Yeah it's great but my cynicism will not allow me to dwell in the realm of certainties.

Is there any reason to believe that your predicate is true, that cloaks aren't currently competitive?

Gyn, what Adipem is saying that those 2 issues are the only thing that the cloak needs in order to make us happy. One being the glitch where you can't get off cloak if you started running during the switch, and the other the poor design choice of adding a delay to the switch if you are NOT cloaked at all.

We've seen a sizeable group of scouts abandon the cloak because of how it gets stuck, and I think that's what he means by making it competitive. With that said, many of us continue to use the cloak despite the glitchiness of its operation, myself included.

The cloak DOES NOT need any buffs at this point, just bugs fixed. I am convinced it will be fine after that. It needs to not have a delay to swtch when you aren't cloaked to begin with.

A. Decloak Delay Bug
First and foremost, the decloak delay bug is a bug and bugs should be fixed. Decloak Delay may not be loved by all, but it is necessary and proper. Delay without Decloak is by definition not "decloak delay"; it is neither necessary nor proper (nor prescribed, nor intended). This bug interferes with fluid gameplay; like all bugs, it tends to get in the way at the worst possible times. Fixing the bug would not amount to buffing cloak; it would amount to fixing a bug.

B. Is Cloak Currently Competitive?

1. Is it the primary function of cloak to offer its user concealment when crossing open terrain?
2. Does cloak perform this primary function reasonably well when used in dark moods/maps/sockets?
3. Do competitive fights ever take place in dark moods/maps/sockets?

We cannot claim that cloak is competitive if it fails to perform its primary function in competitive settings.

C. My Two Cents
The decloak delay bug needs to be fixed. Further, I would absolutely support improvements to shimmer. Cloak is useful some of the time, but "useful some of the time" does not mean competitive. Many good Scouts aren't using cloak at the moment. Most new Scouts can't use cloak at the moment. Cloak isn't healthy. But I'd sooner see it remain sick than be over corrected. Small steps are in order.

You don't know what you're talking about period. ...

But I'll humor you and ask, "Well Gyn Wallace, why do you think that cloaks shouldn't be buffed? Are you a scout? Do you know what you're talking about? What's the reasoning behind your stance?" I'm genuinely interested.

... You even went as far as taking the most OP thing in the game and saying it should buffed over balancing a play style that has all but been abandoned by anyone that knows anything about E-war. This genuinely infuriates me, you are EVERYTHING wrong with the community, and you don't even give fair reasoning behind your madness, it's disgusting.

How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is.

they need to fix:
-delay applying when you are not even cloaked
-aim assist locking on to cloaked scout you havent seen
-crosshair turning red when moving over cloaked scout you havent seen

Regarding "B," I admit that my experience is necessarily anecdotal and ask you: How many competitive matches really take place on dark maps? I don't find myself in dark maps very often. I'd be fine with cloaks performing better in dark maps and worse in lighter maps, but I don't think that's what regular cloak users really want. Scouts are complaining about a problem that arises in a minority of maps, whereas the rest of the equipment giltches affect logis on every map.

At no point does my logic have anything to do with what you said. I said, specifically, that cloak exasperates hit detection issues. Things are already bad enough that a scout running ferroscale can go toe to toe with an assault who has superior HP and have EVERY bit a good chance at winning. That is OP. Your suit weakness (low ehp) not actually existing PLUS tons of other bonuses. (Speed, better ewar -- even if it's not very good right now it's still better than everyone else's, equipment slots, hit box size, etc...) That weakness doesn't exist because at high speeds hit detection breaks too much. And Cloak takes synergizes with this. If you pretend that scouts couldn't run around slaying toe to toe with people then you are not worth talking to. Especially seeing as they can still do so.

"reasoning"

As I said, the cloak does not affect hit detection. It's a visual effect and nothing more, it does not affect any hitbox. You're right in the current state of E-war there are more brick tanked scouts than anything else. That is not a fault of people who scout, that is a fault of people who choose to do things as unintended whether or not they work. In this case the bricked tanked scout does work, and people choose to do that over E-war because E-war is ineffectual. Scouts are meant to be good at speed and E-war, the assault suit is better at everything else, so I don't know why it's a complaint. E-war being less attractive than HP tanking is the fault of the community for believing the price of an equipment slot is a greater sacrifice than highs and lows, and it should make the active scanner better than E-war.

You're right hit detection should be fixed, but again that is not only an issue on the scout, any suit can strafe and exacerbate hit detection. And yes scouts can be slayers, but that can be said for any other suit as well.

My statement is this: Cloak is broken. Cloak needs to be 'buffed.' In this case buff means fixed. However, it cannot be due to scout's (and certain other suits *coughminassaultcough*) ridiculous hit detection cancelling abilities. Cloak has a high synergy with these abilities giving scouts an effective HP higher than an assault's. Plus the mobility to go be super high EHP at many places on the map. Adding cloak to damage cancelling abilities = something that is unreasonably hard to kill.

