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Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 04:14:00 -
[121] - Quote
Sarra Jardox wrote:Mobius plasma isn't gas and not even contained in a ball of gas. If u need an example of plasma look out ur window during a lighting storm and tell me tht doesn't travel at the speed of light. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_physics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning I think you should read these, man.
Fixed it. |
Christ0pher Blair
Deep Space Republic
34
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 04:23:00 -
[122] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:You still need to lead your target because the game is so laggy.
This.
Everyone is claiming sniping is easy pie. I've been seeing shield flickers and no dmg notifications for weeks now. Sometimes you have to lead, sometimes you don't, sometimes rocks magically and invisibly grow in size. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 04:26:00 -
[123] - Quote
Christ0pher Blair wrote:Tony Calif wrote:You still need to lead your target because the game is so laggy. This. Everyone is claiming sniping is easy pie. I've been seeing shield flickers and no dmg notifications for weeks now. Sometimes you have to lead, sometimes you don't, sometimes rocks magically and invisibly grow in size.
That's not travel time or bullet drop, just hit detection and terrain bugs which should get fixed. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.25 04:26:00 -
[124] - Quote
Christ0pher Blair wrote:Tony Calif wrote:You still need to lead your target because the game is so laggy. This. Everyone is claiming sniping is easy pie. I've been seeing shield flickers and no dmg notifications for weeks now. Sometimes you have to lead, sometimes you don't, sometimes rocks magically and invisibly grow in size. True, but that's largely due to the already identified memory leaks in the airborne dust textures of this build, and the way they interact with the wind. CCP CmdrWang was just in IRC a few minutes ago, and confirmed that the sole focus of the next build is performance enhancements and fixes to long-standing issues. |
Christ0pher Blair
Deep Space Republic
34
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Posted - 2012.10.25 04:27:00 -
[125] - Quote
Noel Bellamy wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Noel Bellamy wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:No need for travel time, I worry enough for performance.
And I'm one of those people who say 'maybe for snipers'
And this is why I think this is turning into a 'nerf snipers' thread Despite that not being my intention in starting this discussion, I think we can all agree that we've been on the wrong end of the current sniper mechanics more than once. I'm glad there's going to be a change not because I just want them to be nerfed so they can't hit me or something, but because I might try them out myself if I can use them with the mechanics I've grown used to over time. Yeah, I've been nailed by em enough times, but I learned to take cover and serpentine when there is no cover.
Best example I can think of is World Of Tanks and the artillery vs tanks. If you're smart, you can avoid them. If you're not too bright, they keep on earning a living. |
Noel Bellamy
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
36
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Posted - 2012.10.25 04:35:00 -
[126] - Quote
Well, he's not wrong, it ISN'T gas (technically), it is it's own state of matter (Solid, Liquid, Gas, and Plasma.) However, it doesn't travel at the speed of light, in fact, it doesn't travel at all, Lighting is electricity (not light) turning the air around it into plasma for a very short duration before it cools again into gas. So you'd have to propel the plasma with some external force, for example, electromagnets (how do they work?.... sorry.) So the speed of the plasma, is entirely dependent on the method used to propel it. Plasma is very unstable however, so keeping it cohered together to do any real damage aside from a few burns is what makes plasma use as a weapon suck, in this case, the limiting factor is range. (EVE seems to have gotten this right.) And then there's the whole problem of keeping it in a plasma state, the obvious solution being to find a material that has a VERY low plasma point (the temperature at which it turns into plasma.)... Well, enough of that... |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.25 04:43:00 -
[127] - Quote
Christ0pher Blair wrote:Noel Bellamy wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Noel Bellamy wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:No need for travel time, I worry enough for performance.
