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Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1634	Posted - 2015.02.02 03:50:00 - [1] - Quote The cloak user can be seen from a mile away, I mean, I can head shot those guys with a sniper rifle is how easily they are spotted. I'm not asking you to change that but it needs to be re-balanced. It doesn't really offer much for how much it takes away. Not only does it make all those precision enhancers and range extenders you put on useless, it gives are a really long battle wise delay. 1 second delay is enough for weapons to do 400+ damage and 900+ incase of the HMG. BUT- since we have no ewar while using cloak, this increases out chances of run face first into an enemy and adding in the stupid delay- we are literally at a disadvantage every single time. I spent 2.5 million + SP to get my Prototype Caldari Scout and when I cloak up, I lose all my ewar. No wonder no scout uses precision enhancers when running fits with a cloak. It's not fair!! Give me either one, either give me my ewar back or give me no decloak delay. It is super annoying being blinder than a heavy. Not only does it not make sense that a scout has worse ewar than a heavy, but on top of that, the stupid delay makes life impossible. The current ewar system is pretty bad for scouts, our range is really low even while decloaked, range extenders are a waste of slot and on top of that, the cloak takes away all the range. I mean, you might aswell use a logistics suit for ewar than a scout because we are now not even scouting. Scouts are the guys that hide and have no clue where the enemy is. This is the role being projected at me when I lost 85% of my range. Have you seen caldari scouts is PC? They all have 453 shields because since this stupid cloak range nerf, there is not one reason to use a precision enhancer. Also- Gal logi does a scouts job 5x better. I can literally sit in a corner all match in my dampened gal logi and provide ewar with my 4 scanners TO THE WHOLE TEAM and get WP out of it. What does it scout do? TL;DR remove the range nerf while cloaked, it is a huge nerf to those scouts that actually used to run ewar. Scouts that used to run ewar depended on the cloak because they usually had like 200-300 ehp but since the cloak takes away all the bonuses instead of running ewar, everybody brick tanks. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6288	Posted - 2015.02.02 04:04:00 - [2] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: No wonder no scout uses precision enhancers when running fits with a cloak. One Precision Enhancer on an MN/CA/GA Scout will pick up single damp'd Assaults (30dB). I run one often. I do not disagree with you that cloak needs work. I'd personally like to see shimmer refined. It'd also be great if the decloak delay trigger were fixed. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 606	Posted - 2015.02.02 04:10:00 - [3] - Quote Potential methods to use cloak use: 1:Sneak around the battlefield. 2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy. 3: Scan 4: Hit them in the rear. 5:Profit
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1637	Posted - 2015.02.02 04:11:00 - [4] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Potential methods to use cloak use: 1:Sneak around the battlefield. 2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy. 3: Scan 4: Hit them in the rear. 5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Mikel Arias Challengers 506 59	Posted - 2015.02.02 04:12:00 - [5] - Quote I think that before the nerf there were scouts with more than 500 armor... with cloaks... Now, its true that its not like before, when you had an amazing ewar; you knew where every enemy was and they didnt know where you were, and you could just appear in a second and BOOM!!! SHOTGUN!!! Ah... I miss that... However, its not so different now, not if you pay attention to your surroundings (the ewar part), and even tough its true that if you find a heavy around the corner you are dead, you can still easily kill enemies from behind, the side, and even face to face, if you have a nice strategy... wich is something people tend to forget when they complain about this or that, asking for a nerf or a buff (its not personal nor against you); a scout is not a clone that should fight in the open, neither against many targets, nor in a situation where he cant find cover in case he/she needs to escape, also, the cloak its a great tool not to to run from one side of the map to the other side, but to ambush, run away or hide. But thats just my opinion. So... -+a second too long? Maybe. But if you anticipate and you have a plan, a second is more than enough.
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1637	Posted - 2015.02.02 04:13:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: No wonder no scout uses precision enhancers when running fits with a cloak. One Precision Enhancer on an MN/CA/GA Scout will pick up single damp'd Assaults (30dB) on mid-range scans. You'll otherwise miss 'em. I run one often. I do not disagree with you that cloak needs work. I'd personally like to see shimmer refined. It'd also be great if the decloak delay trigger were fixed. Tell me if you pick up my Assault when you are cloaked. I could be running right behind you while you are cloaked and u have no clue. Heavies can flank scouts that are cloaked. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 828	Posted - 2015.02.02 04:17:00 - [7] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Potential methods to use cloak use: 1:Sneak around the battlefield. 2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy. 3: Scan 4: Hit them in the rear. 5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. What happened to the "Eyes are OP" statements thrown around before the cloak was nerfed. I think that the cloak should be less clunky, and there is room for improvement. But if "Eyes are OP" was a valid response for why the cloak should not have been nerfed in the first place, then it should be more than a valid response for how you should pick up the other non-cloaked suits on the field. Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6925	Posted - 2015.02.02 05:19:00 - [8] - Quote Eyes are OP. You should use them. AV
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1642	Posted - 2015.02.02 05:36:00 - [9] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Eyes are OP. You should use them. Eyes may be OP but cloak is UP. Anyway, if eyes were so OP, why would so many people use ewar mods? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Starlight Burner ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 103	Posted - 2015.02.02 05:45:00 - [10] - Quote I do not agree with buffing the cloak. I think it is just fine and scouts have been put in place as 'scouts'. Thank god for CCP Rattati!! Rogue Relics is my home away from home.

gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 848	Posted - 2015.02.02 06:08:00 - [11] - Quote There was once a time that the consensus was that it wasn't that cloak scouts had range on scans while cloaked, but that scouts could over take the role of an assault because of their ability to brick tank. Passive scanning, like hp tanking is currently, was supposed to be something you benefit from if you dedicate your suit to it. Passive scanning is a joke because the active scanner did not get nerfed accordingly. Because apparently giving up an equipment slot is much more taxing to a suit than sacrificing all HP capabilities to avoid detection, or see the some of enemy team. I'm disgusted that even though the dev post did in fact say that all scans would lose directional, but they didn't. Active scanners are 100x better than passives at this point, they don't worry about the circle of e-war, they have a fixed, long range, they even show you exactly how the enemy is oriented. People may argue "but you can get under an active scanner in a scout," well it's not like any E-war scout is gonna scan them. Beyond all that the scout's main equipment, the cloak, actually penalizes them further for something they dedicated their suit to. Yes the thing that's supposed to help the suit shine, actually hinders the scout from avoiding detection. Vision alone is obviously not enough considering all the weapons in game have a minimum of 30m, to entertain that thought is asinine especially with the amount of hp that people who actually dedicate suits to E-war get. Anyway, I'm so very glad that it was the FOTM chasing "scouts" that decided that the only way to fix scouts was to buff assaults, and nerf e-war to the point of irrelevance. I mean it's not like E-war was the role of scout suits or anything right? It's not like there was a bigger issue that was completely ignored because another suit became viable, right? GimmeDatSuhWeet isk #We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Samantha Hunyz Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 151	Posted - 2015.02.02 07:17:00 - [12] - Quote Cal scout sniper checking in. I use my cloak to get away from players getting too close and it works 90% of the time. I do agree that the nerf was over done but I do like the range reduction just not at the complete levels it is at. close range should be 90%, mid 60%, and long 30% of range and precision levels. Even still, I would rather have that long switch between cloak and weapon reduced so I can shoot them lifeless turret operators from 2m away in the head with my SR without having to decloak deep in enemy near where they spawn. Either way, fix or no, I still like my adv cloak, and see no reason to go proto with it. When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
JIMvc2 Consolidated Dust 613	Posted - 2015.02.02 08:40:00 - [13] - Quote Do not touch the cloak. No Buff needed Leave ASS Is. MAG Raven vet 7 times. Favorite weapon F90 and Highest Kills 78 and 23 deaths.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 2006	Posted - 2015.02.02 08:49:00 - [14] - Quote they need to fix: -delay applying when you are not even cloaked -aim assist locking on to cloaked scout you havent seen -crosshair turning red when moving over cloaked scout you havent seen find solution for that and I am happy.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1377	Posted - 2015.02.02 10:03:00 - [15] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: stuff Bruh, totally worth using a lot slot for 15% of 25 Sooo ***** worth it for 3.75 meters. Like holy ** that's a whole 8.8 CPU per meter of range! If I ran two, I could get a whole 7.4 more range! Such a good use of slots, why doesn't everyone use this? I'm the Rayman of uplinks. 21 day EVE trial.
BL4CKST4R Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 3538	Posted - 2015.02.02 11:42:00 - [16] - Quote Your looking at the cloak the wrong way, it's a defensive tool now to run away and survive not charge and attack. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 2006	Posted - 2015.02.02 12:23:00 - [17] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Your looking at the cloak the wrong way, it's a defensive tool now to run away and survive not charge and attack. it does not work as defensive tool well either. cloaked scout is easy enough to spot with regular eye sight. additionally to that, aim assist locks on to a cloaked and crosshair turns red close to a cloaked scout regardless if you actually saw him or not. cloak delay is also applied regardless if you are cloaked or not. fix those issues and we can talk about using the cloak as defensive tool.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4474	Posted - 2015.02.02 13:19:00 - [18] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Potential methods to use cloak use: 1:Sneak around the battlefield. 2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy. 3: Scan 4: Hit them in the rear. 5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Standard issue Eyeballs and a friendly active scan. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1646	Posted - 2015.02.02 13:55:00 - [19] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: I do not agree with buffing the cloak. I think it is just fine and scouts have been put in place as 'scouts'. You mean brick tanked assault like suits? Because not one scout on the field actually runs the scout suit scouting. It's pretty sad scouts are using Acrive scanners. Even Caldari scouts. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1646	Posted - 2015.02.02 13:57:00 - [20] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: There was once a time that the consensus was that it wasn't that cloak scouts had range on scans while cloaked, but that scouts could over take the role of an assault because of their ability to brick tank. Passive scanning, like hp tanking is currently, was supposed to be something you benefit from if you dedicate your suit to it. Passive scanning is a joke because the active scanner did not get nerfed accordingly. Because apparently giving up an equipment slot is much more taxing to a suit than sacrificing all HP capabilities to avoid detection, or see the some of enemy team. I'm disgusted that even though the dev post did in fact say that all scans would lose directional, but they didn't. Active scanners are 100x better than passives at this point, they don't worry about the circle of e-war, they have a fixed, long range, they even show you exactly how the enemy is oriented. People may argue "but you can get under an active scanner in a scout," well it's not like any E-war scout is gonna scan them. Beyond all that the scout's main equipment, the cloak, actually penalizes them further for something they dedicated their suit to. Yes the thing that's supposed to help the suit shine, actually hinders the scout from avoiding detection. Vision alone is obviously not enough considering all the weapons in game have a minimum of 30m, to entertain that thought is asinine especially with the amount of hp that people who actually dedicate suits to E-war get. Anyway, I'm so very glad that it was the FOTM chasing "scouts" that decided that the only way to fix scouts was to buff assaults, and nerf e-war to the point of irrelevance. I mean it's not like E-war was the role of scout suits or anything right? It's not like there was a bigger issue that was completely ignored because another suit became viable, right? 100% correct. Couldn't agree with you more. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris

Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1646	Posted - 2015.02.02 13:58:00 - [21] - Quote JIMvc2 wrote: Do not touch the cloak. No Buff needed Leave ASS Is. What is your reason? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2457	Posted - 2015.02.02 13:58:00 - [22] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Starlight Burner wrote: I do not agree with buffing the cloak. I think it is just fine and scouts have been put in place as 'scouts'. You mean brick tanked assault like suits? Because not one scout on the field actually runs the scout suit scouting. It's pretty sad scouts are using Acrive scanners. Even Caldari scouts. Why is that sad? They're scouts. Why shouldn't they use the tools available to them to improve their ability to scout? We the pc players make up a huge majority of active players. --Roman837 ^^ROFLMAO OMG I need to catch my breath now..
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1646	Posted - 2015.02.02 13:59:00 - [23] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Potential methods to use cloak use: 1:Sneak around the battlefield. 2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy. 3: Scan 4: Hit them in the rear. 5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Standard issue Eyeballs and a friendly active scan. So some form of ewar? I cant just spin 360 all match making sure nobody sneaking up on me from back. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1646	Posted - 2015.02.02 14:01:00 - [24] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Starlight Burner wrote: I do not agree with buffing the cloak. I think it is just fine and scouts have been put in place as 'scouts'. You mean brick tanked assault like suits? Because not one scout on the field actually runs the scout suit scouting. It's pretty sad scouts are using Acrive scanners. Even Caldari scouts. Why is that sad? They're scouts. Why shouldn't they use the tools available to them to improve their ability to scout? Because maybe we skilled into scouts so we don't have to use those active scanners. I skilled into a Cadalri scout to have good passive scans, which I dont. A suit built around scanning shouldn't have to use a freking scanner. Dude, do you get any dumber? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2457	Posted - 2015.02.02 14:04:00 - [25] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Starlight Burner wrote: I do not agree with buffing the cloak. I think it is just fine and scouts have been put in place as 'scouts'. You mean brick tanked assault like suits? Because not one scout on the field actually runs the scout suit scouting. It's pretty sad scouts are using Acrive scanners. Even Caldari scouts. Why is that sad? They're scouts. Why shouldn't they use the tools available to them to improve their ability to scout? Because maybe we skilled into scouts so we don't have to use those active scanners. I skilled into a Cadalri scout to have good passive scans, which I dont. A suit built around scanning shouldn't have to use a freking scanner. Dude, do you get any dumber? lol says the one who is grasping at straws so much he feels the need to ad hom.... We the pc players make up a huge majority of active players. --Roman837 ^^ROFLMAO OMG I need to catch my breath now..
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1646	Posted - 2015.02.02 14:09:00 - [26] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Starlight Burner wrote: I do not agree with buffing the cloak. I think it is just fine and scouts have been put in place as 'scouts'. You mean brick tanked assault like suits? Because not one scout on the field actually runs the scout suit scouting. It's pretty sad scouts are using Acrive scanners. Even Caldari scouts. Why is that sad? They're scouts. Why shouldn't they use the tools available to them to improve their ability to scout? Because maybe we skilled into scouts so we don't have to use those active scanners. I skilled into a Cadalri scout to have good passive scans, which I dont. A suit built around scanning shouldn't have to use a freking scanner. Dude, do you get any dumber? lol says the one who is grasping at straws so much he feels the need to ad hom.... You mean making a valid argument while you are over their blabbering your ass off thinking you got something inside that peanut of a brain. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2457	Posted - 2015.02.02 14:17:00 - [27] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: You mean making a valid argument while you are over their blabbering your ass off thinking you got something inside that peanut of a brain. Scouts are intended to wait for it........ Scout the enemy. So it stands to reason that if there are tools available that improve their ability to scout, they should use them. Sorry that you got so caught up in "WAAHAHAHHHAHHH I can't do what I thought I could do with a suit so I'll cry to mama CCP to change the game to suit me even though there are respecs available on the market" that you couldn't actually listen to reason while over there stroking your ego thinking you actually had a legitimate argument. Have fun crying in your thread tool, I see now what this thread is and I am not going to waste anymore time on it. We the pc players make up a huge majority of active players. --Roman837 ^^ROFLMAO OMG I need to catch my breath now..
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1646	Posted - 2015.02.02 14:20:00 - [28] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: You mean making a valid argument while you are over their blabbering your ass off thinking you got something inside that peanut of a brain. Scouts are intended to wait for it........ Scout the enemy. So it stands to reason that if there are tools available that improve their ability to scout, they should use them. Sorry that you got so caught up in "WAAHAHAHHHAHHH I can't do what I thought I could do with a suit so I'll cry to mama CCP to change the game to suit me even though there are respecs available on the market" that you couldn't actually listen to reason while over there stroking your ego thinking you actually had a legitimate argument. Have fun crying in your thread tool, I see now what this thread is and I am not going to waste anymore time on it. So, according to your argument, a Gallante Logistcs is the only real scout? I mean, they have bonuses toward Active Scanners... Also-listen to your self "that you couldn't actually listen to reason while over there stroking your ego thinking you actually had a legitimate argument." That is a prime example of your logic. Edit: Do you even know what this thread is about? If scouts were for scouting, why do we get a bonus to a piece of equipment that penalizes our scout role? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 830	Posted - 2015.02.02 15:23:00 - [29] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Potential methods to use cloak use: 1:Sneak around the battlefield. 2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy. 3: Scan 4: Hit them in the rear. 5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Standard issue Eyeballs and a friendly active scan. So some form of ewar? I cant just spin 360 all match making sure nobody sneaking up on me from back. Again, this is the same argument that was used against non-cloak users to defend themselves from sneak attack. It was just phrased differently: "Always check your surroundings..." "Never assume you are alone or safe..." etc. I'm not sure if you were part of the group of scouts who made that argument. However, 'you' (in an abstract sense of the word) can't have your cake and eat it too. The situation you're describing sounds like the situation that non-cloak users are in when they fight cloak users. So, you should be able to use the same advice that was given before. Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
501st Headstrong 0uter.Heaven 827	Posted - 2015.02.02 15:50:00 - [30] - Quote Can the range reduction at least go please? I mean really? We already have varying levels of ewar now, but i dont even clearly know the levels aside from close, mid, and long. Now nerf that by 85%. If a scout is for scouting, then why is it I have to be looking at a hostile to see them. That's not scouting anymore. Thats called Combat. "There are no rights. The world owes no one a living."-Sumner Official 0uter.Heaven Mascot XD Moody come back SWBF3!!

Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1661	Posted - 2015.02.02 15:53:00 - [31] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Potential methods to use cloak use: 1:Sneak around the battlefield. 2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy. 3: Scan 4: Hit them in the rear. 5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Standard issue Eyeballs and a friendly active scan. So some form of ewar? I cant just spin 360 all match making sure nobody sneaking up on me from back. Again, this is the same argument that was used against non-cloak users to defend themselves from sneak attack. It was just phrased differently: "Always check your surroundings..." "Never assume you are alone or safe..." etc. I'm not sure if you were part of the group of scouts who made that argument. However, 'you' (in an abstract sense of the word) can't have your cake and eat it too. The situation you're describing sounds like the situation that non-cloak users are in when they fight cloak users. So, you should be able to use the same advice that was given before. But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2516	Posted - 2015.02.02 16:04:00 - [32] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Potential methods to use cloak use: 1:Sneak around the battlefield. 2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy. 3: Scan 4: Hit them in the rear. 5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Looking at the TV screen is a good start. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2516	Posted - 2015.02.02 16:07:00 - [33] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: Can the range reduction at least go please? I mean really? We already have varying levels of ewar now, but i dont even clearly know the levels aside from close, mid, and long. Now nerf that by 85%. If a scout is for scouting, then why is it I have to be looking at a hostile to see them. That's not scouting anymore. Thats called Combat. Because other people cannot see you. That's the point. The cloak isn't supposed to allow you to run around willy-nilly and shotgun people from out of nowhere. That's why it's been so OP. Plus it's not like it occludes your screen in any way (although that is an interesting idea) so you can still find people just fine. You just don't have your tacnet anymore. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 206	Posted - 2015.02.02 16:16:00 - [34] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Let me extend my heartfelt, deeply sincere sympathies to you, as you complain about not knowing where the enemy is in a thread dedicated to buffing cloaks... Seriously, I still get killed by de-cloaking shotgun scouts more than often enough to opine that cloaks don't need a buff. The suggestion that they are underpowered, should be ridiculed. On those rare occasions when I do spot a cloaked scout (as opposed to simply being assassinated by one, having had no idea he was present until I was down) they still manage to get away pretty frequently because of their speed. How about scouts gain the Gal logi scan bonus, and lose the cloak bonus and second equipment slot? Then you'd be scouts instead of ninjas. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 365	Posted - 2015.02.02 16:20:00 - [35] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Potential methods to use cloak use: 1:Sneak around the battlefield. 2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy. 3: Scan 4: Hit them in the rear. 5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. What happened to the "Eyes are OP" statements thrown around before the cloak was nerfed. I think that the cloak should be less clunky, and there is room for improvement. But if "Eyes are OP" was a valid response for why the cloak should not have been nerfed in the first place, then it should be more than a valid response for how you should pick up the other non-cloaked suits on the field. A thousand likes aren't enough. All this crying about being scan blind from scouts is hilarious.
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 365	Posted - 2015.02.02 16:24:00 - [36] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: There was once a time that the consensus was that it wasn't that cloak scouts had range on scans while cloaked, but that scouts could over take the role of an assault because of their ability to brick tank. Passive scanning, like hp tanking is currently, was supposed to be something you benefit from if you dedicate your suit to it. Passive scanning is a joke because the active scanner did not get nerfed accordingly. Because apparently giving up an equipment slot is much more taxing to a suit than sacrificing all HP capabilities to avoid detection, or see the some of enemy team. I'm disgusted that even though the dev post did in fact say that all scans would lose directional, but they didn't. Active scanners are 100x better than passives at this point, they don't worry about the circle of e-war, they have a fixed, long range, they even show you exactly how the enemy is oriented. People may argue "but you can get under an active scanner in a scout," well it's not like any E-war scout is gonna scan them. Beyond all that the scout's main equipment, the cloak, actually penalizes them further for something they dedicated their suit to. Yes the thing that's supposed to help the suit shine, actually hinders the scout from avoiding detection. Vision alone is obviously not enough considering all the weapons in game have a minimum of 30m, to entertain that thought is asinine especially with the amount of hp that people who actually dedicate suits to E-war get. Anyway, I'm so very glad that it was the FOTM chasing "scouts" that decided that the only way to fix scouts was to buff assaults, and nerf e-war to the point of irrelevance. I mean it's not like E-war was the role of scout suits or anything right? It's not like there was a bigger issue that was completely ignored because another suit became viable, right? While I agree the scout's role should be EWAR, and that role may have been nerfed too much, the solution isnt to buff the cloak again. Even now in its nerfed state the cloak is an incredibly effective tool for getting the drop on people.
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 365	Posted - 2015.02.02 16:26:00 - [37] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: they need to fix: -delay applying when you are not even cloaked -aim assist locking on to cloaked scout you havent seen -crosshair turning red when moving over cloaked scout you havent seen find solution for that and I am happy. And how does Dust 514 know if you have or havent seen the scout?
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1662	Posted - 2015.02.02 16:37:00 - [38] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Let me extend my heartfelt, deeply sincere sympathies to you, as you complain about not knowing where the enemy is in a thread dedicated to buffing cloaks... Seriously, I still get killed by de-cloaking shotgun scouts more than often enough to opine that cloaks don't need a buff. The suggestion that they are underpowered, should be ridiculed. On those rare occasions when I do spot a cloaked scout (as opposed to simply being assassinated by one, having had no idea he was present until I was down) they still manage to get away pretty frequently because of their speed. How about scouts gain the Gal logi scan bonus, and lose the cloak bonus and second equipment slot? Then you'd be scouts instead of ninjas. So your whole argument is based on the fact that you get killed by shotgun scouts, maybe that is a shotgun problem. Also- you do know that losing the cloak bonus makes the cloak unusable by everything. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 33	Posted - 2015.02.02 16:50:00 - [39] - Quote I would be fine with the eWAR castration part, except there really is no way to detect enemies that are behind you with the cloak up. You cannot hear anything like footsteps, which is something I rely heavily on in my assault, which is just about as good as eWAR. Killed by Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p on June 28 1914. Last words: "Nova Knives and a Flaylock Pistol? I might just die laughing!"
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1665	Posted - 2015.02.02 16:52:00 - [40] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: 501st Headstrong wrote: Can the range reduction at least go please? I mean really? We already have varying levels of ewar now, but i dont even clearly know the levels aside from close, mid, and long. Now nerf that by 85%. If a scout is for scouting, then why is it I have to be looking at a hostile to see them. That's not scouting anymore. Thats called Combat. Because other people cannot see you. That's the point. The cloak isn't supposed to allow you to run around willy-nilly and shotgun people from out of nowhere. That's why it's been so OP. Plus it's not like it occludes your screen in any way (although that is an interesting idea) so you can still find people just fine. You just don't have your tacnet anymore. I can see a scout from 70m out and you guys can't spot me from 20m?? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris

Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 832	Posted - 2015.02.02 19:19:00 - [41] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close. You are correct. It is a scout. And it can scout out different positions with its high speed, as well. Being a scout isn't defined by "How strong is my radar", because if it was, then anyone with enough EWAR modules would be a "scout". Being a scout includes higher mobility, lower profile, etc. To answer your question again, more succinctly, you can scout without being wholly dependent on your mini-map. You can also use your suit inherent speed and stamina bonuses to visually confirm enemies, and then escape without detection via your inherently reduced profile. TL:DR - There is more than one way to be a scout Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 462	Posted - 2015.02.02 19:43:00 - [42] - Quote Just give us more cloaking modules, with various advantages and disadvantages. Cloaking range nerf was kick in the lying solo-scout, and it did not even touch squad-scouts. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
Protected Void Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 385	Posted - 2015.02.02 21:52:00 - [43] - Quote Edit: never mind, I apparently can't read :-S
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1676	Posted - 2015.02.02 22:20:00 - [44] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close. You are correct. It is a scout. And it can scout out different positions with its high speed, as well. Being a scout isn't defined by "How strong is my radar", because if it was, then anyone with enough EWAR modules would be a "scout". Being a scout includes higher mobility, lower profile, etc. To answer your question again, more succinctly, you can scout without being wholly dependent on your mini-map. You can also use your suit inherent speed and stamina bonuses to visually confirm enemies, and then escape without detection via your inherently reduced profile. TL:DR - There is more than one way to be a scout So what do u have against Cloaking range nerf removed. Also, a min Assault can run at 10.4 m/s and have a DB under 25. Therefore min Assault is just a tankier faster Scout? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1212	Posted - 2015.02.02 22:37:00 - [45] - Quote God please no... Please support fair play!
Varoth Drac State of Purgatory 557	Posted - 2015.02.02 23:19:00 - [46] - Quote Cloak range nerf is ok, makes for interesting gameplay. Switching between scanning and visual scanning. The cloak's visibility reduction allows you to have a look around without (hopefully) being spotted yourself. Plus cloaking has that whole submarine diving feeling to it, which fits well with scan blindness. Things that should be fixed with cloaks: They are too easy for experieced players to spot. Nothing more annoying than attempting a cloaked flank, just to be spotted anyway. Not advocating total invisibility whilst in motion, that would be too easy, just less shimmer. They feel clunky. By all means keep the delay, but the thing where sprinting part way through the decloak cancels the weapon switch is super annoying. Also there also should only be a delay if you are actually cloaked, not for just switching out from holding the cloak.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 208	Posted - 2015.02.02 23:29:00 - [47] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Let me extend my heartfelt, deeply sincere sympathies to you, as you complain about not knowing where the enemy is in a thread dedicated to buffing cloaks... Seriously, I still get killed by de-cloaking shotgun scouts more than often enough to opine that cloaks don't need a buff. The suggestion that they are underpowered, should be ridiculed. On those rare occasions when I do spot a cloaked scout (as opposed to simply being assassinated by one, having had no idea he was present until I was down) they still manage to get away pretty frequently because of their speed. How about scouts gain the Gal logi scan bonus, and lose the cloak bonus and second equipment slot? Then you'd be scouts instead of ninjas. So your whole argument is based on the fact that you get killed by shotgun scouts, maybe that is a shotgun problem. Also- you do know that losing the cloak bonus makes the cloak unusable by everything. I'm not making an argument. You are. Badly. Your argument is a form of special pleading: you want to have an easier time telling where your enemies are, while making it harder for your enemies to know where you are. Do you really not understand why getting what you want would be terrible for the game's balance? Do you not understand why complaining about having "no clue where the enemy is" in your 'buff cloaks" thread isn't persuasive to any of the players who don't run scouts? I'm glad you made this thread though, so Ratatti can be reminded of why cloaks are in a pretty good place, and don't need to be buffed at all. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 208	Posted - 2015.02.02 23:35:00 - [48] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: They are too easy for experieced players to spot. Nothing more annoying than attempting a cloaked flank, just to be spotted anyway. Not advocating total invisibility whilst in motion, that would be too easy, just less shimmer. The shimmer is just right. I sometimes catch a scout's shimmer out of the corner of my eye, only to lose them when I turn and scan for them with my cross-hair. Most of the time I catch a cloaked scout's shimmer, they're moving very stupidly, across a wide open space in dark lighting. That's exactly as it should be. You could even make the shimmer more visible and it wouldn't slow the good scouts down at all. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 7589	Posted - 2015.02.02 23:37:00 - [49] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Let me extend my heartfelt, deeply sincere sympathies to you, as you complain about not knowing where the enemy is in a thread dedicated to buffing cloaks... Seriously, I still get killed by de-cloaking shotgun scouts more than often enough to opine that cloaks don't need a buff. The suggestion that they are underpowered, should be ridiculed. On those rare occasions when I do spot a cloaked scout (as opposed to simply being assassinated by one, having had no idea he was present until I was down) they still manage to get away pretty frequently because of their speed. How about scouts gain the Gal logi scan bonus, and lose the cloak bonus and second equipment slot? Then you'd be scouts instead of ninjas. So your whole argument is based on the fact that you get killed by shotgun scouts, maybe that is a shotgun problem. Also- you do know that losing the cloak bonus makes the cloak unusable by everything. I'm not making an argument. You are. Badly. Your argument is a form of special pleading: you want to have an easier time telling where your enemies are, while making it harder for your enemies to know where you are. Do you really not understand why getting what you want would be terrible for the game's balance? Do you not understand why complaining about having "no clue where the enemy is" in your 'buff cloaks" thread isn't persuasive to any of the players who don't run scouts? I'm glad you made this thread though, so Ratatti can be reminded of why cloaks are in a pretty good place, and don't need to be buffed at all. Rattati himself has actually mentioned making changes, and being open to changing the EWAR constraints in some way among other things. The fact is, the cloak as it stands is a waste for many players. It neither truly hides you, nor does it let you retaliate once seen. The delay is glitched such that you don't have to actually have the cloak active, only equipped, to experience the delay. If, God forbid, you sprint too soon after switching from cloak, not only do you have the delay (cloaked or not), but the game somehow switches you back to the cloak, forcing you to go through a delay AGAIN. The combat nature of the cloak was an issue. The intended use of the cloak is to cross open ground safely for suits that have significant HP disadvantages. The cloak is no longer fulfilling its role as intended and it is not a mistake to try and rectify that. I don't think Rattati wants a useless cloak anymore than he wants an OP one. As much as you think that he will think it in a good place and ignore us, I suggest that if he looks at his data and sees that the cloak is being under utilized, or significantly negatively influencing those that use it, he will just as likely ignore someone claiming the cloak is in a good place. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DDx77 The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 109	Posted - 2015.02.03 00:15:00 - [50] - Quote I kinda like the way it is right now as far as scanning because of the scanning limitations from the nerf they should have increased the cloaked times I would love the cloaked times to go back to when they were originally introduced or a subtle increase such as: 22 sec for basic 37 sec for advanced 50 sec for proto I don't think this would be game breaking and might solve the issue with the basic being somewhat useless and proto not worth skilling up to. I would like to also suggest removing the cloak slow arm awkward delay when switching to your weapon ( which some claim affect logi's as well) Simply require the player to press the cloak button again to decloak. The time it takes to do that and switch to your weapon should be about the same it takes now except it will be much more natural and fluid. (This is a suggestion I picked up on another thread) Like most nerfs, I think they were hit a bit hard and now multiple updates and game changing modes later the leash on them should be lessened a bit. Boosting : Allowing the server to protect people from other countries from taking damage

Varoth Drac State of Purgatory General Tso's Alliance 560	Posted - 2015.02.03 00:23:00 - [51] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: The shimmer is just right. I sometimes catch a scout's shimmer out of the corner of my eye, only to lose them when I turn and scan for them with my cross-hair. Most of the time I catch a cloaked scout's shimmer, they're moving very stupidly, across a wide open space in dark lighting. That's exactly as it should be. I appreciate your opinion, and you could be right. It's just that it feels a bit too common that I get spotted. I don't think you should be able to run right infront of someone without being seen, but quite often I'll be a good way away, trying to stay around or beyond my opponent's peripheral vision so as not to be seen, and yet I still get spotted. This combined with hearing a lot of people declare that they have stopped using cloaks, makes me feel that they could do with less shimmer. If the cloak isn't for moving across open spaces unseen, what exactly is it for? Standing still and watching is pretty useful, as is cloaked hacking, but the main use of a cloak is for wide flanking. It just feels a bit poor at it's job at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I don't think its massively underpowered or anything, just a bit.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6307	Posted - 2015.02.03 01:41:00 - [52] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: The shimmer is just right. I sometimes catch a scout's shimmer out of the corner of my eye, only to lose them when I turn and scan for them with my cross-hair. Most of the time I catch a cloaked scout's shimmer, they're moving very stupidly, across a wide open space in dark lighting. That's exactly as it should be. I appreciate your opinion, and you could be right. It's just that it feels a bit too common that I get spotted. I don't think you should be able to run right infront of someone without being seen, but quite often I'll be a good way away, trying to stay around or beyond my opponent's peripheral vision so as not to be seen, and yet I still get spotted. This combined with hearing a lot of people declare that they have stopped using cloaks, makes me feel that they could do with less shimmer. If the cloak isn't for moving across open spaces unseen, what exactly is it for? Standing still and watching is pretty useful, as is cloaked hacking, but the main use of a cloak is for wide flanking. It just feels a bit poor at it's job at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I don't think its massively underpowered or anything, just a bit. Your assessment is spot on, Varoth. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Samantha Hunyz Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2015.02.03 05:46:00 - [53] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: The shimmer is just right. I sometimes catch a scout's shimmer out of the corner of my eye, only to lose them when I turn and scan for them with my cross-hair. Most of the time I catch a cloaked scout's shimmer, they're moving very stupidly, across a wide open space in dark lighting. That's exactly as it should be. I appreciate your opinion, and you could be right. It's just that it feels a bit too common that I get spotted. I don't think you should be able to run right infront of someone without being seen, but quite often I'll be a good way away, trying to stay around or beyond my opponent's peripheral vision so as not to be seen, and yet I still get spotted. This combined with hearing a lot of people declare that they have stopped using cloaks, makes me feel that they could do with less shimmer. If the cloak isn't for moving across open spaces unseen, what exactly is it for? Standing still and watching is pretty useful, as is cloaked hacking, but the main use of a cloak is for wide flanking. It just feels a bit poor at it's job at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I don't think its massively underpowered or anything, just a bit. Your assessment is spot on, Varoth. Queue for Ambush, grab a sniper rifle and find a hillside. See that a cloaked unit from 200 meters (!) is as easy to spot as any other. This is the case in all but "bright light" settings. It shouldn't be. If cloak isn't supposed to be used for crossing open terrain, for what is it supposed to be used? I totally agree on this one. Those in my scout suit I use the cloak, once in a hide I tend to easily see and kill those blue glimmering trails. When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 833	Posted - 2015.02.03 05:57:00 - [54] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close. You are correct. It is a scout. And it can scout out different positions with its high speed, as well. Being a scout isn't defined by "How strong is my radar", because if it was, then anyone with enough EWAR modules would be a "scout". Being a scout includes higher mobility, lower profile, etc. To answer your question again, more succinctly, you can scout without being wholly dependent on your mini-map. You can also use your suit inherent speed and stamina bonuses to visually confirm enemies, and then escape without detection via your inherently reduced profile. TL:DR - There is more than one way to be a scout So what do u have against Cloaking range nerf removed. Also, a min Assault can run at 10.4 m/s and have a DB under 25. Therefore min Assault is just a tankier faster Scout? If the basis of the argument for restore the radar range of scouts while in the cloak is "The current system does not allow me to be a scout", then a faulty line of reasoning is what I have against the cloaking range nerf removed. As I mentioned earlier, the inherent bonuses that the scout suit receives allows you to scout in different ways. To address your comment about the Minmatar Assault, it is rather cherry picked. Yes, you have shown that you can put two Complex Kincats and two Complex profile dampeners on an Minmatar assault to try and copy the bonuses of a scout suit. This is a product of the fitting system in Dust. However, that proto Min Ass would still be out preformed by a scout with the same modules. You can brick tank a scout suit to emulate an assault suit. It will function like an assault suit (Or even better, in the case of some scouts). But that is a straw man argument. We're not debating the ability for other suits to copy the functions of a role different from their own. We're debating how damaging the cloak - as it stands - is to the ability of a scout to preform its duties. And my position of "Not very damaging, all things considered" still stands Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 852	Posted - 2015.02.03 06:33:00 - [55] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: If the basis of the argument for restore the radar range of scouts while in the cloak is "The current system