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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1680
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Posted - 2015.02.03 18:07:00 -
[61] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
I don't see why Assaults don't get ganked by heavies but scouts do? There have been numerous times where a heavy has been like 7m behind me and I have no clue. It's called a scout suit for a reason. It's suppose to be king of ewar yet it is not and it have bonuses to a piece of equipment that penalizes their scouting role.
Also-no that is completely false, my freking heavy has a better ewar than a scout that is cloaked.
Also- again if scouts had ewar while cloaked... doesn't that mean they are doing their role?? They are hard to detect except they know where everything is. Rattati called this a double threat so he removed the ewar while cloaked but if you think about it, a heavy is a dual threat too.
Heavies has 2-3 times the hp of medium suits and have the highest DPS weapon in the game.This allows them to be proficient at point defense, no other suit is as good as the heavy at its role.
Now for scouts, almost any suit except heavies can be boss mode ewar. Not to mention the the gallante logi is possibly the best scout out there.
Also- in the scout suits circumstance- its role is soley based on the fact that it has a strong radar.You're so called "Eyes are OP" shouldn't really apply to the scout. It's Radar should be OP. the way you design scout- any suit can do it even a heavy. You go to a point and you look around for enemies- that role is no specific to the scout.
*in battle more coming soon*
Between:
- "Scouts [should be] hard to detect, except they know where everything is..." (Bold)
- "...In the scout suit's circumstance - its role is solely based on the fact that is has a strong radar..." (Bold)
- "Your so called 'Eyes are OP' shouldn't really apply to scouts..." (Bold)
I can see that game balance is not what you are looking for. No suit can have the "Boss mode" Ewar that a scout can have unless it is gimped. You cannot compare a competitive scout fitting to a gimped assault fitting and call them equal. Gal Logis using an active scanner is also an active module of sorts, with its own draw backs. Finally, yes! You can use any suit to fill any role you want. Welcome to Dust514. However, some suits fulfill these roles better than others. There is no way to use a heavy suit as an effective scout. There are ways to build a Min Assault into a modest scout. That is one of the design goals of the fitting system - options and choice.
How is a assault with ewar gimmped? A scout with ewar is gimmped. Low hp-can't scan while cloaked so makes all ewar modules pointless-and without cloak survivable. To you, this isn't about balanced, it's about you having your FOTM assault/heavy or what ever you are be the only thing viable.
BTW- assaults have two extra module high/low which with ewar modules put them at scout level. Therefore- Assault=scout but Assault HP>Scout.
. A scout running ewar modules is a the ugly duckling out.
P.S. if you do PC, you know almost every PC there is a gal logi with 4 active scanners that can keep the team scanned all match.
The only ewar module that is worth a damn on a scout is dampening.
Anyway, forget everything- give me one good, and I mean really good reason with an explanation to why a lot of scouts don't run cloak anymore and the ones that do usually are brick tanked? BTW- don't say this is false because I for a fact know it is true.
The Assault can litterally do everything a scout can do while maintaining higher HP. No way in hell is a Assault suit running ewar modules gimmped.
The only thing a assault can't do is fit a cloak but he'll, cloak is so sh*t you might as well remove it from the game.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
794
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Posted - 2015.02.03 18:41:00 -
[62] - Quote
As far a i can tell sir dukey your main gripe is about not being allowed to scan while being invisible.
Everything you are lametning over you can sill do but not at the same time. You cant passive scan and cloak a the same time.
You can however
-passive scan to select a target,
- turn on your cloak to get close, (ewar invisible, barely a shimmer unless the target looks right at you)
- switch to the weapon of choice to dispach your foe.
You have to turn it off and on to ge the full benifit of your suit.
Otherwise the thread is more about wanting to have all of the ewar advantages and zero ewar drawbacks 100% of the time. Which is frankly speaking, BS.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
855
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Posted - 2015.02.03 20:36:00 -
[63] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:
I find this to be inaccurate, largely due to the arguments that "Eyes are OP", and "You should improve your situational awareness if you're getting ganked by scouts" posed by cloak users. As I mentioned earlier, being a scout is not bounded by how strong your radar is. All of the advice given to non-cloak users before the nerf was implemented should be applicable to cloak users, especially because the radar of a scout using a cloak is similar to the radar of every other suit in the game all of the time.
