If the basis of the argument for restore the radar range of scouts while in the cloak is "The current system does not allow me to be a scout", then a faulty line of reasoning is what I have against the cloaking range nerf removed. As I mentioned earlier, the inherent bonuses that the scout suit receives allows you to scout in different ways.

To address your comment about the Minmatar Assault, it is rather cherry picked. Yes, you have shown that you can put two Complex Kincats and two Complex profile dampeners on an Minmatar assault to try and copy the bonuses of a scout suit. This is a product of the fitting system in Dust. However, that proto Min Ass would still be out preformed by a scout with the same modules.

You can brick tank a scout suit to emulate an assault suit. It will function like an assault suit (Or even better, in the case of some scouts). But that is a straw man argument. We're not debating the ability for other suits to copy the functions of a role different from their own. We're debating how damaging the cloak - as it stands - is to the ability of a scout to preform its duties. And my position of "Not very damaging, all things considered" still stands

I find this to be inaccurate, largely due to the arguments that "Eyes are OP", and "You should improve your situational awareness if you're getting ganked by scouts" posed by cloak users. As I mentioned earlier, being a scout is not bounded by how strong your radar is. All of the advice given to non-cloak users before the nerf was implemented should be applicable to cloak users, especially because the radar of a scout using a cloak is similar to the radar of every other suit in the game all of the time.

I will address this point, and your example here. The cloak is essentially an active module. Its use, and associated penalties, is a choice. If you are about to enter a high traffic area, then you have to chose to either rely on your inherent suit bonuses or your cloak field to move through the area. Both options have their merits and virtues, as well as their own issues. I agree that the way the delay works should be fixed, because it feels clunky. The range nerf, in its intent, is perfectly fine. I'm certainly not against tweaking numbers on the range nerf, however.

The fact that using a cloak field is an active choice making your example a false equivalence - besides for the fact that it is a poorly constructed analogy anyway. The intent of the cloak field is to be a defensive, positioning tool. The intent of a weapon is to be an offensive tool.

Are you really complaining you're not invisible enough so you can sneak up on people with no risks or danger to shoot them in the back?

Seriously? The cloak is a wuss tool.

Your argument about the cloak being the only piece of equipment to have a penalty is not a good comparison. The cloak is the only piece of equipment of its kind. It is the only active module that effects a statistic - in this case, scan profile - of a dropsuit, at will (essentially). Of course no other piece of equipment has the downsides of the cloak. No other piece of equipment works like a cloak. Secondly, in general, if you want to compare the cloak to anything it has to be equipment - not weapons or modules. Weapons and modules do not function in the same way that equipment does at all: the bonuses they confer are all passive. So you should pick a more appropriate object to compare cloaks too.

Finally, there is absolutely a binary nature of being seen: You are either seen or not. Using a cloak tips the scale further in the direction of "not being seen". So its certainly not 50/50. It is situational. To complain about a lack of a guarantee would be to ignore the active scanner - there is no guarantee that you will scan anything. The advantages you get from activating your cloak field, the change to avoid damage by avoiding detection, secure advantageous positioning, etc - are much larger than the advantages that you get from using a scanner. There is just a cost with such large advantages.

Maybe when things like sprinting, firing, jumping, etc actually have an affect on profile... Otherwise, this is sort of over-powering...

What drawbacks would there be to using a cloak, exactly? The shimmer effect doesn't need to be touched because of the toupee fallacy when it comes to all the times it's been said that "it's too easy to see cloaked scouts".

A slight reduction in the drawbacks to scan range isn't unreasonable but if a Scout is already getting the best of both worlds (profile -and- precision) then why should he have the range as well..? Because he doesn't have the same EHP as my Assault? One could argue that because my Assault doesn't have the same EWAR abilities that it should get a sizable EHP and DPS buff to compensate; it's the same shoe on a different foot.

Your only goal is get behind and close enough for an insta-gib. My goal is being able to find you and keep target long enough to kill you while being completely visible to everything else on your team. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should have to use your eyes to survey an area instead of relying entirely on your scanners when I have to do the same thing...

