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Piercing Serenity
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Posted - 2015.02.02 04:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Imp Smash wrote:Potential methods to use cloak use:
1:Sneak around the battlefield.
2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy.
3: Scan
4: Hit them in the rear.
5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is.
What happened to the "Eyes are OP" statements thrown around before the cloak was nerfed.
I think that the cloak should be less clunky, and there is room for improvement. But if "Eyes are OP" was a valid response for why the cloak should not have been nerfed in the first place, then it should be more than a valid response for how you should pick up the other non-cloaked suits on the field.
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Posted - 2015.02.02 15:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Kain Spero wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:Imp Smash wrote:Potential methods to use cloak use:
1:Sneak around the battlefield.
2:Decloak behind and away from the enemy.
3: Scan
4: Hit them in the rear.
5:Profit How am I suppose to do #2 when I have no clue where the enemy is. Standard issue Eyeballs and a friendly active scan. So some form of ewar? I cant just spin 360 all match making sure nobody sneaking up on me from back.
Again, this is the same argument that was used against non-cloak users to defend themselves from sneak attack. It was just phrased differently:
- "Always check your surroundings..."
- "Never assume you are alone or safe..."
- etc.
I'm not sure if you were part of the group of scouts who made that argument. However, 'you' (in an abstract sense of the word) can't have your cake and eat it too. The situation you're describing sounds like the situation that non-cloak users are in when they fight cloak users. So, you should be able to use the same advice that was given before.
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Posted - 2015.02.02 19:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close.
You are correct. It is a scout. And it can scout out different positions with its high speed, as well. Being a scout isn't defined by "How strong is my radar", because if it was, then anyone with enough EWAR modules would be a "scout". Being a scout includes higher mobility, lower profile, etc.
To answer your question again, more succinctly, you can scout without being wholly dependent on your mini-map. You can also use your suit inherent speed and stamina bonuses to visually confirm enemies, and then escape without detection via your inherently reduced profile.
TL:DR - There is more than one way to be a scout
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Posted - 2015.02.03 05:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Piercing Serenity wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
But listen to your self.. It's a scout suit... it scouts... it should know where enemy is... You might as well call it a light frame if it can't scout. Anyway, with 2 complex precision mods on my Amarr Assault, I can pick up scouts 9/10 when they come close.
You are correct. It is a scout. And it can scout out different positions with its high speed, as well. Being a scout isn't defined by "How strong is my radar", because if it was, then anyone with enough EWAR modules would be a "scout". Being a scout includes higher mobility, lower profile, etc. To answer your question again, more succinctly, you can scout without being wholly dependent on your mini-map. You can also use your suit inherent speed and stamina bonuses to visually confirm enemies, and then escape without detection via your inherently reduced profile. TL:DR - There is more than one way to be a scout So what do u have against Cloaking range nerf removed. Also, a min Assault can run at 10.4 m/s and have a DB under 25. Therefore min Assault is just a tankier faster Scout?
If the basis of the argument for restore the radar range of scouts while in the cloak is "The current system does not allow me to be a scout", then a faulty line of reasoning is what I have against the cloaking range nerf removed. As I mentioned earlier, the inherent bonuses that the scout suit receives allows you to scout in different ways.
To address your comment about the Minmatar Assault, it is rather cherry picked. Yes, you have shown that you can put two Complex Kincats and two Complex profile dampeners on an Minmatar assault to try and copy the bonuses of a scout suit. This is a product of the fitting system in Dust. However, that proto Min Ass would still be out preformed by a scout with the same modules.
You can brick tank a scout suit to emulate an assault suit. It will function like an assault suit (Or even better, in the case of some scouts). But that is a straw man argument. We're not debating the ability for other suits to copy the functions of a role different from their own. We're debating how damaging the cloak - as it stands - is to the ability of a scout to preform its duties. And my position of "Not very damaging, all things considered" still stands
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Posted - 2015.02.03 16:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies.If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning.
Example: Assaults get a 25% reduction to weapons and grenades cpu/pg, well what if every weapon that was equipped on an assault, and fired would make the assault suit lose 85% of hp tank. I mean assaults are supposed to be good at killing right? It doesn't say that assaults need to be good at surviving.
That's the current state of the cloak and the scout. It would be fine if scouts didn't get a bonus to the cloak,or if it was completely removed, because then it wouldn't be a balancing issue in terms of role bonuses, but it is.
