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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7075	Posted - 2014.09.15 08:34:00 - [1] - Quote Everyone, here are some mathematical findings on the Swarm changes. I have researched some scenarios and how the interaction might play out. I am even more convinced now that these will turn out ok for the ADS, but pilots will have to adapt their tactics, and they will from Delta and onwards, lose a few more Assault Dropships, hence the price drop of ADS and Small Turrets, PG/CPU drop of small Turrets and PG/CPU buff of normal Dropships. Since they always bailout, most pilots will only lose more money. With the current KDR we see in our data, this will not create an unfair situation. Hovering will be more dangerous for sure, and have to be done at longer ranges. Overall, damage will be done in shorter, more tactical engagements (drive-by's) or longer range. TLDR; Current Scenario = Survival Scenarios Hover at ADS speed of 0, at Distance > 60m, need to tank 1 full Swarm with AB (chart) Hover at ADS speed of 0, at Distance > 60m, need to tank 2 full Swarms without AB Maintain ADS speed > 3 m/s, at Distance = 0, need to tank 2 full Swarms with AB Maintain ADS speed > 11 m/s, at Distance = 0, need to tank 2 full Swarms without AB Hotfix Delta = Survival Scenarios against single max skill Swarm Infantry Hover at ADS speed of 0, at Distance > 80m, need to tank 2 full Swarms and AB (chart) Hover at ADS speed of 0, at Distance > 95m, need to tank 3 full Swarms without AB Maintain ADS speed > 10 m/s, at Distance = 0, need to tank 2 full Swarms and AB Maintain ADS speed > 13 m/s, at Distance = 0, need to tank 2 full Swarms with no AB Maintain ADS speed > 8 m/s, at Distance = 0, need to tank 3 full Swarms with no AB Charts Assault Dropships vs Max SKill Prototpe Swarm Infantry: Charlie Assault Dropships vs Max SKill Prototpe Swarm Infantry: Delta Thanks and please keep this discussion fact based and not whether or not I personally fly dropships, I try to deal in data and facts. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1742	Posted - 2014.09.15 09:05:00 - [2] - Quote "Drive-bys" as you say are difficult to do against vehicles, let alone infantry. Perhaps there could be some stabilization added to dropship turrets to make firing on targets while moving easier? I speak of gunner seats, stabilization doesn't factor into the front turret. For instance, when I gun in a Python, my missiles tend to go seemingly randon directions as the ADS flips about. The dropship leans forward, the missiles tend to go up, for example. I can compensate somewhat with practice, but I can only get them to go in a general area unless he holds still. Now if my pilot decides to go nuts and test how fast he can twirl his dropship around, I can understand not being very accurate. However, making accurate shots requires the dropship to be almost absolutely still, especially in the case of an Incubus gunner with a rail turret. Stabilization would go a long way in making drive-bys a rewarding tactic. We can no longer hols still and have our gunners fire until we get hit, but it would be nice for my gunners to accurately engage targets while on the move. Shoot Scout with yes.
Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 611	Posted - 2014.09.15 09:34:00 - [3] - Quote "Drive-bys"... LOL... That's a great idea considering that basically everything will only start rendering when you are very close. Most of the time you will have run past a target before it renders if you are trying to "drive-by". And it happenend to me so many times that when enemy infantry is on uneven ground I can hardly deal damage with a missile launcher because of some bug or something screwing up damage application of splash damage so that I am forced to hover and shoot continuely at them. "Drive-bys" against tanks that rep 200 HP/s, yeah, no. I honestly don't get why swarms need to be more effective against ADS. They are so damn easy to use and one good swarmer is usually able to keep an ADS away, not destroying it, but making it hard for the ADS to deal substantial damage. Or even make the ADS crash into some building because it gets completely knocked around by a swarm hit in the wrong spot. And as soon as there are 2 AV players working together the ADS is toast anyway or at least won't get close in order to not lose 500k ISK. If it's not AV that destroys your ADS then it's those stupid assholes that ram your ADS with a militia drop ship and kill you in one hit. If it was possible to fit a militia suit to instantly kill a proto suit or to destroy a tank with a militia tank by just running into them I don't think it would take you long to fix it due to the outcry in the forums but this cheap tactic against ADS seems to be fine with you. The simple fact that every ADS HAS TO USE AFTERBURNERS to not get constantly killed by swarmers should show you how good they already are. How about you first fix damage indicators, improve rendering, make ramming less effective before you nerf/buff either swarms or ADS? Sorry for the rant but this had to be said. Scouts are easy mode. // @JebusMcKing
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1139	Posted - 2014.09.15 09:59:00 - [4] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: "Drive-bys"... LOL... That's a great idea considering that basically everything will only start rendering when you are very close. Most of the time you will have run past a target before it renders if you are trying to "drive-by". And it happenend to me so many times that when enemy infantry is on uneven ground I can hardly deal damage with a missile launcher because of some bug or something screwing up damage application of splash damage so that I am forced to hover and shoot continuely at them. "Drive-bys" against tanks that rep 200 HP/s, yeah, no. I honestly don't get why swarms need to be more effective against ADS. They are so damn easy to use and one good swarmer is usually able to keep an ADS away, not destroying it, but making it hard for the ADS to deal substantial damage. Or even make the ADS crash into some building because it gets completely knocked around by a swarm hit in the wrong spot. And as soon as there are 2 AV players working together the ADS is toast anyway or at least won't get close in order to not lose 500k ISK. If it's not AV that destroys your ADS then it's those stupid assholes that ram your ADS with a militia drop ship and kill you in one hit. If it was possible to fit a militia suit to instantly kill a proto suit or to destroy a tank with a militia tank by just running into them I don't think it would take you long to fix it due to the outcry in the forums but this cheap tactic against ADS seems to be fine with you. The simple fact that every ADS HAS TO USE AFTERBURNERS to not get constantly killed by swarmers should show you how good they already are. How about you first fix damage indicators, improve rendering, make ramming less effective before you nerf/buff either swarms or ADS? Sorry for the rant but this had to be said. MLT frames can to 1 shot Pro suits... Have you ever heard of REs? HAVs can be 1 shot too... Have you ever heard of JLAVS? Most of CCPs numbers take into account ADS' infantry support. In PCs ADS accel crazily,with very little support. ADS pilots don't realise your job is to clear the ground so the troops you're supposed to be transporting can take a point. You aren't supposed to be a mobile battle platform,HAVs are. HAVs aren't for troop transporting and they only have seats for gunners. ADS' have been out of control for a while,and are finally being reigned back into their intended purpose. Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7079	Posted - 2014.09.15 10:07:00 - [5] - Quote This discussion is immediately looking like it is going to get derailed by bickering. Please consider this the final warning to stay on the topic and contribute meaningful opinions to the matter at hand. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4108	Posted - 2014.09.15 10:33:00 - [6] - Quote Nobody does drive by dropshipping cause its near impossible with the current aim mechanics and the fact that infantry takes time to render in our line of sight. And because you nerbat small rails into oblivion it will aswell be harder to stay with a dropship at distance. Ah well maybe you could instakill infantry with a stacked incubus and the splash from small blasters thats about to come. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
Haerr Legio DXIV 1386	Posted - 2014.09.15 10:44:00 - [7] - Quote @Jebus Edit: your rant got deleted, posting reply in corp instead. (^_^ ) @Rattati The Python do get knocked around too easily by being hit though, while the Incubus doesn't get knocked off target enough. Maybe you can make the Python slightly more stable and the Incubus slightly slower to turn (so that being hit is still a nuisance). Well it is going to be more interesting to ADS at least but I have to agree with the lol drive-bys... sentiment.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7081	Posted - 2014.09.15 10:52:00 - [8] - Quote Please continue taking "drive-bys" out of context and we are done here. It just means keep, moving. It even says "3m/s" minimum speed. You can hover and kill non AV infantry You can hover and kill non AV HAV's You can not hover and engage multiple targets while also being under attack by a swarm launcher but you can move away and then engage in a strafing run. It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

anaboop NECROM0NGERS 147	Posted - 2014.09.15 11:00:00 - [9] - Quote Im not sure I understand those charts, maybe others dont as well. Im all for ads having a harder time, increased time away from battle AB cd increase blah blah blah. Even taking more hits . They dont need to blow up just keeping them away from everything is enough to keep me happy. Could you explain the charts a little more? In idiot terms for me lol Fully sick Anaboop trading card

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7081	Posted - 2014.09.15 11:07:00 - [10] - Quote anaboop wrote: Im not sure I understand those charts, maybe others dont as well. Im all for ads having a harder time, increased time away from battle AB cd increase blah blah blah. Even taking more hits . They dont need to blow up just keeping them away from everything is enough to keep me happy. Could you explain the charts a little more? In idiot terms for me lol In the haste to get this out, i only wrote the TLDR. No idiot terms, just normal. The scenario plays out like this. The point of first impact is the first star. We base the calculation off of the pilot being hit unaware. The distance to the dropship and the swarm launcher is the y-axis cur off point with the ADS blue line. On impact, the ADS immedately heads away from the swarm seeking to reach a distance of 400, or get out of lock range, whatever comes first. While the dropship is moving away, and increasing speed as you see by the gentle curve of the distance covered, missiles 2 and 3 are locked and fired. By playing with the original distiance from ADS and Swarm Launcher, we came up with these scenarios above. In the second chart, it is enough for the ADS to move out to 80 metres and hover, and still survive 2 swarms and the third doesnt catch up with the ADS before it explodes at 400 meters. Hope that helped. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.09.15 11:13:00 - [11] - Quote i dont understand the relationship between ADS distance and Swarm impact. some of the swarm impacts are beyond the swarm max range. how is that possible?
