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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8350
   |
Posted - 2015.02.04 05:01:00 -
[91] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for .
The shimmer is a draw back but a necessary one.
Yes, exactly a scout using nothing but E-war will never be as useful as an assault HP tanking, at least not in the current state of E-war. The fact that seeing 30m on a suit that has to sacrifice almost all their Hp capabilities, at least in a perfect world, is reason enough to remove the 85% reduction to range. Classifying scouts all into 1 playstyle is really bad reasoning, scouts can and should be able to perform other roles beyond just not being seen, and maybe seeing people. An assault that has no E-war equipped can still scan other suits from a decent distance, so that is a false comparison.
That sentiment would not be shared, the one about being fine with the cloak because it's "unique," if there penalty to what your role bonus encouraged, honestly.
You mean like movement speed reductions on armor plates and increased depleted delay/reduced shield capacity on shield modules..?
Tell me, what does our role bonus encourage, exactly..? Reduced fitting costs on weaponry? Dispersion reductions? Reload speed increases? Don't make me laugh dude, at least Scouts have a legitimate and verifiable role in this game. Assaults and Commandos are so mixed and meshed together no-one even know what they're supposed to do besides be cannon fodder for Scouts and Heavies.
Sir Dukey wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering... What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts". A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot. Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing... The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization. EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of? There is no point to precision if your range is like 7m. It's like a car, there is no point in big fuel tank if it is electric. You can't utilize precision with low range and you cant utilize big gas tank in a mostly electric car.
So I suppose that is you giving permission for Assault suits to have a longer short-range scan..? You act like having a small scan radius is somehow unique to Cloaky Scouts or something. #DealWithIt
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
860
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 05:13:00 -
[92] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
You mean like movement speed reductions on armor plates and increased depleted delay/reduced shield capacity on shield modules..?
Tell me, what does our role bonus encourage, exactly..? Reduced fitting costs on weaponry? Dispersion reductions? Reload speed increases? Don't make me laugh dude, at least Scouts have a legitimate and verifiable role in this game. Assaults and Commandos are so mixed and meshed together no-one even know what they're supposed to do besides be cannon fodder for Scouts and Heavies.
So I suppose that is you giving permission for Assault suits to have a longer short-range scan..? You act like having a small scan radius is somehow unique to Cloaky Scouts or something. #DealWithIt
No, if you have an armor module it doesn't negate anything on a suit completely. Whereas the cloak completely negates any passive scanning, no matter how many slots one dedicates to the suit.
Laugh all you want, the point of role bonuses is to steer players to do as the suit was intended. That's why sentinels get a reduction to heavy weapons, assaults to light weaponry. I've said earlier any issues regarding the cloak from the scout community, not the forum community, would be easily remedied if E-war or the cloak was completely removed. If you want to complain about disparity go make a thread about it. Don't come to a thread where players are having legitimate issues with how something is functioning. And no the scout doesn't have a clear role considering that the only piece of equipment that scouts get a role bonus to penalizes them for using a suit in its intended fashion. Assaults have better range than a cloaked scout so...
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1689
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Posted - 2015.02.04 05:32:00 -
[93] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:
The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for .
The shimmer is a draw back but a necessary one.
Yes, exactly a scout using nothing but E-war will never be as useful as an assault HP tanking, at least not in the current state of E-war. The fact that seeing 30m on a suit that has to sacrifice almost all their Hp capabilities, at least in a perfect world, is reason enough to remove the 85% reduction to range. Classifying scouts all into 1 playstyle is really bad reasoning, scouts can and should be able to perform other roles beyond just not being seen, and maybe seeing people. An assault that has no E-war equipped can still scan other suits from a decent distance, so that is a false comparison.
That sentiment would not be shared, the one about being fine with the cloak because it's "unique," if there penalty to what your role bonus encouraged, honestly.
You mean like movement speed reductions on armor plates and increased depleted delay/reduced shield capacity on shield modules..? Tell me, what does our role bonus encourage, exactly..? Reduced fitting costs on weaponry? Dispersion reductions? Reload speed increases? Don't make me laugh dude, at least Scouts have a legitimate and verifiable role in this game. Assaults and Commandos are so mixed and meshed together no-one even know what they're supposed to do besides be cannon fodder for Scouts and Heavies. Sir Dukey wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering... What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts". A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot. Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing... The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization. EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of? There is no point to precision if your range is like 7m. It's like a car, there is no point in big fuel tank if it is electric. You can't utilize precision with low range and you cant utilize big gas tank in a mostly electric car. So I suppose that is you giving permission for Assault suits to have a longer short-range scan..? You act like having a small scan radius is somehow unique to Cloaky Scouts or something. #DealWithIt
7m is exaggerating, it's more like 3m total due to the 85% range nerf when cloaked. Also, why does it makes sense that a heavy has longer scan range than scout?
Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
860
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 05:33:00 -
[94] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:
- The active scanner does not effect the scan range and precision of a suit, because it is one-directional while the suit's native scans are omni-directional. However, I understand that my problem with your statement can be considered one of semantics, so I will concede that an active scanner can be classified in the same way as a cloak field.
- The role of a scout is to visual and electronically confirm targets, and assassinate said targets by closing the distance quickly. Scouts get a bonus to complete all of these jobs. "Avoiding Detection" can be done in more ways than one.
- By definition of "being harder to see", being detected while using a cloak field is not a 50/50 probability event. If you are "harder to see", then then you are more likely to go unseen than to be detected. So, the ratio could be something like 60/40 or 90/10. Just anything greater than 50/50.
- The cloak can be used usefully when there are no enemies present - it can be used preemptively, for example. If you notice a suit within your 40m scan range, you can cloak before they see you and plan your route around - or behind - their position. It is a defensive and positional tool. Only one of those descriptors (defensive) requires enemy presence
- You are correct in saying that "When using the active scanner, you are 100% sure whether or not enemies are present". However, the information that "there are no enemies currently in the 90 degree (or less) field of view that you have" is not very powerful information. For all you know, the enemy could be there just a second after you scanned and you could be walking into a trap. Further more, the active scanner has a chance to fail even when someone is inside its radius. So, you will know that someone is in your arc, but not know anything more than that. The active scanner does not have that failure. If you are standing still, you will never become more opaque because someone is looking in your direction.
- Active scanners are mostly likely "more powerful" - by which I mean more commonly used - than active cloaks because they are easy to use relative to the utility they provide. You can scan and help your team immediately. The cost to benefit ratio may be skewed, but that discussion would belong in a "Nerf active scanners" thread. Cloaks have a higher skill curve, a higher potential reward, and a higher trade off. Personally, I would rather be able to sneak up and kill a logi repping a heavy than know that there is a logi repping a heavy 20m in front of me.
6. No the active scanner is more powerful-as in more resourceful, more range, equal to or greater precision than a scout's scans-180 degrees of 100m scans after a 20 second cool down is much better than 30m at the price of x amount of lows and highs. No they do not have a higher reward because skill curve, they have as much reward as any other module that may or may not shoot you in the foot, oh wait the cloak is the only equipment that penalizes you for what you fit on your suit huh...
5. 90 degree field if you don't swing the active scanner like people who use the active scanner do. If scanners didn't have a fixed, long range that shows directionals(which was supposed to be removed) it wouldn't be an issue, but again that's beside the point.
4. There is no chance anyone will ever see anyone at 40m with passive scans, unless they're a logi, so let me knock that right out of your head right now. Even if you could the 6m of range that the cloak will leave you with won't let you predict how that suit is going to move. So positioning is out the window.
3. 50-50 is not far fetched by any means some people will see you and some people won't. There's no way of know whose seen you and who hasn't therefore it's 50-50.
2. The issue is the cloak working against avoiding detection, don't deviate from that just because you can't come up with a good response to it. The scout bonus only applies to cloak fitting optimization nothing else, fundamentally meaning to use the cloak, even if you were right how do nova knife damage increases help avoid detection, here's a tip genius, they don't.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
|
Piercing Serenity
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
839
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 06:32:00 -
[95] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
6. No the active scanner is more powerful-as in more resourceful, more range, equal to or greater precision than a scout's scans-180 degrees of 100m scans after a 20 second cool down is much better than 30m at the price of x amount of lows and highs. No they do not have a higher reward because skill curve, they have as much reward as any other module that may or may not shoot you in the foot, oh wait the cloak is the only equipment that penalizes you for what you fit on your suit huh...
5. 90 degree field if you don't swing the active scanner like people who use the active scanner do. If scanners didn't have a fixed, long range that shows directionals(which was supposed to be removed) it wouldn't be an issue, but again that's beside the point.
4. There is no chance anyone will ever see anyone at 40m with passive scans, unless they're a logi, so let me knock that right out of your head right now. Even if you could the 6m of range that the cloak will leave you with won't let you predict how that suit is going to move. So positioning is out the window.
3. 50-50 is not far fetched by any means some people will see you and some people won't. There's no way of know whose seen you and who hasn't therefore it's 50-50.