To address the disparity between the scout and assault. No, in no case of pure fitting capabilities, combat capabilities, and versatility, the assault will always win. The scout's ability to use passive scanning is also inferior to active scanners, so literally everyone is fine that the scout's role has been completely aborted in place of penalizing the real cause of disparity in the scout ranks, that being scouts benefiting from E-war even though said suit is mainly hp tanking.
It's not an issue to the community anymore because the assault has been buffed enough so that hp tanking a scout is "inferior" to an assault suit's hp tank.
All in all it doesn't really matter anymore, what's done is done, and there is very little chance that this will be revisited anytime soon so...
- The issues with the cloak as it stands it that it prevents the scout suit from avoiding detection by removing 85% it's scan range, if a scout can't detect enemies, it cannot effectively avoid enemies.
I find this to be inaccurate, largely due to the arguments that "Eyes are OP", and "You should improve your situational awareness if you're getting ganked by scouts" posed by cloak users. As I mentioned earlier, being a scout is not bounded by how strong your radar is. All of the advice given to non-cloak users before the nerf was implemented should be applicable to cloak users, especially because the radar of a scout using a cloak is similar to the radar of every other suit in the game all of the time.
- If a scout has dedicated x amount of slots to scanning (which would be ludicrous in the current state of passive scanning but that's beside the point) it is a beyond ridiculous penalty considering how much has been put into one's passive scanning.
I will address this point, and your example here. The cloak is essentially an active module. Its use, and associated penalties, is a choice. If you are about to enter a high traffic area, then you have to chose to either rely on your inherent suit bonuses or your cloak field to move through the area. Both options have their merits and virtues, as well as their own issues. I agree that the way the delay works should be fixed, because it feels clunky. The range nerf, in its intent, is perfectly fine. I'm certainly not against tweaking numbers on the range nerf, however.
The fact that using a cloak field is an active choice making your example a false equivalence - besides for the fact that it is a poorly constructed analogy anyway. The intent of the cloak field is to be a defensive, positioning tool. The intent of a weapon is to be an offensive tool.
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Posted - 2015.02.03 17:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
I don't see why Assaults don't get ganked by heavies but scouts do? There have been numerous times where a heavy has been like 7m behind me and I have no clue. It's called a scout suit for a reason. It's suppose to be king of ewar yet it is not and it have bonuses to a piece of equipment that penalizes their scouting role.
Also-no that is completely false, my freking heavy has a better ewar than a scout that is cloaked.
Also- again if scouts had ewar while cloaked... doesn't that mean they are doing their role?? They are hard to detect except they know where everything is. Rattati called this a double threat so he removed the ewar while cloaked but if you think about it, a heavy is a dual threat too.
Heavies has 2-3 times the hp of medium suits and have the highest DPS weapon in the game.This allows them to be proficient at point defense, no other suit is as good as the heavy at its role.
Now for scouts, almost any suit except heavies can be boss mode ewar. Not to mention the the gallante logi is possibly the best scout out there.
Also- in the scout suits circumstance- its role is soley based on the fact that it has a strong radar.You're so called "Eyes are OP" shouldn't really apply to the scout. It's Radar should be OP. the way you design scout- any suit can do it even a heavy. You go to a point and you look around for enemies- that role is no specific to the scout.
*in battle more coming soon*
Between:
- "Scouts [should be] hard to detect, except they know where everything is..." (Bold)
- "...In the scout suit's circumstance - its role is solely based on the fact that is has a strong radar..." (Bold)
- "Your so called 'Eyes are OP' shouldn't really apply to scouts..." (Bold)
I can see that game balance is not what you are looking for. No suit can have the "Boss mode" Ewar that a scout can have unless it is gimped. You cannot compare a competitive scout fitting to a gimped assault fitting and call them equal. Gal Logis using an active scanner is also an active module of sorts, with its own draw backs. Finally, yes! You can use any suit to fill any role you want. Welcome to Dust514. However, some suits fulfill these roles better than others. There is no way to use a heavy suit as an effective scout. There are ways to build a Min Assault into a modest scout. That is one of the design goals of the fitting system - options and choice.
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
How is a assault with ewar gimmped? A scout with ewar is gimmped. Low hp-can't scan while cloaked so makes all ewar modules pointless-and without cloak survivable. To you, this isn't about balanced, it's about you having your FOTM assault/heavy or what ever you are be the only thing viable.
BTW- assaults have two extra module high/low which with ewar modules put them at scout level. Therefore- Assault=scout but Assault HP>Scout.