Syeven Reed Sebiestor Field Sappers 864	Posted - 2014.09.15 11:16:00 - [12] - Quote anaboop wrote: Im not sure I understand those charts, maybe others dont as well. Im all for ads having a harder time, increased time away from battle AB cd increase blah blah blah. Even taking more hits . They dont need to blow up just keeping them away from everything is enough to keep me happy. Could you explain the charts a little more? In idiot terms for me lol I know what you mean, I'm having a hard time too! I think the charts are trying to put across that ADS are going to be chased away easier. I guess this would mean that they can stick around and try to kill the swarmer before they shoot off that final volley and risk there ISK, or run away to fight again at a much later interval in time due to the change of afterburners. ... I think. Word Crimes EvE - 21 Day Buddy Trial
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 76	Posted - 2014.09.15 11:25:00 - [13] - Quote Well, as far as I'm concerned , no graph or stats will ever replace a combat situation, but this look good and is going to be interesting to say the least. I look forward to adapt my gameplay. I consider it a first step in order to give vehicles a new breath. But we will need much more than that if you want vehicles to be ready and battle-proved for Legion. However, I still ask you to reconsider the gap that you are going to create beetween the price of tanks and dropships per tier level (especially the proto level). Unless you consider droping the ISK price of tanks turrets to put them in league with the prices of proto ADS, I think the gap will definitly favor ADS (more mobility, less costly, fire-rate bonus). The AV balance have greatly change with the second chance that have been accorded to the swarms. Now, the problem is dropships and vehicles in general are going te be a bit easier to kill, so I understand the price lowering as the number of AV needed to counter vehicles is getting lower. What is not normal is that dropships will become cheapest than tanks while being more tacticals assets (transporting people, able to reach any enemy except underground). In other words, with it's capability it should at least have the same price, and even be costlier than tanks. If I'm not wrong (and I'm pretty sure I'm not on this one) a logistic dropsuit is always costlier than the other dropsuits at the same tier, because it is more tactical and can give the upper hand in a fight. But what you want to do is to drop the price of this formidable asset ONLY. And that's what is wrong with this ISK change. I know for a fact that most of the pilots in training are seeing the ISK drop as a good thing (hell, I would have the same reaction than you if I were in your place. After all, I have been like you and I see pilots in training every day in my corp). However, you have to keep in mind that the first ADS pilots have gone through far worst than you (swarm with 400m of lock on, rail tanks and turrets in redline with 600m of range, and so more...) ; plus the average price of an ADS was beetween 600.000 and 700.000 and beetween 800.000 and 900.000 for the prototypes. I don't say this imbalance need to continue and Rattati and his hotfixs have done a lot to put it right. In other words, consider yourself lucky to learn to fly today. CCP Rattati wrote: It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. Depend on who is piloting and what you face in term of AV. Like I said above, the most experienced pilots have gone through hell while they were simply training and learning. So it is logical that with easier conditions, they are doing incredible things. Dust like Eve give an enormous reward to the time whether it is for the SP or for the experience and while it may not seems fair, any pilot as much as he is good today had his lot of twisted metal. In fact most of us would have hundreds of millions of ISK if it wasn't for those lovely white angels. Prima Gallicus diplomat. Contact Hubert De LaBatte or me if you have business to do with us.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 775	Posted - 2014.09.15 11:31:00 - [14] - Quote Question about the first chart: why are Swarms 2/3/4 in a vertical line, unlike the second chart? CCP Rattati wrote: You can not hover and engage multiple targets while also being under attack by a swarm launcher but you can move away and then engage in a strafing run. There are no numbers for a strafing run - that is to say, it's not possible to use numbers to determine how a strafing run will play out. There are only numbers for speed and damage: the accuracy and skill of the pilot and the experience and skills of the Swarmer are not constants, but these make up a very large portion of each engagement - does the Swarmer hold their lock-on until the right moment? Does the ADS sit still or do they circle around? What turrets are nearby, can the Swarmer sit near one to get the ADS to aggro it? None of these are absolutes, of course, and none should be the main balancing factor, but they all have a huge impacton each engagement. Might I ask what the intention of no hover/yes strafe is? The ADS is intended to move in under some speed, fire off a few shots before leaving area and returning shortly after: is the intent to curtail the presence of an ADS in a particular area for long periods? I ask sincerely, these are not questions bidding traps, I just want to know your intentions behind the proposed changes. CCP Rattati wrote: It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. Honestly, yes ADSs are a little too effective; ADSs are, conversely, the most expensive piece of equipment. I sincerely hope you are correct that the changes will not be unbalancing, though I am concerned and still feel that the changes are being brought forward one-sidedly. My previous comments about experience piloting may have been over the top, but the reason I ever brought it up was because the game is an entirely different beast when you're piloting: the rendering issues that have plagued us for ages; the collision damage and the fact that we have had inertia for so long, yet tanks can just stop on a dime (I look forward to that change greatly); the difficulty in simply flying and keeping on target - all of those are, quite simply, not balancing points; but they are points which unbalance the situation. Simply learning to fly is tough, and learning to land shots on target while you're under fire is even more difficult and gets only slightly easier when experienced. And in all seriousness rendering is an enormous pain in the behind. I would bet you 10mil ISK that this is the primary reason why ADS pilots are so vocal about these changes: it's difficult shooting at infantry in general, let alone one who is shooting you with a lock-on/tracking weapon, while dancing about yet still invisible 70% of the time. I would happily trade the resilience of my ships if I was able to actually target the enemy as easily as they do me. In short, I hope you're right, but please understand that there is a lot more to the situation than just numbers. Alt of Halla Murr.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1072	Posted - 2014.09.15 11:54:00 - [15] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: i dont understand the relationship between ADS distance and Swarm impact. some of the swarm impacts are beyond the swarm max range. how is that possible? Is there still a nine-second maximum flight time on swarms? Because it seems like some of those lines intercept with hits at 10+ seconds after firing... Dust/Eve transfers
Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 612	Posted - 2014.09.15 12:31:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. My main char is infantry only. My alt is ADS only. I know both sides. And I don't think either is OP or UP. ADSs are as effective as costly. The way I understand these changes is that an invisible (not rendering) Min commando with damage modded swarms can easily destroy an ADS (e.g. a Python in this case) in 3 volleys and if the ADS pilot is not lucky enough to be further away than 90m and/or already moving away from the swarmer, he is toast. If you think that ADSs are OP why do you then contribute to the already rampant alpha damage escalation by buffing swarms instead of tuning down the effectiveness of ADSs first? You did so by increasing the cooldown of ABs, which I support. But why don't we tune down the 10% damage and 50% ROF bonus of ADSs, thus making them less effective, first? As an ADS pilot I always feel sucker-punched everytime I die because in most cases I did not see it coming and this is far from being fun. And on the other side I feel no empathy at all for those idiots who can see and hear an ADS coming from miles away and still decide to move across open ground with no cover and no AV support. Paying customer. // @JebusMcKing

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7091	Posted - 2014.09.15 12:37:00 - [17] - Quote The max swarm range is shown as a horizontal line which swarms cannot cross. The trajectory is shown until impact, to demonstrate that they will hit with infinite range. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2465	Posted - 2014.09.15 12:44:00 - [18] - Quote Any chance you're going to look at the Forge Gun? Right now the big issue with FG vs ADS is them easily escaping by flying up to the ceiling and max ranging the FG. Any possible way you could look into increasing the max range of the FG? IMO the damage, charge time, etc are all fine but as soon as the ADS exceeds that max range by flying up for a few seconds it's completely impervious to the FG. Follow me on Twitch.tv!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7092	Posted - 2014.09.15 12:45:00 - [19] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. My main char is infantry only. My alt is ADS only. I know both sides. And I don't think either is OP or UP. ADSs are as effective as costly. The way I understand these changes is that an invisible (not rendering) Min commando with damage modded swarms can easily destroy an ADS (e.g. a Python in this case) in 3 volleys and if the ADS pilot is not lucky enough to be further away than 90m and/or already moving away from the swarmer, he is toast. If you think that ADSs are OP why do you then contribute to the already rampant alpha damage escalation by buffing swarms instead of tuning down the effectiveness of ADSs first? You did so by increasing the cooldown of ABs, which I support. But why don't we tune down the 10% damage and 50% ROF bonus of ADSs, thus making them less effective, first? As an ADS pilot I always feel sucker-punched everytime I die because in most cases I did not see it coming and this is far from being fun. And on the other side I feel no empathy at all for those idiots who can see and hear an ADS coming from miles away and still decide to move across open ground with no cover and no AV support. Luck or skill. However, you need to read the changes again as you are exaggerating the scenario results. How does this change increase contribute to alpha damage? How does cooldown decrease K/D of an ADS? It reduces the impact of an ADS on a battle by making it retreat more often. ROF bonus is surely something we can reduce, noone has mentioned it since these discussions began 2 weeks ago. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7092	Posted - 2014.09.15 12:46:00 - [20] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Any chance you're going to look at the Forge Gun? Right now the big issue with FG vs ADS is them easily escaping by flying up to the ceiling and max ranging the FG. Any possible way you could look into increasing the max range of the FG? IMO the damage, charge time, etc are all fine but as soon as the ADS exceeds that max range by flying up for a few seconds it's completely impervious to the FG. I honestly don't think that's unfair, it must have some way of surviving. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2465	Posted - 2014.09.15 12:49:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Any chance you're going to look at the Forge Gun? Right now the big issue with FG vs ADS is them easily escaping by flying up to the ceiling and max ranging the FG. Any possible way you could look into increasing the max range of the FG? IMO the damage, charge time, etc are all fine but as soon as the ADS exceeds that max range by flying up for a few seconds it's completely impervious to the FG. I honestly don't think that's unfair, it must have some way of surviving. Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG? It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms. And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like. Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 776	Posted - 2014.09.15 13:35:00 - [22] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG? It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms. And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like. Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot. Have you tried to hit a Forge Gunner while they slam you about? An ADS has a hard time against a Forge Gunner, but the balance is actually pretty damn good: you need to land several hits (so do we, because of Sentinel resistance to blast damage); we need to continue moving to throw off your aim which does exactly the same to us; you have the advantage of cover and being much harder to identify (in general: rendering before you're within 100m is hard, and the charge only helps identify your general area) while we have the advantage of when we close to engagement range or retreat (though you still have the option of HAVs and LAVs.) I think ADS/FG balance is pretty spot on. Alt of Halla Murr.
