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Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.24 13:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm going to trim out the unrelated portions.
[23:09] Mobius_Wyvern> On another note, do our weapons have different projectile speeds right now, or do they all travel at the same speed?
[23:09] Mobius_Wyvern> Like ARs, SMGs, HMGs, and pistols
[23:10] [CCP]Wolfman> ar, smg, hmg and pistol are instant hit
[23:13] Mobius_Wyvern> Are there any plans to change them from instant hit, though? I think projectile speed would be an important means of differentiating weapons, and might solve some of the complaints about strafe speed being the only way to avoid being shot, since you don't need to dance as much if the projectiles have travel speed.
[23:14] Mobius_Wyvern> Instant hits just lower the skill ceiling and make the shooting too easy
[23:14] Mobius_Wyvern> I've also been leading my targets for enough of my gaming experience that I tend to do so in Dust only to miss shots
[23:14] [CCP]Wolfman> No plans right now. It is a lot more expensive from a performance perspective to use actual projectiles and when yopu have thousands of them all at once from rapid fire weapons it doesn't work so well
[23:15] Mobius_Wyvern> Right, but you guys aren't going to be running Planetside 2 level player counts, right?
[23:15] [CCP]Wolfman> doesn't matter, most games use instant hit
[23:16] [CCP]Wolfman> there's a reason for that
[23:16] Mobius_Wyvern> I'm still not sure how SOE plans to support projectile calculation with 2000 players, because its teleporty as hell right now
[23:16] Mobius_Wyvern> Yeah, network performance
[23:17] Mobius_Wyvern> I guess what I'm saying is I have no problem believing that you guys have the expertise to pull it off, [CCP]Wolfman
[23:21] [CCP]Wolfman> I don't think it would add enough to the experience to be worth the cost of development. I think quite a lot of players would find it confusing that their bullets didnt always hit where they pointed
[23:22] Mobius_Wyvern> Why do you think players would find it confusing though?
[23:22] Mobius_Wyvern> Instant travel speeds didn't used to be the norm
[23:22] [CCP]Wolfman> becasue at rnage it would feel like hot detection wasn't working
[23:22] Mobius_Wyvern> Its been more common lately to support fancier stuff on the older console hardware we have, but you guys aren't talking about trying to support several hundred players
[23:23] [CCP]Wolfman> and for players used to virtually every other FPS game they are used to their shots going where they fire them
[23:23] [CCP]Wolfman> when they fire them
[23:24] Mobius_Wyvern> Well, [CCP]Wolfman, you also have to factor in that the ARs, for instance, have visible projectiles. With that visual feedback, players would quickly pick up on the change
[23:25] Mobius_Wyvern> I still think its stupid that the complaints about hit detection didn't make sense to me until Precursor
[23:25] Mobius_Wyvern> I never had trouble because I was leading my targets by instinct
[23:25] Mobius_Wyvern> *Codex
[23:25] Mobius_Wyvern> So my first day of Codex was awful
[23:25] Mobius_Wyvern> I never realized that our weapons were supposed to have instant shots by design
[23:26] Mobius_Wyvern> Part of the issue with sniper weapons right now is the instant travel time, or near instant at the very least
[23:26] Mobius_Wyvern> All the sniper has to do is wait for the dot to turn red and pull the trigger
[23:26] Mobius_Wyvern> I love that you said you were going to mix that up
[23:27] Mobius_Wyvern> I look forward to seeing what you introduce
[23:27] Mobius_Wyvern> But I think that would be a good direction to take to raise the skill ceiling on other weapons as well
What's your take on this, guys? If projectile speed could be factored in without causing latency problems, which system would you prefer?
Do you want people to be able to kill you by hitting the button when the dot turns red, or do you want to really add some skill requirement to shooting?
Btw, this is in no way attacking Wolfman or the work he does. I just want to see what you all think about this issue. |
Captain-Awesome
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
349
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Posted - 2012.10.24 13:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
as wolfman said, the performance hit and dev work involved wouldn't be worth it, we lead our shots out of instinct because that's what we've always done.
there are more important things to do right now but yes it would be nice to buy a skill book that improves the bullet speed... or buy ammunition that has variable speed. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.24 13:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Captain-Awesome wrote:as wolfman said, the performance hit and dev work involved wouldn't be worth it, we lead our shots out of instinct because that's what we've always done.
there are more important things to do right now but yes it would be nice to buy a skill book that improves the bullet speed... or buy ammunition that has variable speed.