And I'm one of those people who say 'maybe for snipers'
And this is why I think this is turning into a 'nerf snipers' thread Despite that not being my intention in starting this discussion, I think we can all agree that we've been on the wrong end of the current sniper mechanics more than once. I'm glad there's going to be a change not because I just want them to be nerfed so they can't hit me or something, but because I might try them out myself if I can use them with the mechanics I've grown used to over time. Yeah, I've been nailed by em enough times, but I learned to take cover and serpentine when there is no cover. Best example I can think of is World Of Tanks and the artillery vs tanks. If you're smart, you can avoid them. If you're not too bright, they keep on earning a living. Exactly, and the same should be possible with sniper weapons in Dust unless they're using lasers. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.25 04:44:00 -
[128] - Quote
Noel Bellamy wrote:Well, he's not wrong, it ISN'T gas (technically), it is it's own state of matter (Solid, Liquid, Gas, and Plasma.) However, it doesn't travel at the speed of light, in fact, it doesn't travel at all, Lighting is electricity (not light) turning the air around it into plasma for a very short duration before it cools again into gas. So you'd have to propel the plasma with some external force, for example, electromagnets (how do they work?.... sorry.) So the speed of the plasma, is entirely dependent on the method used to propel it. Plasma is very unstable however, so keeping it cohered together to do any real damage aside from a few burns is what makes plasma use as a weapon suck, in this case, the limiting factor is range. (EVE seems to have gotten this right.) And then there's the whole problem of keeping it in a plasma state, the obvious solution being to find a material that has a VERY low plasma point (the temperature at which it turns into plasma.)... Well, enough of that... Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. Good explanation. |
Noel Bellamy
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
36
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 04:46:00 -
[129] - Quote
I get bored. When I get bored, I go on the internet. When I go on the internet, I look stuff up. When I look stuff up, I look up stuff about plasma. (Somehow... Yes, this is an actual chain of events of a day in my life...) |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.25 05:02:00 -
[130] - Quote
Noel Bellamy wrote:I get bored. When I get bored, I go on the internet. When I go on the internet, I look stuff up. When I look stuff up, I look up stuff about plasma. (Somehow... Yes, this is an actual chain of events of a day in my life...) Sometimes, I ride shotgun with my father when we run errands, and we talk about nuclear physics. Trust me, you don't seem weird at all (my father was US Navy Nuclear Power for 24 years). |
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Noel Bellamy
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
36
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Posted - 2012.10.25 05:05:00 -
[131] - Quote
Well, the best I've got is my basic understanding of nuclear physics that I decided to learn because I live less than five miles from Three Mile Island. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.25 05:07:00 -
[132] - Quote
Noel Bellamy wrote:Well, the best I've got is my basic understanding of nuclear physics that I decided to learn because I live less than five miles from Three Mile Island. Yikes. |
Noel Bellamy
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
36
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 05:09:00 -
[133] - Quote
The stupid thing shut itself off twice within one month, and I get to deal with this loveliness: Thursday, Nov. 1 - six separate tests beginning at 8 a.m. (three minutes each) - In the event of inclement weather these tests will occur on Friday, Nov. 2. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 05:12:00 -
[134] - Quote
Noel Bellamy wrote:The stupid thing shut itself off twice within one month, and I get to deal with this loveliness: Thursday, Nov. 1 - six separate tests beginning at 8 a.m. (three minutes each) - In the event of inclement weather these tests will occur on Friday, Nov. 2. ACK. |
Sarra Jardox
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2012.10.25 05:17:00 -
[135] - Quote
Thank you Noel. So now that Noel has explained plasma for us let me explain better the theory behind Eve's blasters and railguns (I call it a theory since eve isn't real but tries to stay relative to real things). First off railguns- a magnetic system propels a slug tht encases a substance with a high energy state (uranium, thorium, antimatter, etc.) At high speeds at the target, the slug is timed to ionize the inside material right before it hits the target (however the slugs shell starts to deteriorate from the inside once it leaves the gun due to lack of a sustained containment field, this causes damage falloff and Max range). Now blasters take the same shells as railguns but rather than just shooting the slug the blaster ionizes the inside material at the same time it magnetically launches the slug thus acheiving much faster speeds but limited range because the energy dissipates quickly. |