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2466	Posted - 2014.09.15 13:45:00 - [23] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG? It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms. And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like. Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot. Have you tried to hit a Forge Gunner while they slam you about? An ADS has a hard time against a Forge Gunner, but the balance is actually pretty damn good: you need to land several hits (so do we, because of Sentinel resistance to blast damage); we need to continue moving to throw off your aim which does exactly the same to us; you have the advantage of cover and being much harder to identify (in general: rendering before you're within 100m is hard, and the charge only helps identify your general area) while we have the advantage of when we close to engagement range or retreat (though you still have the option of HAVs and LAVs.) I think ADS/FG balance is pretty spot on. You're not supposed to directly engage a Forge Gunner with your ADS you silly. Do you think the ADS is supposed to be the be-all-end-all against every infantry type? Any competent scout or assault suit or even HMG heavy can easily take out a Forge Gunner, even one camped on a roof, as long as he plays it smart and gets the jump on him. Increasing the max range of the FG wouldn't break the balance in any extreme way like reducing charge time or increasing damage. A lot of FG users I see are missing shots against an ADS at 50-100m anyway. Give the experienced Forgers an actual feasible way to land the killshot. It's so incredibly frustrating to be outplayed by an ADS because he can just activate his AB and go "Haha your shots are no use at this altitude!". It's really stupid that I can clearly identify an ADS that looks like he is in shooting range only for my reticule to stay white and no targeting information to appear because they're too far away. 300 or 400m or whatever it is is so laughably low when you're considering ground-to-air engagements. The Swarms are a lock-on shoot-and-forget weapon that can be fit on any suit. The FG actually requires you to stand still and charge all while timing and instinctively calculating projectile travel time combined with an ADSs flight path to even have a chance at landing a shot. I land maybe about 5-10% of my shots at 200+ meters when an ADS is actively evading, if that. Make that 5-10% chance actually count instead of having the projectile simply disappear in mid-air. Follow me on Twitch.tv!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7100	Posted - 2014.09.15 13:55:00 - [24] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Question about the first chart: why are Swarms 2/3/4 in a vertical line, unlike the second chart? Means they will never ever hit the ADS "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4882	Posted - 2014.09.15 14:09:00 - [25] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Increasing the max range of the FG wouldn't break the balance in any extreme way ... Questions: 1) There was a time when a rooftop swarmer could deny access to any vehicle over massive sections of battlefield. This capability was deemed unfair, and swarm range was drastically reduced. How might we relate this scenario to an increase in Forge Gun range? 2) Snipers have expressed serious concerns about the Sniper Rifle's upcoming range reduction. Might an increase in Forge Gun range upset balance between Sniper and Forge Sniper? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2617	Posted - 2014.09.15 14:09:00 - [26] - Quote Well, Rattati, I'll try to give you a decent review, or hopefully some useful insight. I'll confess I'm not too good at reading charts, but I think I get the gist of it. But before that, I'm going to put in a paragraph concerning why you seem so stressed with the V/AV community, so if you don't want to hear it, skip the next paragraph. Here, to calm you down. Anyway, the reason you're seem so screwy with this is probably (may not be right) the fact that these two communities are comparable to the Capuletes and the Montagues of Romeo and Juliet (Not sure how to spell those family names right). We're not going to get along for damn near anything. My advice is to take the proposals of the tin foil wearers from both sides, cut it in half, and you should be getting a little closer to a decent balance, and then just let him be a tard. BACK ON TOPIC! On the swarm speed charts. If I'm reading them right, it looks good to me, but there is a few issues, which is lack of data or responses in other areas. I'm fairly certain that most ADS pilots are ticked about the swarm buff because they didn't read about the homing nerf. You may want to offer a little more data in that area, because to be honest, I can't offer any reasonable feedback without a little more data in that area, also the ability to try this out myself, but that's not important right now, is it? Another important bit I read was that you want ADS to be a hit and run vehicle, but the fact that there is no one saying anything about the rendering issue we face. If we're supposed to be a hit and run role, then we need to be able to hit and run effectively. Currently, as it stands, I have to hover in an area I know a swarmer is in order to have him render, in that time he has enough time to shoot a volley of swarms at me. But anyway TL:DR version, the swarms acceleration buff seems reasonable enough to me, but I'd like a little more data in the other areas you've discussed before I can offer anything solid. The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7100	Posted - 2014.09.15 14:18:00 - [27] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Well, Rattati, I'll try to give you a decent review, or hopefully some useful insight. I'll confess I'm not too good at reading charts, but I think I get the gist of it. But before that, I'm going to put in a paragraph concerning why you seem so stressed with the V/AV community, so if you don't want to hear it, skip the next paragraph. Here, to calm you down. Anyway, the reason you're seem so screwy with this is probably (may not be right) the fact that these two communities are comparable to the Capuletes and the Montagues of Romeo and Juliet (Not sure how to spell those family names right). We're not going to get along for damn near anything. My advice is to take the proposals of the tin foil wearers from both sides, cut it in half, and you should be getting a little closer to a decent balance, and then just let him be a tard. BACK ON TOPIC! On the swarm speed charts. If I'm reading them right, it looks good to me, but there is a few issues, which is lack of data or responses in other areas. I'm fairly certain that most ADS pilots are ticked about the swarm buff because they didn't read about the homing nerf. You may want to offer a little more data in that area, because to be honest, I can't offer any reasonable feedback without a little more data in that area, also the ability to try this out myself, but that's not important right now, is it? Another important bit I read was that you want ADS to be a hit and run vehicle, but the fact that there is no one saying anything about the rendering issue we face. If we're supposed to be a hit and run role, then we need to be able to hit and run effectively. Currently, as it stands, I have to hover in an area I know a swarmer is in order to have him render, in that time he has enough time to shoot a volley of swarms at me. But anyway TL:DR version, the swarms acceleration buff seems reasonable enough to me, but I'd like a little more data in the other areas you've discussed before I can offer anything solid. lol at that link, anywho, maybe you shouldn't hover in front of the weapon designated to kill you, maybe team work? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2466	Posted - 2014.09.15 14:18:00 - [28] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Increasing the max range of the FG wouldn't break the balance in any extreme way ... Questions: 1) There was a time when a rooftop swarmer could deny access to any vehicle over massive sections of battlefield. This capability was deemed unfair, and swarm range was drastically reduced. How might we relate this scenario to an increase in Forge Gun range? 2) Snipers have expressed serious concerns about the Sniper Rifle's upcoming range reduction. Might an increase in Forge Gun range upset balance between Sniper and Forge Sniper? 1) Again, the Swarm is a lock-on fire n forget weapon that requires absolutely no actual skill to use because it's literally just "look at target, lock on, fire". The FG requires manual aiming as well as having a straight-shooting projectile with a travel time that is easily avoided by most pilots at ranges exceeding 200-300m.. I must stress the point of how difficult it is to actually land a shot on something like an ADS at this range. It's hard, but definitely possible, and it should be possible but currently is not because most projectiles will disappear before reaching the target. 2) Forge guns have no zoom. Yes Forge sniping works well in a city with visible targets. The days of OP rooftop forge camping are over not because the Forge was slightly nerfed but because the Active Scanner was severely nerfed. The previously OP scanner was what gave a constant feed of salient red dots to fire at for a Forge Gunner. Back when I was forging in PCs covering city points, there wouldn't be a moment in the game where I wasn't yelling at my Logis, "I need scans! Where are my scans!?" The increased range wouldn't affect FG vs infantry much as I rarely have a case where infantry is out of range. Even if they are closing the gap is much much easier compared to an ADS that can dip out in a matter of seconds. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
medomai grey WarRavens Capital Punishment. 981	Posted - 2014.09.15 14:28:00 - [29] - Quote These changes look fine. Maintain distance and be more twitchy to survive as a dropship pilot. I'm just disappointed that the interactions between swarms and dropships will remain the same, out run the swarm missiles or get hit. I was excited when I read "this will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain." However, after looking over the proposed changes and Rattati's posts, this was clearly not the case. Swarms track dropships differently than they do land vehicles. What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2617	Posted - 2014.09.15 14:32:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: Well, Rattati, I'll try to give you a decent review, or hopefully some useful insight. I'll confess I'm not too good at reading charts, but I think I get the gist of it. But before that, I'm going to put in a paragraph concerning why you seem so stressed with the V/AV community, so if you don't want to hear it, skip the next paragraph. Here, to calm you down. Anyway, the reason you're seem so screwy with this is probably (may not be right) the fact that these two communities are comparable to the Capuletes and the Montagues of Romeo and Juliet (Not sure how to spell those family names right). We're not going to get along for damn near anything. My advice is to take the proposals of the tin foil wearers from both sides, cut it in half, and you should be getting a little closer to a decent balance, and then just let him be a tard. BACK ON TOPIC! On the swarm speed charts. If I'm reading them right, it looks good to me, but there is a few issues, which is lack of data or responses in other areas. I'm fairly certain that most ADS pilots are ticked about the swarm buff because they didn't read about the homing nerf. You may want to offer a little more data in that area, because to be honest, I can't offer any reasonable feedback without a little more data in that area, also the ability to try this out myself, but that's not important right now, is it? Another important bit I read was that you want ADS to be a hit and run vehicle, but the fact that there is no one saying anything about the rendering issue we face. If we're supposed to be a hit and run role, then we need to be able to hit and run effectively. Currently, as it stands, I have to hover in an area I know a swarmer is in order to have him render, in that time he has enough time to shoot a volley of swarms at me. But anyway TL:DR version, the swarms acceleration buff seems reasonable enough to me, but I'd like a little more data in the other areas you've discussed before I can offer anything solid. lol at that link, anywho, maybe you shouldn't hover in front of the weapon designated to kill you, maybe team work? I normally don't, actually. I follow the same rule ADS should follow when engaging forges, do not ever stand still. It works wonders and I usually take down most swarms by myself, because most fits (except the minmando) I can handle myself IF I know where they are. I read somewhere that the rendering was being looked into, but TBH, you'd probably deal with a few less douches if you showed some more data involving at the very least the homing nerf. Just trying to save you a bad day. The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.

Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 612	Posted - 2014.09.15 14:36:00 - [31] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Luck or skill. However, you need to read the changes again as you are exaggerating the scenario results. How does this change increase contribute to alpha damage? How does cooldown decrease K/D of an ADS? It reduces the impact of an ADS on a battle by making it retreat more often. ROF bonus is surely something we can reduce, noone has mentioned it since these discussions began 2 weeks ago. Maybe I am exaggerating, but it is totally possible in rare situations. Add in a second swarmer or forgegunner and you are almost guaranteed to destroy the ADS if you know what you are doing. I consider it alpha damage because the fight is over within a couple of seconds with either the ADS escaping or getting destroyed. There is no real prolonged combat action where your piloting skill or the AV skill decides the outcome of the fight. You either are lucky to have the time to run or you are toast. And making one thing better at destroying the other directly contributes to that. It does not make the fights more interesting than they are right now. It just makes ADSs get killed more and getting less kills. Cooldown does not decrease K/D of an ADS, like you said, but it makes it less effective. So you want ADSs to get killed more often rather than making them less effective, is that what it comes down to? I would not have a problem with that if we did not have the issues with rendering we have right now. ROF bonus has not been mentioned? Are you being sarcastic now? Because I did not pay attention to the whole discussion in detail since I'm only a part time pilot. If it really has not, then nevermind, this community is lost. Who would've thougth that dealing 4000 damage over 4.5 seconds from a small missile launcher might be slightly too much. I won't lie, I can solo a tank with my ADS and I never understood how this should be possible. The whole problem from my perspective is the rendering range. Since we can't do anything about it at this point in time why can't we make engagements take longer instead? We could reduce the killing effectiveness of ADS and at the same time make it harder for them to get destroyed. Reduce their damage output but also make it take a while for them to get shot down. This way ADS would be less like flying attack vehicles and more effective at actually supporting the team by ensuring that the passengers reach their destination safely or serving more as supression support rather then farming infantry. AV guys would get a ton of WP and secure points from prolonged ADS fire, and ADS pilots would not get sucker-punched all the time. Paying customer. // @JebusMcKing
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1813	Posted - 2014.09.15 14:36:00 - [32] - Quote Lets not get off tack here by talking about forge guns. The issue at hand is swarms vs ADS and that is where we should try to keep the conversation. If you want to take up the issue of forge guns vs ADS why not make a new thread? As far as the graphs it looks like Rattati is trying to show that in its current state there was no way a swarm launcher could get more than two vollies off at a ADS (thus the 2nd through 4th shots being in a vertical line at 4.5 seconds). The issue causing this was probably a combination of DS speed and slow swarm velocity. Any shots fired after 4.5 seconds (assuming the pilot took evasive action) would have no chance of hitting. The proposed changes to swarm velocites will allow actual impacts of swarms on retreating ADS in delta (unlike in charle) up until the 400m line which is the hard range line for swarms. The impacts shown after that are merely for theory crafting as opposed to hits that will actually happen. The difference between the two is that while in charlie that ADS can sit and take the first two swarm volleys and still be able to escape, pilots in delta will be forced to move either constantly or as soon as the first volley hits in order to avoid volleys 3-4 with the first two volleys hitting being a given. Since it looks like pilots who are aware and moving will still only be taking two volleys of swarms the total damage dealt to most skilled ADS pilots will be unchanged, any pilots who choose to linger a bit after the first volley though will get hit by swarm volley 3, which, depending on their fit, may cost them their ship. This doesn't really look like it is going to be a huge change for ADS pilots except for the fact that they will have to keep moving, swarms will more easily be able to deny them access to the battlefield but killing them will still be hard. These look like they will be some solid changes from a numbers point of view. I can't wait to see how they pan out. Now with more evil.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2064	Posted - 2014.09.15 15:23:00 - [33] - Quote We can run numbers all day but we'll never know how things will turn out or what "emerges" until it's been tested hands-on. (One of the reasons why we need a test-server) Just get Delta deployed and we'll see how it goes.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 2257	Posted - 2014.09.15 16:10:00 - [34] - Quote I'd like to see vehicle prices balanced around ISK efficiency. Total ISK value of all assets (suits and vehicles) destroyed by ADS divided by total number of ADS destroyed. The current changes will alter ADS survivability, so this data should be evaluated a month-or-so after Delta. Best PvE idea ever!
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 777	Posted - 2014.09.15 16:23:00 - [35] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Luck or skill. However, you need to read the changes again as you are exaggerating the scenario results. How does this change increase contribute to alpha damage? How does cooldown decrease K/D of an ADS? It reduces the impact of an ADS on a battle by making it retreat more often. ROF bonus is surely something we can reduce, noone has mentioned it since these discussions began 2 weeks ago. For the second chart, it looks like the ADS will be hit with two Swarms the vast majority of the time and the third one is dependant on ADS reaction time and direction of travel: if the ADS at 80m runs directly away from the Swarmer, the third shot misses; if they run at an an acute angle (ie, past the Swarmer) then they will get hit by those numbers. Is that correct? Not asking if that is good/bad, just making sure I understand the chart. ROF bonus changes could be interesting, though I think they would impact the Incubus far more heavily, especially with upcoming small Railgun changes. @Funkmaster: at ranges over 100m it is extremely difficult for a dropship to land hits on any infantry, and Sentinels are substantially tougher than most due to the 25% (at L5) resistance to blast damage. When the dropship is within 100m, you are still small, but we are much larger. My alt is a dedicated heavy: I use FGs a lot and I can hit targets within 100m pretty easily - outside of that it is difficult, but then, you shouldn't be able to snipe all vehicles within 400m perfectly otherwise there is no point to vehicles. Anyway, this is about Swarms. CCP Rattati wrote: maybe you shouldn't hover in front of the weapon designated to kill you, maybe team work? Define hover. Because you can circle around a Swarmer, bob and weave and they will always lock you, but your aim is thrown off by those motions and for naught. Rarely do I ever hover, and rarely do I ever outrun the second volley. Alt of Halla Murr.
CommanderBolt TerranProtossZerg 1593	Posted - 2014.09.15 16:54:00 - [36] - Quote Trust me, as a forge gun user, we do not need any more range at all. (Don't get me wrong more range would be sweet but its not needed) If the DS wants to attack, he has to be in FG range. That's fine as it is. -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2014.09.15 17:35:00 - [37] - Quote Question Regarding Swarms physical limits: When does a swarm missile run out of fuel? As shown in the chart, it has a 400m maximum range from launch, but does it also have a flight time? If a ship stays within 400 meters of the launched location, while moving at high speed, will the swarm chase indefinitely? Or is it possible for a dropship to "scrub" the missile by making it run out of fuel by taking sharp turns and wasting it's flight time? Also, thank you for the work you are putting into this Rattati, we realize this is no easy task.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 742	Posted - 2014.09.15 17:46:00 - [38] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Define hover. Because you can circle around a Swarmer, bob and weave and they will always lock you, but your aim is thrown off by those motions and for naught. Rarely do I ever hover, and rarely do I ever outrun the second volley. Crooked analogy: When being an assault, I try not to be in range of a Burst HMG heavy for too long at a time. Even if my Assault Rifle has the same range as he does. @Chart: Consider that between the second and eventual third SL hit there's a time delay of 5 seconds. A Python can recover up to 1700 hp from a shield booster in that time - before hardeners. Even an incubus pilot should have recovered some ehp in that time. @Rattati: Do you know whether NDS have the same top speed as ADS? I'm not really concerned because I think an NDS will just tank the first three shots and then get out of lock-on range before the SL's reload is finished.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1745	Posted - 2014.09.15 18:20:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This discussion is immediately looking like it is going to get derailed by bickering. Please consider this the final warning to stay on the topic and contribute meaningful opinions to the matter at hand. The only comment previous to this was mine, and how was it bickering or off-topic? ADS can no longer hover, so they have to keep moving, but gunners have a hard time hitting targets while the ADS moves, so I ask for stabilization. Shoot Scout with yes.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2066	Posted - 2014.09.15 18:54:00 - [40] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Question Regarding Swarms physical limits: When does a swarm missile run out of fuel? As shown in the chart, it has a 400m maximum range from launch, but does it also have a flight time? If a ship stays within 400 meters of the launched location, while moving at high speed, will the swarm chase indefinitely? Or is it possible for a dropship to "scrub" the missile by making it run out of fuel by taking sharp turns and wasting it's flight time? Also, thank you for the work you are putting into this Rattati, we realize this is no easy task. It's a 400m traveled, not distance from launcher. So if, for some reason, it flew in a circle with a circumference of 400m, it would explode where it was fired. We'll have to see if it's possible for an ADS to dodge swarms since swarms are getting an agility nerf. My dream is that I can just tightly orbit swarmers with my AB on while their missiles just circle around me (similar to what I do with forgers).

