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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8772
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Posted - 2015.02.17 07:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
While I agree with Pokey that limitations are always sort of gimmicky, the one (1) Hardener limitation is great. Nothing more cookie-cutter than a multi-hardener Shield HAV running around.
Really like that CCP is being more intuitive with the tools that the community is using, now if only we had a "sample battle" mechanic with which to pit two fits against each other.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8773
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Posted - 2015.02.17 10:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
So, something I've noticed between the Marduk and the Madrugar is that (for the moment) the only real difference between them in the PG/CPU values (presumably because the Marduk has to fit small turrets).
Out of curiosity, based on something Pokey brought up, I looked into what the 'butter zone' was considered when it comes to what power levels of small turrets you could afford just with the Marduk's increased PG/CPU over the Madrugar. Since they have the same exact fitting, bar the PG/CPU, it's a fairly important distinction that the Marduk should be able to play around with it's small turrets.
Here's the results NOTE: I've only done blasters and the two Gallente tanks right now.
So, it seems that if you go into a Marduk without investing any skills, you're only going to be able to fit Standard turrets. But if you skill up to level 5 in -everything-, you can fit up to two Advanced turrets without going over the additional PG/CPU given by the hull itself. Shouldn't this be a bit more, if the tank itself is required to have turrets? On the assumption that a new player is jumping into the thing, he's already getting -4 PG than what the 'show info' says if he's fitting standard blasters.
But the more I think about this balance mechanism, the more I can't seem to wrap my head around how this is all supposed to work. If the only difference between the MBT and the SHAV is that one has higher PG/CPU for the sake of forced-fitted small turrets... What benefit is there at all to use the SHAV? If the MBT is designed to -use- it's small turrets, why can't a Max Skilled Proto Marduk be able to fit two prototype small turrets with the spare PG/CPU given by it's role?
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8773
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Posted - 2015.02.17 10:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/136/11751
I don't like the trend this is going. Tanks seem to be trending toward repair fitting where they need to be buffer fit. When repair oriented, they take damage and come back moments later; even ignoring them for 5s and all you've done to them is repaired. Buffer fits force the pilot to choose between staying and finishing off threats (and having to take more time to repair) or to fall back and try something else. It also increases TTK for high alpha weapons, providing more interesting engagements.
Not to mention that this severely favors armor fits over shield. I know they need a buff but let's strive for balance.
I mean seriously that thing reps from zero in 15s...
Also, I hope you introduce AV small missile turrets with this iteration as well as a buff to small rails, because, as you claim, if ADSs are supposed to be a counter to tanks, they'll need it. Not sure I'm convinced of that yet. Neither tank however interests me greatly though the Caldari HAV still seems to be my go to choice this build even though I despise shield tanking.
Actually, dude raises an interesting point, considering that a Proto Gallente Commando with all skills at level 5 with a Prototype Plasma Cannon is only doing 426 DPS to armor.... and either of the Proto Gallente tanks with 4 Complex Heavy Armor Repairers can repair 508/s....
It's actually virtually impossible for a single player with that fit to do any damage to either of those tanks with those fittings. Even with a Complex Damage Modifier, the commando is only doing 456 DPS, and that's if the shot lands.
I'm checking the other weapons now, but you can see what I'm working with right here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QjKAHl1eEQdc7fFONABPQWuHOXYKCVkwW5MskKCzIoI/edit?usp=sharing
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8775
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Posted - 2015.02.17 11:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:True Adamance wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/136/11751
I don't like the trend this is going. Tanks seem to be trending toward repair fitting where they need to be buffer fit. When repair oriented, they take damage and come back moments later; even ignoring them for 5s and all you've done to them is repaired. Buffer fits force the pilot to choose between staying and finishing off threats (and having to take more time to repair) or to fall back and try something else. It also increases TTK for high alpha weapons, providing more interesting engagements.
Not to mention that this severely favors armor fits over shield. I know they need a buff but let's strive for balance.
I mean seriously that thing reps from zero in 15s...
