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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1661
   |
Posted - 2015.02.02 15:53:00 -
[31] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:Kain Spero wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:Imp Smash wrote:Potential methods to use cloak use:
1:Sneak around the battlefield.
2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy.
3: Scan
4: Hit them in the rear.
5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Standard issue Eyeballs and a friendly active scan. So some form of ewar? I cant just spin 360 all match making sure nobody sneaking up on me from back. Again, this is the same argument that was used against non-cloak users to defend themselves from sneak attack. It was just phrased differently:
- "Always check your surroundings..."
- "Never assume you are alone or safe..."
- etc.
I'm not sure if you were part of the group of scouts who made that argument. However, 'you' (in an abstract sense of the word) can't have your cake and eat it too. The situation you're describing sounds like the situation that non-cloak users are in when they fight cloak users. So, you should be able to use the same advice that was given before.
But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close.
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Alena Ventrallis
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
2516
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 16:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Imp Smash wrote:Potential methods to use cloak use:
1:Sneak around the battlefield.
2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy.
3: Scan
4: Hit them in the rear.
5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is.
Looking at the TV screen is a good start.
Listen to my muscle memory
Contemplate what I've been clinging to
Forty-six and two ahead of me
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Alena Ventrallis
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
2516
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Posted - 2015.02.02 16:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
501st Headstrong wrote:Can the range reduction at least go please? I mean really? We already have varying levels of ewar now, but i dont even clearly know the levels aside from close, mid, and long. Now nerf that by 85%. If a scout is for scouting, then why is it I have to be looking at a hostile to see them. That's not scouting anymore. Thats called Combat.
Because other people cannot see you. That's the point. The cloak isn't supposed to allow you to run around willy-nilly and shotgun people from out of nowhere. That's why it's been so OP. Plus it's not like it occludes your screen in any way (although that is an interesting idea) so you can still find people just fine. You just don't have your tacnet anymore.
Listen to my muscle memory
Contemplate what I've been clinging to
Forty-six and two ahead of me
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
206
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Posted - 2015.02.02 16:16:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is.
Let me extend my heartfelt, deeply sincere sympathies to you, as you complain about not knowing where the enemy is in a thread dedicated to buffing cloaks...
Seriously, I still get killed by de-cloaking shotgun scouts more than often enough to opine that cloaks don't need a buff. The suggestion that they are underpowered, should be ridiculed. On those rare occasions when I do spot a cloaked scout (as opposed to simply being assassinated by one, having had no idea he was present until I was down) they still manage to get away pretty frequently because of their speed.
How about scouts gain the Gal logi scan bonus, and lose the cloak bonus and second equipment slot? Then you'd be scouts instead of ninjas.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
General Tso's Alliance
365
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Posted - 2015.02.02 16:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:Imp Smash wrote:Potential methods to use cloak use:
1:Sneak around the battlefield.
2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy.
3: Scan
4: Hit them in the rear.
5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. What happened to the "Eyes are OP" statements thrown around before the cloak was nerfed. I think that the cloak should be less clunky, and there is room for improvement. But if "Eyes are OP" was a valid response for why the cloak should not have been nerfed in the first place, then it should be more than a valid response for how you should pick up the other non-cloaked suits on the field.
A thousand likes aren't enough.
All this crying about being scan blind from scouts is hilarious. |
Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
General Tso's Alliance
365
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Posted - 2015.02.02 16:24:00 -
[36] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:There was once a time that the consensus was that it wasn't that cloak scouts had range on scans while cloaked, but that scouts could over take the role of an assault because of their ability to brick tank. Passive scanning, like hp tanking is currently, was supposed to be something you benefit from if you dedicate your suit to it.
Passive scanning is a joke because the active scanner did not get nerfed accordingly. Because apparently giving up an equipment slot is much more taxing to a suit than sacrificing all HP capabilities to avoid detection, or see the some of enemy team.
I'm disgusted that even though the dev post did in fact say that all scans would lose directional, but they didn't. Active scanners are 100x better than passives at this point, they don't worry about the circle of e-war, they have a fixed, long range, they even show you exactly how the enemy is oriented. People may argue "but you can get under an active scanner in a scout," well it's not like any E-war scout is gonna scan them.