Denchlad 7 Dead Man's Game 551	Posted - 2014.09.15 19:00:00 - [41] - Quote As a pilot, these changes seem good. Glad to see that you're lowering the cost of the ADS and associated modules. With that I'll say swarms and ADS are balanced, providing we see some data regarding the cost changes. Forge and ADS is balanced. Dont touch it. The only person in Dust stupid enough to Proto every single god-damn weapon. 19/19.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1746	Posted - 2014.09.15 20:12:00 - [42] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Question Regarding Swarms physical limits: When does a swarm missile run out of fuel? As shown in the chart, it has a 400m maximum range from launch, but does it also have a flight time? If a ship stays within 400 meters of the launched location, while moving at high speed, will the swarm chase indefinitely? Or is it possible for a dropship to "scrub" the missile by making it run out of fuel by taking sharp turns and wasting it's flight time? Also, thank you for the work you are putting into this Rattati, we realize this is no easy task. It's a 400m traveled, not distance from launcher. So if, for some reason, it flew in a circle with a circumference of 400m, it would explode where it was fired. We'll have to see if it's possible for an ADS to dodge swarms since swarms are getting an agility nerf. My dream is that I can just tightly orbit swarmers with my AB on while their missiles just circle around me (similar to what I do with forgers). If this is the case, I will be fine with the way things will be. Although gunner stabilization is still a request I have. Shoot Scout with yes.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1748	Posted - 2014.09.15 20:13:00 - [43] - Quote To Rattati: you mention a PG/CPU decrease to small turrets. How much of a decrease? Shoot Scout with yes.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 194	Posted - 2014.09.15 21:29:00 - [44] - Quote Thanks for putting in the work Rattati. I have a couple questions regarding the chart. 1) why is the first chart have the drop ship hovering at 60m and the second one hovering at 80m? I cannot tell because the distance is measured in 200m intervals, but it looks like if the dropship is hovering at 60 in the second chart for comaparisons sake then wouldn't 3 swams hit the dropship with an afterburner? 2) I would really apreciate clarification on whether swarm explode after traveling 400m? Or are swarms programed to explode after 9 seconds of travel and 400m is how far the can fly in that period of time? If the later is true then i worry that improving the speed will also increase the distance a missile can travel before self detonating. Regarding the OPness of Dropships. Though i disagree that ADS are overpowered I agree with others on this thread that simply making them easier to kill is the wrong way to go about it. It doesn't help infantry who are not specced into AV and it doesn't chage the dynamics on the ground. ROF bonus is also the wrong way to go about it. Rail turrets are already going to have the ROf nerfed, and it wont affect any missile incubus. It also doesn't fall inline with your vision of fast attack ships especially in terms of strafing. Instead i would take a look at the main infantry destroyer the missile turrets (especialy the XT-1s). Increase the clip size (1 per level?) but reduce damage and splash so it doesn't one shot kill most suits. Firing more rounds but requiring more a lot more accuracy. I've followed all of the hotfix conversations and i've noticed that when something is considered to be killing an extrodinary amount of clones or has an unfair advantage you've tweaked the weapon or module not the entire suit. (the exception being heavies with light weapons). I say look at the anti infantry effectiveness of dropships which comes from its weapons, and not solely the survivability of dropships vs 1 swarm launcher. Thats what got the pilots so very much against against the swarm buff, because our dropships are already extremely fragile. I'm sorry if you consider this bickering or ranting but i love flying, i hate losing any ship (i'll recall my gorgons and my vipers rather than jump on a ledge and let them fall and die) and i lose a fair share to swarms already. Increasing the Afterburner cooldown is a good start towards giving ground troops some breathing space, tweaking the small missile damage should give infantry more time to get to cover, and give swarmers a better oppurtunity to hit dropships which must get closer and hover longer (as in your first chart) as well as better survivabilty vs dropships. It would help all infantry vs dropships. Give all the troops a reasonable chance for survival vs the ADS, and i think this would go along way towards relieving the enimity between all troops and all pilots. 07. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
abdullah muzaffar G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 25	Posted - 2014.09.15 22:11:00 - [45] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot. ^This Cant take down an ads when it can destroy your nanos, come back, tank 2 shots and remove all armor in a single hit, while hovering at 5 m, knowing fully well that i wont be able to kill them bcz im already dead while charging the 3rd Imo, the bonuses are waay too op right now, an aoe weapon should not have so much damage or rof, else i want my md buffed
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 121	Posted - 2014.09.15 22:17:00 - [46] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Please continue taking "drive-bys" out of context and we are done here. It just means keep, moving. It even says "3m/s" minimum speed. You can hover and kill non AV infantry You can hover and kill non AV HAV's You can not hover and engage multiple targets while also being under attack by a swarm launcher but you can move away and then engage in a strafing run. It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. oh my god, rattati is an ads hater, GG ads, you cost me loads of isk and you were the most free, fun thing in the game. R.I.P Swarm/RR Cal mando here i come! JK LOL, amarr 4 lyfe apart from the cal heavy, cal assault, cal logi, cal scout, min scout, min logi, min assault, min heavy, gal sentinel, gal assault, gal logi and gal scout that i have..... suddenly, the bleak future looks bright, so what if they nerf one thing, i'll just get everything to level 3! NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1749	Posted - 2014.09.15 22:57:00 - [47] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Please continue taking "drive-bys" out of context and we are done here. It just means keep, moving. It even says "3m/s" minimum speed. You can hover and kill non AV infantry You can hover and kill non AV HAV's You can not hover and engage multiple targets while also being under attack by a swarm launcher but you can move away and then engage in a strafing run. It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. Then give my gunners aim stabilization so they can do strafing runs. We hover because they can't hit anything smaller than a tank unless we hold still or they get plain lucky. Shoot Scout with yes.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7131	Posted - 2014.09.15 23:05:00 - [48] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This discussion is immediately looking like it is going to get derailed by bickering. Please consider this the final warning to stay on the topic and contribute meaningful opinions to the matter at hand. The only comment previous to this was mine, and how was it bickering or off-topic? ADS can no longer hover, so they have to keep moving, but gunners have a hard time hitting targets while the ADS moves, so I ask for stabilization. It seems the bickering and ranting has been moderated. This was not meant for you, sorry it looks that way. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1750	Posted - 2014.09.15 23:16:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This discussion is immediately looking like it is going to get derailed by bickering. Please consider this the final warning to stay on the topic and contribute meaningful opinions to the matter at hand. The only comment previous to this was mine, and how was it bickering or off-topic? ADS can no longer hover, so they have to keep moving, but gunners have a hard time hitting targets while the ADS moves, so I ask for stabilization. It seems the bickering and ranting has been moderated. This was not meant for you, sorry it looks that way. Oh whew! Feel better now. Thanks for the clarification. :) Shoot Scout with yes.
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 927	Posted - 2014.09.15 23:35:00 - [50] - Quote About rendering problems: we have noticed that many of the pilots and gunners sit in a dropship with sniper rifles. Once verified, we found that the distance of drawing objects (infantry on far ground) is significantly improved. I hope that these observations may help in this situation. Please support fair play!

Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 268	Posted - 2014.09.15 23:45:00 - [51] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Please continue taking "drive-bys" out of context and we are done here. It just means keep, moving. It even says "3m/s" minimum speed. You can hover and kill non AV infantry You can hover and kill non AV HAV's You can not hover and engage multiple targets while also being under attack by a swarm launcher but you can move away and then engage in a strafing run. It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. I like this straight-forward, no-nonsense Rattati. Just putting people in their place. Anyhow... Those are some very good looking graphs. +1
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1072	Posted - 2014.09.15 23:50:00 - [52] - Quote John Psi wrote: About rendering problems: we have noticed that many of the pilots and gunners sit in a dropship with sniper rifles. Once verified, we found that the distance of drawing objects (infantry on far ground) is significantly improved. I hope that these observations may help in this situation. Someone needs to post video of *this*. Dust/Eve transfers

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7140	Posted - 2014.09.15 23:53:00 - [53] - Quote John Psi wrote: About rendering problems: we have noticed that many of the pilots and gunners sit in a dropship with sniper rifles. Once verified, we found that the distance of drawing objects (infantry on far ground) is significantly improved. I hope that these observations may help in this situation. This was sent with the utmost speed to the Technical Director "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 463	Posted - 2014.09.16 00:13:00 - [54] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Thanks for putting in the work Rattati. I have a couple questions regarding the chart. 1) why is the first chart have the drop ship hovering at 60m and the second one hovering at 80m? I cannot tell because the distance is measured in 200m intervals, but it looks like if the dropship is hovering at 60 in the second chart for comaparisons sake then wouldn't 3 swams hit the dropship with an afterburner? 2) I would really apreciate clarification on whether swarm explode after traveling 400m? Or are swarms programed to explode after 9 seconds of travel and 400m is how far the can fly in that period of time? If the later is true then i worry that improving the speed will also increase the distance a missile can travel before self detonating. Regarding the OPness of Dropships. Though i disagree that ADS are overpowered I agree with others on this thread that simply making them easier to kill is the wrong way to go about it. It doesn't help infantry who are not specced into AV and it doesn't chage the dynamics on the ground. ROF bonus is also the wrong way to go about it. Rail turrets are already going to have the ROf nerfed, and it wont affect any missile incubus. It also doesn't fall inline with your vision of fast attack ships especially in terms of strafing. Instead i would take a look at the main infantry destroyer the missile turrets (especialy the XT-1s). Increase the clip size (1 per level?) but reduce damage and splash so it doesn't one shot kill most suits. Firing more rounds but requiring more a lot more accuracy. I've followed all of the hotfix conversations and i've noticed that when something is considered to be killing an extrodinary amount of clones or has an unfair advantage you've tweaked the weapon or module not the entire suit. (the exception being heavies with light weapons). I say look at the anti infantry effectiveness of dropships which comes from its weapons, and not solely the survivability of dropships vs 1 swarm launcher. Thats what got the pilots so very much against against the swarm buff, because our dropships are already extremely fragile. I'm sorry if you consider this bickering or ranting but i love flying, i hate losing any ship (i'll recall my gorgons and my vipers rather than jump on a ledge and let them fall and die) and i lose a fair share to swarms already. Increasing the Afterburner cooldown is a good start towards giving ground troops some breathing space, tweaking the small missile damage should give infantry more time to get to cover, and give swarmers a better oppurtunity to hit dropships which must get closer and hover longer (as in your first chart) as well as better survivabilty vs dropships. It would help all infantry vs dropships. Give all the troops a reasonable chance for survival vs the ADS, and i think this would go along way towards relieving the enimity between all troops and all pilots. 07. ^^^ This ^^^ I don't think any pilot has ever said "dropships are OP" not even once... We all say they're squishy as ****. But small missiles we know are too strong... Why do you think we use them on the Incubus, it's got no bonus RoF, it just farms infantry better than a blaster and downs ground vehicles better than a small rail (even more so after Delta nerfs RoF on all rails, but does nothing to bonus stacking.) The only downside is having to lead your target, which is only an issue vs other dropships that can turn out the way of it after it's been shot.
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 927	Posted - 2014.09.16 00:26:00 - [55] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Someone needs to post video of *this*. ...visible to the naked eye, that if you sat in ship with a SR texture within 100m is not loaded gradually, but immediately. For the purity of the experiment (comparison), you must do it in two different rounds, but at the same map. For example, on this map infantry on the central table is seen from the height of hightowers (if SR present in u fit). graf settings: LOW effects: LOW Please support fair play!
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1752	Posted - 2014.09.16 01:52:00 - [56] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Thanks for putting in the work Rattati. I have a couple questions regarding the chart. 1) why is the first chart have the drop ship hovering at 60m and the second one hovering at 80m? I cannot tell because the distance is measured in 200m intervals, but it looks like if the dropship is hovering at 60 in the second chart for comaparisons sake then wouldn't 3 swams hit the dropship with an afterburner? 2) I would really apreciate clarification on whether swarm explode after traveling 400m? Or are swarms programed to explode after 9 seconds of travel and 400m is how far the can fly in that period of time? If the later is true then i worry that improving the speed will also increase the distance a missile can travel before self detonating. Regarding the OPness of Dropships. Though i disagree that ADS are overpowered I agree with others on this thread that simply making them easier to kill is the wrong way to go about it. It doesn't help infantry who are not specced into AV and it doesn't chage the dynamics on the ground. ROF bonus is also the wrong way to go about it. Rail turrets are already going to have the ROf nerfed, and it wont affect any missile incubus. It also doesn't fall inline with your vision of fast attack ships especially in terms of strafing. Instead i would take a look at the main infantry destroyer the missile turrets (especialy the XT-1s). Increase the clip size (1 per level?) but reduce damage and splash so it doesn't one shot kill most suits. Firing more rounds but requiring more a lot more accuracy. I've followed all of the hotfix conversations and i've noticed that when something is considered to be killing an extrodinary amount of clones or has an unfair advantage you've tweaked the weapon or module not the entire suit. (the exception being heavies with light weapons). I say look at the anti infantry effectiveness of dropships which comes from its weapons, and not solely the survivability of dropships vs 1 swarm launcher. Thats what got the pilots so very much against against the swarm buff, because our dropships are already extremely fragile. I'm sorry if you consider this bickering or ranting but i love flying, i hate losing any ship (i'll recall my gorgons and my vipers rather than jump on a ledge and let them fall and die) and i lose a fair share to swarms already. Increasing the Afterburner cooldown is a good start towards giving ground troops some breathing space, tweaking the small missile damage should give infantry more time to get to cover, and give swarmers a better oppurtunity to hit dropships which must get closer and hover longer (as in your first chart) as well as better survivabilty vs dropships. It would help all infantry vs dropships. Give all the troops a reasonable chance for survival vs the ADS, and i think this would go along way towards relieving the enimity between all troops and all pilots. 07. ^^^ This ^^^ I don't think any pilot has ever said "dropships are OP" not even once... We all say they're squishy as ****. But small missiles we know are too strong... Why do you think we use them on the Incubus, it's got no bonus RoF, it just farms infantry better than a blaster and downs ground vehicles better than a small rail (even more so after Delta nerfs RoF on all rails, but does nothing to bonus stacking.) The only downside is having to lead your target, which is only an issue vs other dropships that can turn out the way of it after it's been shot. The problem rails has was their damage profile being wonky at 77%/63%. The ROF Nerf is coupled woth the profile being updated, so DPS will remain the same. Shoot Scout with yes.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2788	Posted - 2014.09.16 06:37:00 - [57] - Quote As this is a discussion of ADS vs. Swarms I move we drop the forge gun arguments. My reasoning being in my experience the survival rate of ADS versus a forge gun is 50/50 modified by the skill of the gunner versus the skill of the pilot. Rattati would know better than me given he has kill stats. Hell he could probably tell me my efficiency versus vehicles individually. But the discussion is the swarm changes. Let's keep it there.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4112	Posted - 2014.09.16 07:34:00 - [58] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Thanks for putting in the work Rattati. I have a couple questions regarding the chart. 1) why is the first chart have the drop ship hovering at 60m and the second one hovering at 80m? I cannot tell because the distance is measured in 200m intervals, but it looks like if the dropship is hovering at 60 in the second chart for comaparisons sake then wouldn't 3 swams hit the dropship with an afterburner? 2) I would really apreciate clarification on whether swarm explode after traveling 400m? Or are swarms programed to explode after 9 seconds of travel and 400m is how far the can fly in that period of time? If the later is true then i worry that improving the speed will also increase the distance a missile can travel before self detonating. Regarding the OPness of Dropships. Though i disagree that ADS are overpowered I agree with others on this thread that simply making them easier to kill is the wrong way to go about it. It doesn't help infantry who are not specced into AV and it doesn't chage the dynamics on the ground. ROF bonus is also the wrong way to go about it. Rail turrets are already going to have the ROf nerfed, and it wont affect any missile incubus. It also doesn't fall inline with your vision of fast attack ships especially in terms of strafing. Instead i would take a look at the main infantry destroyer the missile turrets (especialy the XT-1s). Increase the clip size (1 per level?) but reduce damage and splash so it doesn't one shot kill most suits. Firing more rounds but requiring more a lot more accuracy. I've followed all of the hotfix conversations and i've noticed that when something is considered to be killing an extrodinary amount of clones or has an unfair advantage you've tweaked the weapon or module not the entire suit. (the exception being heavies with light weapons). I say look at the anti infantry effectiveness of dropships which comes from its weapons, and not solely the survivability of dropships vs 1 swarm launcher. Thats what got the pilots so very much against against the swarm buff, because our dropships are already extremely fragile. I'm sorry if you consider this bickering or ranting but i love flying, i hate losing any ship (i'll recall my gorgons and my vipers rather than jump on a ledge and let them fall and die) and i lose a fair share to swarms already. Increasing the Afterburner cooldown is a good start towards giving ground troops some breathing space, tweaking the small missile damage should give infantry more time to get to cover, and give swarmers a better oppurtunity to hit dropships which must get closer and hover longer (as in your first chart) as well as better survivabilty vs dropships. It would help all infantry vs dropships. Give all the troops a reasonable chance for survival vs the ADS, and i think this would go along way towards relieving the enimity between all troops and all pilots. 07. ^^^ This ^^^ I don't think any pilot has ever said "dropships are OP" not even once... We all say they're squishy as ****. But small missiles we know are too strong... Why do you think we use them on the Incubus, it's got no bonus RoF, it just farms infantry better than a blaster and downs ground vehicles better than a small rail (even more so after Delta nerfs RoF on all rails, but does nothing to bonus stacking.) The only downside is having to lead your target, which is only an issue vs other dropships that can turn out the way of it after it's been shot. The problem rails has was their damage profile being wonky at 77%/63%. The ROF Nerf is coupled woth the profile being updated, so DPS will remain the same. Direct hit damage is aswell getting nerfed by 30% so your argument is nonesense They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
