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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6288
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Posted - 2015.02.02 04:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:No wonder no scout uses precision enhancers when running fits with a cloak.
One Precision Enhancer on an MN/CA/GA Scout will pick up single damp'd Assaults (30dB). I run one often.
I do not disagree with you that cloak needs work. I'd personally like to see shimmer refined. It'd also be great if the decloak delay trigger were fixed.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6307
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Posted - 2015.02.03 01:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:
The shimmer is just right. I sometimes catch a scout's shimmer out of the corner of my eye, only to lose them when I turn and scan for them with my cross-hair. Most of the time I catch a cloaked scout's shimmer, they're moving very stupidly, across a wide open space in dark lighting. That's exactly as it should be.
I appreciate your opinion, and you could be right. It's just that it feels a bit too common that I get spotted. I don't think you should be able to run right infront of someone without being seen, but quite often I'll be a good way away, trying to stay around or beyond my opponent's peripheral vision so as not to be seen, and yet I still get spotted. This combined with hearing a lot of people declare that they have stopped using cloaks, makes me feel that they could do with less shimmer. If the cloak isn't for moving across open spaces unseen, what exactly is it for? Standing still and watching is pretty useful, as is cloaked hacking, but the main use of a cloak is for wide flanking. It just feels a bit poor at it's job at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I don't think its massively underpowered or anything, just a bit.
Your assessment is spot on, Varoth.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6329
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:
Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time.
Passive scans are far less competitive than they used to be; EWAR Scouts no longer play a part in PC. The very best an AM Scout can offer is 44 meters at 23 dB; the very best a CA Scout can offer is 58 meters at 26 dB.
PS: Assault Scan Profile with one Complex Dampener is 30 dB. Two is 24 dB.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6331
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:
Thanks for the info - sorry for my misinformation
NP. You're doing good work here. Just wanted to clear that tidbit up. o7
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6333
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Posted - 2015.02.04 02:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
There really was no good reason to take away the passives while cloaked in the first place other than Rattati thought so.
Actually, a pre-1.8 Scout named Haerr came up with the "submarine warfare" idea. At the time, Scouts were overperforming, Assault Lite was still a very real problem, and shotgun efficiency (kills / spawn) had dedicated shotgunners worried about over-correction. Rattati wasn't the only one who thought this a good idea. It's all in the Barbershop.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6333
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Posted - 2015.02.04 02:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6335
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:I'm sorry that a few the guys were rude to you, Aeon. They're a tough crowd at times, but they know their knives and they mean well. In hindsight, I should've seen it coming; should've advised you in advance to bring thick skin. Either way, wish you had stuck with it. It was a fun experiment. -Shrug- Maybe you guys should try being on the receiving end as an Assault sometime.
Pretty much everyone there but me has one. If you count the MN Assault as an Assault :-)
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6339
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for .
Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6339
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:
The Barbershop is just a circle jerk of "scouts" that apparently "know what a scout is supposed to do," and I am against everything it stands for .
Oh my! What exactly is that you think the Barbershop stands for? Off-color circle-jerkery
A curiously nondescript thing to "stand against".
Off-topic, yes. On occasion. But off-color? Don't recall that.
As for a circle-jerk, I'm afraid we argue over everything.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6388
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Posted - 2015.02.05 05:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Beating scans isn't beating the game, Aeon.
If it were, Assaults would not be outselling Scouts at nearly 2:1.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6388
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Posted - 2015.02.05 05:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:All this cloak discussion -- yet OP doesn't make any comment on how scouts (any fast frame really) can lag through frames and ignore damage?
Wiggle-wiggle, framerate and hit detection are separate issues from Cloak.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6392
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Posted - 2015.02.05 13:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Imp Smash wrote:All this cloak discussion -- yet OP doesn't make any comment on how scouts (any fast frame really) can lag through frames and ignore damage? Wiggle-wiggle, framerate and hit detection are separate issues from Cloak. Not really when cloak exasperates hit detection issues. More like, can't buff cloak to work proper till hit detection is fixed. Then cloak can be reverted to original incarnation (weapon swap while cloak included!) and not be OP.