Beyond all that the scout's main equipment, the cloak, actually penalizes them further for something they dedicated their suit to. Yes the thing that's supposed to help the suit shine, actually hinders the scout from avoiding detection. Vision alone is obviously not enough considering all the weapons in game have a minimum of 30m, to entertain that thought is asinine especially with the amount of hp that people who actually dedicate suits to E-war get.
Anyway, I'm so very glad that it was the FOTM chasing "scouts" that decided that the only way to fix scouts was to buff assaults, and nerf e-war to the point of irrelevance. I mean it's not like E-war was the role of scout suits or anything right? It's not like there was a bigger issue that was completely ignored because another suit became viable, right?
While I agree the scout's role should be EWAR, and that role may have been nerfed too much, the solution isnt to buff the cloak again.
Even now in its nerfed state the cloak is an incredibly effective tool for getting the drop on people. |
Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
General Tso's Alliance
365
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 16:26:00 -
[37] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:they need to fix:
-delay applying when you are not even cloaked
-aim assist locking on to cloaked scout you havent seen
-crosshair turning red when moving over cloaked scout you havent seen
find solution for that and I am happy.
And how does Dust 514 know if you have or havent seen the scout? |
Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1662
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Posted - 2015.02.02 16:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Let me extend my heartfelt, deeply sincere sympathies to you, as you complain about not knowing where the enemy is in a thread dedicated to buffing cloaks... Seriously, I still get killed by de-cloaking shotgun scouts more than often enough to opine that cloaks don't need a buff. The suggestion that they are underpowered, should be ridiculed. On those rare occasions when I do spot a cloaked scout (as opposed to simply being assassinated by one, having had no idea he was present until I was down) they still manage to get away pretty frequently because of their speed. How about scouts gain the Gal logi scan bonus, and lose the cloak bonus and second equipment slot? Then you'd be scouts instead of ninjas.
So your whole argument is based on the fact that you get killed by shotgun scouts, maybe that is a shotgun problem. Also- you do know that losing the cloak bonus makes the cloak unusable by everything.
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Archduke Ferd1nand
Nos Nothi
33
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Posted - 2015.02.02 16:50:00 -
[39] - Quote
I would be fine with the eWAR castration part, except there really is no way to detect enemies that are behind you with the cloak up.
You cannot hear anything like footsteps, which is something I rely heavily on in my assault, which is just about as good as eWAR.
Killed by Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p on June 28 1914.
Last words: "Nova Knives and a Flaylock Pistol? I might just die laughing!"
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1665
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 16:52:00 -
[40] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:Can the range reduction at least go please? I mean really? We already have varying levels of ewar now, but i dont even clearly know the levels aside from close, mid, and long. Now nerf that by 85%. If a scout is for scouting, then why is it I have to be looking at a hostile to see them. That's not scouting anymore. Thats called Combat. Because other people cannot see you. That's the point. The cloak isn't supposed to allow you to run around willy-nilly and shotgun people from out of nowhere. That's why it's been so OP. Plus it's not like it occludes your screen in any way (although that is an interesting idea) so you can still find people just fine. You just don't have your tacnet anymore.
I can see a scout from 70m out and you guys can't spot me from 20m??
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Piercing Serenity
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
832
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Posted - 2015.02.02 19:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close.
You are correct. It is a scout. And it can scout out different positions with its high speed, as well. Being a scout isn't defined by "How strong is my radar", because if it was, then anyone with enough EWAR modules would be a "scout". Being a scout includes higher mobility, lower profile, etc.
To answer your question again, more succinctly, you can scout without being wholly dependent on your mini-map. You can also use your suit inherent speed and stamina bonuses to visually confirm enemies, and then escape without detection via your inherently reduced profile.
TL:DR - There is more than one way to be a scout
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
462
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Posted - 2015.02.02 19:43:00 -
[42] - Quote
Just give us more cloaking modules, with various advantages and disadvantages. Cloaking range nerf was kick in the lying solo-scout, and it did not even touch squad-scouts.
Gallente Speed Scout.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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Protected Void
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
385
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 21:52:00 -
[43] - Quote
Edit: never mind, I apparently can't read :-S |
Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1676
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 22:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close.