Leeroy Gannarsein Legio DXIV 707	Posted - 2014.09.16 10:42:00 - [59] - Quote John Psi wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: Someone needs to post video of *this. ...visible to the naked eye, that if you sat in ship with a SR texture within 100m is not loaded gradually, but immediately. For the purity of the experiment (comparison), you must do it in two different rounds, but at the same map. For example, on this map infantry on the central table is seen from the height of hightowers (if SR present in u fit). graf settings: LOW effects: LOW I'd accept that only rendering isn't consistent match to match even with the same weaponry. Even back in 1.6, some matches my rendering would be decent. I'd spend those matches sniping with a particle cannon. Some matches it'd be terrible, and I'd recall the particle cannon for an ion cannon. I'm in agreement with Jebus, in that ADS piloting isn't particularly interesting. It's a pretty common refrain amongst old HAV pilots, too, that driving the vehicles just isn't fun anymore (though arguably ADS piloting has never been 'interesting' by those standards). It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart...* CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1061	Posted - 2014.09.16 13:53:00 - [60] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. My main char is infantry only. My alt is ADS only. I know both sides. And I don't think either is OP or UP. ADSs are as effective as costly. The way I understand these changes is that an invisible (not rendering) Min commando with damage modded swarms can easily destroy an ADS (e.g. a Python in this case) in 3 volleys and if the ADS pilot is not lucky enough to be further away than 90m and/or already moving away from the swarmer, he is toast. If you think that ADSs are OP why do you then contribute to the already rampant alpha damage escalation by buffing swarms instead of tuning down the effectiveness of ADSs first? You did so by increasing the cooldown of ABs, which I support. But why don't we tune down the 10% damage and 50% ROF bonus of ADSs, thus making them less effective, first? As an ADS pilot I always feel sucker-punched everytime I die because in most cases I did not see it coming and this is far from being fun. And on the other side I feel no empathy at all for those idiots who can see and hear an ADS coming from miles away and still decide to move across open ground with no cover and no AV support. Luck or skill. However, you need to read the changes again as you are exaggerating the scenario results. How does this change increase contribute to alpha damage? How does cooldown decrease K/D of an ADS? It reduces the impact of an ADS on a battle by making it retreat more often. ROF bonus is surely something we can reduce, noone has mentioned it since these discussions began 2 weeks ago. Ok, I'm trying to be completely unbiased here... First of all, I don't he is exaggerating at all. ADS does indeed get shot down most of the time by things that do not render, or OHK because of the knockback. I'm all for buffing Swarm speed, I've suggested that months ago already myself. But at the same time rendering should be fixed, no, rendering should have been fixed in Uprising 1.1 already. He didn't really say that it directly contributes to the alpha damage, it's just that they already do enough damage but now the impact comes to you sooner. Which, like I said, I support. And increasing the cooldown will not impact the K/D, but it reduces the effectiveness of an ADS, as it cannot get back to terrorizing ground troops so quickly. There's actually only one way to reduce the K/D if you wanna go by that number, which I don't see why you would, as the K/D is not affected when you lose your ADS, you simply jump out and preserve your K/D, so you need to make it so that you cannot jump out when it's falling if you want to go with the K/D number. I thought you wanted to reduce the effectiveness of an ADS, the K/D means nothing when pilots can just jump out. And if you really want to go by the the K/D number, then start nerfing players, not roles. Because good players can go for high K/D no matter what they are doing if they really want to pad their K/D. So anyone who has high K/D, handicap them. AV itself is already strong enough because they are invisible >50% of the time. If you want to reduce the K/D of pilots, then don't let them hop out when the ADS gets shot down. But if you fix the rendering instead, you could then considerably buff AV, although it still would not impact pilot K/D. Even if every AV weapon was a one shot kill weapon, it would not affect pilot K/D.

a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 48	Posted - 2014.09.16 14:54:00 - [61] - Quote Rattati: I noticed in your first post you said we (pilots) are unlikely to die more, just lose more money. What really worries me is it appears you are trying to balance ads so we lose at least one per match which in itself I have no problem with. However, in order to be fair the price still needs to be cheaper. Average payout is approximately 200k. Therefore an advanced fitted ads should cost at maximum 200k. I understand you have currently said 200k for the hull. I understand it will be a bit difficult to explain to av'ers so can I ask if this cost reduction to 200k hull goes well with no problems, can you reduce the price to 125k ish for echo so pilots can finally actually make some money and are able to stay in the air more than a half of the matches I'm in. Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 41	Posted - 2014.09.16 15:52:00 - [62] - Quote So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it?
Atiim 12190	Posted - 2014.09.16 16:41:00 - [63] - Quote JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it? The results would be no different than those marked on the graph, so it wouldn't matter. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 42	Posted - 2014.09.16 17:06:00 - [64] - Quote Atiim wrote: JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it? The results would be no different than those marked on the graph, so it wouldn't matter. Yes, Brown noser #34. Who's bending you over that you have inside information?
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 42	Posted - 2014.09.16 17:28:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. So just remove vehicles if they're such a pain in the rear. Just get rid of them once and for all. It seems like you want it, probably more of CCP wants it, and this bad community certainly wants it. Then you'll be direct competition for Call of Duty, and maybe then you could start to siphon off some of that money. Oh wait... there's a new one coming out soon. Nevermind
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1062	Posted - 2014.09.16 17:28:00 - [66] - Quote Atiim wrote: JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it? The results would be no different than those marked on the graph, so it wouldn't matter. Yes, because there are no variables to consider, like lag, frame rate, variating reaction times and responses depending on the individual, rendering issues. Yeah, it all happens the way it says so on the paper.
Atiim 12192	Posted - 2014.09.16 18:45:00 - [67] - Quote MarasdF Loron wrote: Atiim wrote: JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it? The results would be no different than those marked on the graph, so it wouldn't matter. Yes, because there are no variables to consider, like lag, frame rate, variating reaction times and responses depending on the individual, rendering issues. Yeah, it all happens the way it says so on the paper. You never balance around lag or frame rate as it's far too inconsistent, the average human's reaction time is 215ms, which is way to fast to make a difference, and balancing around an individual person is also inconsistent. Anything else? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 778	Posted - 2014.09.16 19:57:00 - [68] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: The problem rails has was their damage profile being wonky at 77%/63%. The ROF Nerf is coupled woth the profile being updated, so DPS will remain the same. Direct hit damage is aswell getting nerfed by 30% so your argument is nonesense Indeed. Here is an analysis if you'd like to double check Alena: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174891&find=unread With the initially proposed 10% ROF nerf and 30% damage nerf, small railguns would be essentially useless except as anti-infantry - the entire point of the nerf. Alt of Halla Murr.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1763	Posted - 2014.09.16 20:17:00 - [69] - Quote Didn't he say he would rethink it though? I remember reading that. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 778	Posted - 2014.09.16 21:08:00 - [70] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Didn't he say he would rethink it though? I remember reading that. Yes he said that the numbers I provided were considered. I was simply linking you so you could see that your previous statement of 'damage staying the same' wasn't actually correct. Hopefully, my advice will be heeded. Alt of Halla Murr.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1765	Posted - 2014.09.17 01:07:00 - [71] - Quote Hopefully. IF small rails are supposed to be AV, then they need a buff if anything. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 152	Posted - 2014.09.17 02:45:00 - [72] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This discussion is immediately looking like it is going to get derailed by bickering. Please consider this the final warning to stay on the topic and contribute meaningful opinions to the matter at hand. Rattati, its time to fix the gunner seat for missles, im weary of shooting myself out. Thats why i only gun in incubuses.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1766	Posted - 2014.09.17 02:47:00 - [73] - Quote Atiim wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Atiim wrote: JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it? The results would be no different than those marked on the graph, so it wouldn't matter. Yes, because there are no variables to consider, like lag, frame rate, variating reaction times and responses depending on the individual, rendering issues. Yeah, it all happens the way it says so on the paper. You never balance around lag or frame rate as it's far too inconsistent, the average human's reaction time is 215ms, which is way to fast to make a difference, and balancing around an individual person is also inconsistent. Anything else? I butt heads with Atiim all the time, but he is right. Reaction time differs of course, but the acceleration of the swarms, the speed of the drop ship, all of these can be calculated and predicted. I'm guessing if not exactly like the graph, then close to it. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1768	Posted - 2014.09.17 03:48:00 - [74] - Quote What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Atiim 12217	Posted - 2014.09.17 16:00:00 - [75] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7289	Posted - 2014.09.17 16:11:00 - [76] - Quote Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2631	Posted - 2014.09.17 17:00:00 - [77] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? That is actually an interesting thought. Would a 10% reduction in damage be seen as reasonable? TBH, IMO I think anything over a 15% reduction will kill this SL. The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1775	Posted - 2014.09.17 17:33:00 - [78] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? Suppose we make militia swarms act as a halfway point? For example, let's say normal swarms did current full damage and flew at 50m/s, and assault swarms did 10%less damage but flew at the proposed 60m/s, militia swarms could be halfway, doing 5% less damage and flying at 55m/s. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 745	Posted - 2014.09.17 18:03:00 - [79] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? In order to keep the meaning of the word "Assault" tied to Gallentean combat philosophy (short range, high DPS, large clip), I'd rather suggest making the anti-ADS variant (extra-long range, extra-low DPS) a "Tactical" Swarm Launcher. Basically an extra-Caldari variant for those who think the base one isn't Caldari enough yet. Naming conventions, I know. But those things make the game less confusing - something you ought to keep in mind when introducing variants. Personally I'd prefer for all Swarm Launchers to have one missile speed, for simplicity's sake.
