|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
206
   |
Posted - 2015.02.02 16:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is.
Let me extend my heartfelt, deeply sincere sympathies to you, as you complain about not knowing where the enemy is in a thread dedicated to buffing cloaks...
Seriously, I still get killed by de-cloaking shotgun scouts more than often enough to opine that cloaks don't need a buff. The suggestion that they are underpowered, should be ridiculed. On those rare occasions when I do spot a cloaked scout (as opposed to simply being assassinated by one, having had no idea he was present until I was down) they still manage to get away pretty frequently because of their speed.
How about scouts gain the Gal logi scan bonus, and lose the cloak bonus and second equipment slot? Then you'd be scouts instead of ninjas.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
208
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 23:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Let me extend my heartfelt, deeply sincere sympathies to you, as you complain about not knowing where the enemy is in a thread dedicated to buffing cloaks... Seriously, I still get killed by de-cloaking shotgun scouts more than often enough to opine that cloaks don't need a buff. The suggestion that they are underpowered, should be ridiculed. On those rare occasions when I do spot a cloaked scout (as opposed to simply being assassinated by one, having had no idea he was present until I was down) they still manage to get away pretty frequently because of their speed. How about scouts gain the Gal logi scan bonus, and lose the cloak bonus and second equipment slot? Then you'd be scouts instead of ninjas. So your whole argument is based on the fact that you get killed by shotgun scouts, maybe that is a shotgun problem. Also- you do know that losing the cloak bonus makes the cloak unusable by everything.
I'm not making an argument. You are. Badly.
Your argument is a form of special pleading: you want to have an easier time telling where your enemies are, while making it harder for your enemies to know where you are. Do you really not understand why getting what you want would be terrible for the game's balance? Do you not understand why complaining about having "no clue where the enemy is" in your 'buff cloaks" thread isn't persuasive to any of the players who don't run scouts?
I'm glad you made this thread though, so Ratatti can be reminded of why cloaks are in a pretty good place, and don't need to be buffed at all.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
208
|
Posted - 2015.02.02 23:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:They are too easy for experieced players to spot. Nothing more annoying than attempting a cloaked flank, just to be spotted anyway. Not advocating total invisibility whilst in motion, that would be too easy, just less shimmer.
The shimmer is just right. I sometimes catch a scout's shimmer out of the corner of my eye, only to lose them when I turn and scan for them with my cross-hair. Most of the time I catch a cloaked scout's shimmer, they're moving very stupidly, across a wide open space in dark lighting. That's exactly as it should be. You could even make the shimmer more visible and it wouldn't slow the good scouts down at all.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
214
|
Posted - 2015.02.05 15:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:If these changes are insufficient to make Cloak competitive,...
Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts.
Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts.
Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP.
I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
214
|
Posted - 2015.02.06 00:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Gyn, what Adipem is saying that those 2 issues are the only thing that the cloak needs in order to make us happy. One being the glitch where you can't get off cloak if you started running during the switch, and the other the poor design choice of adding a delay to the switch if you are NOT cloaked at all.
We've seen a sizeable group of scouts abandon the cloak because of how it gets stuck, and I think that's what he means by making it competitive. With that said, many of us continue to use the cloak despite the glitchiness of its operation, myself included.
The cloak DOES NOT need any buffs at this point, just bugs fixed. I am convinced it will be fine after that. It needs to not have a delay to swtch when you aren't cloaked to begin with.
Hey Ru,
I've no problem with fixing the equipment glitches. Since I primarily run a scout for dropping initial uplinks, then a logi for the remainder of most matches, I endure them at least as often as scouts do. Fixing all the equipment switch glitches is a good thing. Seeing the specific cloak equipment switch delay fixed is a simply a lower priority than fixing the sprint/equipment switch glitches generally. Its no more catastrophic than failing to switch to a rep tool in time at the cost of a heavy, or failing to switch to a needle before someone gets terminated, or switching back to my main weapon only to find my crosshairs have disappeared rendering my primary weapon nearly useless.
My comments were primarily concerned with the shimmer/visibility of cloak users. I'm not suggesting that cloaks should never be revisited, just that almost anything else is more urgent. We have a 60+ page thread on logis, that have been far more "broken" than the current cloak issues, for longer than there have been cloaks in this game.
Are we really going to see scouts go through an entire cycle of buffs, nerfs, and buffs again, before logis get addressed?
I wouldn't mind if cloak users had a lighting control, settable like control sensitivity from 0 to 100, that would let cloak users select the brightness/darkness of their shimmer for each map. But its honestly just not a big problem considering how often I'll spot shimmer and then immediately lose it. The difference is between peripheral and direct vision quality, which is exactly where that threshold should be.
You know that if the devs do spend time to tweak this, making cloak shimmer a little bit darker, that the complaints will just shift from "too bright on dark maps" towards "too dark on bright maps." Any increase to overall transparency and people with crappy TVs or average vision will have too hard a time ever spotting cloaked scouts.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
214
|
Posted - 2015.02.06 00:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
A. Decloak Delay Bug
First and foremost, the decloak delay bug is a bug and bugs should be fixed. Decloak Delay may not be loved by all, but it is necessary and proper. Delay without Decloak is by definition not "decloak delay"; it is neither necessary nor proper (nor prescribed, nor intended). This bug interferes with fluid gameplay; like all bugs, it tends to get in the way at the worst possible times. Fixing the bug would not amount to buffing cloak; it would amount to fixing a bug.
