This thread stopped being constructive once he got in here.

As always, I have the same mindset as True in this one.

I don't want passive armor regen. I really don't want it to be a thing. How armor repairs worked back in the day was damn near perfect even though they were supposedly messed up.

If they did want to instate passive regen make it a low costive module with low values and then have a main active armor repair.

But at this point I don't even feel like it's worth it to bring all that up or the numbers. What CCP is making vehicles into is far too gone from what original players liked about tanking in CCPs first vision.

Well back on topic, my general feel on the Madrugar.

i wont get into the nitty gritty with the numbers, as I've made it pretty clear my thoughts on regen, hardeners, and the sort...so I'll focus on general fitting concepts.

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I really like how this is shaping up. I can fit a full rack of the utility mods I'd want to have on a Madrugar (Damage Mod, Scanner, and Nitro) while maintaining a full lineup of defenses (typically Hardener and 2 Plate + Repper or 1 Plate + 2 reppers). It's not the tankiest thing in the world...the Amarrian HAV will trump it easily with another low, but for a UtiliTank, it's looking really good.

At standard level I like that I can fit the above fit with all Standard modules. It's a very tight fit but it's doable. At proto, you can't fit full main-rack defenses (typically you have to drop the 2 plates from Proto to Advanced to get the PG to fit) if you want a proto turret. Dropping the turret down a notch frees up a good chuck of resources, but even if all the utility modules are fixed at Standard, you can't upgrade those plates to Complex without exceeding the PG limit, so you would really only downgrade the turret if you wanted a better Nitro (Downgrading the turret to upgrade the damage mod is a poor choice, as the damage difference between turrets is +10% but the higher tiered damage mod only nets +5% additional.)

As for the numbers, I'll at least look at a comparison between the typical old Maddy (which was way underpowered).

The New Maddy will:

• Be slightly slower due to a second plate, but offset by addition of Nitro module.
• Have slightly higher eHP if Enhanced or Complex turret is used. Basic turrets will allow for a little more HP.
• More DPS output overall due to better turrets and a damage mod.
• Have enough CPU to run a really nice scanner on many fits which will help a lot in spotting threats in close quarters.
• Rep faster with the 30HP/s base armor repair rate
• Regenerate shields ~30% slower

Overall fitting the Madrugar feels more enjoyable and more like it should be. It's an armor tank with good potential for utility and will be a very flexible. Aside from some minor tweaks here and there, it's looking really good. Note that I still think Hardeners and regen modules need to be looked at though, but that's for another thread.

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Any chance we can get the Protofit Bros to put your Vehicle Shield Regulators in there? I feel like I cant properly review the Gunnlogi until I can see them in there.

1) I haven't had this problem

2) Rattati hasn't released ISK costs yet.

3) if you leave the MBT turrets as standard every other thing they can fit is identical. I've been testing this. MBTs don't get extra fitting by cheaping out on turrets. If you can fit it on an SHAV you can fit it on an MBT, you just can't necessarily upgrade the smalls.

4) also not yet released.

1) Oh, you haven't? Well, that's good, glad your experience matters more than the painfully obvious math behind a Tank having 50db Profile and a Commando having 55db Precision.

2) You don't say? Couldn't have had anything to do with why I asked what they were looking like.

3) Wrong. With all skills level five you get significantly more PG/CPU by fitting standard turrets just because of the reduced fitting costs on the small turrets.

4) Also why I asked.

Well let me lay out a general sense of what I would like to see overall given some of the design points Rattati has laid out

• Shields Recharge Slowly, but naturally with recharge delay
• Armor Recharge even slower (not a huge fan of this but Rattati seems set on on it)
• Shield Recharge on Armor HAVs should be equally as low as armor repair on Shield HAVs
• Shield Boosters Boost for 5 seconds, High HP/s (Primary means of HP regeneration for most fits)
• Armor Repairers Repair for 15 seconds, Moderate HP/s (Primary means of HP regeneration for most fits)
• Shield Hardeners 40%, slightly better duration/cooldown than current
• Armor Hardeners 30%, same duration/cooldown as current
• Shield Rechargers, increase Natural shield recharge (High Slot)
• Shield Regulators, decrease shield recharge delay (Low Slot)
• Stable Armor Repairer, Low armor HP/s, constant recharge

EDIT: And honestly the point I was trying to get across is that many elements pre 1.7 behaved more like EVE than they do now, a time in Dust's history that many vehicle pilots often references as being a better system.

This is basically it as you describe.

Active = High volume
Passive = Low volume

players should be progressing towards active as it rewards skill, but passive is easier to cope with as a new pilot.

Shouldn't be forced to fit armor reps to be able to recuperate, so native reps, very low.

An offensive action, should be countered with another action (hardening, boosting, active repping) and that in turn should be countered by maneuevering into the back (fuel injector or weak spot), or active dmg modding.

This is basically it as you describe.

Active = High volume
Passive = Low volume

players should be progressing towards active as it rewards skill, but passive is easier to cope with as a new pilot.

Shouldn't be forced to fit armor reps to be able to recuperate, so native reps, very low.

An offensive action, should be countered with another action (hardening, boosting, active repping) and that in turn should be countered by maneuevering into the back (fuel injector or weak spot), or active dmg modding.