Noel Bellamy
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
36
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 05:20:00 -
[136] - Quote
Sarra Jardox wrote:Thank you Noel. So now that Noel has explained plasma for us let me explain better the theory behind Eve's blasters and railguns (I call it a theory since eve isn't real but tries to stay relative to real things). First off railguns- a magnetic system propels a slug tht encases a substance with a high energy state (uranium, thorium, antimatter, etc.) At high speeds at the target, the slug is timed to ionize the inside material right before it hits the target (however the slugs shell starts to deteriorate from the inside once it leaves the gun due to lack of a sustained containment field, this causes damage falloff and Max range). Now blasters take the same shells as railguns but rather than just shooting the slug the blaster ionizes the inside material at the same time it magnetically launches the slug thus acheiving much faster speeds but limited range because the energy dissipates quickly. I thought it just ionized the particles and just fired the particles themselves w/o the casing for blasters? At least that's how I interpreted it, but the two concepts are pretty close, only the difference in whether they fire it in the casing or not. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 05:20:00 -
[137] - Quote
Sarra Jardox wrote:Thank you Noel. So now that Noel has explained plasma for us let me explain better the theory behind Eve's blasters and railguns (I call it a theory since eve isn't real but tries to stay relative to real things). First off railguns- a magnetic system propels a slug tht encases a substance with a high energy state (uranium, thorium, antimatter, etc.) At high speeds at the target, the slug is timed to ionize the inside material right before it hits the target (however the slugs shell starts to deteriorate from the inside once it leaves the gun due to lack of a sustained containment field, this causes damage falloff and Max range). Now blasters take the same shells as railguns but rather than just shooting the slug the blaster ionizes the inside material at the same time it magnetically launches the slug thus acheiving much faster speeds but limited range because the energy dissipates quickly. Right, and they operate that way thanks to the vaccum of space, though that also helps to limit their range. Now, in our context, that plasma has to move through a medium of gas of similar mass to itself with only the initial magnetic push to propel it. In keeping with that, the ball of plasma would move at extremely high speeds up close, but would lose speed very rapidly over distance. |
Noel Bellamy
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
36
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 05:24:00 -
[138] - Quote
That makes enough sense... Programming it into Dust though... I dunno, I'm tired, I need sleep, you'll have to continue this w/o me. XP |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 05:26:00 -
[139] - Quote
Noel Bellamy wrote:That makes enough sense... Programming it into Dust though... I dunno, I'm tired, I need sleep, you'll have to continue this w/o me. XP Not a problem. Sleep well, man.
Anyone else have any other thoughts on the matter? |
Sarra Jardox
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 06:15:00 -
[140] - Quote
I think Noel is right this would be way to complicated to code. But hypothetically if u wanted to literally take into account real world physics then the rate of speed decrease would have to be relative to the rate of damage decrease both would obviously have to equal out to the total therorized energy decrease. So all in all I think its a bad system, it seems like fuel for the dancing around bullets debate. Ull have those arguing damage rate is to high and that they can hardly kill anyone at medium ranges then on the flip side ull have those arguing speed rate is too high tht ppl are dancing around shots at medium ranges. Its a recipe for disaster. |
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Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
164
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 11:20:00 -
[141] - Quote
I may have missed it in an earlier post. But has anyone considered that with several hundred planets, with dozens of potential combat districts each, and all the resources we players will be able to throw on all those fields simultaneously, that adding millions of rapid fire small arms rendered physics projectiles (up to 3000 rnds per minute for one HMG) in a very very short amount of time, would have a very good chance of putting a game breaking lag on the whole server system?
Do you know what coding is required for rendering, tracking, and physics checking a single bullet every 1/1000 of a second?