...It doesn't matter how fast something is OP is OP and only a proper nerf can fix it.
The scout suit itself cannot outmaneuver anything, ...

Sometimes you can just quote something silly, and give everyone pause to reread it and contemplate just how silly it is. The trouble with quoting your post, was trying to pair it down to only the most silly parts.

It is precisely the scout's speed that makes it relatively easy for scouts to avoid OP heavies, and comparatively hard for heavies to avoid OP scouts. That is obvious enough that it can't seriously be disputed.

I'm having trouble believing that you really can't understand that OPness can happen in degrees, that something can be a little bit OP or very OP. Even children can understand that. So... kudos! I made the mistake of taking a troll seriously. Well done. 6/10.

[quote=gustavo acosta]
[...]
they're so close to being well balanced already, that I lack confidence that CCP is capable of taking a small enough step to buff the shimmer without making cloaks OP again.

The cloak user can be seen from a mile away, I mean, I can head shot those guys with a sniper rifle is how easily they are spotted. I'm not asking you to change that but it needs to be re-balanced. It doesn't really offer much for how much it takes away.

Not only does it make all those precision enhancers and range extenders you put on useless, it gives are a really long battle wise delay. 1 second delay is enough for weapons to do 400+ damage and 900+ incase of the HMG.

BUT- since we have no ewar while using cloak, this increases out chances of run face first into an enemy and adding in the stupid delay- we are literally at a disadvantage every single time.

I spent 2.5 million + SP to get my Prototype Caldari Scout and when I cloak up, I lose all my ewar. No wonder no scout uses precision enhancers when running fits with a cloak.

It's not fair!! Give me either one, either give me my ewar back or give me no decloak delay. It is super annoying being blinder than a heavy. Not only does it not make sense that a scout has worse ewar than a heavy, but on top of that, the stupid delay makes life impossible.

The current ewar system is pretty bad for scouts, our range is really low even while decloaked, range extenders are a waste of slot and on top of that, the cloak takes away all the range. I mean, you might aswell use a logistics suit for ewar than a scout because we are now not even scouting. Scouts are the guys that hide and have no clue where the enemy is. This is the role being projected at me when I lost 85% of my range.

Have you seen caldari scouts is PC? They all have 453 shields because since this stupid cloak range nerf, there is not one reason to use a precision enhancer.

Also- Gal logi does a scouts job 5x better. I can literally sit in a corner all match in my dampened gal logi and provide ewar with my 4 scanners TO THE WHOLE TEAM and get WP out of it. What does it scout do?

Our job is to cut off reinforcements, stragglers and destroy equipment.

[...]
I don't think the cloak needs a buff maybe some changes on how it works. But i think the problem is The scout resorts to HAHA i can kill a full team with a shotgun i bet. Then rages because a logi with shotgun kills him or a sniper pegs him. The scout is very fragile and needs more then stealth to be fun. Could you imagine if scouts focused on setting up traps. example remote Web-nets. Galente scout could get a bonus to this and it basically impairs the enemy movement for few seconds. Amarr could have a thing to make weapons malfunction(makng RoF inconsitent and on averaged lowered). maybe minmatar could get remote hacking equipment. there so much stuff the scouts could have to make the game more interesting. I guess im asking for the recon ships in eve on the ground.

Kinda the main reason i play logi. its the most interesting role in the game. if they add this i would start to try more then minmatar hacking scout.

No it doesn't. The synergy and effective hp I mean. The scout might, but the cloak has nothing to do with it, by that I mean other than being unable to see cloaked person completely.

No.

Seriously, you are using the cloak wrong. The cloak is a tool for observation. A scout does not run and gun like an assault does. If you ran into an area, head first into a heavy, it should either be a complete fluke OR you went into a hostile objective. Let the assaults do that. Our job is to cut off reinforcements, stragglers and destroy equipment. The cloak is supposed to help you gain an advantageous position BEFORE you engage the enemy.


This is a problem with KING HP, not with the cloak. EWAR is working well right now, HP mods are still broken very badly.

[
E-war isn't working well enough for anyone to use precision enhancers, let alone range amplifiers.

Range Amps are bad. They kinda have to be at the moment, or shotgunning and nova knifing wouldn't be viable playstyles, and Heavy/Logi blobs would be more broken than they already are.

Precision Enhancers (on the other hand) are working quite well; they're currently the sixth most commonly used High Slot Module: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php

You should try them.

they need to fix:
-delay applying when you are not even cloaked
-aim assist locking on to cloaked scout you havent seen
-crosshair turning red when moving over cloaked scout you havent seen

find solution for that and I am happy.