You are correct. It is a scout. And it can scout out different positions with its high speed, as well. Being a scout isn't defined by "How strong is my radar", because if it was, then anyone with enough EWAR modules would be a "scout". Being a scout includes higher mobility, lower profile, etc. To answer your question again, more succinctly, you can scout without being wholly dependent on your mini-map. You can also use your suit inherent speed and stamina bonuses to visually confirm enemies, and then escape without detection via your inherently reduced profile. TL:DR - There is more than one way to be a scout
So what do u have against Cloaking range nerf removed. Also, a min Assault can run at 10.4 m/s and have a DB under 25. Therefore min Assault is just a tankier faster Scout?
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John Psi
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
Steel Balls Alliance
1212
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Posted - 2015.02.02 22:37:00 -
[45] - Quote
God please no...
Please support fair play!
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Varoth Drac
State of Purgatory
557
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
Cloak range nerf is ok, makes for interesting gameplay. Switching between scanning and visual scanning. The cloak's visibility reduction allows you to have a look around without (hopefully) being spotted yourself. Plus cloaking has that whole submarine diving feeling to it, which fits well with scan blindness.
Things that should be fixed with cloaks:
They are too easy for experieced players to spot. Nothing more annoying than attempting a cloaked flank, just to be spotted anyway. Not advocating total invisibility whilst in motion, that would be too easy, just less shimmer.
They feel clunky. By all means keep the delay, but the thing where sprinting part way through the decloak cancels the weapon switch is super annoying. Also there also should only be a delay if you are actually cloaked, not for just switching out from holding the cloak. |
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
208
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 23:29:00 -
[47] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Let me extend my heartfelt, deeply sincere sympathies to you, as you complain about not knowing where the enemy is in a thread dedicated to buffing cloaks... Seriously, I still get killed by de-cloaking shotgun scouts more than often enough to opine that cloaks don't need a buff. The suggestion that they are underpowered, should be ridiculed. On those rare occasions when I do spot a cloaked scout (as opposed to simply being assassinated by one, having had no idea he was present until I was down) they still manage to get away pretty frequently because of their speed. How about scouts gain the Gal logi scan bonus, and lose the cloak bonus and second equipment slot? Then you'd be scouts instead of ninjas. So your whole argument is based on the fact that you get killed by shotgun scouts, maybe that is a shotgun problem. Also- you do know that losing the cloak bonus makes the cloak unusable by everything.
I'm not making an argument. You are. Badly.
Your argument is a form of special pleading: you want to have an easier time telling where your enemies are, while making it harder for your enemies to know where you are. Do you really not understand why getting what you want would be terrible for the game's balance? Do you not understand why complaining about having "no clue where the enemy is" in your 'buff cloaks" thread isn't persuasive to any of the players who don't run scouts?
I'm glad you made this thread though, so Ratatti can be reminded of why cloaks are in a pretty good place, and don't need to be buffed at all.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
208
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:They are too easy for experieced players to spot. Nothing more annoying than attempting a cloaked flank, just to be spotted anyway. Not advocating total invisibility whilst in motion, that would be too easy, just less shimmer.
The shimmer is just right. I sometimes catch a scout's shimmer out of the corner of my eye, only to lose them when I turn and scan for them with my cross-hair. Most of the time I catch a cloaked scout's shimmer, they're moving very stupidly, across a wide open space in dark lighting. That's exactly as it should be. You could even make the shimmer more visible and it wouldn't slow the good scouts down at all.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
7589
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Let me extend my heartfelt, deeply sincere sympathies to you, as you complain about not knowing where the enemy is in a thread dedicated to buffing cloaks... Seriously, I still get killed by de-cloaking shotgun scouts more than often enough to opine that cloaks don't need a buff. The suggestion that they are underpowered, should be ridiculed. On those rare occasions when I do spot a cloaked scout (as opposed to simply being assassinated by one, having had no idea he was present until I was down) they still manage to get away pretty frequently because of their speed. How about scouts gain the Gal logi scan bonus, and lose the cloak bonus and second equipment slot? Then you'd be scouts instead of ninjas. So your whole argument is based on the fact that you get killed by shotgun scouts, maybe that is a shotgun problem. Also- you do know that losing the cloak bonus makes the cloak unusable by everything. I'm not making an argument. You are. Badly. Your argument is a form of special pleading: you want to have an easier time telling where your enemies are, while making it harder for your enemies to know where you are. Do you really not understand why getting what you want would be terrible for the game's balance? Do you not understand why complaining about having "no clue where the enemy is" in your 'buff cloaks" thread isn't persuasive to any of the players who don't run scouts? I'm glad you made this thread though, so Ratatti can be reminded of why cloaks are in a pretty good place, and don't need to be buffed at all.