I will address this point, and your example here. The cloak is essentially an active module. Its use, and associated penalties, is a choice. If you are about to enter a high traffic area, then you have to chose to either rely on your inherent suit bonuses or your cloak field to move through the area. Both options have their merits and virtues, as well as their own issues. I agree that the way the delay works should be fixed, because it feels clunky. The range nerf, in its intent, is perfectly fine. I'm certainly not against tweaking numbers on the range nerf, however.
The fact that using a cloak field is an active choice making your example a false equivalence - besides for the fact that it is a poorly constructed analogy anyway. The intent of the cloak field is to be a defensive, positioning tool. The intent of a weapon is to be an offensive tool.
You're right it is a poorly constructed analogy, I forgot to add a movement speed reduction on top of it all. The argument can be made that "firing your weapon is a choice, you shouldn't be able to just shoot someone without warning it's OP," but that's beside the point.
The cloak is meant to be used to avoid detection, this is it's fundamental function. The delay alone is enough to prevent any combat capabilities that a scout may have, beyond that, range to passive scans is currently minuscule to begin with, so I don't know what dystopian society you think the current meta will become if a scout can scan a heavy, and maybe an assault at 30m while cloaked, if that.
The cloak is the only piece of equipment that has any penalties to it, it is the only piece of equipment that penalizes a suit for it's use. Every other form of play style has absolutely no penalties, not trade-offs, penalties. If someone equips a weapon there is a guarantee that he will be able to shoot people, if someone stack hp there is a guarantee that they will not die as quickly. The only guarantee that the cloak provides is "enemies may or may not be able to see you, at the price of all the high slots you dedicated to precision, and lows to range." And no the radar while cloaked is nothing like the radar of
other suits other suits can still scan people with base scans on say an assault.
There is no guarantee of anything with the cloak, there's 50-50 chance you'll be seen, and if you are seen there is a penalty that will not allow you to defend yourself for 5 seconds, which is an exponentially larger value than the current TTK.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
453
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Posted - 2015.02.03 20:43:00 -
[64] - Quote
The only thing cloak needs is fixing the sprinting glitch that cancels the switch of equipment. Also the delay from decloaking should be about decloaking, right now you get the delay when changing from cloak to anything whether you were cloaked or not. This is really awful.
No visibility buff needed, no ewar buff needed. Just make it work as intended and the cloak is fine as is. |
Michael Epic
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
417
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Posted - 2015.02.03 20:45:00 -
[65] - Quote
Are you really complaining you're not invisible enough so you can sneak up on people with no risks or danger to shoot them in the back?
Seriously? The cloak is a wuss tool. |
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
856
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Posted - 2015.02.03 21:50:00 -
[66] - Quote
Michael Epic wrote:Are you really complaining you're not invisible enough so you can sneak up on people with no risks or danger to shoot them in the back?
Seriously? The cloak is a wuss tool.
It's still in the game, it should be balanced right.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Piercing Serenity
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
834
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:08:00 -
[67] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
How is a assault with ewar gimmped? A scout with ewar is gimmped. Low hp-can't scan while cloaked so makes all ewar modules pointless-and without cloak survivable. To you, this isn't about balanced, it's about you having your FOTM assault/heavy or what ever you are be the only thing viable.
BTW- assaults have two extra module high/low which with ewar modules put them at scout level. Therefore- Assault=scout but Assault HP>Scout.
. A scout running ewar modules is a the ugly duckling out.
P.S. if you do PC, you know almost every PC there is a gal logi with 4 active scanners that can keep the team scanned all match.
The only ewar module that is worth a damn on a scout is dampening.
Anyway, forget everything- give me one good, and I mean really good reason with an explanation to why a lot of scouts don't run cloak anymore and the ones that do usually are brick tanked? BTW- don't say this is false because I for a fact know it is true.
The Assault can litterally do everything a scout can do while maintaining higher HP. No way in hell is a Assault suit running ewar modules gimmped.
The only thing a assault can't do is fit a cloak but he'll, cloak is so sh*t you might as well remove it from the game.
The Cloak and the scout circumstance is equivalent to if a Gallante Logistics suit is using a Scanner- everybody on the map should know where he is. It is only fair.
