need for travel time, I worry enough for performance.


And I'm one of those people who say 'maybe for snipers'

And this is why I think this is turning into a 'nerf snipers' thread

Ok so nobody cares about the gun mythos? Everyone wants bullet speed on all weapons? Even lasers?

Ok so nobody cares about the gun mythos? Everyone wants bullet speed on all weapons? Even lasers?

Despite that not being my intention in starting this discussion, I think we can all agree that we've been on the wrong end of the current sniper mechanics more than once. I'm glad there's going to be a change not because I just want them to be nerfed so they can't hit me or something, but because I might try them out myself if I can use them with the mechanics I've grown used to over time.

Ok so u must misunderstand the mythos then. Let me give an example. The assault rifle is based off blaster tech from eve which means they fire ionized plasma energy not bullets energy travels at the speed of light.

Mobius plasma isn't gas and not even contained in a ball of gas. If u need an example of plasma look out ur window during a lighting storm and tell me tht doesn't travel at the speed of light.

You still need to lead your target because the game is so laggy.

This.

Everyone is claiming sniping is easy pie. I've been seeing shield flickers and no dmg notifications for weeks now. Sometimes you have to lead, sometimes you don't, sometimes rocks magically and invisibly grow in size.

This.

Everyone is claiming sniping is easy pie. I've been seeing shield flickers and no dmg notifications for weeks now. Sometimes you have to lead, sometimes you don't, sometimes rocks magically and invisibly grow in size.

Yeah, I've been nailed by em enough times, but I learned to take cover and serpentine when there is no cover.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning
I think you should read these, man.

Fixed it.

Best example I can think of is World Of Tanks and the artillery vs tanks. If you're smart, you can avoid them. If you're not too bright, they keep on earning a living.

Well, he's not wrong, it ISN'T gas (technically), it is it's own state of matter (Solid, Liquid, Gas, and Plasma.) However, it doesn't travel at the speed of light, in fact, it doesn't travel at all, Lighting is electricity (not light) turning the air around it into plasma for a very short duration before it cools again into gas. So you'd have to propel the plasma with some external force, for example, electromagnets (how do they work?.... sorry.) So the speed of the plasma, is entirely dependent on the method used to propel it. Plasma is very unstable however, so keeping it cohered together to do any real damage aside from a few burns is what makes plasma use as a weapon suck, in this case, the limiting factor is range. (EVE seems to have gotten this right.) And then there's the whole problem of keeping it in a plasma state, the obvious solution being to find a material that has a VERY low plasma point (the temperature at which it turns into plasma.)... Well, enough of that...

I get bored. When I get bored, I go on the internet. When I go on the internet, I look stuff up. When I look stuff up, I look up stuff about plasma. (Somehow... Yes, this is an actual chain of events of a day in my life...)

Well, the best I've got is my basic understanding of nuclear physics that I decided to learn because I live less than five miles from Three Mile Island.

The stupid thing shut itself off twice within one month, and I get to deal with this loveliness: Thursday, Nov. 1 - six separate tests beginning at 8 a.m. (three minutes each) - In the event of inclement weather these tests will occur on Friday, Nov. 2.

Thank you Noel. So now that Noel has explained plasma for us let me explain better the theory behind Eve's blasters and railguns (I call it a theory since eve isn't real but tries to stay relative to real things). First off railguns- a magnetic system propels a slug tht encases a substance with a high energy state (uranium, thorium, antimatter, etc.) At high speeds at the target, the slug is timed to ionize the inside material right before it hits the target (however the slugs shell starts to deteriorate from the inside once it leaves the gun due to lack of a sustained containment field, this causes damage falloff and Max range). Now blasters take the same shells as railguns but rather than just shooting the slug the blaster ionizes the inside material at the same time it magnetically launches the slug thus acheiving much faster speeds but limited range because the energy dissipates quickly.

Thank you Noel. So now that Noel has explained plasma for us let me explain better the theory behind Eve's blasters and railguns (I call it a theory since eve isn't real but tries to stay relative to real things). First off railguns- a magnetic system propels a slug tht encases a substance with a high energy state (uranium, thorium, antimatter, etc.) At high speeds at the target, the slug is timed to ionize the inside material right before it hits the target (however the slugs shell starts to deteriorate from the inside once it leaves the gun due to lack of a sustained containment field, this causes damage falloff and Max range). Now blasters take the same shells as railguns but rather than just shooting the slug the blaster ionizes the inside material at the same time it magnetically launches the slug thus acheiving much faster speeds but limited range because the energy dissipates quickly.