Rattati himself has actually mentioned making changes, and being open to changing the EWAR constraints in some way among other things.
The fact is, the cloak as it stands is a waste for many players.
It neither truly hides you, nor does it let you retaliate once seen.
The delay is glitched such that you don't have to actually have the cloak active, only equipped, to experience the delay.
If, God forbid, you sprint too soon after switching from cloak, not only do you have the delay (cloaked or not), but the game somehow switches you back to the cloak, forcing you to go through a delay AGAIN.
The combat nature of the cloak was an issue. The intended use of the cloak is to cross open ground safely for suits that have significant HP disadvantages.
The cloak is no longer fulfilling its role as intended and it is not a mistake to try and rectify that.
I don't think Rattati wants a useless cloak anymore than he wants an OP one.
As much as you think that he will think it in a good place and ignore us, I suggest that if he looks at his data and sees that the cloak is being under utilized, or significantly negatively influencing those that use it, he will just as likely ignore someone claiming the cloak is in a good place.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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DDx77
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
109
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Posted - 2015.02.03 00:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
I kinda like the way it is right now as far as scanning
because of the scanning limitations from the nerf they should have increased the cloaked times
I would love the cloaked times to go back to when they were originally introduced or a subtle increase such as:
22 sec for basic
37 sec for advanced
50 sec for proto
I don't think this would be game breaking and might solve the issue with the basic being somewhat useless and proto not worth skilling up to.
I would like to also suggest removing the cloak slow arm awkward delay when switching to your weapon ( which some claim affect logi's as well)
Simply require the player to press the cloak button again to decloak. The time it takes to do that and switch to your weapon should be about the same it takes now except it will be much more natural and fluid.
(This is a suggestion I picked up on another thread)
Like most nerfs, I think they were hit a bit hard and now multiple updates and game changing modes later the leash on them should be lessened a bit.
Boosting : Allowing the server to protect people from other countries from taking damage
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Varoth Drac
State of Purgatory
General Tso's Alliance
560
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Posted - 2015.02.03 00:23:00 -
[51] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:
The shimmer is just right. I sometimes catch a scout's shimmer out of the corner of my eye, only to lose them when I turn and scan for them with my cross-hair. Most of the time I catch a cloaked scout's shimmer, they're moving very stupidly, across a wide open space in dark lighting. That's exactly as it should be.
I appreciate your opinion, and you could be right. It's just that it feels a bit too common that I get spotted. I don't think you should be able to run right infront of someone without being seen, but quite often I'll be a good way away, trying to stay around or beyond my opponent's peripheral vision so as not to be seen, and yet I still get spotted. This combined with hearing a lot of people declare that they have stopped using cloaks, makes me feel that they could do with less shimmer.
If the cloak isn't for moving across open spaces unseen, what exactly is it for? Standing still and watching is pretty useful, as is cloaked hacking, but the main use of a cloak is for wide flanking. It just feels a bit poor at it's job at the moment.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think its massively underpowered or anything, just a bit. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6307
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Posted - 2015.02.03 01:41:00 -
[52] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:
The shimmer is just right. I sometimes catch a scout's shimmer out of the corner of my eye, only to lose them when I turn and scan for them with my cross-hair. Most of the time I catch a cloaked scout's shimmer, they're moving very stupidly, across a wide open space in dark lighting. That's exactly as it should be.
I appreciate your opinion, and you could be right. It's just that it feels a bit too common that I get spotted. I don't think you should be able to run right infront of someone without being seen, but quite often I'll be a good way away, trying to stay around or beyond my opponent's peripheral vision so as not to be seen, and yet I still get spotted. This combined with hearing a lot of people declare that they have stopped using cloaks, makes me feel that they could do with less shimmer. If the cloak isn't for moving across open spaces unseen, what exactly is it for? Standing still and watching is pretty useful, as is cloaked hacking, but the main use of a cloak is for wide flanking. It just feels a bit poor at it's job at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I don't think its massively underpowered or anything, just a bit.