If when you are a scout you sacrifice all your scan range for be harder to detect, any suit using an active scanner should sacrifice it's detection to detect others. If any suit is using a repair tool- it should sacrifice it's own Armor repair per sec to repair another suit. If a dropsuit is using a a nanohive, the suit should sacrifice secondary ammo for primary ammo.
Why is it only equipment with drawbacks is the cloak?
An Assault with EWAR is not gimped. Nowhere in my post did I say that. I claimed that an Assault that tried to match the abilities of a scout would need to gimp its suit to do so. Case and Point: I run a Complex dampener on all of my suits, granting me some measure of scan protection. This puts my Scan Profile at 35, I believe (Though this is off of the top of my head). However, if I tried to get down to 25 dB and 10.40m/s, I would need to get a proto Min Assault and fill all of my low slots with Kincat and Damps to achieve something that scouts can do with far less module cost. I was arguing that there are far more competitive Min Assault builds than that, and that the aforementioned fitting was "gimped" by comparison.
Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time.
As for my motives, I don't have any. I just disagree with your faulty argument for removing the nerf, is all. I'm fine with fixing the numbers, or the mechanics of engaging and disengaging the cloak, but the spirit of the nerf is fine to me.
Finally, you sacrifice your scan range optionally to be both visually and electronically harder to detect. This is inline with dampening being more rewarding than scanning, by and large. This bonus is just not free of cost.
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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6329
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:
Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time.
Passive scans are far less competitive than they used to be; EWAR Scouts no longer play a part in PC. The very best an AM Scout can offer is 44 meters at 23 dB; the very best a CA Scout can offer is 58 meters at 26 dB.
PS: Assault Scan Profile with one Complex Dampener is 30 dB. Two is 24 dB.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Piercing Serenity
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
835
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:21:00 -
[69] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
You're right it is a poorly constructed analogy, I forgot to add a movement speed reduction on top of it all. The argument can be made that "firing your weapon is a choice, you shouldn't be able to just shoot someone without warning it's OP," but that's beside the point.
The cloak is meant to be used to avoid detection, this is it's fundamental function. The delay alone is enough to prevent any combat capabilities that a scout may have, beyond that, range to passive scans is currently minuscule to begin with, so I don't know what dystopian society you think the current meta will become if a scout can scan a heavy, and maybe an assault at 30m while cloaked, if that.
The cloak is the only piece of equipment that has any penalties to it, it is the only piece of equipment that penalizes a suit for it's use. Every other form of play style has absolutely no penalties, not trade-offs, penalties. If someone equips a weapon there is a guarantee that he will be able to shoot people, if someone were to stack hp there is a guarantee that they will not die as quickly. The only guarantee that the cloak provides is "enemies may or may not be able to see you, at the price of all the high slots you dedicated to precision, and lows to range." And no the radar while cloaked is nothing like the radar of
other suits other suits can still scan people with base scans on say an assault.
There is no guarantee of anything with the cloak, there's 50-50 chance you'll be seen, and if you are seen there is a penalty that will not allow you to defend yourself for 5 seconds, which is an exponentially larger value than the current TTK.
Your argument about the cloak being the only piece of equipment to have a penalty is not a good comparison. The cloak is the only piece of equipment of its kind. It is the only active module that effects a statistic - in this case, scan profile - of a dropsuit, at will (essentially). Of course no other piece of equipment has the downsides of the cloak. No other piece of equipment works like a cloak. Secondly, in general, if you want to compare the cloak to anything it has to be equipment - not weapons or modules. Weapons and modules do not function in the same way that equipment does at all: the bonuses they confer are all passive. So you should pick a more appropriate object to compare cloaks too.
Finally, there is absolutely a binary nature of being seen: You are either seen or not. Using a cloak tips the scale further in the direction of "not being seen". So its certainly not 50/50. It is situational. To complain about a lack of a guarantee would be to ignore the active scanner - there is no guarantee that you will scan anything. The advantages you get from activating your cloak field, the change to avoid damage by avoiding detection, secure advantageous positioning, etc - are much larger than the advantages that you get from using a scanner. There is just a cost with such large advantages.