does not allow me to be a scout", then a faulty line of reasoning is what I have against the cloaking range nerf removed. As I mentioned earlier, the inherent bonuses that the scout suit receives allows you to scout in different ways. To address your comment about the Minmatar Assault, it is rather cherry picked. Yes, you have shown that you can put two Complex Kincats and two Complex profile dampeners on an Minmatar assault to try and copy the bonuses of a scout suit. This is a product of the fitting system in Dust. However, that proto Min Ass would still be out preformed by a scout with the same modules. You can brick tank a scout suit to emulate an assault suit. It will function like an assault suit (Or even better, in the case of some scouts). But that is a straw man argument. We're not debating the ability for other suits to copy the functions of a role different from their own. We're debating how damaging the cloak - as it stands - is to the ability of a scout to preform its duties. And my position of "Not very damaging, all things considered" still stands The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies. If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning. Example: Assaults get a 25% reduction to weapons and grenades cpu/pg, well what if every weapon that was equipped on an assault, and fired would make the assault suit lose 85% of hp tank. I mean assaults are supposed to be good at killing right? It doesn't say that assaults need to be good at surviving. That's the current state of the cloak and the scout. It would be fine if scouts didn't get a bonus to the cloak,or if it was completely removed, because then it wouldn't be a balancing issue in terms of role bonuses, but it is. To address the disparity between the scout and assault. No, in no case of pure fitting capabilities, combat capabilities, and versatility, the assault will always win. The scout's ability to use passive scanning is also inferior to active scanners, so literally everyone is fine that the scout's role has been completely aborted in place of penalizing the real cause of disparity in the scout ranks, that being scouts benefiting from E-war even though said suit is mainly hp tanking. It's not an issue to the community anymore because the assault has been buffed enough so that hp tanking a scout is "inferior" to an assault suit's hp tank. All in all it doesn't really matter anymore, what's done is done, and there is very little chance that this will be revisited anytime soon so... GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1680	Posted - 2015.02.03 15:25:00 - [56] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close. You are correct. It is a scout. And it can scout out different positions with its high speed, as well. Being a scout isn't defined by "How strong is my radar", because if it was, then anyone with enough EWAR modules would be a "scout". Being a scout includes higher mobility, lower profile, etc. To answer your question again, more succinctly, you can scout without being wholly dependent on your mini-map. You can also use your suit inherent speed and stamina bonuses to visually confirm enemies, and then escape without detection via your inherently reduced profile. TL:DR - There is more than one way to be a scout So what do u have against Cloaking range nerf removed. Also, a min Assault can run at 10.4 m/s and have a DB under 25. Therefore min Assault is just a tankier faster Scout? If the basis of the argument for restore the radar range of scouts while in the cloak is "The current system does not allow me to be a scout", then a faulty line of reasoning is what I have against the cloaking range nerf removed. As I mentioned earlier, the inherent bonuses that the scout suit receives allows you to scout in different ways. To address your comment about the Minmatar Assault, it is rather cherry picked. Yes, you have shown that you can put two Complex Kincats and two Complex profile dampeners on an Minmatar assault to try and copy the bonuses of a scout suit. This is a product of the fitting system in Dust. However, that proto Min Ass would still be out preformed by a scout with the same modules. You can brick tank a scout suit to emulate an assault suit. It will function like an assault suit (Or even better, in the case of some scouts). But that is a straw man argument. We're not debating the ability for other suits to copy the functions of a role different from their own. We're debating how damaging the cloak - as it stands - is to the ability of a scout to preform its duties. And my position of "Not very damaging, all things considered" still stands Look- When I use Precision enhancers and such- It costs me a shield extender (HP) so I depend on cloak to keep me from being seen in my 250 ehp flimsy scout suit but wait- I turn the cloak on and now my scan range is 5m. What did I gain? Turn the cloak off and I die trying to get scans, turn it on and I survive but I just wasted all my precision enhancers. This is one of the top reasons you see 453 shield caldari scouts, 223 shield gallante scouts, and 343 shield minmatar scouts. The Amarr doesn't really need a cloak, it's got tank. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1680	Posted - 2015.02.03 15:26:00 - [57] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: If the basis of the argument for restore the radar range of scouts while in the cloak is "The current system does not allow me to be a scout", then a faulty line of reasoning is what I have against the cloaking range nerf removed. As I mentioned earlier, the inherent bonuses that the scout suit receives allows you to scout in different ways. To address your comment about the Minmatar Assault, it is rather cherry picked. Yes, you have shown that you can put two Complex Kincats and two Complex profile dampeners on an Minmatar assault to try and copy the bonuses of a scout suit. This is a product of the fitting system in Dust. However, that proto Min Ass would still be out preformed by a scout with the same modules. You can brick tank a scout suit to emulate an assault suit. It will function like an assault suit (Or even better, in the case of some scouts). But that is a straw man argument. We're not debating the ability for other suits to copy the functions of a role different from their own. We're debating how damaging the cloak - as it stands - is to the ability of a scout to preform its duties. And my position of "Not very damaging, all things considered" still stands The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies. If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning. Example: Assaults get a 25% reduction to weapons and grenades cpu/pg, well what if every weapon that was equipped on an assault, and fired would make the assault suit lose 85% of hp tank. I mean assaults are supposed to be good at killing right? It doesn't say that assaults need to be good at surviving. That's the current state of the cloak and the scout. It would be fine if scouts didn't get a bonus to the cloak,or if it was completely removed, because then it wouldn't be a balancing issue in terms of role bonuses, but it is. To address the disparity between the scout and assault. No, in no case of pure fitting capabilities, combat capabilities, and versatility, the assault will always win. The scout's ability to use passive scanning is also inferior to active scanners, so literally everyone is fine that the scout's role has been completely aborted in place of penalizing the real cause of disparity in the scout ranks, that being scouts benefiting from E-war even though said suit is mainly hp tanking. It's not an issue to the community anymore because the assault has been buffed enough so that hp tanking a scout is "inferior" to an assault suit's hp tank. All in all it doesn't really matter anymore, what's done is done, and there is very little chance that this will be revisited anytime soon so... +10000. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 833	Posted - 2015.02.03 16:06:00 - [58] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies.If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning. Example: Assaults get a 25% reduction to weapons and grenades cpu/pg, well what if every weapon that was equipped on an assault, and fired would make the assault suit lose 85% of hp tank. I mean assaults are supposed to be good at killing right? It doesn't say that assaults need to be good at surviving. That's the current state of the cloak and the scout. It would be fine if scouts didn't get a bonus to the cloak,or if it was completely removed, because then it wouldn't be a balancing issue in terms of role bonuses, but it is. To address the disparity between the scout and assault. No, in no case of pure fitting capabilities, combat capabilities, and versatility, the assault will always win. The scout's ability to use passive scanning is also inferior to active scanners, so literally everyone is fine that the scout's role has been completely aborted in place of penalizing the real cause of disparity in the scout ranks, that being scouts benefiting from E-war even though said suit is mainly hp tanking. It's not an issue to the community anymore because the assault has been buffed enough so that hp tanking a scout is "inferior" to an assault suit's hp tank. All in all it doesn't really matter anymore, what's done is done, and there is very little chance that this will be revisited anytime soon so... The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies. I find this to be inaccurate, largely due to the arguments that "Eyes are OP", and "You should improve your situational awareness if you're getting ganked by scouts" posed by cloak users. As I mentioned earlier, being a scout is not bounded by how strong your radar is. All of the advice given to non-cloak users before the nerf was implemented should be applicable to cloak users, especially because the radar of a scout using a cloak is similar to the radar of every other suit in the game all of the time. If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning. I will address this point, and your example here. The cloak is essentially an active module. Its use, and associated penalties, is a choice. If you are about to enter a high traffic area, then you have to chose to either rely on your inherent suit bonuses or your cloak field to move through the area. Both options have their merits and virtues, as well as their own issues. I agree that the way the delay works should be fixed, because it feels clunky. The range nerf, in its intent, is perfectly fine. I'm certainly not against tweaking numbers on the range nerf, however. The fact that using a cloak field is an active choice making your example a false equivalence - besides for the fact that it is a poorly constructed analogy anyway. The intent of the cloak field is to be a defensive, positioning tool. The intent of a weapon is to be an offensive tool. Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1680	Posted - 2015.02.03 16:22:00 - [59] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies.If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning. Example: Assaults get a 25% reduction to weapons and grenades cpu/pg, well what if every weapon that was equipped on an assault, and fired would make the assault suit lose 85% of hp tank. I mean assaults are supposed to be good at killing right? It doesn't say that assaults need to be good at surviving. That's the current state of the cloak and the scout. It would be fine if scouts didn't get a bonus to the cloak,or if it was completely removed, because then it wouldn't be a balancing issue in terms of role bonuses, but it is. To address the disparity between the scout and assault. No, in no case of pure fitting capabilities, combat capabilities, and versatility, the assault will always win. The scout's ability to use passive scanning is also inferior to active scanners, so literally everyone is fine that the scout's role has been completely aborted in place of penalizing the real cause of disparity in the scout ranks, that being scouts benefiting from E-war even though said suit is mainly hp tanking. It's not an issue to the community anymore because the assault has been buffed enough so that hp tanking a scout is "inferior" to an assault suit's hp tank. All in all it doesn't really matter anymore, what's done is done, and there is very little chance that this will be revisited anytime soon so... The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies. I find this to be inaccurate, largely due to the arguments that "Eyes are OP", and "You should improve your situational awareness if you're getting ganked by scouts" posed by cloak users. As I mentioned earlier, being a scout is not bounded by how strong your radar is. All of the advice given to non-cloak users before the nerf was implemented should be applicable to cloak users, especially because the radar of a scout using a cloak is similar to the radar of every other suit in the game all of the time. If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning. I will address this point, and your example here. The cloak is essentially an active module. Its use, and associated penalties, is a choice. If you are about to enter a high traffic area, then you have to chose to either rely on your inherent suit bonuses or your cloak field to move through the area. Both options have their merits and virtues, as well as their own issues. I agree that the way the delay works should be fixed, because it feels clunky. The range nerf, in its intent, is perfectly fine. I'm certainly not against tweaking numbers on the range nerf, however. The fact that using a cloak field is an active choice making your example a false equivalence - besides for the fact that it is a poorly constructed analogy anyway. The intent of the cloak field is to be a defensive, positioning tool. The intent of a weapon is to be an offensive tool. I don't see why Assaults don't get ganked by heavies but scouts do? There have been numerous times where a heavy has been like 7m behind me and I have no clue. It's called a scout suit for a reason. It's suppose to be king of ewar yet it is not and it have bonuses to a piece of equipment that penalizes their scouting role. Also-no that is completely false, my freking heavy has a better ewar than a scout that is cloaked. Also- again if scouts had ewar while cloaked... doesn't that mean they are doing their role?? They are hard to detect except they know where everything is. Rattati called this a double threat so he removed the ewar while cloaked but if you think about it, a heavy is a dual threat too. Heavies has 2-3 times the hp of medium suits and have the highest DPS weapon in the game.This allows them to be proficient at point defense, no other suit is as good as the heavy at its role. Now for scouts, almost any suit except heavies can be boss mode ewar. Not to mention the the gallante logi is possibly the best scout out there. Also- in the scout suits circumstance- its role is soley based on the fact that it has a strong radar. You're so called "Eyes are OP" shouldn't really apply to the scout. It's Radar should be OP. the way you design scout- any suit can do it even a heavy. You go to a point and you look around for enemies- that role is no specific to the scout. in battle more coming soon Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 833	Posted - 2015.02.03 17:04:00 - [60] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: I don't see why Assaults don't get ganked by heavies but scouts do? There have been numerous times where a heavy has been like 7m behind me and I have no clue. It's called a scout suit for a reason. It's suppose to be king of ewar yet it is not and it have bonuses to a piece of equipment that penalizes their scouting role. Also-no that is completely false, my freking heavy has a better ewar than a scout that is cloaked. Also- again if scouts had ewar while cloaked... doesn't that mean they are doing their role?? They are hard to detect except they know where everything is. Rattati called this a double threat so he removed the ewar while cloaked but if you think about it, a heavy is a dual threat too. Heavies has 2-3 times the hp of medium suits and have the highest DPS weapon in the game.This allows them to be proficient at point defense, no other suit is as good as the heavy at its role. Now for scouts, almost any suit except heavies can be boss mode ewar. Not to mention the the gallante logi is possibly the best scout out there. Also- in the scout suits circumstance- its role is soley based on the fact that it has a strong radar.You're so called "Eyes are OP" shouldn't really apply to the scout. It's Radar should be OP. the way you design scout- any suit can do it even a heavy. You go to a point and you look around for enemies- that role is no specific to the scout. in battle more coming soon Between: "Scouts [should be] hard to detect, except they know where everything is..." (Bold) "...In the scout suit's circumstance - its role is solely based on the fact that is has a strong radar..." (Bold) "Your so called 'Eyes are OP' shouldn't really apply to scouts..." (Bold) I can see that game balance is not what you are looking for. No suit can have the "Boss mode" Ewar that a scout can have unless it is gimped. You cannot compare a competitive scout fitting to a gimped assault fitting and call them equal. Gal Logis using an active scanner is also an active module of sorts, with its own draw backs. Finally, yes! You can use any suit to fill any role you want. Welcome to Dust514. However, some suits fulfill these roles better than others. There is no way to use a heavy suit as an effective scout. There are ways to build a Min Assault into a modest scout. That is one of the design goals of the fitting system - options and choice. Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm

Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1680	Posted - 2015.02.03 18:07:00 - [61] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: I don't see why Assaults don't get ganked by heavies but scouts do? There have been numerous times where a heavy has been like 7m behind me and I have no clue. It's called a scout suit for a reason. It's suppose to be king of ewar yet it is not and it have bonuses to a piece of equipment that penalizes their scouting role. Also-no that is completely false, my freking heavy has a better ewar than a scout that is cloaked. Also- again if scouts had ewar while cloaked... doesn't that mean they are doing their role?? They are hard to detect except they know where everything is. Rattati called this a double threat so he removed the ewar while cloaked but if you think about it, a heavy is a dual threat too. Heavies has 2-3 times the hp of medium suits and have the highest DPS weapon in the game.This allows them to be proficient at point defense, no other suit is as good as the heavy at its role. Now for scouts, almost any suit except heavies can be boss mode ewar. Not to mention the the gallante logi is possibly the best scout out there. Also- in the scout suits circumstance- its role is soley based on the fact that it has a strong radar.You're so called "Eyes are OP" shouldn't really apply to the scout. It's Radar should be OP. the way you design scout- any suit can do it even a heavy. You go to a point and you look around for enemies- that role is no specific to the scout. in battle more coming soon Between: "Scouts [should be] hard to detect, except they know where everything is..." (Bold) "...In the scout suit's circumstance - its role is solely based on the fact that is has a strong radar..." (Bold) "Your so called 'Eyes are OP' shouldn't really apply to scouts..." (Bold) I can see that game balance is not what you are looking for. No suit can have the "Boss mode" Ewar that a scout can have unless it is gimped. You cannot compare a competitive scout fitting to a gimped assault fitting and call them equal. Gal Logis using an active scanner is also an active module of sorts, with its own draw backs. Finally, yes! You can use any suit to fill any role you want. Welcome to Dust514. However, some suits fulfill these roles better than others. There is no way to use a heavy suit as an effective scout. There are ways to build a Min Assault into a modest scout. That is one of the design goals of the fitting system - options and choice. How is a assault with ewar gimmped? A scout with ewar is gimmped. Low hp-can't scan while cloaked so makes all ewar modules pointless-and without cloak survivable. To you, this isn't about balanced, it's about you having your FOTM assault/heavy or what ever you are be the only thing viable. BTW- assaults have two extra module high/low which with ewar modules put them at scout level. Therefore- Assault=scout but Assault HP>Scout. . A scout running ewar modules is a the ugly duckling out. P.S. if you do PC, you know almost every PC there is a gal logi with 4 active scanners that can keep the team scanned all match. The only ewar module that is worth a damn on a scout is dampening. Anyway, forget everything- give me one good, and I mean really good reason with an explanation to why a lot of scouts don't run cloak anymore and the ones that do usually are brick tanked? BTW- don't say this is false because I for a fact know it is true. The Assault can litterally do everything a scout can do while maintaining higher HP. No way in hell is a Assault suit running ewar modules gimmped. The only thing a assault can't do is fit a cloak but he'll, cloak is so sh*t you might as well remove it from the game. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 794	Posted - 2015.02.03 18:41:00 - [62] - Quote As far a i can tell sir dukey your main gripe is about not being allowed to scan while being invisible. Everything you are lametning over you can sill do but not at the same time. You cant passive scan and cloak a the same time. You can however -passive scan to select a target, - turn on your cloak to get close, (ewar invisible, barely a shimmer unless the target looks right at you) - switch to the weapon of choice to dispach your foe. You have to turn it off and on to ge the full benifit of your suit. Otherwise the thread is more about wanting to have all of the ewar advantages and zero ewar drawbacks 100% of the time. Which is frankly speaking, BS. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 855	Posted - 2015.02.03 20:36:00 - [63] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: I find this to be inaccurate, largely due to the arguments that "Eyes are OP", and "You should improve your situational awareness if you're getting ganked by scouts" posed by cloak users. As I mentioned earlier, being a scout is not bounded by how strong your radar is. All of the advice given to non-cloak users before the nerf was implemented should be applicable to cloak users, especially because the radar of a scout using a cloak is similar to the radar of every other suit in the game all of the time. I will address this point, and your example here. The cloak is essentially an active module. Its use, and associated penalties, is a choice. If you are about to enter a high traffic area, then you have to chose to either rely on your inherent suit bonuses or your cloak field to move through the area. Both options have their merits and virtues, as well as their own issues. I agree that the way the delay works should be fixed, because it feels clunky. The range nerf, in its intent, is perfectly fine. I'm certainly not against tweaking numbers on the range nerf, however. The fact that using a cloak field is an active choice making your example a false equivalence - besides for the fact that it is a poorly constructed analogy anyway. The intent of the cloak field is to be a defensive, positioning tool. The intent of a weapon is to be an offensive tool. You're right it is a poorly constructed analogy, I forgot to add a movement speed reduction on top of it all. The argument can be made that "firing your weapon is a choice, you shouldn't be able to just shoot someone without warning it's OP," but that's beside the point. The cloak is meant to be used to avoid detection, this is it's fundamental function. The delay alone is enough to prevent any combat capabilities that a scout may have, beyond that, range to passive scans is currently minuscule to begin with, so I don't know what dystopian society you think the current meta will become if a scout can scan a heavy, and maybe an assault at 30m while cloaked, if that. The cloak is the only piece of equipment that has any penalties to it, it is the only piece of equipment that penalizes a suit for it's use. Every other form of play style has absolutely no penalties, not trade-offs, penalties. If someone equips a weapon there is a guarantee that he will be able to shoot people, if someone stack hp there is a guarantee that they will not die as quickly. The only guarantee that the cloak provides is "enemies may or may not be able to see you, at the price of all the high slots you dedicated to precision, and lows to range." And no the radar while cloaked is nothing like the radar of other suits other suits can still scan people with base scans on say an assault. There is no guarantee of anything with the cloak, there's 50-50 chance you'll be seen, and if you are seen there is a penalty that will not allow you to defend yourself for 5 seconds, which is an exponentially larger value than the current TTK. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 453	Posted - 2015.02.03 20:43:00 - [64] - Quote The only thing cloak needs is fixing the sprinting glitch that cancels the switch of equipment. Also the delay from decloaking should be about decloaking, right now you get the delay when changing from cloak to anything whether you were cloaked or not. This is really awful. No visibility buff needed, no ewar buff needed. Just make it work as intended and the cloak is fine as is.