Your assessment is spot on, Varoth.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Samantha Hunyz
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
163
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Posted - 2015.02.03 05:46:00 -
[53] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:
The shimmer is just right. I sometimes catch a scout's shimmer out of the corner of my eye, only to lose them when I turn and scan for them with my cross-hair. Most of the time I catch a cloaked scout's shimmer, they're moving very stupidly, across a wide open space in dark lighting. That's exactly as it should be.
I appreciate your opinion, and you could be right. It's just that it feels a bit too common that I get spotted. I don't think you should be able to run right infront of someone without being seen, but quite often I'll be a good way away, trying to stay around or beyond my opponent's peripheral vision so as not to be seen, and yet I still get spotted. This combined with hearing a lot of people declare that they have stopped using cloaks, makes me feel that they could do with less shimmer. If the cloak isn't for moving across open spaces unseen, what exactly is it for? Standing still and watching is pretty useful, as is cloaked hacking, but the main use of a cloak is for wide flanking. It just feels a bit poor at it's job at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I don't think its massively underpowered or anything, just a bit. Your assessment is spot on, Varoth. Queue for Ambush, grab a sniper rifle and find a hillside. See that a cloaked unit from 200 meters (!) is as easy to spot as any other. This is the case in all but "bright light" settings. It shouldn't be. If cloak isn't supposed to be used for crossing open terrain, for what is it supposed to be used?
I totally agree on this one. Those in my scout suit I use the cloak, once in a hide I tend to easily see and kill those blue glimmering trails.
When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
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Piercing Serenity
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
833
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Posted - 2015.02.03 05:57:00 -
[54] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Piercing Serenity wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close.
You are correct. It is a scout. And it can scout out different positions with its high speed, as well. Being a scout isn't defined by "How strong is my radar", because if it was, then anyone with enough EWAR modules would be a "scout". Being a scout includes higher mobility, lower profile, etc. To answer your question again, more succinctly, you can scout without being wholly dependent on your mini-map. You can also use your suit inherent speed and stamina bonuses to visually confirm enemies, and then escape without detection via your inherently reduced profile. TL:DR - There is more than one way to be a scout So what do u have against Cloaking range nerf removed. Also, a min Assault can run at 10.4 m/s and have a DB under 25. Therefore min Assault is just a tankier faster Scout?
If the basis of the argument for restore the radar range of scouts while in the cloak is "The current system does not allow me to be a scout", then a faulty line of reasoning is what I have against the cloaking range nerf removed. As I mentioned earlier, the inherent bonuses that the scout suit receives allows you to scout in different ways.
To address your comment about the Minmatar Assault, it is rather cherry picked. Yes, you have shown that you can put two Complex Kincats and two Complex profile dampeners on an Minmatar assault to try and copy the bonuses of a scout suit. This is a product of the fitting system in Dust. However, that proto Min Ass would still be out preformed by a scout with the same modules.
You can brick tank a scout suit to emulate an assault suit. It will function like an assault suit (Or even better, in the case of some scouts). But that is a straw man argument. We're not debating the ability for other suits to copy the functions of a role different from their own. We're debating how damaging the cloak - as it stands - is to the ability of a scout to preform its duties. And my position of "Not very damaging, all things considered" still stands
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
852
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Posted - 2015.02.03 06:33:00 -
[55] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:
If the basis of the argument for restore the radar range of scouts while in the cloak is "The current system does not allow me to be a scout", then a faulty line of reasoning is what I have against the cloaking range nerf removed. As I mentioned earlier, the inherent bonuses that the scout suit receives allows you to scout in different ways.
To address your comment about the Minmatar Assault, it is rather cherry picked. Yes, you have shown that you can put two Complex Kincats and two Complex profile dampeners on an Minmatar assault to try and copy the bonuses of a scout suit. This is a product of the fitting system in Dust. However, that proto Min Ass would still be out preformed by a scout with the same modules.
You can brick tank a scout suit to emulate an assault suit. It will function like an assault suit (Or even better, in the case of some scouts). But that is a straw man argument. We're not debating the ability for other suits to copy the functions of a role different from their own. We're debating how damaging the cloak - as it stands - is to the ability of a scout to preform its duties. And my position of "Not very damaging, all things considered" still stands
The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies. If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning.
Example: Assaults get a 25% reduction to weapons and grenades cpu/pg, well what if every weapon that was equipped on an assault, and fired would make the assault suit lose 85% of hp tank. I mean assaults are supposed to be good at killing right? It doesn't say that assaults need to be good at surviving.