2. The issue is the cloak working against avoiding detection, don't deviate from that just because you can't come up with a good response to it. The scout bonus only applies to cloak fitting optimization nothing else, fundamentally meaning to use the cloak, even if you were right how do nova knife damage increases help avoid detection, here's a tip genius, they don't.
Point 1:
I may have understated the usefulness of active scanners. That's fair. However, I still believe that the utility that can be gained by using a cloak is higher than the utility gained by using an active scanner. Using active scanners just casts a much larger net, on a community that tends to not run dampeners on their suits. However, that's an opinion that I've stated a few times before. If you disagree with it then we might just disagree more fundamentally, in which case I'd probably have to sit on the thoughts in this thread a little longer and just think.
Point 2:
As you mentioned, this is a separate issue for a different thread
Point 3:
I do not know what at what range a sufficiently precision-tanked scout can see the majority of suits, so I will take your word that it is some range less than 40m. However, at ranges less than 40m, you don't need to use your radar to predict the general motion of the suit. You can stay out of LoS and be hidden to the suit until he is close enough for you to feel confident in predicting his motion, then activate your cloak. However, I think that you are overstating the difficulty in predicting the motion of someone at 40m. Most people do not run random patterns to throw off anyone who might be looking. They generally run the shortest distance between themselves and whatever objective - supply depot, nanohive, etc - they are pursuing.
Point 4:
As I said earlier, the nature of "being more difficult to see" inherently makes the odds slanted towards "not detected". Some will see you, but less people will see you than if you were in the same position without the cloak.
Point 5: The cloak works against EWAR detection due to the visual "protection" it offers. I'm not deviating from any point because I can't think of anything. It's just because I disagree with you. The scout receives other bonuses native to the suit that allow it to scout in other ways. I'm not sure why being a scout must either be "Having complete EWAR superiority all of the time" or "We are no longer scouts". As I mentioned before, I'm not against tweaking the values of the range nerf. That's just a problem of degree.
Finally, the extra jabs and comments are pretty unnecessary. We're having a simple discussion. I'm not angry at you in the least. I'm arguing about the utility of equipment in a video game. This is not to say that I don't care about DUST - I truly do. It's only to make the point that having all of this tension over the discussion is pretty unwarranted, given the context.
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
862
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 07:04:00 -
[96] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:\
Point 3:
I do not know what at what range a sufficiently precision-tanked scout can see the majority of suits, so I will take your word that it is some range less than 40m. However, at ranges less than 40m, you don't need to use your radar to predict the general motion of the suit. You can stay out of LoS and be hidden to the suit until he is close enough for you to feel confident in predicting his motion, then activate your cloak. However, I think that you are overstating the difficulty in predicting the motion of someone at 40m. Most people do not run random patterns to throw off anyone who might be looking. They generally run the shortest distance between themselves and whatever objective - supply depot, nanohive, etc - they are pursuing.
Point 5: The cloak works against EWAR detection due to the visual "protection" it offers. I'm not deviating from any point because I can't think of anything. It's just because I disagree with you. The scout receives other bonuses native to the suit that allow it to scout in other ways. I'm not sure why being a scout must either be "Having complete EWAR superiority all of the time" or "We are no longer scouts". As I mentioned before, I'm not against tweaking the values of the range nerf. That's just a problem of degree.
Finally, the extra jabs and comments are pretty unnecessary. We're having a simple discussion. I'm not angry at you in the least. I'm arguing about the utility of equipment in a video game. This is not to say that I don't care about DUST - I truly do. It's only to make the point that having all of this tension over the discussion is pretty unwarranted, given the context.
If I can't punctuate my points with insults, there is no point, and no fun.
Point V/ IV: "Protection" is a strong word, and it does not describe the cloak at all. With the delay and removal of scans there is nothing protective about the cloak. There are no weapons that have a small range, besides the shotgun, being cloaked does not prevent any weapon from shooting you dead before you can pull out a weapon to defend yourself. And a properly dampened scout will also have issues with running away considering most if not all of their lows are dedicated to profile dampening, none to range generally, not to mention range amplifiers don't give enough range to justify the slot usage, and the cloak. I see no issue in a scout having complete e-war superiority all of the time, no one seems to mind that assaults have complete mobile assault superiority, logi's have complete equipment superiority, heavies have complete tank and gank superiority.