The cloaking device in and of itself is primarily a Scout tool and thereby the problems associated with it are limited to Scouts. It is nigh impossible to fit a cloaking device with any degree of ease on anything else, even at the standard level, due to high resource costs. Take pride in the fact that this function and it's drawbacks are unique to your specialization.

EDIT: Also, as I was told when I went into the Barbershop to politely discuss things... How's about you guys go back to the Barbershop or whatever skype channel you crawled out of?

Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for?

A curiously nondescript thing to "stand against".

Off-topic, yes. On occasion. But off-color? Don't recall that.
As for a circle-jerk, I'm afraid we argue over everything.

You mean like movement speed reductions on armor plates and increased depleted delay/reduced shield capacity on shield modules..?

Tell me, what does our role bonus encourage, exactly..? Reduced fitting costs on weaponry? Dispersion reductions? Reload speed increases? Don't make me laugh dude, at least Scouts have a legitimate and verifiable role in this game. Assaults and Commandos are so mixed and meshed together no-one even know what they're supposed to do besides be cannon fodder for Scouts and Heavies.

So I suppose that is you giving permission for Assault suits to have a longer short-range scan..? You act like having a small scan radius is somehow unique to Cloaky Scouts or something. #DealWithIt

\

Point 3:

I do not know what at what range a sufficiently precision-tanked scout can see the majority of suits, so I will take your word that it is some range less than 40m. However, at ranges less than 40m, you don't need to use your radar to predict the general motion of the suit. You can stay out of LoS and be hidden to the suit until he is close enough for you to feel confident in predicting his motion, then activate your cloak. However, I think that you are overstating the difficulty in predicting the motion of someone at 40m. Most people do not run random patterns to throw off anyone who might be looking. They generally run the shortest distance between themselves and whatever objective - supply depot, nanohive, etc - they are pursuing.


Point 5: The cloak works against EWAR detection due to the visual "protection" it offers. I'm not deviating from any point because I can't think of anything. It's just because I disagree with you. The scout receives other bonuses native to the suit that allow it to scout in other ways. I'm not sure why being a scout must either be "Having complete EWAR superiority all of the time" or "We are no longer scouts". As I mentioned before, I'm not against tweaking the values of the range nerf. That's just a problem of degree.

Finally, the extra jabs and comments are pretty unnecessary. We're having a simple discussion. I'm not angry at you in the least. I'm arguing about the utility of equipment in a video game. This is not to say that I don't care about DUST - I truly do. It's only to make the point that having all of this tension over the discussion is pretty unwarranted, given the context.

There are two scouts that have anything to do with precision as far as role: The Caldari, with it's increase scan range and the Gallente, with it's (minor) bonus to precision.

Of which, -both- of them receive a profile reduction built into the suit through skills and that does not include the use of modules. While I could -maybe- see the argument that it's "going against what the role intends", that logic only applies to these two racial suits considering the Amarr and Minmatar are geared for different things. Even still, you're asking for semi-invisibility, tactical invisibility, and the ability to see things on tacnet without having to change your fittings at all.

If they removed the penalty completely, you would have the best of everything in EWAR and not have to fit anything besides a cloaking device. What drawbacks are there? What stops a scout from brick tanking and just being generally god mode over everything else in that case?

EDIT: That being said, if Scouts aren't slayers then what good is having precision on the cloaking device for any reason other than to gimmick-predator-kill whoever you're trying to ride up on..?

No-one has an issue with someone having sufficient armor reps and armor tank because it has hard-counters: Mass Drivers, Core Locus Grenades, Small Missile Turrets, HMGs.

No-one has an issue with someone having sufficient shield tank, regeneration, and delay reduction because it has hard-counters: Scrambler Rifles, Flux Grenades, getting a single round on them with any weapon to prevent shields from recharging.

You know what the counter is for EWAR? EWAR. You counter profile dampeners by running an Active Scanner, which in the case of the Focused scanner (the one geared toward Scouts) has an insanely high cool-down, insanely low angle, and is so incredibly niche that the only suit it's really viable on is a Gallente Logistics... Which is even more amusing because there was this initiative (that passed, btw) for -ALL- Scouts to be able to get beneath a Focused Scanner even on a Gallente Logi with max skills.

So please explain to me what the counter is for that?