That's the current state of the cloak and the scout. It would be fine if scouts didn't get a bonus to the cloak,or if it was completely removed, because then it wouldn't be a balancing issue in terms of role bonuses, but it is.
To address the disparity between the scout and assault. No, in no case of pure fitting capabilities, combat capabilities, and versatility, the assault will always win. The scout's ability to use passive scanning is also inferior to active scanners, so literally everyone is fine that the scout's role has been completely aborted in place of penalizing the real cause of disparity in the scout ranks, that being scouts benefiting from E-war even though said suit is mainly hp tanking.
It's not an issue to the community anymore because the assault has been buffed enough so that hp tanking a scout is "inferior" to an assault suit's hp tank.
All in all it doesn't really matter anymore, what's done is done, and there is very little chance that this will be revisited anytime soon so...
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1680
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Posted - 2015.02.03 15:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:Piercing Serenity wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close.
You are correct. It is a scout. And it can scout out different positions with its high speed, as well. Being a scout isn't defined by "How strong is my radar", because if it was, then anyone with enough EWAR modules would be a "scout". Being a scout includes higher mobility, lower profile, etc. To answer your question again, more succinctly, you can scout without being wholly dependent on your mini-map. You can also use your suit inherent speed and stamina bonuses to visually confirm enemies, and then escape without detection via your inherently reduced profile. TL:DR - There is more than one way to be a scout So what do u have against Cloaking range nerf removed. Also, a min Assault can run at 10.4 m/s and have a DB under 25. Therefore min Assault is just a tankier faster Scout? If the basis of the argument for restore the radar range of scouts while in the cloak is "The current system does not allow me to be a scout", then a faulty line of reasoning is what I have against the cloaking range nerf removed. As I mentioned earlier, the inherent bonuses that the scout suit receives allows you to scout in different ways. To address your comment about the Minmatar Assault, it is rather cherry picked. Yes, you have shown that you can put two Complex Kincats and two Complex profile dampeners on an Minmatar assault to try and copy the bonuses of a scout suit. This is a product of the fitting system in Dust. However, that proto Min Ass would still be out preformed by a scout with the same modules. You can brick tank a scout suit to emulate an assault suit. It will function like an assault suit (Or even better, in the case of some scouts). But that is a straw man argument. We're not debating the ability for other suits to copy the functions of a role different from their own. We're debating how damaging the cloak - as it stands - is to the ability of a scout to preform its duties. And my position of "Not very damaging, all things considered" still stands
Look-
When I use Precision enhancers and such- It costs me a shield extender (HP) so I depend on cloak to keep me from being seen in my 250 ehp flimsy scout suit but wait- I turn the cloak on and now my scan range is 5m. What did I gain? Turn the cloak off and I die trying to get scans, turn it on and I survive but I just wasted all my precision enhancers. This is one of the top reasons you see 453 shield caldari scouts, 223 shield gallante scouts, and 343 shield minmatar scouts. The Amarr doesn't really need a cloak, it's got tank.
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1680
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Posted - 2015.02.03 15:26:00 -
[57] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Piercing Serenity wrote:
If the basis of the argument for restore the radar range of scouts while in the cloak is "The current system does not allow me to be a scout", then a faulty line of reasoning is what I have against the cloaking range nerf removed. As I mentioned earlier, the inherent bonuses that the scout suit receives allows you to scout in different ways.
To address your comment about the Minmatar Assault, it is rather cherry picked. Yes, you have shown that you can put two Complex Kincats and two Complex profile dampeners on an Minmatar assault to try and copy the bonuses of a scout suit. This is a product of the fitting system in Dust. However, that proto Min Ass would still be out preformed by a scout with the same modules.
