That's the point. Why bother with complex manoeuvres that get you killed when simple ones keep you alive and killing.

My question is why are you going into cities with a HAV......

Exactly.

But more to the point you don't need the redline to find cover. Cover is everything around you from the side of a building to the slight incline of a hill that puts you below a Gunnlogi's barrel depression, a turret, anything that can screen or otherwise throw off enemy shots.

If you are in a city socket then you personally need to account for it as you enter, find yourself a location that gives you room to manoeuvre or fire on your enemies, pre-plan an escape route, etc but most of all accept that urban warfare is not where tanks excel.

I'm still struggling to understand where you drew the exaggerated 2 second TTK from especially on a tank....... either HTFU or try out a game like War Thunder which does tank simulation better and has varying TTK depending on where you place your shots, etc. Could be any thing from a OHKO to 1-2 mins or slugging it out.

Edit- Also for a tanker I can accept my KDR is pretty bad for a tanker but I was an assault for a couple of months before I picked up tanking and a partial Commando during the abysmal 1.7 patch when we were so over powered it wasn't even funny.

where did I say 2 second ttk? .. it's 4 seconds ttk . Pop hardeners, count to 4, tank explodes. If you are confused as to how any tank could be anywhere in the map where you are vulnerable for 4 seconds then I can't help you. Stick to the redline. The two seconds was how far from cover you can be, gives you just over a second to react and drive backwards.

What was this originally about again? There was to much arguing and not enough discussion for me to remember.

Go to protofits and test the stats for the madrugar, gunnlogi, marduk and I fforget the caldari one. They are the proposed stats for the gallente and caldari main battle tanks.

Rattati wants critique. I personally think they're pretty damn good overall, certain design decisions notwithstanding.

The pg/cpu mods that are proposed are also in there.

The proposal is one hardener only (If this happens then armor hardeners need to be buffed to 30-35% in order to keep parity with shields if we get proper parity for turrets and AV).

But if you find any giant holes in the proposed stats post them.

mostly the discussion dicdiverged to why everyone disagrees on balance points and design philosophy after what, page 5?

So I recommend getting your own impressions and giving input on your thoughts. Talk to pokey dravon if you're having trouble with figuringbout the fits.

I personally think the pg/cpu mods need to not eat so many resources. The cost/benefit is not a great ratio.

And less shield regen.
Although I will use 2 light boosters, gunlogis will die even quicker to blasters now.

Even four seconds boggles the mind. That's a more than a total of 2230 DPS or 9000 damage in Alpha!

Not many things can achieve this. I simply want to know how you suffered this kind of catastrophic damage within your established parameters (strikes me that JLAV are not likely used in PC).

Also while the redline certainly is a useful tool as a safe zone for redeployment, resupply, and to gain a little bit of battlefield perspective I've long been wishing for a no fire zone in the redline. Deliberately hiding in there because you are unwilling to deploy to the battlefield is somewhat shameful....but I can't begrudge the people who do it...that's their prerogative but it marks the battlefield as MINE if they are unwilling to come down onto it.

Well, one Cx damage modded IAFG deals about 700 DPS before proficiency/bonuses; it's hardly uncommon to be attacked by multiple AV users, and a single Wiyrkomi MinMando will kill an unhardened Madrugar in seven seconds (assuming two damage mods and maxed proficiency we have one second between volleys and three seconds to reload. First volley strips shields, second and third take the HAV down to about 800 HP fourth volley kills the HAV. I'm also assuming two repairers, because plates are garbage). Hardened, that increases to eight seconds - the fifth volley will kill the HAV.
Eight seconds is a long time; it's usually long enough to escape. The MinMando will gain some 3-400 WP out of this. If he has a friend, or he's firing invisibly, you die. One or both of these things are frequent.

It is also perfectly doable to solo a Gunnlogi as a forge-gunner; four shots from a damage-modded IAFG and two Lai-Dai Packed AV grenades will kill pretty much anything, assuming you've already forced the triggering of the hardener (if you didn't why are you bothering?).

Essentially, what's happened is that the only way to survive as a tanker is to either stay in the redline and only come out while hardeners are up and you're certain you won't be ganked upon leaving, or to be so much more skilled and prepared than the AV player that there's nothing he can do (like the idiots who insist on firing swarms at my hardened shield tank, versus the times when I dance around blasters in the street in my Sentinel to score an easy kill).
In the meantime the AV player is making bank, and you're making a loss.

Dunno where you're getting your numbers, currently a triple mod IAFG get 657 DPS. not 700. That's versus armor. versus a gunnlogi, they cap out at 468 DPS.

So no, 700 DPS is misleading.

the Swarm launcher, however... Not so misleading.

On paper vs. armor is 1505 DPS with three damage mods, versus shields it's 872. In both cases far outstripping the forge gun by more than double. In fact the DPS versus shields appears to be higher than the forge gun DPS vs. armor.

The minmando does a base 1575 DPS versus armor, and the sustained fire coming from the reload bonus does the rest.

But the minmando isn't the problem when the base weapon cracks out 1505 DPS.

Just because you CAN fit the LaiDais on the suit, doesn't mean it'll be a good choice, or that the suit will be survivable long enough to kill said tank, since the laidai does less damage than the IAFG overall, and bluntly is much harder to get into range with.

and since it can take upwards of eight forge gun shots to kill a gunnlogi? No, four shots and two laidais don't kill everything. Not reliably enough to be counted on, or taken seriously as a viable AV setup.

Judging all AV by the performance of the swarm launcher is a hilarious and misleading argument, and bluntly it's getting old.

Dunno where you're getting your numbers, currently a triple mod IAFG get 657 DPS. not 700. That's versus armor. versus a gunnlogi, they cap out at 468 DPS.