B. Is Cloak Currently Competitive?
1. Is it the primary function of cloak to offer its user concealment when crossing open terrain?
2. Does cloak perform this primary function reasonably well when used in dark moods/maps/sockets?
3. Do competitive fights ever take place in dark moods/maps/sockets?
We cannot claim that cloak is competitive if it fails to perform its primary function in competitive settings.
C. My Two Cents
The decloak delay bug needs to be fixed. Further, I would absolutely support improvements to shimmer. Cloak is useful some of the time, but "useful some of the time" does not mean competitive. Many good Scouts aren't using cloak at the moment. Most new Scouts can't use cloak at the moment. Cloak isn't healthy. But I'd sooner see it remain sick than be over corrected. Small steps are in order.
First, thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Regarding the equipment switch bug, I agree that it should be fixed, but only as a subset of fixing all the equipment glitches. It should in no way be a higher priority than the needle, rep, hive, and uplink bugs. But I agree, by all means fix all the bugs.
Regarding "B," I admit that my experience is necessarily anecdotal and ask you: How many competitive matches really take place on dark maps? I don't find myself in dark maps very often. I'd be fine with cloaks performing better in dark maps and worse in lighter maps, but I don't think that's what regular cloak users really want. Scouts are complaining about a problem that arises in a minority of maps, whereas the rest of the equipment giltches affect logis on every map.
Finally, I agree that small steps are better than big nerf/buff swings. I'm so glad that Ratatti actually listens to the community sometimes. (The most recent example that comes to mind was pulling back on the plans to increase TacAR magazines to 30, and just bringing them up to 24.)
I just think there are many other small steps the game needs more than this one, and even a few big steps (PvE, m/kb recoding, framerate issues, etc.)
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
214
|
Posted - 2015.02.06 00:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:You don't know what you're talking about period. ...
But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested.
Despite "not knowing anything I'm talking about period" I'll answer your questions.
I don't think cloaks should be buffed, because I see people using them to excellent effect. Like all equipment, I also see some people using them badly. The balance between the two doesn't suggest to me that the cloak is particularly under or over powered at the moment. I'd love some stats from CCP to inform us all of whose perceptions are closest to the truth.
Yes, I run a scout frequently, though not primarily.
No, as you've established by simply declaring it, I can't possibly have any idea what I'm talking about.
My reasoning, isn't that any piece of equipment can't bear reexamination and rebalancing, but that the marginal improvements to the game by focusing dev time on cloaks is minimal compared to other areas where their attention is needed more.
I can acknowledge that cloaks can be improved very slightly. But they're so close to being well balanced already, that I lack confidence that CCP is capable of taking a small enough step to buff the shimmer without making cloaks OP again.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
216
|
Posted - 2015.02.06 01:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:
I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm.
... You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting.
The harm to the game of an OP aspect is directly proportional to the inability of everyone else to mitigate that harm. Mitigating that harm is most often, though not always, directly related to mobility.
What are the worst things to have OP, in descending order of harm? Vehicles, scouts, assaults, heavies.
If heavies are OP, like they are a little bit right now, everyone who isn't slower than a heavy, i.e. Everyone, can mitigate their OPness. When snipers (who functionally are somewhat imobile relative to their most common targets) are OP, everyone can use cover from the sniper's direction to mitigate their effect. In other words, when slow things are OP, its not that bad. When fast things are OP, its devastating to game balance.
What mitigates OP scouts? Positioning? No, scouts can outmaneuver everyone. Fitting? No, scouts win the arms race between precision and damping. Overwhelming firepower? No, shotguns and REs are very high alpha weapons. Expense? No. Scouts are among the cheapest fits to run.
The only thing worse for the game than OP scouts, are OP vehicles, because of their vastly superior mobility, but at least when vehicles were wildly OP, the expense of vehicles mitigated the frequency with which pilots dominated matches.
I'm not against scouts and cloaks being balanced. But I lack confidence that CCP can fine tune an improvement to cloaks that won't wind up being OP. Cloaks may be the most delicate, most prone to becoming over or under powered items in the game. As of right now there pretty close to being balanced. (Just like my favorite thing in the game, the mass driver.) I'd sooner CCP leave them both alone than screw either of them up.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
216
|
Posted - 2015.02.06 14:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:...It doesn't matter how fast something is OP is OP and only a proper nerf can fix it.
The scout suit itself cannot outmaneuver anything, ...
Sometimes you can just quote something silly, and give everyone pause to reread it and contemplate just how silly it is. The trouble with quoting your post, was trying to pair it down to only the most silly parts.
It is precisely the scout's speed that makes it relatively easy for scouts to avoid OP heavies, and comparatively hard for heavies to avoid OP scouts. That is obvious enough that it can't seriously be disputed.
I'm having trouble believing that you really can't understand that OPness can happen in degrees, that something can be a little bit OP or very OP. Even children can understand that. So... kudos! I made the mistake of taking a troll seriously. Well done. 6/10.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
|
|
| |
|