To be clear, I'm not against tweaking the numbers for the range penalty. Nor am I against fixing clunky mechanics. But the basis of Sir Dukey's argument is weak, and all of the "advice" offered to non-scouts before the nerf can be applied to scouts now
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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Piercing Serenity
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
835
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Piercing Serenity wrote:
Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time.
Passive scans are far less competitive than they used to be; EWAR Scouts no longer play a part in PC. The very best an AM Scout can offer is 44 meters at 23 dB; the very best a CA Scout can offer is 58 meters at 26 dB. The only realistic form of competitive recon available is that provided by proto Active Scanners; the GA Logi is presently the best recon unit in the game. PS: Assault Scan Profile with one Complex Dampener is 30 dB. Two is 24 dB.
Thanks for the info - sorry for my misinformation
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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6331
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:22:00 -
[71] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:
Thanks for the info - sorry for my misinformation
NP. You're doing good work here. Just wanted to clear that tidbit up. o7
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1682
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:24:00 -
[72] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
How is a assault with ewar gimmped? A scout with ewar is gimmped. Low hp-can't scan while cloaked so makes all ewar modules pointless-and without cloak survivable. To you, this isn't about balanced, it's about you having your FOTM assault/heavy or what ever you are be the only thing viable.
BTW- assaults have two extra module high/low which with ewar modules put them at scout level. Therefore- Assault=scout but Assault HP>Scout.
. A scout running ewar modules is a the ugly duckling out.
P.S. if you do PC, you know almost every PC there is a gal logi with 4 active scanners that can keep the team scanned all match.
The only ewar module that is worth a damn on a scout is dampening.
Anyway, forget everything- give me one good, and I mean really good reason with an explanation to why a lot of scouts don't run cloak anymore and the ones that do usually are brick tanked? BTW- don't say this is false because I for a fact know it is true.
The Assault can litterally do everything a scout can do while maintaining higher HP. No way in hell is a Assault suit running ewar modules gimmped.
The only thing a assault can't do is fit a cloak but he'll, cloak is so sh*t you might as well remove it from the game.
The Cloak and the scout circumstance is equivalent to if a Gallante Logistics suit is using a Scanner- everybody on the map should know where he is. It is only fair.
If when you are a scout you sacrifice all your scan range for be harder to detect, any suit using an active scanner should sacrifice it's detection to detect others. If any suit is using a repair tool- it should sacrifice it's own Armor repair per sec to repair another suit. If a dropsuit is using a a nanohive, the suit should sacrifice secondary ammo for primary ammo.
Why is it only equipment with drawbacks is the cloak?
An Assault with EWAR is not gimped. Nowhere in my post did I say that. I claimed that an Assault that tried to match the abilities of a scout would need to gimp its suit to do so. Case and Point: I run a Complex dampener on all of my suits, granting me some measure of scan protection. This puts my Scan Profile at 35, I believe (Though this is off of the top of my head). However, if I tried to get down to 25 dB and 10.40m/s, I would need to get a proto Min Assault and fill all of my low slots with Kincat and Damps to achieve something that scouts can do with far less module cost. I was arguing that there are far more competitive Min Assault builds than that, and that the aforementioned fitting was "gimped" by comparison. Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time. As for my motives, I don't have any. I just disagree with your faulty argument for removing the nerf, is all. I'm fine with fixing the numbers, or the mechanics of engaging and disengaging the cloak, but the spirit of the nerf is fine to me. Finally, you sacrifice your scan range optionally to be both visually and electronically harder to detect. This is inline with dampening being more rewarding than scanning, by and large. This bonus is just not free of cost.
False because is PC there is a Gal logi- all scouts are slayers-hackers-uplink destroyers. No scout in PC does that anymore every since the nerfs. Also Passive scans only available to one squad unlike Active scans. Also- It's a scan Gal logi with all scanners that he cycles. There is a video on youtube somewhere of a guy doing this.
And again, why is the cloak the only piece of equipment with a down side? Let's balance it according to other equipment or nerf other equipment to have trade offs. Also, if you think people run proto cloaks- they don't due to massive fitting costs therefore the most we run are advanced which offers 5% dampeneing. WOWW, I'm 1.75 DB LOWER THAN NORMAL! 1.75 db isn't anything.
Also- since your argument is completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to keep it the way it is.
