Brought this over here:



Gah! The ADS is a gunship/dropship hybrid, it should be performing like a light gunship. If it were behaving like a true gunship, HAVs would die inside ten seconds, which just isn't the case. What they do is provide moderate firepower for the cost of transport capacity and resilience, which is exactly what they do right now!

A normal DS can kill an HAV by hovering over it, but it requires a longer time (because it isn't focused on assaulting, like the ADS is) and coordination, but is actually better off because the slower speed/acceleration and disconnected pilot/gunner situation means less overflying and better shots on target.

Essentially, the ADS is not performing like a gunship unfairly, only that the other aspects of the ADS are underperforming.

EDIT: The solution isn't to nerf the gunship part of the ADS, it's to buff and incentivise the transportation parts through WP rewards and better map design.

Also, it was originally designed to be not a gunship at all, rather, as I was pointing out, a DS with a turret being able to give temporary support to infantry, but leaving at the first sight of trouble (a HAV shooting at it, or AV), which isn't currently the case for most HAV's, only rails, and that's at range. The only reason why it became more of a hybrid is because vehicles sucks, especially DS's, and instead of asking for DS role buffs, DS pilots asked for more tank, and more gank, generally anyways.

A normal DS using a gunner is more fair however, seeing that to do the same job, it takes two people to do it. If the ADS required two people to kill a HAV (one gunning, one flying), I really wouldn't be bitching right now, at least as far as it being unfair, rather, saying that is unnecessary, and that it needs to become one seat, and then what I've been saying otherwise.

And to sum it up, making it good at it's intended role is good, however like HAV's with blasters, that won't stop it from doing what it does now, which is farming everything it sees, and that still would need to be addressed.

And as Thaddeus has shown me, I need to be more specific: I was more so talking about blasters and Rockets (Rails are generally fine, if you let anything get close enough to you, that's your fault) not being able to deal with ADS's. For the most part, Rails to ADS's are balanced (maybe rails could use a tad more tracking, not sure, haven't decided yet, probably should wait to see how new turrets turns out), seeing as how the concepts of a Rail works.

Right...where is it written that an ADS is not supposed to provide the current level of firepower? Rattati reduced it to this level and has had no reason to change it further, nor has he made any mention of such a change being needed: why do you think it does if the numbers would suggest that your position is wrong?

ADSs do run immediately upon receiving fire from AV, whether that is infantry or HAV based is irrelevant.



So, to twist your words, it's okay to need more than one person to kill your HAV, but not okay to need more than one for an ADS? I know that's not exactly what you're saying, but the point is that it's exploiting the exact same weakness as the ADS, with some big advantages (better capacity to track the target being a big one) but that is somehow better?!

Why should a solo HAV take two people to kill with an ADS, but not require two people to counter the ADS? This is an unbalanced position.



Grrrr! I hate this absolutely baseless statement: in what way does an ADS farm everything it sees? A missile ADS takes a long time to destroy HAVs (as I showed previously, with actual numbers) and rail ADS has almost no capacity to kill infantry. And again, the ADS is far from invincible: unless it's a Python double stacking hardeners, a single Swarmer gives any ADS a great big headache.

Why do you make this utterly ridiculous claim?!



Missiles are bad? They apply about 5000 damage in about two seconds: how is that bad at dropping ADSs that might even a tiny mistake? They turn the second fastest and have the best elevation, why is that not good for punishing an ADS that strays ever so slightly from their safe spot directly above the HAV?

Missiles are absolutely fine for battering ADSs. The only potential issue is with the Blaster taking a long time to kill vehicles in general.

And Gunships that HAV's can't defend against. You can seriously hover over them and blow them up. Running away doesn't even help it seems, as you can still just fire away at them to kill them. This is highly unreasonable and needs to get fixed (a raise in turret elevation would help).


BLUB

So I'm supposed to hop out of my HAV and risk getting outright killed by a ADS or some other infantry/vehicle, or get ambused?

As an experienced vehicle operator, I think that ADS's being able to hurt HAVs is just fine.
It is a valid tactic with hard counters. Perhaps you should consider putting seats on your tank
and have gunners in your squad with AV. I hear that dropships really hate getting hit
with forges. Try that!

As for your thought as to why they are acting like gunships...
THEY ARE GUNSHIPS! Not as armoured as I would like
but they are built around assault and transport. Getting
from A to B and harassing/killing enemies along the way.

Yes you are.

I could complain "oh these structures make it too easy for tanks to hide" or "you mean I have to get out to put an uplink and risk getting killed?" Ect. Ect.

So cities, where movement is limited for HAV's and AV can esily gank you in?

Do you people like using the same arguments over and over?

EDIT: Why are you putting out uplinks? That's an infantry's job, not a pilot.

I know if a tank is going into a city, it's a no go zone for me (AV knockback + wall touch = instant death) I've also had stalemates with tanks when they a going around objects + forward-back.

I don't know... If a dropship can stay above a tank for a long enough time to kill it, i guess that's kinda your fault? Exploit elevation; exploit inertia.

As for drop off pick up, it doesn't happen often because:
- Small distance between some objectives.
- If near a supply depot, everyone and their mother switches to swarms.
- No need for pick up often. Rare case.
- Fitting a mCRU is suicidal on a python.
- mCRU only works on clones which have been term'd.
- some people rather stay in dropships rather than jumping out.
- sometimes, due to the lack of communication, people aren't leaving because they are at the "wrong" place.
- insta-pop hazards like the ground,
- "assume there is always a red rail"

Generally, you'll see a DS with gunners and well, rare chance of pick-ups and dropoffs too.