Point III: We aren't talking about NPCs here no matter how many new players are killed in pubs, one cannot simply predict the motion of any suit from 40m. A player is controlling that character, and no matter what anyone thinks there is no guarantee that said player will move in a way that is predictable. In a competitive match where balanced should be equated from, no player will run willy nilly from place to place without worrying about another suit in the area. Without knowing the pattern in which the enemy is moving, one cannot know whether or not they are being baited. Even is Scouts could see their enemies while cloaked they could still be baited. If a scout does happen to use all their slots for E-war(which again in the current meta is an awful idea) they will not have sufficient HP to retaliate or escape a threat when seen. So I still don't see an issue with cloaks allowing for passive scanning while cloaked.
Point I :Your belief is misguided, but I'll allow you to have your wrong opinion without further derailing the thread.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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taxi bastard
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
383
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 07:37:00 -
[97] - Quote
i have given up using the cloak, but its not a bad thing as i started using a light frame well before there was cloaks and i did fine then and i am doing ok now.
EWAR - its still pretty good if you sacrifice for it, though range enhancers need a buff!
here is my favorite caldari advanced scout fit atm
2 precision enhancers
1 complex sheild extender
2 complex codebreakers
ACR
KN
uplink
needle
you see most scouts when cloaked, and they simply don't expect you too. you can hack in relative safety because you will pick up most of what is approaching. ok its not got great EHP, nor is it very quick but its good at its job.
"Attention Axiom shoppers try red its the new blue" - WALL-E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1BQPV-iCkU
CCP's update
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8376
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 14:59:00 -
[98] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
You mean like movement speed reductions on armor plates and increased depleted delay/reduced shield capacity on shield modules..?
Tell me, what does our role bonus encourage, exactly..? Reduced fitting costs on weaponry? Dispersion reductions? Reload speed increases? Don't make me laugh dude, at least Scouts have a legitimate and verifiable role in this game. Assaults and Commandos are so mixed and meshed together no-one even know what they're supposed to do besides be cannon fodder for Scouts and Heavies.
So I suppose that is you giving permission for Assault suits to have a longer short-range scan..? You act like having a small scan radius is somehow unique to Cloaky Scouts or something. #DealWithIt
No, if you have an armor module it doesn't negate anything on a suit completely. Whereas the cloak completely negates any passive scanning, no matter how many slots one dedicates to the suit. Laugh all you want, the point of role bonuses is to steer players to do as the suit was intended. That's why sentinels get a reduction to heavy weapons, assaults to light weaponry. I've said earlier any issues regarding the cloak from the scout community, not the forum community, would be easily remedied if E-war or the cloak was completely removed. If you want to complain about disparity go make a thread about it. Don't come to a thread where players are having legitimate issues with how something is functioning. And no the scout doesn't have a clear role considering that the only piece of equipment that scouts get a role bonus to penalizes them for using a suit in its intended fashion. Assaults have better range than a cloaked scout so... Also, just realized you just pulled that pre-buff assault argument right out of you rectum, What the heck man I thought this was supposed to be a discussion and you're bringing up irrelevant information. The assault is currently the meta so I don't know why you're complaining their role is to kill, and they excel at it...
There are two scouts that have anything to do with precision as far as role: The Caldari, with it's increase scan range and the Gallente, with it's (minor) bonus to precision.
Of which, -both- of them receive a profile reduction built into the suit through skills and that does not include the use of modules. While I could -maybe- see the argument that it's "going against what the role intends", that logic only applies to these two racial suits considering the Amarr and Minmatar are geared for different things. Even still, you're asking for semi-invisibility, tactical invisibility, and the ability to see things on tacnet without having to change your fittings at all.
If they removed the penalty completely, you would have the best of everything in EWAR and not have to fit anything besides a cloaking device. What drawbacks are there? What stops a scout from brick tanking and just being generally god mode over everything else in that case?
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
|
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
863
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 17:16:00 -
[99] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
There are two scouts that have anything to do with precision as far as role: The Caldari, with it's increase scan range and the Gallente, with it's (minor) bonus to precision.
Of which, -both- of them receive a profile reduction built into the suit through skills and that does not include the use of modules. While I could -maybe- see the argument that it's "going against what the role intends", that logic only applies to these two racial suits considering the Amarr and Minmatar are geared for different things. Even still, you're asking for semi-invisibility, tactical invisibility, and the ability to see things on tacnet without having to change your fittings at all.
If they removed the penalty completely, you would have the best of everything in EWAR and not have to fit anything besides a cloaking device. What drawbacks are there? What stops a scout from brick tanking and just being generally god mode over everything else in that case?