. A scout running ewar modules is a the ugly duckling out.
P.S. if you do PC, you know almost every PC there is a gal logi with 4 active scanners that can keep the team scanned all match.
The only ewar module that is worth a damn on a scout is dampening.
Anyway, forget everything- give me one good, and I mean really good reason with an explanation to why a lot of scouts don't run cloak anymore and the ones that do usually are brick tanked? BTW- don't say this is false because I for a fact know it is true.
The Assault can litterally do everything a scout can do while maintaining higher HP. No way in hell is a Assault suit running ewar modules gimmped.
The only thing a assault can't do is fit a cloak but he'll, cloak is so sh*t you might as well remove it from the game.
The Cloak and the scout circumstance is equivalent to if a Gallante Logistics suit is using a Scanner- everybody on the map should know where he is. It is only fair.
If when you are a scout you sacrifice all your scan range for be harder to detect, any suit using an active scanner should sacrifice it's detection to detect others. If any suit is using a repair tool- it should sacrifice it's own Armor repair per sec to repair another suit. If a dropsuit is using a a nanohive, the suit should sacrifice secondary ammo for primary ammo.
Why is it only equipment with drawbacks is the cloak?
An Assault with EWAR is not gimped. Nowhere in my post did I say that. I claimed that an Assault that tried to match the abilities of a scout would need to gimp its suit to do so. Case and Point: I run a Complex dampener on all of my suits, granting me some measure of scan protection. This puts my Scan Profile at 35, I believe (Though this is off of the top of my head). However, if I tried to get down to 25 dB and 10.40m/s, I would need to get a proto Min Assault and fill all of my low slots with Kincat and Damps to achieve something that scouts can do with far less module cost. I was arguing that there are far more competitive Min Assault builds than that, and that the aforementioned fitting was "gimped" by comparison.
Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time.
As for my motives, I don't have any. I just disagree with your faulty argument for removing the nerf, is all. I'm fine with fixing the numbers, or the mechanics of engaging and disengaging the cloak, but the spirit of the nerf is fine to me.
Finally, you sacrifice your scan range optionally to be both visually and electronically harder to detect. This is inline with dampening being more rewarding than scanning, by and large. This bonus is just not free of cost.
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
You're right it is a poorly constructed analogy, I forgot to add a movement speed reduction on top of it all. The argument can be made that "firing your weapon is a choice, you shouldn't be able to just shoot someone without warning it's OP," but that's beside the point.
The cloak is meant to be used to avoid detection, this is it's fundamental function. The delay alone is enough to prevent any combat capabilities that a scout may have, beyond that, range to passive scans is currently minuscule to begin with, so I don't know what dystopian society you think the current meta will become if a scout can scan a heavy, and maybe an assault at 30m while cloaked, if that.
The cloak is the only piece of equipment that has any penalties to it, it is the only piece of equipment that penalizes a suit for it's use. Every other form of play style has absolutely no penalties, not trade-offs, penalties. If someone equips a weapon there is a guarantee that he will be able to shoot people, if someone were to stack hp there is a guarantee that they will not die as quickly. The only guarantee that the cloak provides is "enemies may or may not be able to see you, at the price of all the high slots you dedicated to precision, and lows to range." And no the radar while cloaked is nothing like the radar of
other suits other suits can still scan people with base scans on say an assault.
There is no guarantee of anything with the cloak, there's 50-50 chance you'll be seen, and if you are seen there is a penalty that will not allow you to defend yourself for 5 seconds, which is an exponentially larger value than the current TTK.
Your argument about the cloak being the only piece of equipment to have a penalty is not a good comparison. The cloak is the only piece of equipment of its kind. It is the only active module that effects a statistic - in this case, scan profile - of a dropsuit, at will (essentially). Of course no other piece of equipment has the downsides of the cloak. No other piece of equipment works like a cloak. Secondly, in general, if you want to compare the cloak to anything it has to be equipment - not weapons or modules. Weapons and modules do not function in the same way that equipment does at all: the bonuses they confer are all passive. So you should pick a more appropriate object to compare cloaks too.
Finally, there is absolutely a binary nature of being seen: You are either seen or not. Using a cloak tips the scale further in the direction of "not being seen". So its certainly not 50/50. It is situational. To complain about a lack of a guarantee would be to ignore the active scanner - there is no guarantee that you will scan anything. The advantages you get from activating your cloak field, the change to avoid damage by avoiding detection, secure advantageous positioning, etc - are much larger than the advantages that you get from using a scanner. There is just a cost with such large advantages.