The rail has also been nerfed and the ADSs ability also to achieve balance. ROF nerf of the turret and 70% skill nerf (3% rof increase now) the turret's damage has been buffed, nevertheless. Proto rail does 390; (110% + ads skill)a / (90% + ads skill)s compared to 430; (77% + ads skill)s / (63% + ads skill)a

If you don't understand why I'm putting out links then you don't understand this game well enough. Ignorance always breeds QQ

I can't think of the last time an ADS took out my tank. I think it was back in the days before swarm launchers existed and there were enough people willing to fly them on both teams regularly.

I'm gonna be honest here. 1v1 I'd rather be in the tank (and I don't carry swarms in mine.) Missiles can look up, I can scare away an ADS with a lot less effort than I put in to scare away a tank, when I'm in the ADS.

You gotta learn to maneuver the tank and outwit the pilot. A dropship doesn't turn that well, it can point it's turret sideways and it can't shoot you in first person without moving forwards.


At best an ADS can stay out of range, but in a fight, if you do the right things, it wont kill your tank and you wont even have to go to the redzone.

Also if an ADS isn't meant to be a gunship... Why do I have to fit a turret on it?

An HAV going into a city is a dead HAV (maneuvering them isn't a thing, and AV in the city). Not a option.

If you're having trouble with a AHV going around things, you're a terrible pilot, because you know, trying to turn a HAV usually stops it, or overshoots it. forward and back only works with a nitro, and doesn't even deal with the ADS, only delays the death.

Exploiting Inertia is possible on ADS's as well, seeing as unless you're using your AB or going full speed (in which case you're an idiot), turning on a dime is easy. Also, exploiting inertia on a stupid pilot in a HAV doesn't change the fact that the ADS is still there, and you still can't shoot it down, or scare it off.

Those issues are irrelevant to the ADS acting as a Gunship, and more so on how DS's in general as a role sucks, in which I already covered, twice now (as well as the rest of your post, more so). If you read the thread, you would know that.

And because rails are fine against them, Rockets and Blasters are too, huh?

has this thread attracted *any* attention from a dev/gm........... don't see blue tag so stfu, you have made your argument and others has made their counter arguments so if a dev wanted to make a change he would have said so by now.

A HAV can turn w/o stopping, and if it's going around tall buildings or inside a bridge area, hitting a hav is far harder than the usual forward and back.

Those issues are relevant, you were saying why don't ADS behave like a dropship. I told you why.

Blasters only work on shield dropships, where damage output is actually 100%. Anything else it falls below 50%.

A dropship cannot turn immediately. It slips and slides like it's ice.

Forward back becomes godlike with nitro, it is still effective w/o nitro.

Idk man, i'm tired of arguing semantics.

So even though I have every last turret skill to 5, all supporting skills to 5, and both ADS's to 5, I don't pilot ADS's.

Cool ****. I don't believe you're a Pilot by the way, seeing as you're only looking from the side of the ADS, and not the HAV.

Oh, and for the reasons I've for at least 7 times pointed out, no, they can't. the ADS has a counter for every move a HAV can make. Try to anuver? ADS can slightly adjust. Try to shoot back via a hill? either climb in elevation so it hav no effect, or go to the opposite side of the HAV. Pilot is AV? He's a **** nut, shoot the HAV, and even if you have to fly away, the HAV is now a sitting duck (especially now that entering/exit delays might come in SOONtm). I think YOU'RE either too lazy or too stupid to figure out these things, which is why amny people shouldn't really talk about balance when they have absolutely no clue what the hell they are talking about.

you claim too have killed 37 havs the other day with an ads but i don't see no proof

i went 120/0 the other day........see what i did there?

...It's not even effective without, you're just simply a scrub.

Have you ever thought of leaving for a few seconds and coming back when he's busy farming infantry or LAVs? You're over thinking it, really. Or since you say you're a pilot, you could just get a railbus out and shoot them down? And tell me what you think the word "Assault" means?

If you are supposed to be persuading me then why the hell do you want to insult me? Seriously how do you expect someone to have a rational discussion with you when you cannot even respect one?

I'm not mad, but i'm making you know insulting someone removes the context of what you're saying.

"you may be the smartest person in the world; however, if you're rude, nobody will listen."

If you can't track the sluggish movements of a HAV moving forward and backwards, I'm sorry, but you need to practice. That's simply all it comes down to.

Life is harsh, deal with it.

Oh no, i can. I need to be able to say it for everyone and anyone.

Life is harsh, but that isn't an excuse to be disrespectful.

Edit: anyways, the best way to forward back is when the dropship is turning, you forward against it (now it's a 360 the ship makes) and keep doing that. By the next turn around, one could have "potentially" backed up far enough to fire at the dropship. Then there is hitting nitro and just going ><><><><

Are you denying that you're a scrub, seeing as you can't even track a HAV going back and forward without nitro then? Because that's simply the truth of the matter. Or is it that you don't want me to tell you the truth?

Turning isn't a issue in a ADS. I turn on HAV's easily, and if I somehow mess up (almost hit something), flying higher invalidates them.

you claim too have killed 37 havs the other day with an ads but i don't see no proof

i went 120/0 the other day........see what i did there?

I've countered every single point you've made already, and I'm sick of doing so. Read the ******* thread.