EDIT: That being said, if Scouts aren't slayers then what good is having precision on the cloaking device for any reason other than to gimmick-predator-kill whoever you're trying to ride up on..?
Actually there are 3 Amarr being the one you forgot, however all the scouts get a role bonus to the cloak so that means they are all encouraged to use it. I honestly don't see an issue with being in a paper thin suit(because that's what it takes to scan anything beyond 20m range)being semi-hard to see, and having 30m of scan range where you can see most enemies, when you've dedicated your suit to it. Again you wouldn't sing the same tune if every armor repairer made your assault lose all hp tanking abilities.
That's not true at all, even in E-wars current state it takes too much resources to have suit that's good at scanning, and good at bricking. Though I do agree that the bonuses should have been moved to module efficacy to prevent brick tanking scouts from gaining any benefit from their bonus, however in the current state of things it would be a bad idea, and nobody cares enough to push for it anymore. Beyond that brick tanking scouts are a farce to player, assault have taken the reigns of the best slayer, as it should be.
The argument about scouts shouldn't be good at every type of E-war is a funny one. Apparently no one has an issue when someone has sufficient armor reps and armor tank, or sufficient shield tank, regeneration, and delay reduction, but when the scouts try it with their intended role everyone has to wet themselves about it. Tell me, what stops a gallente assault from having 30+hp/s reps and 700 ehp, what's stopping a caldari assault from getting 76 hp/s with a 2 second delay and 500+ shields? Nothing at all.
The reason that scouts have cloaks and "scans" is because if they dedicate their suit to E-war they won't have sufficient HP to survive engagement thus they must avoid the engagement until they have ample time/chance to attack without throwing their suit away like an idiot.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8429
|
Posted - 2015.02.05 05:01:00 -
[100] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
There are two scouts that have anything to do with precision as far as role: The Caldari, with it's increase scan range and the Gallente, with it's (minor) bonus to precision.
Of which, -both- of them receive a profile reduction built into the suit through skills and that does not include the use of modules. While I could -maybe- see the argument that it's "going against what the role intends", that logic only applies to these two racial suits considering the Amarr and Minmatar are geared for different things. Even still, you're asking for semi-invisibility, tactical invisibility, and the ability to see things on tacnet without having to change your fittings at all.
If they removed the penalty completely, you would have the best of everything in EWAR and not have to fit anything besides a cloaking device. What drawbacks are there? What stops a scout from brick tanking and just being generally god mode over everything else in that case?
EDIT: That being said, if Scouts aren't slayers then what good is having precision on the cloaking device for any reason other than to gimmick-predator-kill whoever you're trying to ride up on..?
Actually there are 3 Amarr being the one you forgot, however all the scouts get a role bonus to the cloak so that means they are all encouraged to use it. I honestly don't see an issue with being in a paper thin suit(because that's what it takes to scan anything beyond 20m range)being semi-hard to see, and having 30m of scan range where you can see most enemies, when you've dedicated your suit to it. Again you wouldn't sing the same tune if every armor repairer made your assault lose all hp tanking abilities. That's not true at all, even in E-wars current state it takes too much resources to have suit that's good at scanning, and good at bricking. Though I do agree that the bonuses should have been moved to module efficacy to prevent brick tanking scouts from gaining any benefit from their bonus, however in the current state of things it would be a bad idea, and nobody cares enough to push for it anymore. Beyond that brick tanking scouts are a farce to player, assault have taken the reigns of the best slayer, as it should be. The argument about scouts shouldn't be good at every type of E-war is a funny one. Apparently no one has an issue when someone has sufficient armor reps and armor tank, or sufficient shield tank, regeneration, and delay reduction, but when the scouts try it with their intended role everyone has to wet themselves about it. Tell me, what stops a gallente assault from having 30+hp/s reps and 700 ehp, what's stopping a caldari assault from getting 76 hp/s with a 2 second delay and 500+ shields? Nothing at all. The reason that scouts have cloaks and "scans" is because if they dedicate their suit to E-war they won't have sufficient HP to survive engagement thus they must avoid the engagement until they have ample time/chance to attack without throwing their suit away like an idiot.
No-one has an issue with someone having sufficient armor reps and armor tank because it has hard-counters: Mass Drivers, Core Locus Grenades, Small Missile Turrets, HMGs.
No-one has an issue with someone having sufficient shield tank, regeneration, and delay reduction because it has hard-counters: Scrambler Rifles, Flux Grenades, getting a single round on them with any weapon to prevent shields from recharging.