You can brick tank a scout suit to emulate an assault suit. It will function like an assault suit (Or even better, in the case of some scouts). But that is a straw man argument. We're not debating the ability for other suits to copy the functions of a role different from their own. We're debating how damaging the cloak - as it stands - is to the ability of a scout to preform its duties. And my position of "Not very damaging, all things considered" still stands
The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies. If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning. Example: Assaults get a 25% reduction to weapons and grenades cpu/pg, well what if every weapon that was equipped on an assault, and fired would make the assault suit lose 85% of hp tank. I mean assaults are supposed to be good at killing right? It doesn't say that assaults need to be good at surviving. That's the current state of the cloak and the scout. It would be fine if scouts didn't get a bonus to the cloak,or if it was completely removed, because then it wouldn't be a balancing issue in terms of role bonuses, but it is. To address the disparity between the scout and assault. No, in no case of pure fitting capabilities, combat capabilities, and versatility, the assault will always win. The scout's ability to use passive scanning is also inferior to active scanners, so literally everyone is fine that the scout's role has been completely aborted in place of penalizing the real cause of disparity in the scout ranks, that being scouts benefiting from E-war even though said suit is mainly hp tanking. It's not an issue to the community anymore because the assault has been buffed enough so that hp tanking a scout is "inferior" to an assault suit's hp tank. All in all it doesn't really matter anymore, what's done is done, and there is very little chance that this will be revisited anytime soon so...
+10000.
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Piercing Serenity
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Posted - 2015.02.03 16:06:00 -
[58] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies.If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning.
Example: Assaults get a 25% reduction to weapons and grenades cpu/pg, well what if every weapon that was equipped on an assault, and fired would make the assault suit lose 85% of hp tank. I mean assaults are supposed to be good at killing right? It doesn't say that assaults need to be good at surviving.
That's the current state of the cloak and the scout. It would be fine if scouts didn't get a bonus to the cloak,or if it was completely removed, because then it wouldn't be a balancing issue in terms of role bonuses, but it is.
To address the disparity between the scout and assault. No, in no case of pure fitting capabilities, combat capabilities, and versatility, the assault will always win. The scout's ability to use passive scanning is also inferior to active scanners, so literally everyone is fine that the scout's role has been completely aborted in place of penalizing the real cause of disparity in the scout ranks, that being scouts benefiting from E-war even though said suit is mainly hp tanking.
It's not an issue to the community anymore because the assault has been buffed enough so that hp tanking a scout is "inferior" to an assault suit's hp tank.
All in all it doesn't really matter anymore, what's done is done, and there is very little chance that this will be revisited anytime soon so...
- The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies.
I find this to be inaccurate, largely due to the arguments that "Eyes are OP", and "You should improve your situational awareness if you're getting ganked by scouts" posed by cloak users. As I mentioned earlier, being a scout is not bounded by how strong your radar is. All of the advice given to non-cloak users before the nerf was implemented should be applicable to cloak users, especially because the radar of a scout using a cloak is similar to the radar of every other suit in the game all of the time.
- If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning.
I will address this point, and your example here. The cloak is essentially an active module. Its use, and associated penalties, is a choice. If you are about to enter a high traffic area, then you have to chose to either rely on your inherent suit bonuses or your cloak field to move through the area. Both options have their merits and virtues, as well as their own issues. I agree that the way the delay works should be fixed, because it feels clunky. The range nerf, in its intent, is perfectly fine. I'm certainly not against tweaking numbers on the range nerf, however.
The fact that using a cloak field is an active choice making your example a false equivalence - besides for the fact that it is a poorly constructed analogy anyway. The intent of the cloak field is to be a defensive, positioning tool. The intent of a weapon is to be an offensive tool.
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1680
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Posted - 2015.02.03 16:22:00 -
[59] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:
The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies.If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning.
Example: Assaults get a 25% reduction to weapons and grenades cpu/pg, well what if every weapon that was equipped on an assault, and fired would make the assault suit lose 85% of hp tank. I mean assaults are supposed to be good at killing right? It doesn't say that assaults need to be good at surviving.
That's the current state of the cloak and the scout. It would be fine if scouts didn't get a bonus to the cloak,or if it was completely removed, because then it wouldn't be a balancing issue in terms of role bonuses, but it is.
To address the disparity between the scout and assault. No, in no case of pure fitting capabilities, combat capabilities, and versatility, the assault will always win. The scout's ability to use passive scanning is also inferior to active scanners, so literally everyone is fine that the scout's role has been completely aborted in place of penalizing the real cause of disparity in the scout ranks, that being scouts benefiting from E-war even though said suit is mainly hp tanking.
It's not an issue to the community anymore because the assault has been buffed enough so that hp tanking a scout is "inferior" to an assault suit's hp tank.
All in all it doesn't really matter anymore, what's done is done, and there is very little chance that this will be revisited anytime soon so...
- The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies.