Oh I found out you can't interrupt shield boosters. they only get one pulse for the listed amount.

if you take damage, it just eats part (or all) of that benefit entirely.

so instead of 5 pulses that result in say 1950 HP repped to shields it just does it all at once, rather than spacing it out over 10-15 seconds.

So I dunno what people are thinking whern you say you can "interrupt" the regen.

Its because when you take hits while you've activated the booster, the booster cuts out. This usually happens under blaster fire, when the shields are under continous damage.

You wouldn't notice it as AV infantry attacking with a forge or swarms, as that break inbetween shots is long enough for the entire pulse to go off and raise shields. Its one of those tank v tank nuances.

Easy enough for anyone to verify, take a base sica that comes with a default shield booster, and get a red blaster instalation to shot at you. You can't boost through incoming damage.

you sure it's just not eating the booster damage?I mean if you're eating fire it's not going to top you off while ignoring the incoming and then retroactively apply the damage. If you're running a booster and during that second you eat 7 proto blaster shots, that's well over 700 damage. Which comes right off the top of the regained HP.So yeah it's going to appear to "interrupt"

now if you're running a complex heavy booster for 1950 and you take the 800 ish damage but you only rep 300 in that time then yeah I can see a problem.

This is both directed towards rattati and Pokey, where do the Assault dropships fit into this? Are they going to have the same modifications as tanks, in regards to shield/armor reps?

Could we see dropships being given the same treatment as tanks? the ADS is listed as advanced, perhaps we can have pro dropships as well with an slightly improved slot layout? Perhaps 5-1 version of the Python and a 2-3 version of the incubus
3-2 Minmatar and a 1-5 Amarr? Paint over the skins, use the tank fitting template downgraded for dropships?


On shields: Pythons that don't use a shield booster rely on high regen to get them back into the action.

Incubi could use high burst regen sure, yet after giving it some though i'm not sure that only a 5% increase to armor hardeners may be suffecient. Moslty because minandos have 10+ prof 5 15% damage bonus before damage mods, I have some doubts that a 5% damage resistance really going to be enough as a defensive measure. I know its not meant to completley nullify incoming damage, but since fitting a hardener means droping hp, its a question of can i tank shots better with a brick or better with a hardener? Can that 5% make hardners a better fitting option? Or will the 30% + Active high regen make incubus balanced?

Are you capable of talking to someone without trying to browbeat them?

Not impressed with you or Doc right now. There's almost nothing constructive between the two of you.

Oh I found out you can't interrupt shield boosters. they only get one pulse for the listed amount.

if you take damage, it just eats part (or all) of that benefit entirely.

so instead of 5 pulses that result in say 1950 HP repped to shields it just does it all at once, rather than spacing it out over 10-15 seconds.

So I dunno what people are thinking whern you say you can "interrupt" the regen.

This thread stopped being constructive once he got in here.

If making a HAV progression works, and it seems it's working overall, even with some slight issues that can be fixed, nothing is stopping us from doing more later. ADS's need to be able to kill these new ADV and PRO MBT's, so keep chiming in with what's necessary.

This is basically it as you describe.

Active = High volume
Passive = Low volume

players should be progressing towards active as it rewards skill, but passive is easier to cope with as a new pilot.

Shouldn't be forced to fit armor reps to be able to recuperate, so native reps, very low.

An offensive action, should be countered with another action (hardening, boosting, active repping) and that in turn should be countered by maneuevering into the back (fuel injector or weak spot), or active dmg modding.

you sure it's just not eating the booster damage?I mean if you're eating fire it's not going to top you off while ignoring the incoming and then retroactively apply the damage. If you're running a booster and during that second you eat 7 proto blaster shots, that's well over 700 damage. Which comes right off the top of the regained HP.So yeah it's going to appear to "interrupt"

now if you're running a complex heavy booster for 1950 and you take the 800 ish damage but you only rep 300 in that time then yeah I can see a problem.

See? You don't use vehicles. If you used shield vehicles, and used a booster, and saw that the slightest damage stops it completely, you wouldn't've had to say anything about that at all. It doesn't get "interrupted," it stops completely and starts the cooldown.

I'm sure. From you're description, ideally the heavy shield booster should at least go near the top underfire and then cut out. From my observations, a booster taking hits will simply stop at what ever stage a round hits it. A pulse lasts a second, so the interruption window is still very small. The only weapon with a high enough ROF to break that is the blaster. Getting your booster interuped by the other weapons is more or less the dice rolling against you.

Best bet vs blaster tanks is to either break LOS, hope they over heat (most inexeperinced tankers do), then kick in booster and force the blaster to start from scratch. Hardeners are more relaible. My new tanks might have a good combination of the two. Hardener, two extenders, perhaps a light and heavy booster.

Sooo...does that mean you're buffing AV to handle tanks, effectively killing dropships, or leaving AV as is, effectively killing AV vs tanks?

AV needs to be toned down.

Sooo...does that mean you're buffing AV to handle tanks, effectively killing dropships, or leaving AV as is, effectively killing AV vs tanks?

if fitting mods are so great, then howcome no one used them on maddys when they had no fitting capacity? its because maddy had other modules that were "better" in terms of use. shield tanks have no other modules that are functionally "better" than fitting mods. thats your fault not ours. if we had something of greater use then we wouldnt be filling our low slot with fitting mods.