You know what the counter is for EWAR? EWAR. You counter profile dampeners by running an Active Scanner, which in the case of the Focused scanner (the one geared toward Scouts) has an insanely high cool-down, insanely low angle, and is so incredibly niche that the only suit it's really viable on is a Gallente Logistics... Which is even more amusing because there was this initiative (that passed, btw) for -ALL- Scouts to be able to get beneath a Focused Scanner even on a Gallente Logi with max skills.
So please explain to me what the counter is for that?
As far as range and precision, are we expecting that every other player is now required to hopelessly profile tank in place of their main tank -just- to deal with Scouts that have both Tactical Invisibility and Visual Invisibility..? What is the counter toward this if I can never profile dampen low enough to get beneath a Scout's precision, let alone a Gallente Logi's..?
Do you see the flaw here or are you still convinced that Cloaky Scouts have some unfair disadvantage?
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6388
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Posted - 2015.02.05 05:04:00 -
[101] - Quote
Beating scans isn't beating the game, Aeon.
If it were, Assaults would not be outselling Scouts at nearly 2:1.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
623
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Posted - 2015.02.05 05:14:00 -
[102] - Quote
All this cloak discussion -- yet OP doesn't make any comment on how scouts (any fast frame really) can lag through frames and ignore damage? |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6388
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Posted - 2015.02.05 05:20:00 -
[103] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:All this cloak discussion -- yet OP doesn't make any comment on how scouts (any fast frame really) can lag through frames and ignore damage?
Wiggle-wiggle, framerate and hit detection are separate issues from Cloak.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
869
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Posted - 2015.02.05 05:24:00 -
[104] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
No-one has an issue with someone having sufficient armor reps and armor tank because it has hard-counters: Mass Drivers, Core Locus Grenades, Small Missile Turrets, HMGs.
No-one has an issue with someone having sufficient shield tank, regeneration, and delay reduction because it has hard-counters: Scrambler Rifles, Flux Grenades, getting a single round on them with any weapon to prevent shields from recharging.
You know what the counter is for EWAR? EWAR. You counter profile dampeners by running an Active Scanner, which in the case of the Focused scanner (the one geared toward Scouts) has an insanely high cool-down, insanely low angle, and is so incredibly niche that the only suit it's really viable on is a Gallente Logistics... Which is even more amusing because there was this initiative (that passed, btw) for -ALL- Scouts to be able to get beneath a Focused Scanner even on a Gallente Logi with max skills.
So please explain to me what the counter is for that?
As far as range and precision, are we expecting that every other player is now required to hopelessly profile tank in place of their main tank -just- to deal with Scouts that have both Tactical Invisibility and Visual Invisibility..? What is the counter toward this if I can never profile dampen low enough to get beneath a Scout's precision, let alone a Gallente Logi's..?
Do you see the flaw here or are you still convinced that Cloaky Scouts have some unfair disadvantage?
The counter of E-war is not E-war, anyone with sufficient E-war will go down faster than butter the moment anyone else has their sights on them. The scanner should not beat every form of E-war because that would be more of an issue of everyone on the enemy team being unable to avoid scans, thus having stealth-play completely nullified. Just because a scout can see an enemy on passive scans that does not necessarily mean it will be able to do anything about said enemy. Countering E-war is as simple as killing a 300 EHP suit, literally anyone can do it. And no the gal-logi isn't the only suit that can run an active scanner effectively, any other suit can use an active scanner and scan 90% of the team, the other 10% being dampened scouts, if that.
The reason no one has an issue with armor and shields not having a penalty is because everyone would be affected by it and no one would want it. Everyone's fine with the penalties on the scout because they've all moved to the assault and couldn't give a flying turd about any other class in game.
No, no one cares if other suits profile tank, the game is all about choice. If I should choose to E-war tank, it should be a just as valid choice as HP tanking. E-war is not some god-send power that will allow you to dodge all the bullets thrown at you, and tank millions of hp. All it is is to allow low hp suits to avoid and ambush enemies, that's it.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
627
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Posted - 2015.02.05 07:58:00 -
[105] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Imp Smash wrote:All this cloak discussion -- yet OP doesn't make any comment on how scouts (any fast frame really) can lag through frames and ignore damage? Wiggle-wiggle, framerate and hit detection are separate issues from Cloak.
Not really when cloak exasperates hit detection issues.
More like, can't buff cloak to work proper till hit detection is fixed. Then cloak can be reverted to original incarnation (weapon swap while cloak included!) and not be OP. |
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
871
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Posted - 2015.02.05 08:05:00 -
[106] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:
Not really when cloak exasperates hit detection issues.