Edit: yes it's Dust 514 where you can do anything but there is no reason for suits not intended for Ewar to be better at ewar than the suit intended for it. Remember how Assault used to cry that Scouts are taking over their role because scouts can tank so much. Well, assaults are taking over scout role because Assault suit can literally do what scouts do and even be better than scouts in some circumstances. For example, the Min Assault can actually have more dampening (24 DB) and run 10.4 m/s while a Min scout can only get (26 DB) and run 10.4 m/s .
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Piercing Serenity
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
836
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:32:00 -
[73] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
False because is PC there is a Gal logi- all scouts are slayers-hackers-uplink destroyers. No scout in PC does that anymore every since the nerfs. Also Passive scans only available to one squad unlike Active scans. Also- It's a scan Gal logi with all scanners that he cycles. There is a video on youtube somewhere of a guy doing this.
And again, why is the cloak the only piece of equipment with a down side? Let's balance it according to other equipment or nerf other equipment to have trade offs. Also, if you think people run proto cloaks- they don't due to massive fitting costs therefore the most we run are advanced which offers 5% dampeneing. WOWW, I'm 1.75 DB LOWER THAN NORMAL! 1.75 db isn't anything.
Also- since your argument is completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to keep it the way it is.
My argument is not any more opinion based than anything else said in this article. The debate is:
- "Is the range nerf applied to scouts appropriate?"
Your answer to that question is: "No, it is not appropriate. Scouts lose their ability to scout with this nerf."
My answer to that question is: "Yes, it is appropriate. Scouts are not defined by their radar strength."
Your supporting evidence is that scouts should be able to cloak and have radar superiority, and that scouts should not have to rely on visual situational awareness as much as other suits.
My supporting evidence is that scouts have other bonuses that allow them to scout in other ways - visually, for example - which are unaffected by the range nerf. Furthermore, scouts should take their own advice, and no suit should have the ability to "rely less on visual situational awareness" based on their class.
This is entirely an opinion based discussion. I just think your argument is flawed, and your supporting points are not in the name of balance. And, to bring things full circle: Since your argument is also completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to change the way things are.
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1682
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:59:00 -
[74] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
False because is PC there is a Gal logi- all scouts are slayers-hackers-uplink destroyers. No scout in PC does that anymore every since the nerfs. Also Passive scans only available to one squad unlike Active scans. Also- It's a scan Gal logi with all scanners that he cycles. There is a video on youtube somewhere of a guy doing this.
And again, why is the cloak the only piece of equipment with a down side? Let's balance it according to other equipment or nerf other equipment to have trade offs. Also, if you think people run proto cloaks- they don't due to massive fitting costs therefore the most we run are advanced which offers 5% dampeneing. WOWW, I'm 1.75 DB LOWER THAN NORMAL! 1.75 db isn't anything.
Also- since your argument is completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to keep it the way it is.
My argument is not any more opinion based than anything else said in this article. The debate is:
- "Is the range nerf applied to scouts appropriate?"
Your answer to that question is: "No, it is not appropriate. Scouts lose their ability to scout with this nerf." My answer to that question is: "Yes, it is appropriate. Scouts are not defined by their radar strength." Your supporting evidence is that scouts should be able to cloak and have radar superiority, and that scouts should not have to rely on visual situational awareness as much as other suits. My supporting evidence is that scouts have other bonuses that allow them to scout in other ways - visually, for example - which are unaffected by the range nerf. Furthermore, scouts should take their own advice, and no suit should have the ability to "rely less on visual situational awareness" based on their class. This is entirely an opinion based discussion. I just think your argument is flawed, and your supporting points are not in the name of balance. And, to bring things full circle: Since your argument is also completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to change the way things are.
There really was no good reason to take away the passives while cloaked in the first place other than Rattati thought so.
Also, Assaults shouldn't be good as scouts at EWAR and radar. The whole point of the scout is to have strong radar. Everyone has eyes, we skilled into scout suits to have strong radar yet we don't. Assaults are taking over Scout role. There is nothing special about scout anymore. The least CCP can do is give back the passives while cloaked to give us back some incentive to use ewar modules and be paperthin.