I find this to be inaccurate, largely due to the arguments that "Eyes are OP", and "You should improve your situational awareness if you're getting ganked by scouts" posed by cloak users. As I mentioned earlier, being a scout is not bounded by how strong your radar is. All of the advice given to non-cloak users before the nerf was implemented should be applicable to cloak users, especially because the radar of a scout using a cloak is similar to the radar of every other suit in the game all of the time.
- If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning.
I will address this point, and your example here. The cloak is essentially an active module. Its use, and associated penalties, is a choice. If you are about to enter a high traffic area, then you have to chose to either rely on your inherent suit bonuses or your cloak field to move through the area. Both options have their merits and virtues, as well as their own issues. I agree that the way the delay works should be fixed, because it feels clunky. The range nerf, in its intent, is perfectly fine. I'm certainly not against tweaking numbers on the range nerf, however.
The fact that using a cloak field is an active choice making your example a false equivalence - besides for the fact that it is a poorly constructed analogy anyway. The intent of the cloak field is to be a defensive, positioning tool. The intent of a weapon is to be an offensive tool.
I don't see why Assaults don't get ganked by heavies but scouts do? There have been numerous times where a heavy has been like 7m behind me and I have no clue. It's called a scout suit for a reason. It's suppose to be king of ewar yet it is not and it have bonuses to a piece of equipment that penalizes their scouting role.
Also-no that is completely false, my freking heavy has a better ewar than a scout that is cloaked.
Also- again if scouts had ewar while cloaked... doesn't that mean they are doing their role?? They are hard to detect except they know where everything is. Rattati called this a double threat so he removed the ewar while cloaked but if you think about it, a heavy is a dual threat too.
Heavies has 2-3 times the hp of medium suits and have the highest DPS weapon in the game.This allows them to be proficient at point defense, no other suit is as good as the heavy at its role.
Now for scouts, almost any suit except heavies can be boss mode ewar. Not to mention the the gallante logi is possibly the best scout out there.
Also- in the scout suits circumstance- its role is soley based on the fact that it has a strong radar. You're so called "Eyes are OP" shouldn't really apply to the scout. It's Radar should be OP. the way you design scout- any suit can do it even a heavy. You go to a point and you look around for enemies- that role is no specific to the scout.
*in battle more coming soon*
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Piercing Serenity
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Posted - 2015.02.03 17:04:00 -
[60] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
I don't see why Assaults don't get ganked by heavies but scouts do? There have been numerous times where a heavy has been like 7m behind me and I have no clue. It's called a scout suit for a reason. It's suppose to be king of ewar yet it is not and it have bonuses to a piece of equipment that penalizes their scouting role.
Also-no that is completely false, my freking heavy has a better ewar than a scout that is cloaked.
Also- again if scouts had ewar while cloaked... doesn't that mean they are doing their role?? They are hard to detect except they know where everything is. Rattati called this a double threat so he removed the ewar while cloaked but if you think about it, a heavy is a dual threat too.
Heavies has 2-3 times the hp of medium suits and have the highest DPS weapon in the game.This allows them to be proficient at point defense, no other suit is as good as the heavy at its role.
Now for scouts, almost any suit except heavies can be boss mode ewar. Not to mention the the gallante logi is possibly the best scout out there.
Also- in the scout suits circumstance- its role is soley based on the fact that it has a strong radar.You're so called "Eyes are OP" shouldn't really apply to the scout. It's Radar should be OP. the way you design scout- any suit can do it even a heavy. You go to a point and you look around for enemies- that role is no specific to the scout.
*in battle more coming soon*
Between:
- "Scouts [should be] hard to detect, except they know where everything is..." (Bold)
- "...In the scout suit's circumstance - its role is solely based on the fact that is has a strong radar..." (Bold)
- "Your so called 'Eyes are OP' shouldn't really apply to scouts..." (Bold)
I can see that game balance is not what you are looking for. No suit can have the "Boss mode" Ewar that a scout can have unless it is gimped. You cannot compare a competitive scout fitting to a gimped assault fitting and call them equal. Gal Logis using an active scanner is also an active module of sorts, with its own draw backs. Finally, yes! You can use any suit to fill any role you want. Welcome to Dust514. However, some suits fulfill these roles better than others. There is no way to use a heavy suit as an effective scout. There are ways to build a Min Assault into a modest scout. That is one of the design goals of the fitting system - options and choice.
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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