I of course agree that that shouldn't be a priority right now when we have so many other things essential to gameplay to balance, but I would like to see a system with projectile speed factored in sometimes before we launch. I mean Telc was talking about lock-on Swarm Launchers being "pure faceroll", and while I don't agree with that, I think the term somewhat applies to only having to point and click no matter the range you're at.
There's no sense complaining about people "dancing" when that's the only means they have to avoid getting gunned down by someone just holding down the trigger when the little dot turns red. |
Kain Spero
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
898
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
I would love to have projectile physics, but I wouldn't want it at the expense of game performance. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:I would love to have projectile physics, but I wouldn't want it at the expense of game performance.
Neither would I. However, they already set up a system to factor in latency with server-side hit detection, something they did with little fanfare and that I'm not sure has been done before. I'm confident they could pull this off given the necessary time to work out all the mechanics. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2866
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Budget costs... got to hate them. |
Regis Mk V
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
109
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lol most games do not use instant hit and Planetside 2 does use bullet speed and is not warpy. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2866
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Regis Mk V wrote:Lol most games do not use instant hit and Planetside 2 does use bullet speed and is not warpy.
What planetside 2 are you playing? |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Budget costs... got to hate them.
Well, I read that more as cost from a server calculation standpoint. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Regis Mk V wrote:Lol most games do not use instant hit and Planetside 2 does use bullet speed and is not warpy. What planetside 2 are you playing?
Seriously, I've had fights where my target just zaps several feet to the left and then right in front of me. Trying to use client-side hit detection with a game that supports hundreds of players shooting all around the client doesn't seem like the best plan. |
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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
1155
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
i agree with you regarding Snipers at the very least. No skill are required to actually butcher someone.
No matter how far or high you are, it's a point and click weapon. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:i agree with you regarding Snipers at the very least. No skill are required to actually butcher someone.
No matter how far or high you are, it's a point and click weapon.
Right, which is why I was excited to hear from Wolfman in an earlier discussion that the [Experimental] rifle is an indicator of the direction they're taking with all sniper weapons. |
xjumpman23
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
262
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Wow so they slowed the game down and have "instant hit mechanics" and people still complained about people strafing. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.24 14:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
xjumpman23 wrote:Wow so they slowed the game down and have "instant hit mechanics" and people still complained about people strafing.
I've disagreed with you before, but I think we're on the same page now. The low strafe speed with instant hit is clearly an issue, which is why Wolfman made a thread saying that they're re-tweaking it. However, I think the need to lead your targets at medium to long range would really put a premium on the skill of the player. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
136
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Posted - 2012.10.24 15:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vote NO on projectile speeds. Many minds are stuck in the past - dealing with metal projectiles. This is a future where a weapon hits as fast as lightening - that is why you have dropsuits: to use the weapons and get hit by them.
Please stop trying to make this a familiar game - not all games need the same mechanics, same way to play, same way to do everything. LET THIS GAME BECOME whatever it is going to be. Cease warping it with unnecessary tools and developments.
plz
or rather than haveing every projectile in the game being monitored make it insta-hit and use a background damage adjusting program that makes it feel like projectile speeds are involved. - easily tied to the animations. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2866
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Budget costs... got to hate them. Well, I read that more as cost from a server calculation standpoint.
Just saying when you have one player shoot a bullet you have to send that update to all other 24 players (server counts as 1) Server gets the update makes the clock turn in which it takes inventory of all the objects in play then do the math then send out the update to the other 24 players.
Now throw thousands of objects into play, each with their own hp bars, heading, xyz position, velocity, id numbers, item id numbers.
You get the point. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1170
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
It really should be enforced on snipers. At the very least travel time, even if no bullet drop. The rest don't matter as much, bigger fish to fry. |
Lead Squall
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
54
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:xjumpman23 wrote:Wow so they slowed the game down and have "instant hit mechanics" and people still complained about people strafing. I've disagreed with you before, but I think we're on the same page now. The low strafe speed with instant hit is clearly an issue, which is why Wolfman made a thread saying that they're re-tweaking it. However, I think the need to lead your targets at medium to long range would really put a premium on the skill of the player.