Yes it's Dust 514 where you can do anything but there is no reason for suits not intended for Ewar to be better at ewar than the suit intended for it. Remember how Assault used to cry that Scouts are taking over their role because scouts can tank so much. Well, assaults are taking over scout role because Assault suit can literally do what scouts do and even be better than scouts in some circumstances. For example, the Min Assault can actually have more dampening (24 DB) and run 10.4 m/s while a Min scout can only get (26 DB) and run 10.4 m/s .
Also-,your argument is solely revenge based. "Eyes are OP." When Scouts said this, CCP still buffed Assaults like hell, they got more slots and more HP. And again, everyone has eyes, what makes the scout special?
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Posted - 2015.02.04 02:10:00 -
[75] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
There really was no good reason to take away the passives while cloaked in the first place other than Rattati thought so.
Actually, a pre-1.8 Scout named Haerr came up with the "submarine warfare" idea. At the time, Scouts were overperforming, Assault Lite was still a very real problem, and shotgun efficiency (kills / spawn) had dedicated shotgunners worried about over-correction. Rattati wasn't the only one who thought this a good idea. It's all in the Barbershop.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8331
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Posted - 2015.02.04 02:25:00 -
[76] - Quote
Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering...
What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts".
A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot.
Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing...
The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization.
EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of?
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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6333
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Posted - 2015.02.04 02:34:00 -
[77] - Quote
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8332
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Posted - 2015.02.04 02:56:00 -
[78] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:I'm sorry that a few the guys were rude to you, Aeon. They're a tough crowd at times, but they know their knives and they mean well. In hindsight, I should've seen it coming; should've advised you in advance to bring thick skin. Either way, wish you had stuck with it. It was a fun experiment.
-Shrug-
Maybe you guys should try being on the receiving end as an Assault sometime.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6335
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:04:00 -
[79] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:I'm sorry that a few the guys were rude to you, Aeon. They're a tough crowd at times, but they know their knives and they mean well. In hindsight, I should've seen it coming; should've advised you in advance to bring thick skin. Either way, wish you had stuck with it. It was a fun experiment. -Shrug- Maybe you guys should try being on the receiving end as an Assault sometime.
Pretty much everyone there but me has one. If you count the MN Assault as an Assault :-)
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8335
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:06:00 -
[80] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:I'm sorry that a few the guys were rude to you, Aeon. They're a tough crowd at times, but they know their knives and they mean well. In hindsight, I should've seen it coming; should've advised you in advance to bring thick skin. Either way, wish you had stuck with it. It was a fun experiment. -Shrug- Maybe you guys should try being on the receiving end as an Assault sometime. Everyone but me has one. If you count the MN Assault as an Assault :-)
That's cool.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
856
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 03:08:00 -
[81] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:
Your argument about the cloak being the only piece of equipment to have a penalty is not a good comparison. The cloak is the only piece of equipment of its kind. It is the only active module that effects a statistic - in this case, scan profile - of a dropsuit, at will (essentially). Of course no other piece of equipment has the downsides of the cloak. No other piece of equipment works like a cloak. Secondly, in general, if you want to compare the cloak to anything it has to be equipment - not weapons or modules. Weapons and modules do not function in the same way that equipment does at all: the bonuses they confer are all passive. So you should pick a more appropriate object to compare cloaks too.
Finally, there is absolutely a binary nature of being seen: You are either seen or not. Using a cloak tips the scale further in the direction of "not being seen". So its certainly not 50/50. It is situational. To complain about a lack of a guarantee would be to ignore the active scanner - there is no guarantee that you will scan anything. The advantages you get from activating your cloak field, the change to avoid damage by avoiding detection, secure advantageous positioning, etc - are much larger than the advantages that you get from using a scanner. There is just a cost with such large advantages.
The active scanner is also a piece an active module, which effects the scan range and precision of a suit. The role of an assault is to kill therefore it is given a bonus to weapons fittings, the role of a scout is to avoid detection enough to do stuff. They're the same thing because they both give role bonuses.
It is most certainly 50-50 when enemies are present there is a 50-50 chance, the only time the cloak is useful is when there are enemies present. No Enemies=No reason to hide from enemies. With the Active Scanner there is a 100% chance you will no whether or not there are enemies present.