Michael Epic Bragian Order Amarr Empire 417	Posted - 2015.02.03 20:45:00 - [65] - Quote Are you really complaining you're not invisible enough so you can sneak up on people with no risks or danger to shoot them in the back? Seriously? The cloak is a wuss tool.
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 856	Posted - 2015.02.03 21:50:00 - [66] - Quote Michael Epic wrote: Are you really complaining you're not invisible enough so you can sneak up on people with no risks or danger to shoot them in the back? Seriously? The cloak is a wuss tool. It's still in the game, it should be balanced right. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 834	Posted - 2015.02.04 00:08:00 - [67] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: How is a assault with ewar gimmped? A scout with ewar is gimmped. Low hp-can't scan while cloaked so makes all ewar modules pointless-and without cloak survivable. To you, this isn't about balanced, it's about you having your FOTM assault/heavy or what ever you are be the only thing viable. BTW- assaults have two extra module high/low which with ewar modules put them at scout level. Therefore- Assault=scout but Assault HP>Scout. . A scout running ewar modules is a the ugly duckling out. P.S. if you do PC, you know almost every PC there is a gal logi with 4 active scanners that can keep the team scanned all match. The only ewar module that is worth a damn on a scout is dampening. Anyway, forget everything- give me one good, and I mean really good reason with an explanation to why a lot of scouts don't run cloak anymore and the ones that do usually are brick tanked? BTW- don't say this is false because I for a fact know it is true. The Assault can litterally do everything a scout can do while maintaining higher HP. No way in hell is a Assault suit running ewar modules gimmped. The only thing a assault can't do is fit a cloak but he'll, cloak is so sh*t you might as well remove it from the game. The Cloak and the scout circumstance is equivalent to if a Gallante Logistics suit is using a Scanner- everybody on the map should know where he is. It is only fair. If when you are a scout you sacrifice all your scan range for be harder to detect, any suit using an active scanner should sacrifice it's detection to detect others. If any suit is using a repair tool- it should sacrifice it's own Armor repair per sec to repair another suit. If a dropsuit is using a a nanohive, the suit should sacrifice secondary ammo for primary ammo. Why is it only equipment with drawbacks is the cloak? An Assault with EWAR is not gimped. Nowhere in my post did I say that. I claimed that an Assault that tried to match the abilities of a scout would need to gimp its suit to do so. Case and Point: I run a Complex dampener on all of my suits, granting me some measure of scan protection. This puts my Scan Profile at 35, I believe (Though this is off of the top of my head). However, if I tried to get down to 25 dB and 10.40m/s, I would need to get a proto Min Assault and fill all of my low slots with Kincat and Damps to achieve something that scouts can do with far less module cost. I was arguing that there are far more competitive Min Assault builds than that, and that the aforementioned fitting was "gimped" by comparison. Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time. As for my motives, I don't have any. I just disagree with your faulty argument for removing the nerf, is all. I'm fine with fixing the numbers, or the mechanics of engaging and disengaging the cloak, but the spirit of the nerf is fine to me. Finally, you sacrifice your scan range optionally to be both visually and electronically harder to detect. This is inline with dampening being more rewarding than scanning, by and large. This bonus is just not free of cost. Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6329	Posted - 2015.02.04 00:18:00 - [68] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time. Passive scans are far less competitive than they used to be; EWAR Scouts no longer play a part in PC. The very best an AM Scout can offer is 44 meters at 23 dB; the very best a CA Scout can offer is 58 meters at 26 dB. PS: Assault Scan Profile with one Complex Dampener is 30 dB. Two is 24 dB. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 835	Posted - 2015.02.04 00:21:00 - [69] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: You're right it is a poorly constructed analogy, I forgot to add a movement speed reduction on top of it all. The argument can be made that "firing your weapon is a choice, you shouldn't be able to just shoot someone without warning it's OP," but that's beside the point. The cloak is meant to be used to avoid detection, this is it's fundamental function. The delay alone is enough to prevent any combat capabilities that a scout may have, beyond that, range to passive scans is currently minuscule to begin with, so I don't know what dystopian society you think the current meta will become if a scout can scan a heavy, and maybe an assault at 30m while cloaked, if that. The cloak is the only piece of equipment that has any penalties to it, it is the only piece of equipment that penalizes a suit for it's use. Every other form of play style has absolutely no penalties, not trade-offs, penalties. If someone equips a weapon there is a guarantee that he will be able to shoot people, if someone were to stack hp there is a guarantee that they will not die as quickly. The only guarantee that the cloak provides is "enemies may or may not be able to see you, at the price of all the high slots you dedicated to precision, and lows to range." And no the radar while cloaked is nothing like the radar of other suits other suits can still scan people with base scans on say an assault. There is no guarantee of anything with the cloak, there's 50-50 chance you'll be seen, and if you are seen there is a penalty that will not allow you to defend yourself for 5 seconds, which is an exponentially larger value than the current TTK. Your argument about the cloak being the only piece of equipment to have a penalty is not a good comparison. The cloak is the only piece of equipment of its kind. It is the only active module that effects a statistic - in this case, scan profile - of a dropsuit, at will (essentially). Of course no other piece of equipment has the downsides of the cloak. No other piece of equipment works like a cloak. Secondly, in general, if you want to compare the cloak to anything it has to be equipment - not weapons or modules. Weapons and modules do not function in the same way that equipment does at all: the bonuses they confer are all passive. So you should pick a more appropriate object to compare cloaks too. Finally, there is absolutely a binary nature of being seen: You are either seen or not. Using a cloak tips the scale further in the direction of "not being seen". So its certainly not 50/50. It is situational. To complain about a lack of a guarantee would be to ignore the active scanner - there is no guarantee that you will scan anything. The advantages you get from activating your cloak field, the change to avoid damage by avoiding detection, secure advantageous positioning, etc - are much larger than the advantages that you get from using a scanner. There is just a cost with such large advantages. To be clear, I'm not against tweaking the numbers for the range penalty. Nor am I against fixing clunky mechanics. But the basis of Sir Dukey's argument is weak, and all of the "advice" offered to non-scouts before the nerf can be applied to scouts now Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 835	Posted - 2015.02.04 00:21:00 - [70] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time. Passive scans are far less competitive than they used to be; EWAR Scouts no longer play a part in PC. The very best an AM Scout can offer is 44 meters at 23 dB; the very best a CA Scout can offer is 58 meters at 26 dB. The only realistic form of competitive recon available is that provided by proto Active Scanners; the GA Logi is presently the best recon unit in the game. PS: Assault Scan Profile with one Complex Dampener is 30 dB. Two is 24 dB. Thanks for the info - sorry for my misinformation Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6331	Posted - 2015.02.04 00:22:00 - [71] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Thanks for the info - sorry for my misinformation NP. You're doing good work here. Just wanted to clear that tidbit up. o7 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1682	Posted - 2015.02.04 00:24:00 - [72] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: How is a assault with ewar gimmped? A scout with ewar is gimmped. Low hp-can't scan while cloaked so makes all ewar modules pointless-and without cloak survivable. To you, this isn't about balanced, it's about you having your FOTM assault/heavy or what ever you are be the only thing viable. BTW- assaults have two extra module high/low which with ewar modules put them at scout level. Therefore- Assault=scout but Assault HP>Scout. . A scout running ewar modules is a the ugly duckling out. P.S. if you do PC, you know almost every PC there is a gal logi with 4 active scanners that can keep the team scanned all match. The only ewar module that is worth a damn on a scout is dampening. Anyway, forget everything- give me one good, and I mean really good reason with an explanation to why a lot of scouts don't run cloak anymore and the ones that do usually are brick tanked? BTW- don't say this is false because I for a fact know it is true. The Assault can litterally do everything a scout can do while maintaining higher HP. No way in hell is a Assault suit running ewar modules gimmped. The only thing a assault can't do is fit a cloak but he'll, cloak is so sh*t you might as well remove it from the game. The Cloak and the scout circumstance is equivalent to if a Gallante Logistics suit is using a Scanner- everybody on the map should know where he is. It is only fair. If when you are a scout you sacrifice all your scan range for be harder to detect, any suit using an active scanner should sacrifice it's detection to detect others. If any suit is using a repair tool- it should sacrifice it's own Armor repair per sec to repair another suit. If a dropsuit is using a a nanohive, the suit should sacrifice secondary ammo for primary ammo. Why is it only equipment with drawbacks is the cloak? An Assault with EWAR is not gimped. Nowhere in my post did I say that. I claimed that an Assault that tried to match the abilities of a scout would need to gimp its suit to do so. Case and Point: I run a Complex dampener on all of my suits, granting me some measure of scan protection. This puts my Scan Profile at 35, I believe (Though this is off of the top of my head). However, if I tried to get down to 25 dB and 10.40m/s, I would need to get a proto Min Assault and fill all of my low slots with Kincat and Damps to achieve something that scouts can do with far less module cost. I was arguing that there are far more competitive Min Assault builds than that, and that the aforementioned fitting was "gimped" by comparison. Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time. As for my motives, I don't have any. I just disagree with your faulty argument for removing the nerf, is all. I'm fine with fixing the numbers, or the mechanics of engaging and disengaging the cloak, but the spirit of the nerf is fine to me. Finally, you sacrifice your scan range optionally to be both visually and electronically harder to detect. This is inline with dampening being more rewarding than scanning, by and large. This bonus is just not free of cost. False because is PC there is a Gal logi- all scouts are slayers-hackers-uplink destroyers. No scout in PC does that anymore every since the nerfs. Also Passive scans only available to one squad unlike Active scans. Also- It's a scan Gal logi with all scanners that he cycles. There is a video on youtube somewhere of a guy doing this. And again, why is the cloak the only piece of equipment with a down side? Let's balance it according to other equipment or nerf other equipment to have trade offs. Also, if you think people run proto cloaks- they don't due to massive fitting costs therefore the most we run are advanced which offers 5% dampeneing. WOWW, I'm 1.75 DB LOWER THAN NORMAL! 1.75 db isn't anything. Also- since your argument is completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to keep it the way it is. Edit: yes it's Dust 514 where you can do anything but there is no reason for suits not intended for Ewar to be better at ewar than the suit intended for it. Remember how Assault used to cry that Scouts are taking over their role because scouts can tank so much. Well, assaults are taking over scout role because Assault suit can literally do what scouts do and even be better than scouts in some circumstances. For example, the Min Assault can actually have more dampening (24 DB) and run 10.4 m/s while a Min scout can only get (26 DB) and run 10.4 m/s . Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 836	Posted - 2015.02.04 00:32:00 - [73] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: False because is PC there is a Gal logi- all scouts are slayers-hackers-uplink destroyers. No scout in PC does that anymore every since the nerfs. Also Passive scans only available to one squad unlike Active scans. Also- It's a scan Gal logi with all scanners that he cycles. There is a video on youtube somewhere of a guy doing this. And again, why is the cloak the only piece of equipment with a down side? Let's balance it according to other equipment or nerf other equipment to have trade offs. Also, if you think people run proto cloaks- they don't due to massive fitting costs therefore the most we run are advanced which offers 5% dampeneing. WOWW, I'm 1.75 DB LOWER THAN NORMAL! 1.75 db isn't anything. Also- since your argument is completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to keep it the way it is. My argument is not any more opinion based than anything else said in this article. The debate is: "Is the range nerf applied to scouts appropriate?" Your answer to that question is: "No, it is not appropriate. Scouts lose their ability to scout with this nerf." My answer to that question is: "Yes, it is appropriate. Scouts are not defined by their radar strength." Your supporting evidence is that scouts should be able to cloak and have radar superiority, and that scouts should not have to rely on visual situational awareness as much as other suits. My supporting evidence is that scouts have other bonuses that allow them to scout in other ways - visually, for example - which are unaffected by the range nerf. Furthermore, scouts should take their own advice, and no suit should have the ability to "rely less on visual situational awareness" based on their class. This is entirely an opinion based discussion. I just think your argument is flawed, and your supporting points are not in the name of balance. And, to bring things full circle: Since your argument is also completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to change the way things are. Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1682	Posted - 2015.02.04 00:59:00 - [74] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: False because is PC there is a Gal logi- all scouts are slayers-hackers-uplink destroyers. No scout in PC does that anymore every since the nerfs. Also Passive scans only available to one squad unlike Active scans. Also- It's a scan Gal logi with all scanners that he cycles. There is a video on youtube somewhere of a guy doing this. And again, why is the cloak the only piece of equipment with a down side? Let's balance it according to other equipment or nerf other equipment to have trade offs. Also, if you think people run proto cloaks- they don't due to massive fitting costs therefore the most we run are advanced which offers 5% dampeneing. WOWW, I'm 1.75 DB LOWER THAN NORMAL! 1.75 db isn't anything. Also- since your argument is completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to keep it the way it is. My argument is not any more opinion based than anything else said in this article. The debate is: "Is the range nerf applied to scouts appropriate?" Your answer to that question is: "No, it is not appropriate. Scouts lose their ability to scout with this nerf." My answer to that question is: "Yes, it is appropriate. Scouts are not defined by their radar strength." Your supporting evidence is that scouts should be able to cloak and have radar superiority, and that scouts should not have to rely on visual situational awareness as much as other suits. My supporting evidence is that scouts have other bonuses that allow them to scout in other ways - visually, for example - which are unaffected by the range nerf. Furthermore, scouts should take their own advice, and no suit should have the ability to "rely less on visual situational awareness" based on their class. This is entirely an opinion based discussion. I just think your argument is flawed, and your supporting points are not in the name of balance. And, to bring things full circle: Since your argument is also completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to change the way things are. There really was no good reason to take away the passives while cloaked in the first place other than Rattati thought so. Also, Assaults shouldn't be good as scouts at EWAR and radar. The whole point of the scout is to have strong radar. Everyone has eyes, we skilled into scout suits to have strong radar yet we don't. Assaults are taking over Scout role. There is nothing special about scout anymore. The least CCP can do is give back the passives while cloaked to give us back some incentive to use ewar modules and be paperthin. Yes it's Dust 514 where you can do anything but there is no reason for suits not intended for Ewar to be better at ewar than the suit intended for it. Remember how Assault used to cry that Scouts are taking over their role because scouts can tank so much. Well, assaults are taking over scout role because Assault suit can literally do what scouts do and even be better than scouts in some circumstances. For example, the Min Assault can actually have more dampening (24 DB) and run 10.4 m/s while a Min scout can only get (26 DB) and run 10.4 m/s . Also-,your argument is solely revenge based. "Eyes are OP." When Scouts said this, CCP still buffed Assaults like hell, they got more slots and more HP. And again, everyone has eyes, what makes the scout special? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6333	Posted - 2015.02.04 02:10:00 - [75] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: There really was no good reason to take away the passives while cloaked in the first place other than Rattati thought so. Actually, a pre-1.8 Scout named Haerr came up with the "submarine warfare" idea. At the time, Scouts were overperforming, Assault Lite was still a very real problem, and shotgun efficiency (kills / spawn) had dedicated shotgunners worried about over-correction. Rattati wasn't the only one who thought this a good idea. It's all in the Barbershop. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8331	Posted - 2015.02.04 02:25:00 - [76] - Quote Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering... What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts". A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot. Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing... The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization. EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of? Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6333	Posted - 2015.02.04 02:34:00 - [77] - Quote Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8332	Posted - 2015.02.04 02:56:00 - [78] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm sorry that a few the guys were rude to you, Aeon. They're a tough crowd at times, but they know their knives and they mean well. In hindsight, I should've seen it coming; should've advised you in advance to bring thick skin. Either way, wish you had stuck with it. It was a fun experiment. -Shrug- Maybe you guys should try being on the receiving end as an Assault sometime. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6335	Posted - 2015.02.04 03:04:00 - [79] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm sorry that a few the guys were rude to you, Aeon. They're a tough crowd at times, but they know their knives and they mean well. In hindsight, I should've seen it coming; should've advised you in advance to bring thick skin. Either way, wish you had stuck with it. It was a fun experiment. -Shrug- Maybe you guys should try being on the receiving end as an Assault sometime. Pretty much everyone there but me has one. If you count the MN Assault as an Assault :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8335	Posted - 2015.02.04 03:06:00 - [80] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm sorry that a few the guys were rude to you, Aeon. They're a tough crowd at times, but they know their knives and they mean well. In hindsight, I should've seen it coming; should've advised you in advance to bring thick skin. Either way, wish you had stuck with it. It was a fun experiment. -Shrug- Maybe you guys should try being on the receiving end as an Assault sometime. Everyone but me has one. If you count the MN Assault as an Assault :-) That's cool. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*

gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 856	Posted - 2015.02.04 03:08:00 - [81] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Your argument about the cloak being the only piece of equipment to have a penalty is not a good comparison. The cloak is the only piece of equipment of its kind. It is the only active module that effects a statistic - in this case, scan profile - of a dropsuit, at will (essentially). Of course no other piece of equipment has the downsides of the cloak. No other piece of equipment works like a cloak. Secondly, in general, if you want to compare the cloak to anything it has to be equipment - not weapons or modules. Weapons and modules do not function in the same way that equipment does at all: the bonuses they confer are all passive. So you should pick a more appropriate object to compare cloaks too. Finally, there is absolutely a binary nature of being seen: You are either seen or not. Using a cloak tips the scale further in the direction of "not being seen". So its certainly not 50/50. It is situational. To complain about a lack of a guarantee would be to ignore the active scanner - there is no guarantee that you will scan anything. The advantages you get from activating your cloak field, the change to avoid damage by avoiding detection, secure advantageous positioning, etc - are much larger than the advantages that you get from using a scanner. There is just a cost with such large advantages. The active scanner is also a piece an active module, which effects the scan range and precision of a suit. The role of an assault is to kill therefore it is given a bonus to weapons fittings, the role of a scout is to avoid detection enough to do stuff. They're the same thing because they both give role bonuses. It is most certainly 50-50 when enemies are present there is a 50-50 chance, the only time the cloak is useful is when there are enemies present. No Enemies=No reason to hide from enemies. With the Active Scanner there is a 100% chance you will no whether or not there are enemies present. Yes, that's a solid argument "being able to see 90% of the enemy team is much less useful than not being scanned/seen by enemies hurka durka." You might have well had said "shotguns are best at long ranges." There is no cost to the active scanner. I don't know what you consider an advantage, but if you think cloaks are an advantage what Divine Almighty Power do you consider the Active Scanner? GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
TritusX PH4NT0M5 212	Posted - 2015.02.04 03:14:00 - [82] - Quote When I first joined this game, I was told scouts were king of EWAR. So I went scout. At first I tried the Gallente scout on an alt, seemed fun, and I used small little frames with regs, codebreakers, and damps. Ran around with the militia shotgun for so long, no cloaks, and was a great time. Learned to sneak up on people, all of that good stuff. Damps kept me hidden, range and precison enhancers allowed me to see my enemy better. Then I discovered the cloak! What a wonderful tool! I can now effectively not die everytime I kill someone! Then I became a minja. And it got worse. Cloak delays when leaving it, I just stopped using it all together. These days, the only EWAR mod i run is a enh. damp to stay away from noob scanners. Forced Death