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 79	Posted - 2014.09.17 18:21:00 - [80] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? Now that would give a reason for people to use assault swarms again. This is a very good idea. As for militia swarms, well, they are militia. Faster or not, the damages they inflict make them no threat to ADS, especially to the incubus. If you wan't new players to defend themselves against vehicles, you should rework completely your tutorial. As an exemple, in the create a dropsuit part of the tutorial, you should give them items and indications to create militia forges (or mauler dropsuits). Because whatever you do to the swarm, the forge will stil be the king of the AV weapons. Prima Gallicus diplomat. Contact Hubert De LaBatte or me if you have business to do with us.

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 196	Posted - 2014.09.17 20:23:00 - [81] - Quote I hate repeating myself but, seeing as i don't have an answer yet, again i ask: 1) why is the first chart have the drop ship hovering at 60m and the second one hovering at 80m? Acording to your own data dropship at 60m in hotfix delta at full afterburn needs to tank 3 missiles. 2) Are swarms programed to explode after 9 seconds of travel and 400m is how far the can fly in that period of time? Buffing speed will increase the range of swarms if this is this case. If a swarm missile can travel faster within 9 seconds it will cover more distance before self destucting. 400m/9 seconds = 50mps. Add 10% speed 55mps 9seconds x 55 mps = 440m. Not playing "gotcha" i want to know whether my concerns are unfounded. Swarms are getting buffed no matter what, so i want to see the extent of the buffs and plan my SP investment accordngly. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 125	Posted - 2014.09.17 22:30:00 - [82] - Quote Well actually proposed swarms flying at 60m/s could fly a theoretical maximum of 540 M. However not sure whether this will be the case as acceleration and direction of firing are definite factors. For example: Silly swarm scrub sees ADS, he locks on fires, locks on fires, locks on fires.... 1st impact, ADS afterburner on, 2nd impact, 3rd miss. Smart swarm sees ADS, he locks on, turns around, fires, locks on fires, locks on fires.... 1st and 2nd swarm hit with a very small delay, ADS afterburn on, 3rd hits. See the difference a small but effective manouver can create? However NOOOO swarms must be instalock, insta fire no skill weapons that apparently should be able to solo dropships without thought....... Well if a militia swarm can't solo a madrugar any way in hell, why should it give ADS so much hassle?! I propose a dmg increase towards only tanks if ADS is getting a clear disadvantage from speed nerf, as tanking is more effective, prevalent, less skill intensive and more rewarding for LESS or equal isk investment. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7314	Posted - 2014.09.18 00:22:00 - [83] - Quote My understanding is that there are two settings, and the missile is destroyed whenever it hits the lower threshold. Max range and max air time We will make sure they are the same distance based on the new speed and acceleration "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 147	Posted - 2014.09.18 00:23:00 - [84] - Quote What I find frustrating about this whole dropship/swarm matter is modules, and the skills for dropships need fixing. Everything about dropships is halfway done. Now we are talking about adding more variants to the swarm launcher? Wouldn't it be best to even see first if the changes that are being implemented to swarms and the afterburner even works as intended. Then we can see if the intended changes makes dropships still viable. Thus far only thing I have read is dropships are OP, but I haven't seen anything remotely on the way yet to fixing the serious issues on dropships. Currently Caldari Dropships are so squishy they are fitting Heavy/HAV Shielding on them to withstand what is already in the game. These current fittings for some reason gives the Caldari dropship a moving penalty. Armor, shield optimization skills, PG and CPU consumption need serious attention for dropships. Level 4-5 skills for the fitting optimizations don't seem to change or show an effect on dropship fittings. Gallente dropships with armor plates are destroyed far too fast by swarms. Gallente Dropships have little to no downside when comparing both dropships side by side. These things were suppose to be fixed last year in december but there hasn't been much progress since then. What I like about the dropship community is the good feedback that is given on the forums, and amongst each other. I am waiting to see how well the afterburner and swarm changes will effect piloting dropships. In theory according to CCP this will make it better for swarm launcher users and dropships to interact. If not pilots will voice their concerns, and I think the many forums threads by pilots is shure proof. If the changes are great then as all pilots, we should share our findings on how to keep our dropships up in the air. We have several dropship chat rooms in game and we have good videos done by pilots, and we can make more threads on how to help others. *Always Grey Skies*
TH1EFOFSOuLS Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 7	Posted - 2014.09.18 02:30:00 - [85] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Any chance you're going to look at the Forge Gun? Right now the big issue with FG vs ADS is them easily escaping by flying up to the ceiling and max ranging the FG. Any possible way you could look into increasing the max range of the FG? IMO the damage, charge time, etc are all fine but as soon as the ADS exceeds that max range by flying up for a few seconds it's completely impervious to the FG. I honestly don't think that's unfair, it must have some way of surviving. Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG? It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms. And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like. Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot. Hey guess what an easy fix to your python problems are? specing into a INCbus. " BUT I DONT WANNNAAA I WANAA CAMP ON A TOWER AND SHOOT DOWN ON PEOPLE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" lolz
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 287	Posted - 2014.09.18 02:34:00 - [86] - Quote Why don't you just give me a respec. I'm so sick of these constant nerfs. Here I was thinking CCP is going to buff my python except the gimp the crap out of it to a point where even armor damaging skill-less militia swarms are going to bring me down like a hot knife through butter. I am 100% against this whole thread. I rather pay 500k isk for a DS that is actually a force on the field than 330k isk for a piece of junk. Rattati, I truly and wholeheartedly believe that you have no clue when it comes to swarms vs ADS balance. It takes tremendous skill/isk to fly an ADS, I bet if I gave you a month, you probably would never get more than 25 kills. On the other hand, even an academy player can lock and fire with a swarm launcher that is free. I can't argue anything because you always come up with some bullcrap. Really, "strafing runs?" "Fly By's? the only chance of getting a kill from flying by is like 1/10. I don't see how the turn radius reduction is going to help at all. You can't try to fix something that you haven't tested. ADS pilots are among the most skilled players in the game. They should be rewarded a lot more than those skill-less lock on and shoot cheap sp/ isk wise swarm players. We'll, I've had enough of Dust. I'll fly till end of charlie and probably move on to Destiny. Dust is truly dying. Remove this comment if your feelings are hurt. Who am I to tell the great Rattati how to balance. He uses CHARTS and GRAPHS!! Do you even play bro? Nerfing player skill by nerfing asset. COD is getting to CCPs head. B Double O T Y
TH1EFOFSOuLS Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 7	Posted - 2014.09.18 02:36:00 - [87] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? Hello CCP rattati my name is Panda uzimaki/ shooter somewhere/ caldari smiles/ a bunch of other crap. Ive got more alts then that eve chick, but anyways lets get down to business. I really want you to start thing what you want out of tanks in echo, because.... they suck right now. I mean sure with 25-30 mil SP in them they aren't that bad but not everybody has that much SP laying around huh? Its not that im having problems stomping in this game no If that's what I wanted id go play bf3 or some crap be a chopper whoxre again lol. I like this game for the vehicle combat its not something you just decide to do "or used to be at least" a tank battle meant something. The lack of tank battles through these hot fixes has been depressing. Its just been AV on rooftops and skyscrapers vs my tanks and that's simply not why me and the real vehicle support guys (duna2002 not being among them) play this game.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1780	Posted - 2014.09.18 02:40:00 - [88] - Quote Rattati, any new thoughts on assault swarms being anti-dropship? I think it go es AV an option to kill us without it being a guaranteed win for them while at the same time giving life to the most underused weapon in dust. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4966	Posted - 2014.09.18 03:08:00 - [89] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati, any new thoughts on assault swarms being anti-dropship? (1) I think it go es AV an option to kill us without it being a guaranteed win for them while at the same time (2) giving life to the most underused weapon in dust. 1) Are you implying that the changes as proposed guarantee an AV win? 2) What does Breach Shotgun have to do with this? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Apocalyptic Destroyer KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 130	Posted - 2014.09.18 03:09:00 - [90] - Quote Hmm, seems like you Devs need to play your own game more. Try flying an ADS right now and tell me what you think. Try Pain is weakness leaving the body.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1782	Posted - 2014.09.18 03:15:00 - [91] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati, any new thoughts on assault swarms being anti-dropship? (1) I think it go es AV an option to kill us without it being a guaranteed win for them while at the same time (2) giving life to the most underused weapon in dust. 1) Are you implying that the changes as proposed guarantee an AV win? 2) What does Breach Shotgun have to do with this? 1) I believe it does, especially on the incubus. 2) still think it plays second fiddle to assault swarm launcher. But definitely in need of some attention. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7336	Posted - 2014.09.18 10:48:00 - [92] - Quote Thanks everyone, we will keep monitoring the situation after Delta. We have some ways to remedy any situation, for example, a really simple way is to reduce the distance that swarms can fly to let ADS's escape in case their survivability is seriously affected. Then swarms need to team up to kill vehicles but will be area of denial weapons mostly. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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