I agree on hit detection for some weapons, but not on others. For instance, the sniper rifle is supposed to throw rounds at 2,500 m/s + . It would only take .1 seconds to hit a target at 250 meters. (current technology puts sniper bullets traveling at 800-1000 m/s - so about 3 times faster) That said, a scout sprinting at 8 m/s would move .8 meters in that time. Assuming he's running perpendicular to your line of fire that bullet should completely miss him. (off topic, the description describes the round in inches, but everything else is in metric. I would hope that the imperial system doesn't survive the inter galactic travel and this is coming from an American.) For the sniper, I believe that if they changed the mythos behind it and put a smaller round at a far higher speed, they can use hit detection.
lasers, on the other hand, move at 300,000,000 m/s. For the distances we are talking about, it's instantaneous and can rely on hit detection.
The AR is a different matter. It is throwing magnetic balls of plasma. While solar flares can throw plasma at up to 3,200,000 m/s, I doubt the AR is capable of those speeds (If it is capable of that, it should be far more powerful than it currently is). If it's throwing plasma at velocities similar to that as current sniper rifles (1000 m/s), at 100 meters, the projectile would take .1 second. We've already established that a sprinting player would be missed with out lead, assuming perpendicular travel, with that lag time.
unless all of the damage is coming from heat (and if that's the case, why are they so effective against armor? I thought armor was rather strong against thermal damage. The description also seems to indicate that the damage is almost completely thermal based) There is no way for the plasma to be traveling fast enough to be hit detection based. Though, the description does give an excellent reason for fall off, as past a certain distance, the magnetic field on the bolt will fail and heat will escape quickly.
Considering that this takes place far in the future, the game can warp physics a bit with it's mythos. It doesn't have to tell us why things happen, only that they do. But a well thought out why does wonders for immersion. With that, the mid to long range weapons can have projectiles that move fast enough to need only hit detection and don't lag. It can make sense, so long as they have the mythos to support it.
It would be nice to have travel time on some weapons for the sake of adding skill, but it does add significant processing load which may negatively affect game play. I'd say, if anything, put travel time on sniper rifles only (or change the mythos a bit for a faster round) as adding it to the assault rifle would truly put a burden on the servers. Adding only to snipers would adjust the "easy mode" that snipers are currently in and would not significantly add to processing, as there are far fewer sniper shots than assault rifle shots, and that numbemay be further reduced as people need to work harder for longer shots |
semperfi1999
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
317
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yea I agree that this needs some adjustments. It took me a while to figure out that this games hit registration was hitscan. And even though I know this now I still find myself instinctively trying to lead my target. It would be nice to have to actually lead the targets a bit. I can understand the laser being hitscan but every other weapon who have projectile speed. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
You still need to lead your target because the game is so laggy. |
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Villanor Aquarius
Shattered Ascension
79
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Posted - 2012.10.24 17:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
down vote for projectiles.
The game doesn't need it and I'd rather that processing power be left to handle something else. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.24 18:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:Vote NO on projectile speeds. Many minds are stuck in the past - dealing with metal projectiles. This is a future where a weapon hits as fast as lightening - that is why you have dropsuits: to use the weapons and get hit by them.
Please stop trying to make this a familiar game - not all games need the same mechanics, same way to play, same way to do everything. LET THIS GAME BECOME whatever it is going to be. Cease warping it with unnecessary tools and developments.
plz
or rather than haveing every projectile in the game being monitored make it insta-hit and use a background damage adjusting program that makes it feel like projectile speeds are involved. - easily tied to the animations.
It doesn't matter how fast you fire a projectile, as it will still travel slow enough to make the travel time have an effect on your shot. Only lasers should be able to completely escape that limitation.
Villanor Aquarius wrote:down vote for projectiles.
The game doesn't need it and I'd rather that processing power be left to handle something else.
I already said that this is all contingent on the ability to implement these changes without causing issues. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2012.10.24 18:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
I've always advocated bullet travel time for sniper rifles, but for other light weapons I would agree with the CCP guy that it's not such a big deal and, if he says that they believe it'd cause performance problems, then I'd say they know best and that it wouldn't be a worthy trade-off.
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Right, which is why I was excited to hear from Wolfman in an earlier discussion that the [Experimental] rifle is an indicator of the direction they're taking with all sniper weapons.