To be clear, I'm not against tweaking the numbers for the range penalty. Nor am I against fixing clunky mechanics. But the basis of Sir Dukey's argument is weak, and all of the "advice" offered to non-scouts before the nerf can be applied to scouts now
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Piercing Serenity wrote:
Secondly, on PC, there is also a scout that runs all EWAR modules to give passive scans to their team, if I recall correctly. In this case, compared to the Gal Logi, the Cal Scout will be able to see all of the suits in a 80m+ area all of the time, while the Gal logi can only see all of the suits in a 90 degree arc some of the time.
Passive scans are far less competitive than they used to be; EWAR Scouts no longer play a part in PC. The very best an AM Scout can offer is 44 meters at 23 dB; the very best a CA Scout can offer is 58 meters at 26 dB. The only realistic form of competitive recon available is that provided by proto Active Scanners; the GA Logi is presently the best recon unit in the game. PS: Assault Scan Profile with one Complex Dampener is 30 dB. Two is 24 dB.
Thanks for the info - sorry for my misinformation
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Posted - 2015.02.04 00:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
False because is PC there is a Gal logi- all scouts are slayers-hackers-uplink destroyers. No scout in PC does that anymore every since the nerfs. Also Passive scans only available to one squad unlike Active scans. Also- It's a scan Gal logi with all scanners that he cycles. There is a video on youtube somewhere of a guy doing this.
And again, why is the cloak the only piece of equipment with a down side? Let's balance it according to other equipment or nerf other equipment to have trade offs. Also, if you think people run proto cloaks- they don't due to massive fitting costs therefore the most we run are advanced which offers 5% dampeneing. WOWW, I'm 1.75 DB LOWER THAN NORMAL! 1.75 db isn't anything.
Also- since your argument is completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to keep it the way it is.
My argument is not any more opinion based than anything else said in this article. The debate is:
- "Is the range nerf applied to scouts appropriate?"
Your answer to that question is: "No, it is not appropriate. Scouts lose their ability to scout with this nerf."
My answer to that question is: "Yes, it is appropriate. Scouts are not defined by their radar strength."
Your supporting evidence is that scouts should be able to cloak and have radar superiority, and that scouts should not have to rely on visual situational awareness as much as other suits.
My supporting evidence is that scouts have other bonuses that allow them to scout in other ways - visually, for example - which are unaffected by the range nerf. Furthermore, scouts should take their own advice, and no suit should have the ability to "rely less on visual situational awareness" based on their class.
This is entirely an opinion based discussion. I just think your argument is flawed, and your supporting points are not in the name of balance. And, to bring things full circle: Since your argument is also completely opinion based, there is no real good reason to change the way things are.
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Posted - 2015.02.04 04:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
The active scanner is also an active module/piece of equipment, which effects the scan range and precision of a suit. The role of an assault is to kill therefore it is given a bonus to weapons fittings, the role of a scout is to avoid detection enough to do stuff. They're the same thing because they both give role bonuses.
It is most certainly 50-50 when enemies are present there is a 50-50 chance, the only time the cloak is useful is when there are enemies present. No Enemies=No reason to hide from enemies. With the Active Scanner there is a 100% chance you will no whether or not there are enemies present.
Yes, that's a solid argument "being able to see 90% of the enemy team is much less useful than not being scanned/seen by enemies hurka durka." You might have well had said "shotguns are best at long ranges." There is no cost to the active scanner. I don't know what you consider an advantage, but if you think cloaks are an advantage what Divine Almighty Power do you consider the Active Scanner?
- The active scanner does not effect the scan range and precision of a suit, because it is one-directional while the suit's native scans are omni-directional. However, I understand that my problem with your statement can be considered one of semantics, so I will concede that an active scanner can be classified in the same way as a cloak field.
- The role of a scout is to visual and electronically confirm targets, and assassinate said targets by closing the distance quickly. Scouts get a bonus to complete all of these jobs. "Avoiding Detection" can be done in more ways than one.
- By definition of "being harder to see", being detected while using a cloak field is not a 50/50 probability event. If you are "harder to see", then then you are more likely to go unseen than to be detected. So, the ratio could be something like 60/40 or 90/10. Just anything greater than 50/50.