So no, 700 DPS is misleading.

the Swarm launcher, however... Not so misleading.

On paper vs. armor is 1505 DPS with three damage mods, versus shields it's 872. In both cases far outstripping the forge gun by more than double. In fact the DPS versus shields appears to be higher than the forge gun DPS vs. armor.

The minmando does a base 1575 DPS versus armor, and the sustained fire coming from the reload bonus does the rest.

But the minmando isn't the problem when the base weapon cracks out 1505 DPS.

Just because you CAN fit the LaiDais on the suit, doesn't mean it'll be a good choice, or that the suit will be survivable long enough to kill said tank, since the laidai does less damage than the IAFG overall, and bluntly is much harder to get into range with.

and since it can take upwards of eight forge gun shots to kill a gunnlogi? No, four shots and two laidais don't kill everything. Not reliably enough to be counted on, or taken seriously as a viable AV setup.

Judging all AV by the performance of the swarm launcher is a hilarious and misleading argument, and bluntly it's getting old.

If we are worried about balancing in ambush, just remove vehicles all together from oms. ..


The only thing keeping tanks alive as long as they are now is the ability to stack hardeners, removing this ability, while nerfing shield regen and cpu/pg chips, nerfing base HP of hulls to force the 2 extra slots to be filled with isk costing hp modules, all add up to a vehicle nerf. Armor tanks seem to be in a better place though.

Seems like this was more of an AV buff initiative then a ' let's make tanks useful and give them something to do'

LOL ambush.

there's a lot of whining about OMS and vehicles. It's pure magic.

suck up the pain and spawn AV.

And the gunnlogi is OP. Pure and simple. It's only effectively stopped by another gunnlogi, which has been the developer definition of OP> A thing that can only effectively be countered by itself.

This does make me wonder though, how much of a buff does the maddie need to be on par with infantry AV and would such a buff put them over the top against a gunnlogi.

LOL ambush.

there's a lot of whining about OMS and vehicles. It's pure magic.

suck up the pain and spawn AV.

And the gunnlogi is OP. Pure and simple. It's only effectively stopped by another gunnlogi, which has been the developer definition of OP> A thing that can only effectively be countered by itself.

The gunlogi is no where near OP, and definitely not after all the proposed nerfs.

The gunlogi is the only vehicle that can tank damage from mutiple sources ONLY while it's hardeners are activated, and even theniit's not for any longer than the time it takes a breach forge to fire 3 times.

Once we go hot with Rattati's HAVs the shoe will be on the other foot... to a point. Forge guns and swarms aren't really going to have an easier time killing a gunnlogi.

Whoop de do.

they will have a harder time killing a maddy, so it's a win there.

the trick will be the fact that the way rattati built the HAVs if you were to make two versions of the forge gun, one plasma and one rail, the plasma one would kill the gunnlogi in the time it takes the rail to splatter the madrugar. However if you swapped them, they'd both take about as long as it takes to bust through a gunnlogi NOW.

so they'll be about on par, it'll be a matter of using weapons with the correct damage profiles to do the job rather than "one gun fits all"

Agreed, I've suggested multiple times in the past that we use current weapons, tacking on different damage profiles. EM swarm launchers, can you imagine the tears that would flow!

Would rather see though some amar and minmatar weapons to fill the gap. At least then it wouldn't be spec into FG or SL and have the best of all worlds. At least then you would have to spec into another weapon to achieve the same goals.

Welp, rattati wants to add an AV autocannon (I want to get this so I can spec out of the HMG so bad...) a heavy laser and a plasma mortar, all intended for Av utility.

I've built my proposals for them, I'm just waiting on final HAV numbers so I can finalize the DPS values. But the way I'm setting them up (and I hope rattati runs it this way) is that the plasma mortar and scrambler lance will kill a gunnlogi in about the time it takes a forge gun or autocannon to kill a Madrugar. Rattati's Madrugar, not the current bad joke madrugar.

By the same token, using a forge or autocannon on a gunnlogi, or using a laser/plasma on a madrugar should feel like you are wasting ammunition, IMHO.

I want there to be a "right tool for the job" rather than the current meta of "one weapon needs to do everything."

I hear a lot of mention of the laser weapon and I always think that pretty beam of light that you hold on target. Honestly I can't imagine that would be the right direction for an AV weapon.

I was thinking the laser weapon fires bursts of lasers, rather than a beam of light that only needs to be held on a target. Add a little skill into a weapon. Sure a laser beam works on small targets but on a large target it would be FAR too easy.

I have words for tank drivers who hang around long enough for breach forges to fire three times.

they rhyme with Boron, crabgrass, cupid and shrub

And bluntly, nothing should be balanced to survive 3 v 1. that's stupid as hell.

I dunno, does the tank magically get more protection from having two blueberries in the dump seats?

party tanks are a lot harder to kill than standard one-seaters. Not because the small turrets are amazing.

But because one of the passengers jumps out and rips the AV gunner's head off casually. So I'd say it's a pretty damn viable protective measure.

we will, of course laugh like madmen at the thought of a three man tank in PC. We all know no one EVER does that sh*t there.

Sure why not, it is still a ratio of 1 AV to 3 pilots and 1:3 doesn't look fair to me but yet you will complain that it may take 3 AV to kill 1 HAV. Can't have it both ways.

Small turrets suck, if the AV player is close enough to get there head ripped off that is the AV players fault but there are many areas of a map that the gunners cannot reach out of a tank or in the gun seat.

It has been an option in PC, a rare one but if it is a ratio of 3 man HAV to 3 AV then maybe it may happen.