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 858	Posted - 2015.02.04 03:20:00 - [83] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering... What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts". A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot. Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing... The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization. EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of? The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for . The shimmer is a draw back but a necessary one. Yes, exactly a scout using nothing but E-war will never be as useful as an assault HP tanking, at least not in the current state of E-war. The fact that seeing 30m on a suit that has to sacrifice almost all their Hp capabilities, at least in a perfect world, is reason enough to remove the 85% reduction to range. Classifying scouts all into 1 playstyle is really bad reasoning, scouts can and should be able to perform other roles beyond just not being seen, and maybe seeing people. An assault that has no E-war equipped can still scan other suits from a decent distance, so that is a false comparison. That sentiment would not be shared, the one about being fine with the cloak because it's "unique," if there penalty to what your role bonus encouraged, honestly. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6339	Posted - 2015.02.04 03:24:00 - [84] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for . Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1686	Posted - 2015.02.04 03:26:00 - [85] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering... What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts". A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot. Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing... The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization. EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of? There is no point to precision if your range is like 7m. It's like a car, there is no point in big fuel tank if it is electric. You can't utilize precision with low range and you cant utilize big gas tank in a mostly electric car. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 859	Posted - 2015.02.04 03:27:00 - [86] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for . Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for? Off-color circle-jerkery GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6339	Posted - 2015.02.04 03:42:00 - [87] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for . Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for? Off-color circle-jerkery A curiously nondescript thing to "stand against". Off-topic, yes. On occasion. But off-color? Don't recall that. As for a circle-jerk, I'm afraid we argue over everything. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 859	Posted - 2015.02.04 04:05:00 - [88] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for . Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for? Off-color circle-jerkery A curiously nondescript thing to "stand against". Off-topic, yes. On occasion. But off-color? Don't recall that. As for a circle-jerk, I'm afraid we argue over everything. Don't worry about it. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 839	Posted - 2015.02.04 04:47:00 - [89] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: The active scanner is also an active module/piece of equipment, which effects the scan range and precision of a suit. The role of an assault is to kill therefore it is given a bonus to weapons fittings, the role of a scout is to avoid detection enough to do stuff. They're the same thing because they both give role bonuses. It is most certainly 50-50 when enemies are present there is a 50-50 chance, the only time the cloak is useful is when there are enemies present. No Enemies=No reason to hide from enemies. With the Active Scanner there is a 100% chance you will no whether or not there are enemies present. Yes, that's a solid argument "being able to see 90% of the enemy team is much less useful than not being scanned/seen by enemies hurka durka." You might have well had said "shotguns are best at long ranges." There is no cost to the active scanner. I don't know what you consider an advantage, but if you think cloaks are an advantage what Divine Almighty Power do you consider the Active Scanner? The active scanner does not effect the scan range and precision of a suit, because it is one-directional while the suit's native scans are omni-directional. However, I understand that my problem with your statement can be considered one of semantics, so I will concede that an active scanner can be classified in the same way as a cloak field. The role of a scout is to visual and electronically confirm targets, and assassinate said targets by closing the distance quickly. Scouts get a bonus to complete all of these jobs. "Avoiding Detection" can be done in more ways than one. By definition of "being harder to see", being detected while using a cloak field is not a 50/50 probability event. If you are "harder to see", then then you are more likely to go unseen than to be detected. So, the ratio could be something like 60/40 or 90/10. Just anything greater than 50/50. The cloak can be used usefully when there are no enemies present - it can be used preemptively, for example. If you notice a suit within your 40m scan range, you can cloak before they see you and plan your route around - or behind - their position. It is a defensive and positional tool. Only one of those descriptors (defensive) requires enemy presence You are correct in saying that "When using the active scanner, you are 100% sure whether or not enemies are present". However, the information that "there are no enemies currently in the 90 degree (or less) field of view that you have" is not very powerful information. For all you know, the enemy could be there just a second after you scanned and you could be walking into a trap. Further more, the active scanner has a chance to fail even when someone is inside its radius. So, you will know that someone is in your arc, but not know anything more than that. The active scanner does not have that failure. If you are standing still, you will never become more opaque because someone is looking in your direction. Active scanners are mostly likely "more powerful" - by which I mean more commonly used - than active cloaks because they are easy to use relative to the utility they provide. You can scan and help your team immediately. The cost to benefit ratio may be skewed, but that discussion would belong in a "Nerf active scanners" thread. Cloaks have a higher skill curve, a higher potential reward, and a higher trade off. Personally, I would rather be able to sneak up and kill a logi repping a heavy than know that there is a logi repping a heavy 20m in front of me. Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1688	Posted - 2015.02.04 04:54:00 - [90] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: The active scanner is also an active module/piece of equipment, which effects the scan range and precision of a suit. The role of an assault is to kill therefore it is given a bonus to weapons fittings, the role of a scout is to avoid detection enough to do stuff. They're the same thing because they both give role bonuses. It is most certainly 50-50 when enemies are present there is a 50-50 chance, the only time the cloak is useful is when there are enemies present. No Enemies=No reason to hide from enemies. With the Active Scanner there is a 100% chance you will no whether or not there are enemies present. Yes, that's a solid argument "being able to see 90% of the enemy team is much less useful than not being scanned/seen by enemies hurka durka." You might have well had said "shotguns are best at long ranges." There is no cost to the active scanner. I don't know what you consider an advantage, but if you think cloaks are an advantage what Divine Almighty Power do you consider the Active Scanner? The active scanner does not effect the scan range and precision of a suit, because it is one-directional while the suit's native scans are omni-directional. However, I understand that my problem with your statement can be considered one of semantics, so I will concede that an active scanner can be classified in the same way as a cloak field. The role of a scout is to visual and electronically confirm targets, and assassinate said targets by closing the distance quickly. Scouts get a bonus to complete all of these jobs. "Avoiding Detection" can be done in more ways than one. By definition of "being harder to see", being detected while using a cloak field is not a 50/50 probability event. If you are "harder to see", then then you are more likely to go unseen than to be detected. So, the ratio could be something like 60/40 or 90/10. Just anything greater than 50/50. The cloak can be used usefully when there are no enemies present - it can be used preemptively, for example. If you notice a suit within your 40m scan range, you can cloak before they see you and plan your route around - or behind - their position. It is a defensive and positional tool. Only one of those descriptors (defensive) requires enemy presence You are correct in saying that "When using the active scanner, you are 100% sure whether or not enemies are present". However, the information that "there are no enemies currently in the 90 degree (or less) field of view that you have" is not very powerful information. For all you know, the enemy could be there just a second after you scanned and you could be walking into a trap. Further more, the active scanner has a chance to fail even when someone is inside its radius. So, you will know that someone is in your arc, but not know anything more than that. The active scanner does not have that failure. If you are standing still, you will never become more opaque because someone is looking in your direction. Active scanners are mostly likely "more powerful" - by which I mean more commonly used - than active cloaks because they are easy to use relative to the utility they provide. You can scan and help your team immediately. The cost to benefit ratio may be skewed, but that discussion would belong in a "Nerf active scanners" thread. Cloaks have a higher skill curve, a higher potential reward, and a higher trade off. Personally, I would rather be able to sneak up and kill a logi repping a heavy than know that there is a logi repping a heavy 20m in front of me. So now scout is a slayer role? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris

Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8350	Posted - 2015.02.04 05:01:00 - [91] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for . The shimmer is a draw back but a necessary one. Yes, exactly a scout using nothing but E-war will never be as useful as an assault HP tanking, at least not in the current state of E-war. The fact that seeing 30m on a suit that has to sacrifice almost all their Hp capabilities, at least in a perfect world, is reason enough to remove the 85% reduction to range. Classifying scouts all into 1 playstyle is really bad reasoning, scouts can and should be able to perform other roles beyond just not being seen, and maybe seeing people. An assault that has no E-war equipped can still scan other suits from a decent distance, so that is a false comparison. That sentiment would not be shared, the one about being fine with the cloak because it's "unique," if there penalty to what your role bonus encouraged, honestly. You mean like movement speed reductions on armor plates and increased depleted delay/reduced shield capacity on shield modules..? Tell me, what does our role bonus encourage, exactly..? Reduced fitting costs on weaponry? Dispersion reductions? Reload speed increases? Don't make me laugh dude, at least Scouts have a legitimate and verifiable role in this game. Assaults and Commandos are so mixed and meshed together no-one even know what they're supposed to do besides be cannon fodder for Scouts and Heavies. Sir Dukey wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering... What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts". A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot. Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing... The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization. EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of? There is no point to precision if your range is like 7m. It's like a car, there is no point in big fuel tank if it is electric. You can't utilize precision with low range and you cant utilize big gas tank in a mostly electric car. So I suppose that is you giving permission for Assault suits to have a longer short-range scan..? You act like having a small scan radius is somehow unique to Cloaky Scouts or something. #DealWithIt Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 860	Posted - 2015.02.04 05:13:00 - [92] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: You mean like movement speed reductions on armor plates and increased depleted delay/reduced shield capacity on shield modules..? Tell me, what does our role bonus encourage, exactly..? Reduced fitting costs on weaponry? Dispersion reductions? Reload speed increases? Don't make me laugh dude, at least Scouts have a legitimate and verifiable role in this game. Assaults and Commandos are so mixed and meshed together no-one even know what they're supposed to do besides be cannon fodder for Scouts and Heavies. So I suppose that is you giving permission for Assault suits to have a longer short-range scan..? You act like having a small scan radius is somehow unique to Cloaky Scouts or something. #DealWithIt No, if you have an armor module it doesn't negate anything on a suit completely. Whereas the cloak completely negates any passive scanning, no matter how many slots one dedicates to the suit. Laugh all you want, the point of role bonuses is to steer players to do as the suit was intended. That's why sentinels get a reduction to heavy weapons, assaults to light weaponry. I've said earlier any issues regarding the cloak from the scout community, not the forum community, would be easily remedied if E-war or the cloak was completely removed. If you want to complain about disparity go make a thread about it. Don't come to a thread where players are having legitimate issues with how something is functioning. And no the scout doesn't have a clear role considering that the only piece of equipment that scouts get a role bonus to penalizes them for using a suit in its intended fashion. Assaults have better range than a cloaked scout so... GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1689	Posted - 2015.02.04 05:32:00 - [93] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for . The shimmer is a draw back but a necessary one. Yes, exactly a scout using nothing but E-war will never be as useful as an assault HP tanking, at least not in the current state of E-war. The fact that seeing 30m on a suit that has to sacrifice almost all their Hp capabilities, at least in a perfect world, is reason enough to remove the 85% reduction to range. Classifying scouts all into 1 playstyle is really bad reasoning, scouts can and should be able to perform other roles beyond just not being seen, and maybe seeing people. An assault that has no E-war equipped can still scan other suits from a decent distance, so that is a false comparison. That sentiment would not be shared, the one about being fine with the cloak because it's "unique," if there penalty to what your role bonus encouraged, honestly. You mean like movement speed reductions on armor plates and increased depleted delay/reduced shield capacity on shield modules..? Tell me, what does our role bonus encourage, exactly..? Reduced fitting costs on weaponry? Dispersion reductions? Reload speed increases? Don't make me laugh dude, at least Scouts have a legitimate and verifiable role in this game. Assaults and Commandos are so mixed and meshed together no-one even know what they're supposed to do besides be cannon fodder for Scouts and Heavies. Sir Dukey wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering... What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts". A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot. Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing... The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization. EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of? There is no point to precision if your range is like 7m. It's like a car, there is no point in big fuel tank if it is electric. You can't utilize precision with low range and you cant utilize big gas tank in a mostly electric car. So I suppose that is you giving permission for Assault suits to have a longer short-range scan..? You act like having a small scan radius is somehow unique to Cloaky Scouts or something. #DealWithIt 7m is exaggerating, it's more like 3m total due to the 85% range nerf when cloaked. Also, why does it makes sense that a heavy has longer scan range than scout? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 860	Posted - 2015.02.04 05:33:00 - [94] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: The active scanner does not effect the scan range and precision of a suit, because it is one-directional while the suit's native scans are omni-directional. However, I understand that my problem with your statement can be considered one of semantics, so I will concede that an active scanner can be classified in the same way as a cloak field. The role of a scout is to visual and electronically confirm targets, and assassinate said targets by closing the distance quickly. Scouts get a bonus to complete all of these jobs. "Avoiding Detection" can be done in more ways than one. By definition of "being harder to see", being detected while using a cloak field is not a 50/50 probability event. If you are "harder to see", then then you are more likely to go unseen than to be detected. So, the ratio could be something like 60/40 or 90/10. Just anything greater than 50/50. The cloak can be used usefully when there are no enemies present - it can be used preemptively, for example. If you notice a suit within your 40m scan range, you can cloak before they see you and plan your route around - or behind - their position. It is a defensive and positional tool. Only one of those descriptors (defensive) requires enemy presence You are correct in saying that "When using the active scanner, you are 100% sure whether or not enemies are present". However, the information that "there are no enemies currently in the 90 degree (or less) field of view that you have" is not very powerful information. For all you know, the enemy could be there just a second after you scanned and you could be walking into a trap. Further more, the active scanner has a chance to fail even when someone is inside its radius. So, you will know that someone is in your arc, but not know anything more than that. The active scanner does not have that failure. If you are standing still, you will never become more opaque because someone is looking in your direction. Active scanners are mostly likely "more powerful" - by which I mean more commonly used - than active cloaks because they are easy to use relative to the utility they provide. You can scan and help your team immediately. The cost to benefit ratio may be skewed, but that discussion would belong in a "Nerf active scanners" thread. Cloaks have a higher skill curve, a higher potential reward, and a higher trade off. Personally, I would rather be able to sneak up and kill a logi repping a heavy than know that there is a logi repping a heavy 20m in front of me. 6. No the active scanner is more powerful-as in more resourceful, more range, equal to or greater precision than a scout's scans-180 degrees of 100m scans after a 20 second cool down is much better than 30m at the price of x amount of lows and highs. No they do not have a higher reward because skill curve, they have as much reward as any other module that may or may not shoot you in the foot, oh wait the cloak is the only equipment that penalizes you for what you fit on your suit huh... 5. 90 degree field if you don't swing the active scanner like people who use the active scanner do. If scanners didn't have a fixed, long range that shows directionals(which was supposed to be removed) it wouldn't be an issue, but again that's beside the point. 4. There is no chance anyone will ever see anyone at 40m with passive scans, unless they're a logi, so let me knock that right out of your head right now. Even if you could the 6m of range that the cloak will leave you with won't let you predict how that suit is going to move. So positioning is out the window. 3. 50-50 is not far fetched by any means some people will see you and some people won't. There's no way of know whose seen you and who hasn't therefore it's 50-50. 2. The issue is the cloak working against avoiding detection, don't deviate from that just because you can't come up with a good response to it. The scout bonus only applies to cloak fitting optimization nothing else, fundamentally meaning to use the cloak, even if you were right how do nova knife damage increases help avoid detection, here's a tip genius, they don't. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 839	Posted - 2015.02.04 06:32:00 - [95] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: 6. No the active scanner is more powerful-as in more resourceful, more range, equal to or greater precision than a scout's scans-180 degrees of 100m scans after a 20 second cool down is much better than 30m at the price of x amount of lows and highs. No they do not have a higher reward because skill curve, they have as much reward as any other module that may or may not shoot you in the foot, oh wait the cloak is the only equipment that penalizes you for what you fit on your suit huh... 5. 90 degree field if you don't swing the active scanner like people who use the active scanner do. If scanners didn't have a fixed, long range that shows directionals(which was supposed to be removed) it wouldn't be an issue, but again that's beside the point. 4. There is no chance anyone will ever see anyone at 40m with passive scans, unless they're a logi, so let me knock that right out of your head right now. Even if you could the 6m of range that the cloak will leave you with won't let you predict how that suit is going to move. So positioning is out the window. 3. 50-50 is not far fetched by any means some people will see you and some people won't. There's no way of know whose seen you and who hasn't therefore it's 50-50. 2. The issue is the cloak working against avoiding detection, don't deviate from that just because you can't come up with a good response to it. The scout bonus only applies to cloak fitting optimization nothing else, fundamentally meaning to use the cloak, even if you were right how do nova knife damage increases help avoid detection, here's a tip genius, they don't. Point 1: I may have understated the usefulness of active scanners. That's fair. However, I still believe that the utility that can be gained by using a cloak is higher than the utility gained by using an active scanner. Using active scanners just casts a much larger net, on a community that tends to not run dampeners on their suits. However, that's an opinion that I've stated a few times before. If you disagree with it then we might just disagree more fundamentally, in which case I'd probably have to sit on the thoughts in this thread a little longer and just think. Point 2: As you mentioned, this is a separate issue for a different thread Point 3: I do not know what at what range a sufficiently precision-tanked scout can see the majority of suits, so I will take your word that it is some range less than 40m. However, at ranges less than 40m, you don't need to use your radar to predict the general motion of the suit. You can stay out of LoS and be hidden to the suit until he is close enough for you to feel confident in predicting his motion, then activate your cloak. However, I think that you are overstating the difficulty in predicting the motion of someone at 40m. Most people do not run random patterns to throw off anyone who might be looking. They generally run the shortest distance between themselves and whatever objective - supply depot, nanohive, etc - they are pursuing. Point 4: As I said earlier, the nature of "being more difficult to see" inherently makes the odds slanted towards "not detected". Some will see you, but less people will see you than if you were in the same position without the cloak. Point 5: The cloak works against EWAR detection due to the visual "protection" it offers. I'm not deviating from any point because I can't think of anything. It's just because I disagree with you. The scout receives other bonuses native to the suit that allow it to scout in other ways. I'm not sure why being a scout must either be "Having complete EWAR superiority all of the time" or "We are no longer scouts". As I mentioned before, I'm not against tweaking the values of the range nerf. That's just a problem of degree. Finally, the extra jabs and comments are pretty unnecessary. We're having a simple discussion. I'm not angry at you in the least. I'm arguing about the utility of equipment in a video game. This is not to say that I don't care about DUST - I truly do. It's only to make the point that having all of this tension over the discussion is pretty unwarranted, given the context. Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 862	Posted - 2015.02.04 07:04:00 - [96] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: \ Point 3: I do not know what at what range a sufficiently precision-tanked scout can see the majority of suits, so I will take your word that it is some range less than 40m. However, at ranges less than 40m, you don't need to use your radar to predict the general motion of the suit. You can stay out of LoS and be hidden to the suit until he is close enough for you to feel confident in predicting his motion, then activate your cloak. However, I think that you are overstating the difficulty in predicting the motion of someone at 40m. Most people do not run random patterns to throw off anyone who might be looking. They generally run the shortest distance between themselves and whatever objective - supply depot, nanohive, etc - they are pursuing. Point 5: The cloak works against EWAR detection due to the visual "protection" it offers. I'm not deviating from any point because I can't think of anything. It's just because I disagree with you. The scout receives other bonuses native to the suit that allow it to scout in other ways. I'm not sure why being a scout must either be "Having complete EWAR superiority all of the time" or "We are no longer scouts". As I mentioned before, I'm not against tweaking the values of the range nerf. That's just a problem of degree. Finally, the extra jabs and comments are pretty unnecessary. We're having a simple discussion. I'm not angry at you in the least. I'm arguing about the utility of equipment in a video game. This is not to say that I don't care about DUST - I truly do. It's only to make the point that having all of this tension over the discussion is pretty unwarranted, given the context. If I can't punctuate my points with insults, there is no point, and no fun. Point V/ IV: "Protection" is a strong word, and it does not describe the cloak at all. With the delay and removal of scans there is nothing protective about the cloak. There are no weapons that have a small range, besides the shotgun, being cloaked does not prevent any weapon from shooting you dead before you can pull out a weapon to defend yourself. And a properly dampened scout will also have issues with running away considering most if not all of their lows are dedicated to profile dampening, none to range generally, not to mention range amplifiers don't give enough range to justify the slot usage, and the cloak. I see no issue in a scout having complete e-war superiority all of the time, no one seems to mind that assaults have complete mobile assault superiority, logi's have complete equipment superiority, heavies have complete tank and gank superiority. Point III: We aren't talking about NPCs here no matter how many new players are killed in pubs, one cannot simply predict the motion of any suit from 40m. A player is controlling that character, and no matter what anyone thinks there is no guarantee that said player will move in a way that is predictable. In a competitive match where balanced should be equated from, no player will run willy nilly from place to place without worrying about another suit in the area. Without knowing the pattern in which the enemy is moving, one cannot know whether or not they are being baited. Even is Scouts could see their enemies while cloaked they could still be baited. If a scout does happen to use all their slots for E-war(which again in the current meta is an awful idea) they will not have sufficient HP to retaliate or escape a threat when seen. So I still don't see an issue with cloaks allowing for passive scanning while cloaked. Point I :Your belief is misguided, but I'll allow you to have your wrong opinion without further derailing the thread. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
taxi bastard Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 383	Posted - 2015.02.04 07:37:00 - [97] - Quote i have given up using the cloak, but its not a bad thing as i started using a light frame well before there was cloaks and i did fine then and i am doing ok now. EWAR - its still pretty good if you sacrifice for it, though range enhancers need a buff! here is my favorite caldari advanced scout fit atm 2 precision enhancers 1 complex sheild extender 2 complex codebreakers ACR KN uplink needle you see most scouts when cloaked, and they simply don't expect you too. you can hack in relative safety because you will pick up most of what is approaching. ok its not got great EHP, nor is it very quick but its good at its job. "Attention Axiom shoppers try red its the new blue" - WALL-E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1BQPV-iCkU CCP's update
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8376	Posted - 2015.02.04 14:59:00 - [98] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: You mean like movement speed reductions on armor plates and increased depleted delay/reduced shield capacity on shield modules..? Tell me, what does our role bonus encourage, exactly..? Reduced fitting costs on weaponry? Dispersion reductions? Reload speed increases? Don't make me laugh dude, at least Scouts have a legitimate and verifiable role in this game. Assaults and Commandos are so mixed and meshed together no-one even know what they're supposed to do besides be cannon fodder for Scouts and Heavies. So I suppose that is you giving permission for Assault suits to have a longer short-range scan..? You act like having a small scan radius is somehow unique to Cloaky Scouts or something. #DealWithIt No, if you have an armor module it doesn't negate anything on a suit completely. Whereas the cloak completely negates any passive scanning, no matter how many slots one dedicates to the suit. Laugh all you want, the point of role bonuses is to steer players to do as the suit was intended. That's why sentinels get a reduction to heavy weapons, assaults to light weaponry. I've said earlier any issues regarding the cloak from the scout community, not the forum community, would be easily remedied if E-war or the cloak was completely removed. If you want to complain about disparity go make a thread about it. Don't come to a thread where players are having legitimate issues with how something is functioning. And no the scout doesn't have a clear role considering that the only piece of equipment that scouts get a role bonus to penalizes them for using a suit in its intended fashion. Assaults have better range than a cloaked scout so... Also, just realized you just pulled that pre-buff assault argument right out of you rectum, What the heck man I thought this was supposed to be a discussion and you're bringing up irrelevant information. The assault is currently the meta so I don't know why you're complaining their role is to kill, and they excel at it... There are two scouts that have anything to do with precision as far as role: The Caldari, with it's increase scan range and the Gallente, with it's (minor) bonus to precision. Of which, -both- of them receive a profile reduction built into the suit through skills and that does not include the use of modules. While I could -maybe- see the argument that it's "going against what the role intends", that logic only applies to these two racial suits considering the Amarr and Minmatar are geared for different things. Even still, you're asking for semi-invisibility, tactical invisibility, and the ability to see things on tacnet without having to change your fittings at all. If they removed the penalty completely, you would have the best of everything in EWAR and not have to fit anything besides a cloaking device. What drawbacks are there? What stops a scout from brick tanking and just being generally god mode over everything else in that case? Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 863	Posted - 2015.02.04 17:16:00 - [99] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: There are two scouts that have anything to do with precision as far as role: The Caldari, with it's increase scan range and the Gallente, with it's (minor) bonus to precision. Of which, -both- of them receive a profile reduction built into the suit through skills and that does not include the use of modules. While I could -maybe- see the argument that it's "going against what the role intends", that logic only applies to these two racial suits considering the Amarr and Minmatar are geared for different things. Even still, you're asking for semi-invisibility, tactical invisibility, and the ability to see things on tacnet without having to change your fittings at all. If they removed the penalty completely, you would have the best of everything in EWAR and not have to fit anything besides a cloaking device. What drawbacks are there? What stops a scout from brick tanking and just being generally god mode over everything else in that case? EDIT: That being said, if Scouts aren't slayers then what good is having precision on the cloaking device for any reason other than to gimmick-predator-kill whoever you're trying to ride up on..? Actually there are 3 Amarr being the one you forgot, however all the scouts get a role bonus to the cloak so that means they are all encouraged to use it. I honestly don't see an issue with being in a paper thin suit(because that's what it takes to scan anything beyond 20m range)being semi-hard to see, and having 30m of scan range where you can see most enemies, when you've dedicated your suit to it. Again you wouldn't sing the same tune if every armor repairer made your assault lose all hp tanking abilities. That's not true at all, even in E-wars current state it takes too much resources to have suit that's good at scanning, and good at bricking. Though I do agree that the bonuses should have been moved to module efficacy to prevent brick tanking scouts from gaining any benefit from their bonus, however in the current state of things it would be a bad idea, and nobody cares enough to push for it anymore. Beyond that brick tanking scouts are a farce to player, assault have taken the reigns of the best slayer, as it should be. The argument about scouts shouldn't be good at every type of E-war is a funny one. Apparently no one has an issue when someone has sufficient armor reps and armor tank, or sufficient shield tank, regeneration, and delay reduction, but when the scouts try it with their intended role everyone has to wet themselves about it. Tell me, what stops a gallente assault from having 30+hp/s reps and 700 ehp, what's stopping a caldari assault from getting 76 hp/s with a 2 second delay and 500+ shields? Nothing at all. The reason that scouts have cloaks and "scans" is because if they dedicate their suit to E-war they won't have sufficient HP to survive engagement thus they must avoid the engagement until they have ample time/chance to attack without throwing their suit away like an idiot. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8429	Posted - 2015.02.05 05:01:00 - [100] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: There are two scouts that have anything to do with precision as far as role: The Caldari, with it's increase scan range and the Gallente, with it's (minor) bonus to precision. Of which, -both- of them receive a profile reduction built into the suit through skills and that does not include the use of modules. While I could -maybe- see the argument that it's "going against what the role intends", that logic only applies to these two racial suits considering the Amarr and Minmatar are geared for different things. Even still, you're asking for semi-invisibility, tactical invisibility, and the ability to see things on tacnet without having to change your fittings at all. If they removed the penalty completely, you would have the best of everything in EWAR and not have to fit anything besides a cloaking device. What drawbacks are there? What stops a scout from brick tanking and just being generally god mode over everything else in that case? EDIT: That being said, if Scouts aren't slayers then what good is having precision on the cloaking device for any reason other than to gimmick-predator-kill whoever you're trying to ride up on..? Actually there are 3 Amarr being the one you forgot, however all the scouts get a role bonus to the cloak so that means they are all encouraged to use it. I honestly don't see an issue with being in a paper thin suit(because that's what it takes to scan anything beyond 20m range)being semi-hard to see, and having 30m of scan range where you can see most enemies, when you've dedicated your suit to it. Again you wouldn't sing the same tune if every armor repairer made your assault lose all hp tanking abilities. That's not true at all, even in E-wars current state it takes too much resources to have suit that's good at scanning, and good at bricking. Though I do agree that the bonuses should have been moved to module efficacy to prevent brick tanking scouts from gaining any benefit from their bonus, however in the current state of things it would be a bad idea, and nobody cares enough to push for it anymore. Beyond that brick tanking scouts are a farce to player, assault have taken the reigns of the best slayer, as it should be. The argument about scouts shouldn't be good at every type of E-war is a funny one. Apparently no one has an issue when someone has sufficient armor reps and armor tank, or sufficient shield tank, regeneration, and delay reduction, but when the scouts try it with their intended role everyone has to wet themselves about it. Tell me, what stops a gallente assault from having 30+hp/s reps and 700 ehp, what's stopping a caldari assault from getting 76 hp/s with a 2 second delay and 500+ shields? Nothing at all. The reason that scouts have cloaks and "scans" is because if they dedicate their suit to E-war they won't have sufficient HP to survive engagement thus they must avoid the engagement until they have ample time/chance to attack without throwing their suit away like an idiot. No-one has an issue with someone having sufficient armor reps and armor tank because it has hard-counters: Mass Drivers, Core Locus Grenades, Small Missile Turrets, HMGs. No-one has an issue with someone having sufficient shield tank, regeneration, and delay reduction because it has hard-counters: Scrambler Rifles, Flux Grenades, getting a single round on them with any weapon to prevent shields from recharging. You know what the counter is for EWAR? EWAR. You counter profile dampeners by running an Active Scanner, which in the case of the Focused scanner (the one geared toward Scouts) has an insanely high cool-down, insanely low angle, and is so incredibly niche that the only suit it's really viable on is a Gallente Logistics... Which is even more amusing because there was this initiative (that passed, btw) for -ALL- Scouts to be able to get beneath a Focused Scanner even on a Gallente Logi with max skills. So please explain to me what the counter is for that? As far as range and precision, are we expecting that every other player is now required to hopelessly profile tank in place of their main tank -just- to deal with Scouts that have both Tactical Invisibility and Visual Invisibility..? What is the counter toward this if I can never profile dampen low enough to get beneath a Scout's precision, let alone a Gallente Logi's..? Do you see the flaw here or are you still convinced that Cloaky Scouts have some unfair disadvantage? Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6388	Posted - 2015.02.05 05:04:00 - [101] - Quote Beating scans isn't beating the game, Aeon. If it were, Assaults would not be outselling Scouts at nearly 2:1. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 623	Posted - 2015.02.05 05:14:00 - [102] - Quote All this cloak discussion -- yet OP doesn't make any comment on how scouts (any fast frame really) can lag through frames and ignore damage?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6388	Posted - 2015.02.05 05:20:00 - [103] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: All this cloak discussion -- yet OP doesn't make any comment on how scouts (any fast frame really) can lag through frames and ignore damage? Wiggle-wiggle, framerate and hit detection are separate issues from Cloak. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 869	Posted - 2015.02.05 05:24:00 - [104] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: No-one has an issue with someone having sufficient armor reps and armor tank because it has hard-counters: Mass Drivers, Core Locus Grenades, Small Missile Turrets, HMGs. No-one has an issue with someone having sufficient shield tank, regeneration, and delay reduction because it has hard-counters: Scrambler Rifles, Flux Grenades, getting a single round on them with any weapon to prevent shields from recharging. You know what the counter is for EWAR? EWAR. You counter profile dampeners by running an Active Scanner, which in the case of the Focused scanner (the one geared toward Scouts) has an insanely high cool-down, insanely low angle, and is so incredibly niche that the only suit it's really viable on is a Gallente Logistics... Which is even more amusing because there was this initiative (that passed, btw) for -ALL- Scouts to be able to get beneath a Focused Scanner even on a Gallente Logi with max skills. So please explain to me what the counter is for that? As far as range and precision, are we expecting that every other player is now required to hopelessly profile tank in place of their main tank -just- to deal with Scouts that have both Tactical Invisibility and Visual Invisibility..? What is the counter toward this if I can never profile dampen low enough to get beneath a Scout's precision, let alone a Gallente Logi's..? Do you see the flaw here or are you still convinced that Cloaky Scouts have some unfair disadvantage? The counter of E-war is not E-war, anyone with sufficient E-war will go down faster than butter the moment anyone else has their sights on them. The scanner should not beat every form of E-war because that would be more of an issue of everyone on the enemy team being unable to avoid scans, thus having stealth-play completely nullified. Just because a scout can see an enemy on passive scans that does not necessarily mean it will be able to do anything about said enemy. Countering E-war is as simple as killing a 300 EHP suit, literally anyone can do it. And no the gal-logi isn't the only suit that can run an active scanner effectively, any other suit can use an active scanner and scan 90% of the team, the other 10% being dampened scouts, if that. The reason no one has an issue with armor and shields not having a penalty is because everyone would be affected by it and no one would want it. Everyone's fine with the penalties on the scout because they've all moved to the assault and couldn't give a flying turd about any other class in game. No, no one cares if other suits profile tank, the game is all about choice. If I should choose to E-war tank, it should be a just as valid choice as HP tanking. E-war is not some god-send power that will allow you to dodge all the bullets thrown at you, and tank millions of hp. All it is is to allow low hp suits to avoid and ambush enemies, that's it. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 627	Posted - 2015.02.05 07:58:00 - [105] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Imp Smash wrote: All this cloak discussion -- yet OP doesn't make any comment on how scouts (any fast frame really) can lag through frames and ignore damage? Wiggle-wiggle, framerate and hit detection are separate issues from Cloak. Not really when cloak exasperates hit detection issues. More like, can't buff cloak to work proper till hit detection is fixed. Then cloak can be reverted to original incarnation (weapon swap while cloak included!) and not be OP.
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 871	Posted - 2015.02.05 08:05:00 - [106] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Not really when cloak exasperates hit detection issues. More like, can't buff cloak to work proper till hit detection is fixed. Then cloak can be reverted to original incarnation (weapon swap while cloak included!) and not be OP. I have no idea where your assumption is coming from, but it's wrong. Hit detection is messed up to begin with and strafing is what makes it worse(if the detection system can't even tell if a non-moving target was hit it won't get better with people frantically moving to avoid being hit) This issue applies to assaults, logies, heavies, scouts, and even commandos, so by your logic we should nerf all of those classes as well until hit detection is fixed right? GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 1334	Posted - 2015.02.05 08:42:00 - [107] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of? Don't spread lies Aeon. You were no angel, you sure were not polite. You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6392	Posted - 2015.02.05 13:02:00 - [108] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Imp Smash wrote: All this cloak discussion -- yet OP doesn't make any comment on how scouts (any fast frame really) can lag through frames and ignore damage? Wiggle-wiggle, framerate and hit detection are separate issues from Cloak. Not really when cloak exasperates hit detection issues. More like, can't buff cloak to work proper till hit detection is fixed. Then cloak can be reverted to original incarnation (weapon swap while cloak included!) and not be OP. We've no reason to believe that Cloak has any effect on Hit Detection. Further, the original incarnation of cloak was too much. Its active damp bonus permitted Assault Lite to tank and beat scans while the lack of decloak delay and fire-from-cloak facilitated use in frontal attack. It was as much an Assault tool as a sneak tool, and it was nothing short of imbalanced. The only things about cloak which I think should change: * Less obvious shimmer; reduced visibility at range in all maps/moods * Decloak delay fix; delay shouldn't be activated unless decloaking If these changes are insufficient to make Cloak competitive, then perhaps we can consider less decloak delay and slightly less severe cloak-blind. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 214	Posted - 2015.02.05 15:51:00 - [109] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If these changes are insufficient to make Cloak competitive,... Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts. Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts. Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP. I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 876	Posted - 2015.02.05 16:12:00 - [110] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts. Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts. Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP. I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm. You don't know what you're talking about period. If you honestly think that a class shouldn't be balanced because you don't like the class, you should stop any form of thought process you have had in ever, because it's wrong. You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting. If the 5 second delay on the cloak isn't enough for you to counter a shotgun scout that's a fault on your end. If you can't avoid a cloaked scout throwing RE's, a full 10 second set up period, that's a fault on your end. TTK is well below both time values. But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th

Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 455	Posted - 2015.02.05 16:37:00 - [111] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: [...] How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of? Adipem, Llast, King, Arkena, myself and maybe 3 others were very polite and nice to you and actually EXCITED about your new experiment. I was even more excited about the prospect of gaining another regular. Only -2- people (that may even have been the same person using an alt for all I know) got immature. I honestly hope you didn't ignore everyone else during that :( .