Also, I hope you introduce AV small missile turrets with this iteration as well as a buff to small rails, because, as you claim, if ADSs are supposed to be a counter to tanks, they'll need it. Not sure I'm convinced of that yet. Neither tank however interests me greatly though the Caldari HAV still seems to be my go to choice this build even though I despise shield tanking. Actually, dude raises an interesting point, considering that a Proto Gallente Commando with all skills at level 5 with a Prototype Plasma Cannon is only doing 426 DPS to armor.... and either of the Proto Gallente tanks with 4 Complex Heavy Armor Repairers can repair 508/s.... It's actually virtually impossible for a single player with that fit to do any damage to either of those tanks with those fittings. Even with a Complex Damage Modifier, the commando is only doing 456 DPS, and that's if the shot lands. I'm checking the other weapons now, but you can see what I'm working with right here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QjKAHl1eEQdc7fFONABPQWuHOXYKCVkwW5MskKCzIoI/edit?usp=sharing Thats the nature of an anti-shield AV weapon vs Armor, Swamers run into similar trouble vs shields. You have to bring the right weapon for the right job. A slow firing anti shield weapon against a rep stacked madrugar is going to have a rough time of it. That same maddy would get eaten alive by any high alpha when you look at the base stats. 4 reps but 3900 hp, its lunch meat for any other tank.
Yeah? And what do you have to say about a Prototype Forge Gun (no damage mods) only doing 107.2 DPS against that same tank? I haven't even checked against Tank Turrets but against anti-infantry, a x4 Complex Heavy Rep tank sounds like hell to deal with for the solo AVer.
EDIT: Best case scenario is a Proto Swarm Launcher on a MinMando with x2 Complex Damage Mods and all skills level five and on paper that deals out 1,870.39 DPS.... but that's not including -any- flight time at all, which only four seconds of flight time completely invalidates any of that damage.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8775
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 11:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Yeah? And what do you have to say about a Prototype Forge Gun (no damage mods) only doing 107.2 DPS against that same tank? I haven't even checked against Tank Turrets but against anti-infantry, a x4 Complex Heavy Rep tank sounds like hell to deal with for the solo AVer.
EDIT: Best case scenario is a Proto Swarm Launcher on a MinMando with x2 Complex Damage Mods and all skills level five and on paper that deals out 1,870.39 DPS.... but that's not including -any- flight time at all, which only four seconds of flight time completely invalidates any of that damage.
Wrong again, Wyrokami breach prof. 5 does 2,700 damage per shot without damage mods. GV.0 with 4 reps has 2700 armor. Thats a two shot, one for the shields, the second shot hits armor and bye bye tank. 2700 armor is much easier for swarms to deal with. Two wryokami armor hits and the tank, again, is dead.
I wasn't wrong and please don't insinuate that I'm "wrong" when you're talking about a completely different weapon. I said a Prototype -FORGE GUN- not a Prototype -BREACH FORGE GUN-.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8779
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Posted - 2015.02.17 13:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Basically, you pay in PG/CPU for the ability to not have other people in your tank.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8783
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Posted - 2015.02.17 23:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Few things:
1) Can you bring up the profile on these tanks? Little weird that (base) Commandos can't pick up a tank on their passive scans.
2) What are ISK prices looking like for the newer tanks? Having more slots but less base durability seems like they should be cheaper if we want them to match current prices through module expenditure.
3) Think you should look at another method of balancing the MBTs' and the SHAVs' fitting costs. Seems like I'd always just slap on some standard turrets and use the extra PG/CPU on the MBT over the SHAV - just get more as a whole. Just as well, I'd be getting more assist points anyway on the off-chance they actually do kill anything with the small guns.
4) What are the bonuses going to look like, if any?
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8789
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 09:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Few things:
1) Can you bring up the profile on these tanks? Little weird that (base) Commandos can't pick up a tank on their passive scans.
2) What are ISK prices looking like for the newer tanks? Having more slots but less base durability seems like they should be cheaper if we want them to match current prices through module expenditure.
3) Think you should look at another method of balancing the MBTs' and the SHAVs' fitting costs. Seems like I'd always just slap on some standard turrets and use the extra PG/CPU on the MBT over the SHAV - just get more as a whole. Just as well, I'd be getting more assist points anyway on the off-chance they actually do kill anything with the small guns.
4) What are the bonuses going to look like, if any? 1) I haven't had this problem 2) Rattati hasn't released ISK costs yet. 3) if you leave the MBT turrets as standard every other thing they can fit is identical. I've been testing this. MBTs don't get extra fitting by cheaping out on turrets. If you can fit it on an SHAV you can fit it on an MBT, you just can't necessarily upgrade the smalls. 4) also not yet released.
1) Oh, you haven't? Well, that's good, glad your experience matters more than the painfully obvious math behind a Tank having 50db Profile and a Commando having 55db Precision.
2) You don't say? Couldn't have had anything to do with why I asked what they were looking like.
3) Wrong. With all skills level five you get significantly more PG/CPU by fitting standard turrets just because of the reduced fitting costs on the small turrets.
4) Also why I asked.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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