More like, can't buff cloak to work proper till hit detection is fixed. Then cloak can be reverted to original incarnation (weapon swap while cloak included!) and not be OP.
I have no idea where your assumption is coming from, but it's wrong. Hit detection is messed up to begin with and strafing is what makes it worse(if the detection system can't even tell if a non-moving target was hit it won't get better with people frantically moving to avoid being hit)
This issue applies to assaults, logies, heavies, scouts, and even commandos, so by your logic we should nerf all of those classes as well until hit detection is fixed right?
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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IAmDuncanIdaho II
Nos Nothi
1334
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Posted - 2015.02.05 08:42:00 -
[107] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of?
Don't spread lies Aeon. You were no angel, you sure were not polite.
You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all.
~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6392
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Posted - 2015.02.05 13:02:00 -
[108] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Imp Smash wrote:All this cloak discussion -- yet OP doesn't make any comment on how scouts (any fast frame really) can lag through frames and ignore damage? Wiggle-wiggle, framerate and hit detection are separate issues from Cloak. Not really when cloak exasperates hit detection issues. More like, can't buff cloak to work proper till hit detection is fixed. Then cloak can be reverted to original incarnation (weapon swap while cloak included!) and not be OP.
We've no reason to believe that Cloak has any effect on Hit Detection. Further, the original incarnation of cloak was too much. Its active damp bonus permitted Assault Lite to tank and beat scans while the lack of decloak delay and fire-from-cloak facilitated use in frontal attack. It was as much an Assault tool as a sneak tool, and it was nothing short of imbalanced.
The only things about cloak which I think should change:
* Less obvious shimmer; reduced visibility at range in all maps/moods
* Decloak delay fix; delay shouldn't be activated unless decloaking
If these changes are insufficient to make Cloak competitive, then perhaps we can consider less decloak delay and slightly less severe cloak-blind.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
214
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Posted - 2015.02.05 15:51:00 -
[109] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:If these changes are insufficient to make Cloak competitive,...
Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts.
Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts.
Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP.
I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
876
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Posted - 2015.02.05 16:12:00 -
[110] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:
Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts.
Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts.
Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP.
I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm.
You don't know what you're talking about period. If you honestly think that a class shouldn't be balanced because you don't like the class, you should stop any form of thought process you have had in ever, because it's wrong. You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting.
If the 5 second delay on the cloak isn't enough for you to counter a shotgun scout that's a fault on your end. If you can't avoid a cloaked scout throwing RE's, a full 10 second set up period, that's a fault on your end. TTK is well below both time values.
But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
455
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Posted - 2015.02.05 16:37:00 -
[111] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
[...]
How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of?
Adipem, Llast, King, Arkena, myself and maybe 3 others were very polite and nice to you and actually EXCITED about your new experiment. I was even more excited about the prospect of gaining another regular. Only -2- people (that may even have been the same person using an alt for all I know) got immature. I honestly hope you didn't ignore everyone else during that :( . |
TerranKnight87
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
112
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Posted - 2015.02.05 16:42:00 -
[112] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:
Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts.
Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts.
Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP.
I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm.
You don't know what you're talking about period. If you honestly think that a class shouldn't be balanced because you don't like the class, you should stop any form of thought process you have had in ever, because it's wrong. You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting. If the 5 second delay on the cloak isn't enough for you to counter a shotgun scout that's a fault on your end. If you can't avoid a cloaked scout throwing RE's, a full 10 second set up period, that's a fault on your end. TTK is well below both time values. But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested.
Smashed it mate.
People who play a class almost exclusively are not a valid point of reference for balance ever, even if it is proto. There are those of us who have everything at proto across chars and play it all, we know what actual balance is.
I've not played for about 5 months now though so i can't really comment on anything but i'm getting back on dust next month. I have heard that it is very balanced at the mo.
This is TechMechMeds tanker.
Redeployside - You are just in time for minimal immersion edition of ps2.
Enjoy.
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
455
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Posted - 2015.02.05 16:48:00 -
[113] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:If these changes are insufficient to make Cloak competitive,... Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts. Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts. Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP. I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm.
Gyn, what Adipem is saying that those 2 issues are the only thing that the cloak needs in order to make us happy. One being the glitch where you can't get off cloak if you started running during the switch, and the other the poor design choice of adding a delay to the switch if you are NOT cloaked at all.
We've seen a sizeable group of scouts abandon the cloak because of how it gets stuck, and I think that's what he means by making it competitive. With that said, many of us continue to use the cloak despite the glitchiness of its operation, myself included.