Yes, that's a solid argument "being able to see 90% of the enemy team is much less useful than not being scanned/seen by enemies hurka durka." You might have well had said "shotguns are best at long ranges." There is no cost to the active scanner. I don't know what you consider an advantage, but if you think cloaks are an advantage what Divine Almighty Power do you consider the Active Scanner?
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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TritusX
PH4NT0M5
212
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:14:00 -
[82] - Quote
When I first joined this game, I was told scouts were king of EWAR. So I went scout. At first I tried the Gallente scout on an alt, seemed fun, and I used small little frames with regs, codebreakers, and damps. Ran around with the militia shotgun for so long, no cloaks, and was a great time. Learned to sneak up on people, all of that good stuff. Damps kept me hidden, range and precison enhancers allowed me to see my enemy better. Then I discovered the cloak! What a wonderful tool! I can now effectively not die everytime I kill someone! Then I became a minja. And it got worse. Cloak delays when leaving it, I just stopped using it all together. These days, the only EWAR mod i run is a enh. damp to stay away from noob scanners.
Forced Death
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
858
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 03:20:00 -
[83] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering... What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts". A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot. Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing... The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization. EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of?
The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for .
The shimmer is a draw back but a necessary one.
Yes, exactly a scout using nothing but E-war will never be as useful as an assault HP tanking, at least not in the current state of E-war. The fact that seeing 30m on a suit that has to sacrifice almost all their Hp capabilities, at least in a perfect world, is reason enough to remove the 85% reduction to range. Classifying scouts all into 1 playstyle is really bad reasoning, scouts can and should be able to perform other roles beyond just not being seen, and maybe seeing people. An assault that has no E-war equipped can still scan other suits from a decent distance, so that is a false comparison.
That sentiment would not be shared, the one about being fine with the cloak because it's "unique," if there penalty to what your role bonus encouraged, honestly.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6339
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:24:00 -
[84] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for .
Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1686
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:26:00 -
[85] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering... What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts". A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot. Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing... The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization. EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of?
There is no point to precision if your range is like 7m. It's like a car, there is no point in big fuel tank if it is electric. You can't utilize precision with low range and you cant utilize big gas tank in a mostly electric car.
Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
859
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:27:00 -
[86] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:
The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for .
Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for?
Off-color circle-jerkery
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6339
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 03:42:00 -
[87] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:
The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for .
Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for? Off-color circle-jerkery
A curiously nondescript thing to "stand against".
Off-topic, yes. On occasion. But off-color? Don't recall that.
As for a circle-jerk, I'm afraid we argue over everything.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
859
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 04:05:00 -
[88] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:
The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for .
Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for? Off-color circle-jerkery A curiously nondescript thing to "stand against". Off-topic, yes. On occasion. But off-color? Don't recall that. As for a circle-jerk, I'm afraid we argue over everything.
Don't worry about it.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Piercing Serenity
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
839
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Posted - 2015.02.04 04:47:00 -
[89] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
The active scanner is also an active module/piece of equipment, which effects the scan range and precision of a suit. The role of an assault is to kill therefore it is given a bonus to weapons fittings, the role of a scout is to avoid detection enough to do stuff. They're the same thing because they both give role bonuses.
It is most certainly 50-50 when enemies are present there is a 50-50 chance, the only time the cloak is useful is when there are enemies present. No Enemies=No reason to hide from enemies. With the Active Scanner there is a 100% chance you will no whether or not there are enemies present.
Yes, that's a solid argument "being able to see 90% of the enemy team is much less useful than not being scanned/seen by enemies hurka durka." You might have well had said "shotguns are best at long ranges." There is no cost to the active scanner. I don't know what you consider an advantage, but if you think cloaks are an advantage what Divine Almighty Power do you consider the Active Scanner?
- The active scanner does not effect the scan range and precision of a suit, because it is one-directional while the suit's native scans are omni-directional. However, I understand that my problem with your statement can be considered one of semantics, so I will concede that an active scanner can be classified in the same way as a cloak field.
- The role of a scout is to visual and electronically confirm targets, and assassinate said targets by closing the distance quickly. Scouts get a bonus to complete all of these jobs. "Avoiding Detection" can be done in more ways than one.