- The cloak can be used usefully when there are no enemies present - it can be used preemptively, for example. If you notice a suit within your 40m scan range, you can cloak before they see you and plan your route around - or behind - their position. It is a defensive and positional tool. Only one of those descriptors (defensive) requires enemy presence
- You are correct in saying that "When using the active scanner, you are 100% sure whether or not enemies are present". However, the information that "there are no enemies currently in the 90 degree (or less) field of view that you have" is not very powerful information. For all you know, the enemy could be there just a second after you scanned and you could be walking into a trap. Further more, the active scanner has a chance to fail even when someone is inside its radius. So, you will know that someone is in your arc, but not know anything more than that. The active scanner does not have that failure. If you are standing still, you will never become more opaque because someone is looking in your direction.
- Active scanners are mostly likely "more powerful" - by which I mean more commonly used - than active cloaks because they are easy to use relative to the utility they provide. You can scan and help your team immediately. The cost to benefit ratio may be skewed, but that discussion would belong in a "Nerf active scanners" thread. Cloaks have a higher skill curve, a higher potential reward, and a higher trade off. Personally, I would rather be able to sneak up and kill a logi repping a heavy than know that there is a logi repping a heavy 20m in front of me.
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Posted - 2015.02.04 06:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
6. No the active scanner is more powerful-as in more resourceful, more range, equal to or greater precision than a scout's scans-180 degrees of 100m scans after a 20 second cool down is much better than 30m at the price of x amount of lows and highs. No they do not have a higher reward because skill curve, they have as much reward as any other module that may or may not shoot you in the foot, oh wait the cloak is the only equipment that penalizes you for what you fit on your suit huh...
5. 90 degree field if you don't swing the active scanner like people who use the active scanner do. If scanners didn't have a fixed, long range that shows directionals(which was supposed to be removed) it wouldn't be an issue, but again that's beside the point.
4. There is no chance anyone will ever see anyone at 40m with passive scans, unless they're a logi, so let me knock that right out of your head right now. Even if you could the 6m of range that the cloak will leave you with won't let you predict how that suit is going to move. So positioning is out the window.
3. 50-50 is not far fetched by any means some people will see you and some people won't. There's no way of know whose seen you and who hasn't therefore it's 50-50.
2. The issue is the cloak working against avoiding detection, don't deviate from that just because you can't come up with a good response to it. The scout bonus only applies to cloak fitting optimization nothing else, fundamentally meaning to use the cloak, even if you were right how do nova knife damage increases help avoid detection, here's a tip genius, they don't.
Point 1:
I may have understated the usefulness of active scanners. That's fair. However, I still believe that the utility that can be gained by using a cloak is higher than the utility gained by using an active scanner. Using active scanners just casts a much larger net, on a community that tends to not run dampeners on their suits. However, that's an opinion that I've stated a few times before. If you disagree with it then we might just disagree more fundamentally, in which case I'd probably have to sit on the thoughts in this thread a little longer and just think.
Point 2:
As you mentioned, this is a separate issue for a different thread
Point 3:
I do not know what at what range a sufficiently precision-tanked scout can see the majority of suits, so I will take your word that it is some range less than 40m. However, at ranges less than 40m, you don't need to use your radar to predict the general motion of the suit. You can stay out of LoS and be hidden to the suit until he is close enough for you to feel confident in predicting his motion, then activate your cloak. However, I think that you are overstating the difficulty in predicting the motion of someone at 40m. Most people do not run random patterns to throw off anyone who might be looking. They generally run the shortest distance between themselves and whatever objective - supply depot, nanohive, etc - they are pursuing.
Point 4:
As I said earlier, the nature of "being more difficult to see" inherently makes the odds slanted towards "not detected". Some will see you, but less people will see you than if you were in the same position without the cloak.
Point 5: The cloak works against EWAR detection due to the visual "protection" it offers. I'm not deviating from any point because I can't think of anything. It's just because I disagree with you. The scout receives other bonuses native to the suit that allow it to scout in other ways. I'm not sure why being a scout must either be "Having complete EWAR superiority all of the time" or "We are no longer scouts". As I mentioned before, I'm not against tweaking the values of the range nerf. That's just a problem of degree.
Finally, the extra jabs and comments are pretty unnecessary. We're having a simple discussion. I'm not angry at you in the least. I'm arguing about the utility of equipment in a video game. This is not to say that I don't care about DUST - I truly do. It's only to make the point that having all of this tension over the discussion is pretty unwarranted, given the context.
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