TerranKnight87 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 112	Posted - 2015.02.05 16:42:00 - [112] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts. Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts. Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP. I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm. You don't know what you're talking about period. If you honestly think that a class shouldn't be balanced because you don't like the class, you should stop any form of thought process you have had in ever, because it's wrong. You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting. If the 5 second delay on the cloak isn't enough for you to counter a shotgun scout that's a fault on your end. If you can't avoid a cloaked scout throwing RE's, a full 10 second set up period, that's a fault on your end. TTK is well below both time values. But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested. Smashed it mate. People who play a class almost exclusively are not a valid point of reference for balance ever, even if it is proto. There are those of us who have everything at proto across chars and play it all, we know what actual balance is. I've not played for about 5 months now though so i can't really comment on anything but i'm getting back on dust next month. I have heard that it is very balanced at the mo. This is TechMechMeds tanker. Redeployside - You are just in time for minimal immersion edition of ps2. Enjoy.
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 455	Posted - 2015.02.05 16:48:00 - [113] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If these changes are insufficient to make Cloak competitive,... Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts. Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts. Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP. I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm. Gyn, what Adipem is saying that those 2 issues are the only thing that the cloak needs in order to make us happy. One being the glitch where you can't get off cloak if you started running during the switch, and the other the poor design choice of adding a delay to the switch if you are NOT cloaked at all. We've seen a sizeable group of scouts abandon the cloak because of how it gets stuck, and I think that's what he means by making it competitive. With that said, many of us continue to use the cloak despite the glitchiness of its operation, myself included. The cloak DOES NOT need any buffs at this point, just bugs fixed. I am convinced it will be fine after that. It needs to not have a delay to swtch when you aren't cloaked to begin with.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6400	Posted - 2015.02.05 17:18:00 - [114] - Quote @ Gyn Wallace That's a great question. I'll get back with you momentarily. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1711	Posted - 2015.02.05 21:20:00 - [115] - Quote TerranKnight87 wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts. Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts. Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP. I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm. You don't know what you're talking about period. If you honestly think that a class shouldn't be balanced because you don't like the class, you should stop any form of thought process you have had in ever, because it's wrong. You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting. If the 5 second delay on the cloak isn't enough for you to counter a shotgun scout that's a fault on your end. If you can't avoid a cloaked scout throwing RE's, a full 10 second set up period, that's a fault on your end. TTK is well below both time values. But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested. Smashed it mate. People who play a class almost exclusively are not a valid point of reference for balance ever, even if it is proto. There are those of us who have everything at proto across chars and play it all, we know what actual balance is. I've not played for about 5 months now though so i can't really comment on anything but i'm getting back on dust next month. I have heard that it is very balanced at the mo. I'm a Heavy, Assault and Scout. A lot of us do not only play one role. I as an Assault can say it is way easier to dominate using assault than it is with scout. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
TerranKnight87 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 118	Posted - 2015.02.05 21:25:00 - [116] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: TerranKnight87 wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts. Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts. Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP. I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm. You don't know what you're talking about period. If you honestly think that a class shouldn't be balanced because you don't like the class, you should stop any form of thought process you have had in ever, because it's wrong. You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting. If the 5 second delay on the cloak isn't enough for you to counter a shotgun scout that's a fault on your end. If you can't avoid a cloaked scout throwing RE's, a full 10 second set up period, that's a fault on your end. TTK is well below both time values. But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested. Smashed it mate. People who play a class almost exclusively are not a valid point of reference for balance ever, even if it is proto. There are those of us who have everything at proto across chars and play it all, we know what actual balance is. I've not played for about 5 months now though so i can't really comment on anything but i'm getting back on dust next month. I have heard that it is very balanced at the mo. I'm a Heavy, Assault and Scout. A lot of us do not only play one role. I as an Assault can say it is way easier to dominate using assault than it is with scout. Isn't that how it should be?. That's also more to do with how you play than anything and an assault should dominate as that's what it's there for, to assault. Who's a lot of us because i was talking in general about anyone who plays class x almost exclusively.. This is TechMechMeds tanker. Redeployside - You are just in time for minimal immersion edition of ps2. Enjoy.
tritan abbattere DBAG CORE 17	Posted - 2015.02.05 21:32:00 - [117] - Quote Personally i was hoping more for what it is like in eve. When you get close to an enemy you decloak. Otherwise no one can see you while your running it. say like 10 meters or something. Probably me being crazy though. I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 880	Posted - 2015.02.05 22:13:00 - [118] - Quote tritan abbattere wrote: Personally i was hoping more for what it is like in eve. When you get close to an enemy you decloak. Otherwise no one can see you while your running it. say like 10 meters or something. Probably me being crazy though. Well that wouldn't be awful, if all other penalties to the cloak were removed... It wouldn't be totally great, but still... GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6407	Posted - 2015.02.05 22:23:00 - [119] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: tritan abbattere wrote: Personally i was hoping more for what it is like in eve. When you get close to an enemy you decloak. Otherwise no one can see you while your running it. say like 10 meters or something. Probably me being crazy though. Well that wouldn't be awful, if all other penalties to the cloak were removed... It wouldn't be totally great, but still... Perfect invisibility out to 10 meters with no decloak delay and no cloak-blind. That'd be better than great, Gustavo. It'd be broken beyond HMG broken. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 880	Posted - 2015.02.05 22:25:00 - [120] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: tritan abbattere wrote: Personally i was hoping more for what it is like in eve. When you get close to an enemy you decloak. Otherwise no one can see you while your running it. say like 10 meters or something. Probably me being crazy though. Well that wouldn't be awful, if all other penalties to the cloak were removed... It wouldn't be totally great, but still... Perfect invisibility out to 10 meters with no decloak delay and no cloak-blind. That'd be better than great, Gustavo. It'd be broken beyond HMG broken. Yeah it's great but my cynicism will not allow me to dwell in the realm of certainties. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6407	Posted - 2015.02.05 22:28:00 - [121] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Yeah it's great but my cynicism will not allow me to dwell in the realm of certainties. Better concealment would be great. Perfect concealment would be too much. Perfect concealment without decloak delay or sensor loss would be beyond too much. I'm certain enough for the both us that it'd be broken :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6409	Posted - 2015.02.05 23:42:00 - [122] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If these changes are insufficient to make Cloak competitive,... Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Sorry for the delay, Gyn. Again, this is an excellent question. A. Decloak Delay Bug First and foremost, the decloak delay bug is a bug and bugs should be fixed. Decloak Delay may not be loved by all, but it is necessary and proper. Delay without Decloak is by definition not "decloak delay"; it is neither necessary nor proper (nor prescribed, nor intended). This bug interferes with fluid gameplay; like all bugs, it tends to get in the way at the worst possible times. Fixing the bug would not amount to buffing cloak; it would amount to fixing a bug. B. Is Cloak Currently Competitive? 1. Is it the primary function of cloak to offer its user concealment when crossing open terrain? 2. Does cloak perform this primary function reasonably well when used in dark moods/maps/sockets? 3. Do competitive fights ever take place in dark moods/maps/sockets? We cannot claim that cloak is competitive if it fails to perform its primary function in competitive settings. C. My Two Cents The decloak delay bug needs to be fixed. Further, I would absolutely support improvements to shimmer. Cloak is useful some of the time, but "useful some of the time" does not mean competitive. Many good Scouts aren't using cloak at the moment. Most new Scouts can't use cloak at the moment. Cloak isn't healthy. But I'd sooner see it remain sick than be over corrected. Small steps are in order. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 214	Posted - 2015.02.06 00:04:00 - [123] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Gyn, what Adipem is saying that those 2 issues are the only thing that the cloak needs in order to make us happy. One being the glitch where you can't get off cloak if you started running during the switch, and the other the poor design choice of adding a delay to the switch if you are NOT cloaked at all. We've seen a sizeable group of scouts abandon the cloak because of how it gets stuck, and I think that's what he means by making it competitive. With that said, many of us continue to use the cloak despite the glitchiness of its operation, myself included. The cloak DOES NOT need any buffs at this point, just bugs fixed. I am convinced it will be fine after that. It needs to not have a delay to swtch when you aren't cloaked to begin with. Hey Ru, I've no problem with fixing the equipment glitches. Since I primarily run a scout for dropping initial uplinks, then a logi for the remainder of most matches, I endure them at least as often as scouts do. Fixing all the equipment switch glitches is a good thing. Seeing the specific cloak equipment switch delay fixed is a simply a lower priority than fixing the sprint/equipment switch glitches generally. Its no more catastrophic than failing to switch to a rep tool in time at the cost of a heavy, or failing to switch to a needle before someone gets terminated, or switching back to my main weapon only to find my crosshairs have disappeared rendering my primary weapon nearly useless. My comments were primarily concerned with the shimmer/visibility of cloak users. I'm not suggesting that cloaks should never be revisited, just that almost anything else is more urgent. We have a 60+ page thread on logis, that have been far more "broken" than the current cloak issues, for longer than there have been cloaks in this game. Are we really going to see scouts go through an entire cycle of buffs, nerfs, and buffs again, before logis get addressed? I wouldn't mind if cloak users had a lighting control, settable like control sensitivity from 0 to 100, that would let cloak users select the brightness/darkness of their shimmer for each map. But its honestly just not a big problem considering how often I'll spot shimmer and then immediately lose it. The difference is between peripheral and direct vision quality, which is exactly where that threshold should be. You know that if the devs do spend time to tweak this, making cloak shimmer a little bit darker, that the complaints will just shift from "too bright on dark maps" towards "too dark on bright maps." Any increase to overall transparency and people with crappy TVs or average vision will have too hard a time ever spotting cloaked scouts. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 214	Posted - 2015.02.06 00:18:00 - [124] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: A. Decloak Delay Bug First and foremost, the decloak delay bug is a bug and bugs should be fixed. Decloak Delay may not be loved by all, but it is necessary and proper. Delay without Decloak is by definition not "decloak delay"; it is neither necessary nor proper (nor prescribed, nor intended). This bug interferes with fluid gameplay; like all bugs, it tends to get in the way at the worst possible times. Fixing the bug would not amount to buffing cloak; it would amount to fixing a bug. B. Is Cloak Currently Competitive? 1. Is it the primary function of cloak to offer its user concealment when crossing open terrain? 2. Does cloak perform this primary function reasonably well when used in dark moods/maps/sockets? 3. Do competitive fights ever take place in dark moods/maps/sockets? We cannot claim that cloak is competitive if it fails to perform its primary function in competitive settings. C. My Two Cents The decloak delay bug needs to be fixed. Further, I would absolutely support improvements to shimmer. Cloak is useful some of the time, but "useful some of the time" does not mean competitive. Many good Scouts aren't using cloak at the moment. Most new Scouts can't use cloak at the moment. Cloak isn't healthy. But I'd sooner see it remain sick than be over corrected. Small steps are in order. First, thanks for the thoughtful reply. Regarding the equipment switch bug, I agree that it should be fixed, but only as a subset of fixing all the equipment glitches. It should in no way be a higher priority than the needle, rep, hive, and uplink bugs. But I agree, by all means fix all the bugs. Regarding "B," I admit that my experience is necessarily anecdotal and ask you: How many competitive matches really take place on dark maps? I don't find myself in dark maps very often. I'd be fine with cloaks performing better in dark maps and worse in lighter maps, but I don't think that's what regular cloak users really want. Scouts are complaining about a problem that arises in a minority of maps, whereas the rest of the equipment giltches affect logis on every map. Finally, I agree that small steps are better than big nerf/buff swings. I'm so glad that Ratatti actually listens to the community sometimes. (The most recent example that comes to mind was pulling back on the plans to increase TacAR magazines to 30, and just bringing them up to 24.) I just think there are many other small steps the game needs more than this one, and even a few big steps (PvE, m/kb recoding, framerate issues, etc.) The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 214	Posted - 2015.02.06 00:33:00 - [125] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: You don't know what you're talking about period. ... But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested. Despite "not knowing anything I'm talking about period" I'll answer your questions. I don't think cloaks should be buffed, because I see people using them to excellent effect. Like all equipment, I also see some people using them badly. The balance between the two doesn't suggest to me that the cloak is particularly under or over powered at the moment. I'd love some stats from CCP to inform us all of whose perceptions are closest to the truth. Yes, I run a scout frequently, though not primarily. No, as you've established by simply declaring it, I can't possibly have any idea what I'm talking about. My reasoning, isn't that any piece of equipment can't bear reexamination and rebalancing, but that the marginal improvements to the game by focusing dev time on cloaks is minimal compared to other areas where their attention is needed more. I can acknowledge that cloaks can be improved very slightly. But they're so close to being well balanced already, that I lack confidence that CCP is capable of taking a small enough step to buff the shimmer without making cloaks OP again. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 216	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:05:00 - [126] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm. ... You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting. The harm to the game of an OP aspect is directly proportional to the inability of everyone else to mitigate that harm. Mitigating that harm is most often, though not always, directly related to mobility. What are the worst things to have OP, in descending order of harm? Vehicles, scouts, assaults, heavies. If heavies are OP, like they are a little bit right now, everyone who isn't slower than a heavy, i.e. Everyone, can mitigate their OPness. When snipers (who functionally are somewhat imobile relative to their most common targets) are OP, everyone can use cover from the sniper's direction to mitigate their effect. In other words, when slow things are OP, its not that bad. When fast things are OP, its devastating to game balance. What mitigates OP scouts? Positioning? No, scouts can outmaneuver everyone. Fitting? No, scouts win the arms race between precision and damping. Overwhelming firepower? No, shotguns and REs are very high alpha weapons. Expense? No. Scouts are among the cheapest fits to run. The only thing worse for the game than OP scouts, are OP vehicles, because of their vastly superior mobility, but at least when vehicles were wildly OP, the expense of vehicles mitigated the frequency with which pilots dominated matches. I'm not against scouts and cloaks being balanced. But I lack confidence that CCP can fine tune an improvement to cloaks that won't wind up being OP. Cloaks may be the most delicate, most prone to becoming over or under powered items in the game. As of right now there pretty close to being balanced. (Just like my favorite thing in the game, the mass driver.) I'd sooner CCP leave them both alone than screw either of them up. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 637	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:35:00 - [127] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Potential methods to use cloak use: 1:Sneak around the battlefield. 2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy. 3: Scan 4: Hit them in the rear. 5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Don't decloak near any enemies. Look around. Use your eyes. Your passive will help. Don't try scanning while cloaked. Scan after decloaked. Use cloaks as sneaky travel tools -- not assault/invisible scanner tools. Jack McReady wrote: they need to fix: -delay applying when you are not even cloaked -aim assist locking on to cloaked scout you havent seen -crosshair turning red when moving over cloaked scout you havent seen All of the above are fair. (still editing)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6411	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:53:00 - [128] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Regarding "B," I admit that my experience is necessarily anecdotal and ask you: How many competitive matches really take place on dark maps? I don't find myself in dark maps very often. I'd be fine with cloaks performing better in dark maps and worse in lighter maps, but I don't think that's what regular cloak users really want. Scouts are complaining about a problem that arises in a minority of maps, whereas the rest of the equipment giltches affect logis on every map. Cloak performs best outdoors in bright light. Most of the fights in PC occur around Null Cannons, and most of the Null Cannons in PC are indoors. Reversing the conditional from works-when-outside to works-when-inside won't make the cloak competitive. A role bonus should be useful all settings; this is the case with other classes. Logi EQ bonuses apply whether or not EQ is used up high, down low, in the dark or in the light. Sentinel explosive resistance does not degrade as environments grow brighter. Commandos reload just as quickly in the shadows as they do while standing in direct light. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 881	Posted - 2015.02.06 03:26:00 - [129] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: At no point does my logic have anything to do with what you said. I said, specifically, that cloak exasperates hit detection issues. Things are already bad enough that a scout running ferroscale can go toe to toe with an assault who has superior HP and have EVERY bit a good chance at winning. That is OP. Your suit weakness (low ehp) not actually existing PLUS tons of other bonuses. (Speed, better ewar -- even if it's not very good right now it's still better than everyone else's, equipment slots, hit box size, etc...) That weakness doesn't exist because at high speeds hit detection breaks too much. And Cloak takes synergizes with this. If you pretend that scouts couldn't run around slaying toe to toe with people then you are not worth talking to. Especially seeing as they can still do so. As I said, the cloak does not affect hit detection. It's a visual effect and nothing more, it does not affect any hitbox. You're right in the current state of E-war there are more brick tanked scouts than anything else. That is not a fault of people who scout, that is a fault of people who choose to do things as unintended whether or not they work. In this case the bricked tanked scout does work, and people choose to do that over E-war because E-war is ineffectual. Scouts are meant to be good at speed and E-war, the assault suit is better at everything else, so I don't know why it's a complaint. E-war being less attractive than HP tanking is the fault of the community for believing the price of an equipment slot is a greater sacrifice than highs and lows, and it should make the active scanner better than E-war. You're right hit detection should be fixed, but again that is not only an issue on the scout, any suit can strafe and exacerbate hit detection. And yes scouts can be slayers, but that can be said for any other suit as well. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 881	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:02:00 - [130] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: "reasoning" O.K. so your reasoning suggests that there are more important things beyond fixing a play style that has been all but crippled. You believe in this so strongly you'd rather see the most abused play style in the game buffed? Hmmm, you know what you're right, people should focus on fixing the glitches in the game. Not being able to use a Scout suit properly should a take a back seat so CCP can figure out what's up with those limbo-ing mercs and how they ruin the game. I mean we can give feedback on that right? Just make a post and tell CCP "Hey rattati this html value is causing the client to lag and glitch out, here's how you should edit it," I don't know anything about programming, but I'm sure you can do something beyond a rant post because a certain glitch killed you right? You should go do that, go help CCP figure what's wrong with their code you beautiful genius go on. Again what is your reasoning, beyond analogy, that suggests that the cloak is balanced? I mean if the cloak is balanced we should start pulling back on those PLC buffs, people did well with them before the buffs right? Yes they did... So, because people can kill sentinels you think their fine? By that logic we should give back the passive armor reps on the logis right? I mean they were killed. It doesn't matter how fast something is OP is OP and only a proper nerf can fix it. The scout suit itself cannot outmaneuver anything, it's the player. If a scout is running fast enough to outmaneuver they've obviously put some investment into biotics modules to their suit, and there's nothing wrong with it. If a player dedicates their suit to something it should be good at it, this is true for all things excluding E-war. I've said this once, and I'll say it again an E-war scout is not beaten with scans, or E-war, it is beaten like every other suit, by killing it. A proper E-war tanking scout will not have sufficient Hp to survive an engagement, that is why they are given E-war so they can avoid said engagements. And a shotgun does not produce anywhere near as much damage as an HMG does, and it doesn't have the range any-other gun in the game has so it's one's own fault for dying to a "cloaked scout" 5 seconds of delay is well beneath the TTK threshold at the moment. Price isn't a mitigation because players use what they want no matter the price, it's a game going bankrupt won't stop you from playing if you're having fun with what you're doing. So, again you only care if things are balanced to your liking, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't bring up good points. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 640	Posted - 2015.02.06 06:27:00 - [131] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: As I said, the cloak does not affect hit detection. It's a visual effect and nothing more, it does not affect any hitbox. You're right in the current state of E-war there are more brick tanked scouts than anything else. That is not a fault of people who scout, that is a fault of people who choose to do things as unintended whether or not they work. In this case the bricked tanked scout does work, and people choose to do that over E-war because E-war is ineffectual. Scouts are meant to be good at speed and E-war, the assault suit is better at everything else, so I don't know why it's a complaint. E-war being less attractive than HP tanking is the fault of the community for believing the price of an equipment slot is a greater sacrifice than highs and lows, and it should make the active scanner better than E-war. You're right hit detection should be fixed, but again that is not only an issue on the scout, any suit can strafe and exacerbate hit detection. And yes scouts can be slayers, but that can be said for any other suit as well. .....you just ignore stuff don't you...