Could you elaborate on this? |
Villore Isu
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
115
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Posted - 2012.10.24 18:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
As far as I'm concerned, there are so many other things that the devs could do in the amount of time it would take to get a projectile system to work, things that would add much more to the game as well.
So ultimately, while it would be nice to have at some point for some weapons (namely sniper rifles) it would be better for the devs to spend there time on other things.
Also if it bothers you so much, just pretend that future scopes automatically adjust for target movement, bullet drop etc.
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Noel Bellamy
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
36
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Posted - 2012.10.24 18:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Meh, there are bigger problems, and I don't understand why so many people are saying 'yes for sniper rifles, no for everything else'. I mean, it's bad enough that 1/2 the time the shots don't even register, so to make the projectile take longer to reach it's target (which doesn't make any sense, since traditionally, sniper rifles have the highest projectile velocity of any small arms) would be just plain unfair to snipers. So either add it to all of them or add it to none of them. And if you're getting hit by snipers, bob and weave! |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
421
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Posted - 2012.10.24 18:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hitscan weaponry has been around for as long as it has for a reason. If you just have to do an effect and register a binary hit/miss, its alot easier on the game than rendering a bullet, it's trajectory, and where it hits at what speed, etc. We should be glad they have distances and falloff.
If bullets become objects that have to be rendered, HMGs, ARs, and SMGs will become unusable lag machines. There is a reason why most games that use 'realistic' bullet physics have it only effect a single weapon (the player character's sniper rifle in Sniper Elite or Sniper: Ghost Warrior) or it is the focus of the game, and there isn't actual combat (Cabella hunting games), and they are always single shot, low refire weapons. It's WAY too much of a strain to do that for every bleeding shot. |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
414
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Posted - 2012.10.24 18:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
I think it depends on weapon, and is less important then game performance. So if there are not enough resources to do it save it for expansion in few years.
- Laser should be hitscan.
- cqc weapons it would probably make no difference, so hit scan for shotgun, pistol(laser also), and smg.
- Caldari sniper rifle fires 3.5km a second, bullet drop would be irrelevant at that speed, but travel time at 500m shot is 1/5 second
- Minmatar Sniper should act like the experimental sniper with travel and an arc. Balance with caldari sniper could be the caldari has more sway to it.
- I haven't used the hmg enough to know if the range is long enough to notice arc/travel time. edit: rof should be enough to warrant hit scan, that many arc would be silly use on server resources.
- assault rifles could have travel time added, arc isn't needed. Plasma is more affected by the planets magnetic field then gravity, so if made realistic it would act strange, travel time should be enough.
- A minmatar projectile assault rifle should have travel time, maybe fake bullet drop by firing 1-2 degrees down from sight. Could even be straight for say 50m then turns few degrees down and continues straight. If resources are available it should be an arc. They could also be low rate of fire to save resources, highest like the breach ar and Minmatar breach could be 180 rounds/minute.
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Ghost-33
ShootBreakStab
108
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Posted - 2012.10.24 18:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Imagine the calculations for 4000 projectiles in one second. If the whole team fielded burst hmg's and fired at once I think the servers would melt lol.
I think its fine how it is. |
Noel Bellamy
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
36
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Posted - 2012.10.24 19:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ghost-33 wrote:Imagine the calculations for 4000 projectiles in one second. If the whole team fielded burst hmg's and fired at once I think the servers would melt lol.
I think its fine how it is.
Now I want them to do it just so I can melt their servers... |
Lonewolf514
79
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Posted - 2012.10.24 19:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
"23:21] [CCP]Wolfman> I don't think it would add enough to the experience to be worth the cost of development. I think quite a lot of players would find it confusing that their bullets didnt always hit where they pointed"
Says it all really, this is the state that game development has got into. Years ago people made games because they wanted to with a passion, they risked everything on it, their houses, Everything. Now all we have are people who went into it as a carreer path, clock in clock out. It'll do attitude instead of lets make it better. I dont mean that personally just generally at the whole lot, the whole business. This is why i hate unreal engine with a passion and can count on 1 hand how many good mutliplayer games that have been made on it. It doesnt make developers just modders that cba.
btw it didn't take long for hi rez to change things like the laser rifle (sniper rifle) when they wanted to so saying it adds development cost (at least on a massive scale) i don't buy it. |
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