- By definition of "being harder to see", being detected while using a cloak field is not a 50/50 probability event. If you are "harder to see", then then you are more likely to go unseen than to be detected. So, the ratio could be something like 60/40 or 90/10. Just anything greater than 50/50.
- The cloak can be used usefully when there are no enemies present - it can be used preemptively, for example. If you notice a suit within your 40m scan range, you can cloak before they see you and plan your route around - or behind - their position. It is a defensive and positional tool. Only one of those descriptors (defensive) requires enemy presence
- You are correct in saying that "When using the active scanner, you are 100% sure whether or not enemies are present". However, the information that "there are no enemies currently in the 90 degree (or less) field of view that you have" is not very powerful information. For all you know, the enemy could be there just a second after you scanned and you could be walking into a trap. Further more, the active scanner has a chance to fail even when someone is inside its radius. So, you will know that someone is in your arc, but not know anything more than that. The active scanner does not have that failure. If you are standing still, you will never become more opaque because someone is looking in your direction.
- Active scanners are mostly likely "more powerful" - by which I mean more commonly used - than active cloaks because they are easy to use relative to the utility they provide. You can scan and help your team immediately. The cost to benefit ratio may be skewed, but that discussion would belong in a "Nerf active scanners" thread. Cloaks have a higher skill curve, a higher potential reward, and a higher trade off. Personally, I would rather be able to sneak up and kill a logi repping a heavy than know that there is a logi repping a heavy 20m in front of me.
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1688
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 04:54:00 -
[90] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:
The active scanner is also an active module/piece of equipment, which effects the scan range and precision of a suit. The role of an assault is to kill therefore it is given a bonus to weapons fittings, the role of a scout is to avoid detection enough to do stuff. They're the same thing because they both give role bonuses.
It is most certainly 50-50 when enemies are present there is a 50-50 chance, the only time the cloak is useful is when there are enemies present. No Enemies=No reason to hide from enemies. With the Active Scanner there is a 100% chance you will no whether or not there are enemies present.
Yes, that's a solid argument "being able to see 90% of the enemy team is much less useful than not being scanned/seen by enemies hurka durka." You might have well had said "shotguns are best at long ranges." There is no cost to the active scanner. I don't know what you consider an advantage, but if you think cloaks are an advantage what Divine Almighty Power do you consider the Active Scanner?
- The active scanner does not effect the scan range and precision of a suit, because it is one-directional while the suit's native scans are omni-directional. However, I understand that my problem with your statement can be considered one of semantics, so I will concede that an active scanner can be classified in the same way as a cloak field.
- The role of a scout is to visual and electronically confirm targets, and assassinate said targets by closing the distance quickly. Scouts get a bonus to complete all of these jobs. "Avoiding Detection" can be done in more ways than one.
- By definition of "being harder to see", being detected while using a cloak field is not a 50/50 probability event. If you are "harder to see", then then you are more likely to go unseen than to be detected. So, the ratio could be something like 60/40 or 90/10. Just anything greater than 50/50.
- The cloak can be used usefully when there are no enemies present - it can be used preemptively, for example. If you notice a suit within your 40m scan range, you can cloak before they see you and plan your route around - or behind - their position. It is a defensive and positional tool. Only one of those descriptors (defensive) requires enemy presence
- You are correct in saying that "When using the active scanner, you are 100% sure whether or not enemies are present". However, the information that "there are no enemies currently in the 90 degree (or less) field of view that you have" is not very powerful information. For all you know, the enemy could be there just a second after you scanned and you could be walking into a trap. Further more, the active scanner has a chance to fail even when someone is inside its radius. So, you will know that someone is in your arc, but not know anything more than that. The active scanner does not have that failure. If you are standing still, you will never become more opaque because someone is looking in your direction.
- Active scanners are mostly likely "more powerful" - by which I mean more commonly used - than active cloaks because they are easy to use relative to the utility they provide. You can scan and help your team immediately. The cost to benefit ratio may be skewed, but that discussion would belong in a "Nerf active scanners" thread. Cloaks have a higher skill curve, a higher potential reward, and a higher trade off. Personally, I would rather be able to sneak up and kill a logi repping a heavy than know that there is a logi repping a heavy 20m in front of me.
So now scout is a slayer role?
Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
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