We've no reason to believe that Cloak has any effect on Hit Detection. Further, the original incarnation of cloak was too much. Its active damp bonus permitted Assault Lite to tank and beat scans while the lack of decloak delay and fire-from-cloak facilitated use in frontal attack. It was as much an Assault tool as a sneak tool, and it was nothing short of imbalanced.
The only things about cloak which I think should change:
* Less obvious shimmer; reduced visibility at range in all maps/moods
* Decloak delay fix; delay shouldn't be activated unless decloaking
If these changes are insufficient to make Cloak competitive, then perhaps we can consider less decloak delay and slightly less severe cloak-blind.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6400
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Posted - 2015.02.05 17:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
@ Gyn Wallace
That's a great question. I'll get back with you momentarily.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6407
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Posted - 2015.02.05 22:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:tritan abbattere wrote:Personally i was hoping more for what it is like in eve. When you get close to an enemy you decloak. Otherwise no one can see you while your running it. say like 10 meters or something. Probably me being crazy though. Well that wouldn't be awful, if all other penalties to the cloak were removed... It wouldn't be totally great, but still...
Perfect invisibility out to 10 meters with no decloak delay and no cloak-blind.
That'd be better than great, Gustavo. It'd be broken beyond HMG broken.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6407
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Posted - 2015.02.05 22:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
Yeah it's great but my cynicism will not allow me to dwell in the realm of certainties.
Better concealment would be great. Perfect concealment would be too much. Perfect concealment without decloak delay or sensor loss would be beyond too much. I'm certain enough for the both us that it'd be broken :-)
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6409
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Posted - 2015.02.05 23:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:If these changes are insufficient to make Cloak competitive,... Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive?
Sorry for the delay, Gyn. Again, this is an excellent question.
A. Decloak Delay Bug
First and foremost, the decloak delay bug is a bug and bugs should be fixed. Decloak Delay may not be loved by all, but it is necessary and proper. Delay without Decloak is by definition not "decloak delay"; it is neither necessary nor proper (nor prescribed, nor intended). This bug interferes with fluid gameplay; like all bugs, it tends to get in the way at the worst possible times. Fixing the bug would not amount to buffing cloak; it would amount to fixing a bug.
B. Is Cloak Currently Competitive?
1. Is it the primary function of cloak to offer its user concealment when crossing open terrain?
2. Does cloak perform this primary function reasonably well when used in dark moods/maps/sockets?
3. Do competitive fights ever take place in dark moods/maps/sockets?
We cannot claim that cloak is competitive if it fails to perform its primary function in competitive settings.
C. My Two Cents
The decloak delay bug needs to be fixed. Further, I would absolutely support improvements to shimmer. Cloak is useful some of the time, but "useful some of the time" does not mean competitive. Many good Scouts aren't using cloak at the moment. Most new Scouts can't use cloak at the moment. Cloak isn't healthy. But I'd sooner see it remain sick than be over corrected. Small steps are in order.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6411
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Posted - 2015.02.06 01:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:
Regarding "B," I admit that my experience is necessarily anecdotal and ask you: How many competitive matches really take place on dark maps? I don't find myself in dark maps very often. I'd be fine with cloaks performing better in dark maps and worse in lighter maps, but I don't think that's what regular cloak users really want. Scouts are complaining about a problem that arises in a minority of maps, whereas the rest of the equipment giltches affect logis on every map.
Cloak performs best outdoors in bright light. Most of the fights in PC occur around Null Cannons, and most of the Null Cannons in PC are indoors. Reversing the conditional from works-when-outside to works-when-inside won't make the cloak competitive.
A role bonus should be useful all settings; this is the case with other classes. Logi EQ bonuses apply whether or not EQ is used up high, down low, in the dark or in the light. Sentinel explosive resistance does not degrade as environments grow brighter. Commandos reload just as quickly in the shadows as they do while standing in direct light.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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6442
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Posted - 2015.02.07 02:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:[
E-war isn't working well enough for anyone to use precision enhancers, let alone range amplifiers.
Range Amps are bad. They kinda have to be at the moment, or shotgunning and nova knifing wouldn't be viable playstyles, and Heavy/Logi blobs would be more broken than they already are.
Precision Enhancers (on the other hand) are working quite well; they're currently the sixth most commonly used High Slot Module: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php
I use them often. You should try them.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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