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 883	Posted - 2015.02.06 07:16:00 - [132] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: My statement is this: Cloak is broken. Cloak needs to be 'buffed.' In this case buff means fixed. However, it cannot be due to scout's (and certain other suits coughminassaultcough) ridiculous hit detection cancelling abilities. Cloak has a high synergy with these abilities giving scouts an effective HP higher than an assault's. Plus the mobility to go be super high EHP at many places on the map. Adding cloak to damage cancelling abilities = something that is unreasonably hard to kill. No it doesn't. The synergy and effective hp I mean. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Sequal's Back Intara Direct Action Caldari State 245	Posted - 2015.02.06 11:24:00 - [133] - Quote Don't change cloak, it's great not to have everyone and their mother using it at every battle. Rise? That's what they used to call me. Sequal Rise. That was my name. Now I come Back to you, at the turn of the tide.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 216	Posted - 2015.02.06 14:42:00 - [134] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: ...It doesn't matter how fast something is OP is OP and only a proper nerf can fix it. The scout suit itself cannot outmaneuver anything, ... Sometimes you can just quote something silly, and give everyone pause to reread it and contemplate just how silly it is. The trouble with quoting your post, was trying to pair it down to only the most silly parts. It is precisely the scout's speed that makes it relatively easy for scouts to avoid OP heavies, and comparatively hard for heavies to avoid OP scouts. That is obvious enough that it can't seriously be disputed. I'm having trouble believing that you really can't understand that OPness can happen in degrees, that something can be a little bit OP or very OP. Even children can understand that. So... kudos! I made the mistake of taking a troll seriously. Well done. 6/10. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 886	Posted - 2015.02.06 17:35:00 - [135] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: ...It doesn't matter how fast something is OP is OP and only a proper nerf can fix it. The scout suit itself cannot outmaneuver anything, ... Sometimes you can just quote something silly, and give everyone pause to reread it and contemplate just how silly it is. The trouble with quoting your post, was trying to pair it down to only the most silly parts. It is precisely the scout's speed that makes it relatively easy for scouts to avoid OP heavies, and comparatively hard for heavies to avoid OP scouts. That is obvious enough that it can't seriously be disputed. I'm having trouble believing that you really can't understand that OPness can happen in degrees, that something can be a little bit OP or very OP. Even children can understand that. So... kudos! I made the mistake of taking a troll seriously. Well done. 6/10. Degrees don't matter in a game if something over-performs it over-performs, players don't even need to skill beyond level 1 in sentinel for it to be overwhelming. Then again this isn't a sentinel nerf thread, so I'll leave it at that. I don't troll Ideas discussion, (but if it was it would be 10/10 because I got a reaction out of you). All my points are still valid, you simply haven't argued against them. All you did was nitpick a sentence that is still a valid truth,[something that is Overpowered is fundamentally Overpowered, degrees don't have to be discussed(especially in a buff cloak thread), and it needs to be changed simple as that]. Scouts are meant to be good at speed, because they're meant to have low hp, but nothing discourages them from hp tanking.(other than that assaults are better at it)That's not a fault of the scout, that's a fault of the community for not creating an environment in which hp tanking is less attractive than E-war and sufficient E-war cannot be obtained along with significant HP. Avoiding heavies doesn't help anything in a team based game. Scouts aren't OP by any meaning of the word. a 2 second spray from the HMG (which has 30 meters of range)will kill any scout, or a good 5 second spray from any other weapon in the game. I don't see how that's OP, but maybe you'll explain it. Also heavies aren't supposed to avoid any suit they are bricks of HP with a spray of god mode. This is a cloak discussion so I'll leave these points here because they don't help discussion on why or why not the cloak should be buffed. You still have not brought good reason to the discussion, bad reasoning sure, but not good reason. Care to try again, don't forget it's a cloak discussion. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 468	Posted - 2015.02.06 22:26:00 - [136] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: [quote=gustavo acosta] [...] they're so close to being well balanced already, that I lack confidence that CCP is capable of taking a small enough step to buff the shimmer without making cloaks OP again. I agree with everything you've said Gyn. I also cannot advocate any Dev time on having some way to adjust the shimmer and I definitely do not advocate any ideas of darkening the shimmer. As scouts, we are better off hiding in the light, it's everywhere. Shadows are fewer and checked more often. Even if null cannons are where the action is at, I would still stand by what I said. It's a quirk and a livable one. With that said: THEY ABSOLUTELY need to look into fixing the delay when you are NOT cloaked. This is worth developer time. This means 2 very distinct things. 1. Switching weapons and activating sprint during the animation should NOT cancel that animation. This will fix rep tool and needle bugs. You can even re-create this bug switching from main weapon to side arm. 2. The decloak delay should be tied to actually being cloaked. It should have nothing to do whatsoever with the equipment swap delay. Just to be clear as crystal about my stance on the topic, the cloak needs no buffs. No EWAR improvements, no shimmer improvements, just make it work as it was intended.
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 469	Posted - 2015.02.06 22:47:00 - [137] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: The cloak user can be seen from a mile away, I mean, I can head shot those guys with a sniper rifle is how easily they are spotted. I'm not asking you to change that but it needs to be re-balanced. It doesn't really offer much for how much it takes away. Not only does it make all those precision enhancers and range extenders you put on useless, it gives are a really long battle wise delay. 1 second delay is enough for weapons to do 400+ damage and 900+ incase of the HMG. BUT- since we have no ewar while using cloak, this increases out chances of run face first into an enemy and adding in the stupid delay- we are literally at a disadvantage every single time. Seriously, you are using the cloak wrong. The cloak is a tool for observation. A scout does not run and gun like an assault does. If you ran into an area, head first into a heavy, it should either be a complete fluke OR you went into a hostile objective. Let the assaults do that. Our job is to cut off reinforcements, stragglers and destroy equipment. The cloak is supposed to help you gain an advantageous position BEFORE you engage the enemy. Quote: I spent 2.5 million + SP to get my Prototype Caldari Scout and when I cloak up, I lose all my ewar. No wonder no scout uses precision enhancers when running fits with a cloak. It's not fair!! Give me either one, either give me my ewar back or give me no decloak delay. It is super annoying being blinder than a heavy. Not only does it not make sense that a scout has worse ewar than a heavy, but on top of that, the stupid delay makes life impossible. The current ewar system is pretty bad for scouts, our range is really low even while decloaked, range extenders are a waste of slot and on top of that, the cloak takes away all the range. I mean, you might aswell use a logistics suit for ewar than a scout because we are now not even scouting. Scouts are the guys that hide and have no clue where the enemy is. This is the role being projected at me when I lost 85% of my range. Have you seen caldari scouts is PC? They all have 453 shields because since this stupid cloak range nerf, there is not one reason to use a precision enhancer. This is a problem with KING HP, not with the cloak. EWAR is working well right now, HP mods are still broken very badly. Quote: Also- Gal logi does a scouts job 5x better. I can literally sit in a corner all match in my dampened gal logi and provide ewar with my 4 scanners TO THE WHOLE TEAM and get WP out of it. What does it scout do? That Gal logi gets to do absolutely nothing for the match. He doesn't get to kill anything, dies horribly at the first sign of trouble and is otherwise dead weight to his team if he can't multiply their force properly. The difference between a Gal Logi with a full rack of scanners and a scout is versatility.
tritan abbattere DBAG CORE 24	Posted - 2015.02.07 00:39:00 - [138] - Quote I don't think HP mods are broken just how it effects scouts. I think E-war mods should get a buff again though and there should be more types of E-war. I think HP mods should slow the suit based on the Suits mass if its armor. So if a plate adds say 20 pounds and the suit weighs 220 then it would be 20/220 = 0.09 or 9 percent speed penalty. A heavy would weigh more so the penalty for it would be less. now those are mock numbers no idea if its balanced or not. just a thought for brick tanking scouts. Ewar is verry simple in this game. if you have lower DB then there scans you can't see them. its so simple kinda makes me sad. Different types of ewar that a scout could use would be great. example ECM burst. this could disable all of there minimap and red icons an prevent lockable weapons from working for 2 seconds or so. that's just one example of E-war you could do. The reason super tanks are used on scouts is becuase theres not manny options for scouts to have fun gameplay. Quote: Our job is to cut off reinforcements, stragglers and destroy equipment. kinda of a boring job if its main job. if a scout could be more harassment with E-war and disabling the enemy temporarily that would be more fun. The abilty to hack equipment so it uses the enemies bandwidth for an uplink would be cool. I don't think the cloak needs a buff but the scout or a scout varriant needs to be made for more then running around taking lone targets and destroying undefended equipment. Kinda why I like the mimatar scout. its ability to Hack stuff really fast making the enemy go WTF. This disables there ability to spawn close and get ammo and taking over turrets quickly to destroy tanks o the field. I don't think the cloak needs a buff maybe some changes on how it works. But i think the problem is The scout resorts to HAHA i can kill a full team with a shotgun i bet. Then rages because a logi with shotgun kills him or a sniper pegs him. The scout is very fragile and needs more then stealth to be fun. Could you imagine if scouts focused on setting up traps. example remote Web-nets. Galente scout could get a bonus to this and it basically impairs the enemy movement for few seconds. Amarr could have a thing to make weapons malfunction(makng RoF inconsitent and on averaged lowered). maybe minmatar could get remote hacking equipment. there so much stuff the scouts could have to make the game more interesting. I guess im asking for the recon ships in eve on the ground. Kinda the main reason i play logi. its the most interesting role in the game. if they add this i would start to try more then minmatar hacking scout. I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 473	Posted - 2015.02.07 00:43:00 - [139] - Quote tritan abbattere wrote: [...] I don't think the cloak needs a buff maybe some changes on how it works. But i think the problem is The scout resorts to HAHA i can kill a full team with a shotgun i bet. Then rages because a logi with shotgun kills him or a sniper pegs him. The scout is very fragile and needs more then stealth to be fun. Could you imagine if scouts focused on setting up traps. example remote Web-nets. Galente scout could get a bonus to this and it basically impairs the enemy movement for few seconds. Amarr could have a thing to make weapons malfunction(makng RoF inconsitent and on averaged lowered). maybe minmatar could get remote hacking equipment. there so much stuff the scouts could have to make the game more interesting. I guess im asking for the recon ships in eve on the ground. Kinda the main reason i play logi. its the most interesting role in the game. if they add this i would start to try more then minmatar hacking scout. Some nice ideas in your post, man. You ought to make a new thread in Features and Ideas. Let it get some attention, you never know.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 650	Posted - 2015.02.07 01:07:00 - [140] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Imp Smash wrote: My statement is this: Cloak is broken. Cloak needs to be 'buffed.' In this case buff means fixed. However, it cannot be due to scout's (and certain other suits coughminassaultcough) ridiculous hit detection cancelling abilities. Cloak has a high synergy with these abilities giving scouts an effective HP higher than an assault's. Plus the mobility to go be super high EHP at many places on the map. Adding cloak to damage cancelling abilities = something that is unreasonably hard to kill. No it doesn't. The synergy and effective hp I mean. The scout might, but the cloak has nothing to do with it, by that I mean other than being unable to see cloaked person completely. Ok that's a reasonable statement. I am cool with this. One could argue that scouts take no less damage when getting shot at due to cloak. It's not unreasonable to say so. I personally would argue that sometimes you can't see them completely or, especially in bright environments, lose them for a few seconds while they position reducing the accuracy of your fire. For example -- it's way harder to hit a cloaked scout in the head than an uncloaked scout. That helps mitigate a huge weakness of the light frame -- how much headshots hurt low hp suits. Just 12 hours ago in a Skirm I caught a cloak trying to sneak up on me, he immediately turned and bailed around a corner while cloaking. I saw him jump a railing to a lower level (he thought he was being sneaky) and I jumped over to fire after him. But I lost him visually for half a second. Then I saw the (in the environment we were in almost imperceptable glimmer) and fired. But that half a second to 1 second bought him enough time to make another corner and get too far ahead for me to catch up. He was at 20% or so armor left at the time. Basically 1 more shot. It saved him. So I would argue that cloak does in fact reduce damage from incoming fire. As you said earlier not at ALL in the same way that hit detection issues do. I agree with you 100% about how they are not the same in that respect. But I was pretty happy about that scout. He played it the way it well. Cloak was more of an escape tool than an assault tool (although he did use it to assault.) Seemed reasonable to me. But I see how you might not agree with how maybe the two are related. The concept of synergy between cloak and EHP is purely my opinion after all. You get a like from me.

Powerh8er Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 651	Posted - 2015.02.07 01:57:00 - [141] - Quote No.
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 892	Posted - 2015.02.07 02:04:00 - [142] - Quote Powerh8er wrote: No. lolPowerh8er GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 892	Posted - 2015.02.07 02:17:00 - [143] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Seriously, you are using the cloak wrong. The cloak is a tool for observation. A scout does not run and gun like an assault does. If you ran into an area, head first into a heavy, it should either be a complete fluke OR you went into a hostile objective. Let the assaults do that. Our job is to cut off reinforcements, stragglers and destroy equipment. The cloak is supposed to help you gain an advantageous position BEFORE you engage the enemy. This is a problem with KING HP, not with the cloak. EWAR is working well right now, HP mods are still broken very badly. E-war isn't working well enough for anyone to use precision enhancers, let alone range amplifiers. And it's really hard to observe when even though you dedicated most if not all your slots to E-war to just have it all negated by your equipment. The cloak is supposed to help you avoid enemies no matter where. Even if your assumption was right, it's really hard to find an advantageous position when you can't tell where the enemies are unless you see them with your own eyes, in which case you run the risk of being caught and inability to defend yourself because of the delay. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6442	Posted - 2015.02.07 02:26:00 - [144] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: [ E-war isn't working well enough for anyone to use precision enhancers, let alone range amplifiers. Range Amps are bad. They kinda have to be at the moment, or shotgunning and nova knifing wouldn't be viable playstyles, and Heavy/Logi blobs would be more broken than they already are. Precision Enhancers (on the other hand) are working quite well; they're currently the sixth most commonly used High Slot Module: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php I use them often. You should try them. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 892	Posted - 2015.02.07 02:31:00 - [145] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: gustavo acosta wrote: [ E-war isn't working well enough for anyone to use precision enhancers, let alone range amplifiers. Range Amps are bad. They kinda have to be at the moment, or shotgunning and nova knifing wouldn't be viable playstyles, and Heavy/Logi blobs would be more broken than they already are. Precision Enhancers (on the other hand) are working quite well; they're currently the sixth most commonly used High Slot Module: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php You should try them. Wow, 3.5% out all 5 high slot modules we have? That's impressive that's almost as impressive as a rotting log. I have seen the errors of my ways. I have tried them but using an active scanner gives a lot more versatility, and more room for tank, but maybe you're right. Sacrificing all my highs for something that I can get a better version of at the price of an equipment slot instead sounds like a great idea. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Jason1 Black FACTION WARFARE ARMY FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 0	Posted - 2015.02.08 20:14:00 - [146] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: they need to fix: -delay applying when you are not even cloaked -aim assist locking on to cloaked scout you havent seen -crosshair turning red when moving over cloaked scout you havent seen find solution for that and I am happy. YES. But i think the delay should be shortened. Other than that, its all the cloak REALLY needs.
Alex-ZX Valor Coalition Red Whines. 230	Posted - 2015.02.08 20:48:00 - [147] - Quote This a kind of topic really hard to carry, because many guys had issues with scouts and against scouts.. No one wants cloacks to be the super "op" thing that many said. There are some important things to talk about a buff in cloacks, because right now they are sucky as hell, and sometimes cloacks are important to play ambush because scanners that fit 3 of those Flux and scan 24/7. Actually making 2 scouts viable to counter scans properly without losing too much ehp, cal and gal. And also it depends in hoe this problem is going to be addressed. The ways I see to "fix" or buff cloacks are. 1.- make cloacks completely invisibles, because plenty if times one sees those blue things and laugh of them. Of course being completely invisible would have its drawbacks. I would keep the same time delay and cpu pg usage. At least they will be able to take positions, without being stupidly spotted, everytime they try to run.. 2.- Looks like some of us really want something like a combat cloack I would make it, but of course with some drawbacks, so ppl won't spam it stupidly as hell. pro combat cloack 30 secs active 20 cool down. No profile bonus, no delay, keep.the blue thing around it, so ppl can counter it. Maybe that it reduces some of ur scan radius, but not making it useless, like right now it is. Those are my thoughts, but as I said it really depends on how u want to address this problem, I never saw the issue with cloacks, but looks like many ppl had problems with them. Indeed they are useless to me right now, if I use cloaks is to play against proto teddies that scan 24/7 in ambush games, but it is completely stupid that it has the blue thing that tells everyone, here look at me and u can't use them even to hide or move into a point properly. Alex's modified ZX-030 HMG Luis' modified VC-107 CR Alex's modified VC-107 SMG *Owner of this beasts*


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