It might be fine if you limit the game to 4v4 or 6v6 on tiny maps, but on the scale Dust is going to run at, realistic physics on all weapons would most likely kill playability within the first minute or two of a battle. |
Noel Bellamy
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
36
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 13:43:00 -
[142] - Quote
Yes, the whole performance issue has been brought up, so the discussion is based on a hypothetical basis of it being possible. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.25 16:05:00 -
[143] - Quote
Its also important to keep in mind that rather than dealing with "grids" of battling spaceships that can be expanded over thousands of kilometers which, even though its just empty space, means there's a lot or rendering and calculation going on when all the shots start flying and the wrecks start popping up, we're going to be on smaller, instanced battlefields. |
Christ0pher Blair
Deep Space Republic
34
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 16:55:00 -
[144] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: would have a very good chance of putting a game breaking lag on the whole server system?
We're there now. =)
*shortened the quote to make the part easier to see. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 16:57:00 -
[145] - Quote
Christ0pher Blair wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I may have missed it in an earlier post. But has anyone considered that with several hundred planets, with dozens of potential combat districts each, and all the resources we players will be able to throw on all those fields simultaneously, that adding millions of rapid fire small arms rendered physics projectiles (up to 3000 rnds per minute for one HMG) in a very very short amount of time, would have a very good chance of putting a game breaking lag on the whole server system?
Do you know what coding is required for rendering, tracking, and physics checking a single bullet every 1/1000 of a second?
It might be fine if you limit the game to 4v4 or 6v6 on tiny maps, but on the scale Dust is going to run at, realistic physics on all weapons would most likely kill playability within the first minute or two of a battle. We're there now. =) Ha ha ha. For quite possibly the hundredth time, the issues we have right now are related to a long-standing memory leak that they only managed to identify the source of in this build, same as CCP nothin finally found the sections of the ISK payout code that were going negative and causing the payouts to be so low. Both are already being worked on. |
Christ0pher Blair
Deep Space Republic
34
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 17:01:00 -
[146] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Christ0pher Blair wrote: We're there now. =)
Ha ha ha. For quite possibly the hundredth time, the issues we have right now are related to a long-standing memory leak that they only managed to identify the source of in this build, same as CCP nothin finally found the sections of the ISK payout code that were going negative and causing the payouts to be so low. Both are already being worked on.
Heh, I know. I just like busting their balls about it. They also need to get rid of dust particles, make them static.
Back to the topic. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 17:14:00 -
[147] - Quote
Christ0pher Blair wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Christ0pher Blair wrote: We're there now. =)
Ha ha ha. For quite possibly the hundredth time, the issues we have right now are related to a long-standing memory leak that they only managed to identify the source of in this build, same as CCP nothin finally found the sections of the ISK payout code that were going negative and causing the payouts to be so low. Both are already being worked on. Heh, I know. I just like busting their balls about it. They also need to get rid of dust particles, make them static. Back to the topic. Right. As I said earlier, and something that seems not to have been clarified enough, I'm not trying to suggest that we have guns like Tribes that fire bullets slower than I can throw a softball. At close to medium range, the lag between firing and hitting your target would be negligible, as it should be. However, the "pocket sniper" comment about the Tactical rifle comes from its ability to rapidly gun down anyone even at the maximum extent of its range with no lag between shot and hit. With even the highest of projectile speeds, you would still need to lead your target ever-so-slightly, and that small amount would make fire-fights far more fun at range as opposed to being "whoever shoots first wins" like some of our community have been complaining that the current strafe mechanics have turned such combat into. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 22:10:00 -
[148] - Quote
I was outside doing some yardwork, and another idea occured to me. Would it be possible to have a range variable at which point there was a hit delay? To clarify: what if all weapons hit instantaneously within a specified range, but had a hard-timed hit delay beyond that point up until their range is exceeded. That way you can simulate a necessity to lead your targets at longer ranges without having to generate and calculate a physical projectile and it's vector. |
Mosley Harmless
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2012.10.26 01:19:00 -
[149] - Quote
I think that conversation is a good example of why DUST514 is going to turn out average at best. *Not worth it* |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.10.26 01:30:00 -
[150] - Quote
Mosley Harmless wrote:I think that conversation is a good example of why DUST514 is going to turn out average at best. *Not worth it* He said that because they believe no one really wants it, so they have other things they can focus on. They aren't going to take a different direction on anything unless we show that we want and support it. |
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