The cloak DOES NOT need any buffs at this point, just bugs fixed. I am convinced it will be fine after that. It needs to not have a delay to swtch when you aren't cloaked to begin with. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6400
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Posted - 2015.02.05 17:18:00 -
[114] - Quote
@ Gyn Wallace
That's a great question. I'll get back with you momentarily.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1711
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Posted - 2015.02.05 21:20:00 -
[115] - Quote
TerranKnight87 wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:
Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts.
Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts.
Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP.
I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm.
You don't know what you're talking about period. If you honestly think that a class shouldn't be balanced because you don't like the class, you should stop any form of thought process you have had in ever, because it's wrong. You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting. If the 5 second delay on the cloak isn't enough for you to counter a shotgun scout that's a fault on your end. If you can't avoid a cloaked scout throwing RE's, a full 10 second set up period, that's a fault on your end. TTK is well below both time values. But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested. Smashed it mate. People who play a class almost exclusively are not a valid point of reference for balance ever, even if it is proto. There are those of us who have everything at proto across chars and play it all, we know what actual balance is. I've not played for about 5 months now though so i can't really comment on anything but i'm getting back on dust next month. I have heard that it is very balanced at the mo.
I'm a Heavy, Assault and Scout. A lot of us do not only play one role. I as an Assault can say it is way easier to dominate using assault than it is with scout.
Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
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TerranKnight87
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
118
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Posted - 2015.02.05 21:25:00 -
[116] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:TerranKnight87 wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:
Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts.
Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts.
Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP.
I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm.
You don't know what you're talking about period. If you honestly think that a class shouldn't be balanced because you don't like the class, you should stop any form of thought process you have had in ever, because it's wrong. You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting. If the 5 second delay on the cloak isn't enough for you to counter a shotgun scout that's a fault on your end. If you can't avoid a cloaked scout throwing RE's, a full 10 second set up period, that's a fault on your end. TTK is well below both time values. But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested. Smashed it mate. People who play a class almost exclusively are not a valid point of reference for balance ever, even if it is proto. There are those of us who have everything at proto across chars and play it all, we know what actual balance is. I've not played for about 5 months now though so i can't really comment on anything but i'm getting back on dust next month. I have heard that it is very balanced at the mo. I'm a Heavy, Assault and Scout. A lot of us do not only play one role. I as an Assault can say it is way easier to dominate using assault than it is with scout.
Isn't that how it should be?. That's also more to do with how you play than anything and an assault should dominate as that's what it's there for, to assault.
Who's a lot of us because i was talking in general about anyone who plays class x almost exclusively..
This is TechMechMeds tanker.
Redeployside - You are just in time for minimal immersion edition of ps2.
Enjoy.
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tritan abbattere
DBAG CORE
17
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Posted - 2015.02.05 21:32:00 -
[117] - Quote
Personally i was hoping more for what it is like in eve. When you get close to an enemy you decloak. Otherwise no one can see you while your running it. say like 10 meters or something. Probably me being crazy though.
I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
880
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Posted - 2015.02.05 22:13:00 -
[118] - Quote
tritan abbattere wrote:Personally i was hoping more for what it is like in eve. When you get close to an enemy you decloak. Otherwise no one can see you while your running it. say like 10 meters or something. Probably me being crazy though.
Well that wouldn't be awful, if all other penalties to the cloak were removed...
It wouldn't be totally great, but still...
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6407
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Posted - 2015.02.05 22:23:00 -
[119] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:tritan abbattere wrote:Personally i was hoping more for what it is like in eve. When you get close to an enemy you decloak. Otherwise no one can see you while your running it. say like 10 meters or something. Probably me being crazy though. Well that wouldn't be awful, if all other penalties to the cloak were removed... It wouldn't be totally great, but still...
Perfect invisibility out to 10 meters with no decloak delay and no cloak-blind.
That'd be better than great, Gustavo. It'd be broken beyond HMG broken.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
880
|
Posted - 2015.02.05 22:25:00 -
[120] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:tritan abbattere wrote:Personally i was hoping more for what it is like in eve. When you get close to an enemy you decloak. Otherwise no one can see you while your running it. say like 10 meters or something. Probably me being crazy though. Well that wouldn't be awful, if all other penalties to the cloak were removed... It wouldn't be totally great, but still... Perfect invisibility out to 10 meters with no decloak delay and no cloak-blind. That'd be better than great, Gustavo. It'd be broken beyond HMG broken.
Yeah it's great but my cynicism will not allow me to dwell in the realm of certainties.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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