That makes enough sense... Programming it into Dust though... I dunno, I'm tired, I need sleep, you'll have to continue this w/o me. XP

We're there now. =)

Ha ha ha.
For quite possibly the hundredth time, the issues we have right now are related to a long-standing memory leak that they only managed to identify the source of in this build, same as CCP nothin finally found the sections of the ISK payout code that were going negative and causing the payouts to be so low. Both are already being worked on.

Heh, I know. I just like busting their balls about it. They also need to get rid of dust particles, make them static.

Back to the topic.

I think that conversation is a good example of why DUST514 is going to turn out average at best. *Not worth it*

He said that because they believe no one really wants it, so they have other things they can focus on. They aren't going to take a different direction on anything unless we show that we want and support it.

I actually have a problem using the current 'instant hit' mechanics. RL technology and logic is pretty drilled into me that you have to lead your targets. It's almost impossible for me to snipe without leading the target, It's just too weird.

Just saying when you have one player shoot a bullet you have to send that update to all other 24 players (server counts as 1) Server gets the update makes the clock turn in which it takes inventory of all the objects in play then do the math then send out the update to the other 24 players.

Now throw thousands of objects into play, each with their own hp bars, heading, xyz position, velocity, id numbers, item id numbers.

You get the point.

No he doesnt he never does hes a moron.

I was outside doing some yardwork, and another idea occured to me. Would it be possible to have a range variable at which point there was a hit delay?
To clarify: what if all weapons hit instantaneously within a specified range, but had a hard-timed hit delay beyond that point up until their range is exceeded. That way you can simulate a necessity to lead your targets at longer ranges without having to generate and calculate a physical projectile and it's vector.

Like this idea.

Your idea is a decent compromise, and would possibly bridge the gap between programming physics for every molecule of a weapons ammo once firedGǪ kind of thing and instant hits over all distances. Would it also be possible to program hit detection based on weapon type? That way you could launch with a simple and robust system and add more bells and whistles as the game evolves...

Also, if we assume that the programming is no obstacle and that this sort of thing can be done without a hit to performance, I am all for it. Though I don't think this is the case. A more intricate system would be more prone to failure.

But as long as we are running with the possibilities...

I would also be in favor of damage gradients for different hit zones on the target. It can get to be sort of ridiculous in an FPS to watch players shooting other players in the foot a few times to score kills.

There could be whiffs, graze shots, different suit types would have different vulnerable zones. Armor could take damage differently than shields. Some suits could have shields that concentrated defensive force in front of the merc (but were weaker to the sides and back) for a a charging into battle style of play. Some armor could negate headshots, but leave limbs vulnerable. Shots that hit armor plating might be deflected, but those that hit the soft material of the drop suit might cause more damage depending on the type of weapon used. No end to what you could do. All depends on what you're aiming for...

An m16 round travels at over 900meters per second. In dust with an AR, that bullet would reach its maximum distance (about 100m) in a single frame. Bullet travel isn't too much of a nessessity.

I'm not talking just about ARs, and the plasma fired from the current ARs doesn't suffer any form of bullet drop.

and why should it?Its not a piece of steel is it?

It really should be enforced on snipers. At the very least travel time, even if no bullet drop. The rest don't matter as much, bigger fish to fry.

REALLY? The round from the sniper rifle that we currently have available is firing a round at 2500 meters per second. That would equate to a speed of 5397.727272 miles and hour. I think that would equate to being a relatively instant hit at 150 - 500 meters. Hell that would equate to instant hit at 1500 meters.

Before you start complaining and making suggestions that are ludicrous in comparison to the presented statistics you should do some math and take a moment to put the final answer into perspective. It is a rail gun and it is pushing a round to hyper velocities.

Wow, I never new that.
I've been instinctively trying to lead my targets the whole time I've been playing Dust.

Thanks for the post man.. (This explains a lot of my .. ah... gunplay coutcomes).