As far as range and precision, are we expecting that every other player is now required to hopelessly profile tank in place of their main tank -just- to deal with Scouts that have both Tactical Invisibility and Visual Invisibility..? What is the counter toward this if I can never profile dampen low enough to get beneath a Scout's precision, let alone a Gallente Logi's..?

Do you see the flaw here or are you still convinced that Cloaky Scouts have some unfair disadvantage?

Not really when cloak exasperates hit detection issues.

More like, can't buff cloak to work proper till hit detection is fixed. Then cloak can be reverted to original incarnation (weapon swap while cloak included!) and not be OP.

Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive? Only after the nerf am I coming across (i.e. being killed by) what seems like a reasonable proportion of players running cloaked scouts.

Any increase in the proportion of players abandoning assaults, heavies, commandos, and logis, would suggest to me that the cloak had become OP again. Few things becoming OP do as much damage to player retention as letting the cloak get OP. OP tanks, ADSs, heavies, all of these things can be countered or avoided more easily than OP cloaked shotgun and RE throwing scouts.

Buffing cloaks is absolutely the last thing any dev resources should be spent on. There is no aspect of the game that CCP could spend dev resources on that wouldn't be a better choice than buffing cloaks. The only worse choices would be buffing other things that are already balanced or OP.

I'd sooner see HMGs buffed than cloaks. It would do less harm.

Personally i was hoping more for what it is like in eve. When you get close to an enemy you decloak. Otherwise no one can see you while your running it. say like 10 meters or something. Probably me being crazy though.

Perfect invisibility out to 10 meters with no decloak delay and no cloak-blind.

That'd be better than great, Gustavo. It'd be broken beyond HMG broken.

At no point does my logic have anything to do with what you said. I said, specifically, that cloak exasperates hit detection issues. Things are already bad enough that a scout running ferroscale can go toe to toe with an assault who has superior HP and have EVERY bit a good chance at winning. That is OP. Your suit weakness (low ehp) not actually existing PLUS tons of other bonuses. (Speed, better ewar -- even if it's not very good right now it's still better than everyone else's, equipment slots, hit box size, etc...) That weakness doesn't exist because at high speeds hit detection breaks too much. And Cloak takes synergizes with this. If you pretend that scouts couldn't run around slaying toe to toe with people then you are not worth talking to. Especially seeing as they can still do so.

"reasoning"

My statement is this: Cloak is broken. Cloak needs to be 'buffed.' In this case buff means fixed. However, it cannot be due to scout's (and certain other suits *coughminassaultcough*) ridiculous hit detection cancelling abilities. Cloak has a high synergy with these abilities giving scouts an effective HP higher than an assault's. Plus the mobility to go be super high EHP at many places on the map. Adding cloak to damage cancelling abilities = something that is unreasonably hard to kill.

Sometimes you can just quote something silly, and give everyone pause to reread it and contemplate just how silly it is. The trouble with quoting your post, was trying to pair it down to only the most silly parts.

It is precisely the scout's speed that makes it relatively easy for scouts to avoid OP heavies, and comparatively hard for heavies to avoid OP scouts. That is obvious enough that it can't seriously be disputed.

I'm having trouble believing that you really can't understand that OPness can happen in degrees, that something can be a little bit OP or very OP. Even children can understand that. So... kudos! I made the mistake of taking a troll seriously. Well done. 6/10.

No.

Seriously, you are using the cloak wrong. The cloak is a tool for observation. A scout does not run and gun like an assault does. If you ran into an area, head first into a heavy, it should either be a complete fluke OR you went into a hostile objective. Let the assaults do that. Our job is to cut off reinforcements, stragglers and destroy equipment. The cloak is supposed to help you gain an advantageous position BEFORE you engage the enemy.


This is a problem with KING HP, not with the cloak. EWAR is working well right now, HP mods are still broken very badly.

Range Amps are bad. They kinda have to be at the moment, or shotgunning and nova knifing wouldn't be viable playstyles, and Heavy/Logi blobs would be more broken than they already are.

Precision Enhancers (on the other hand) are working quite well; they're currently the sixth most commonly used High Slot Module: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php

You should try them.