DUST Search - Sticky:Swarms versus Dropships

Funkmaster Whale wrote:

Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG?

It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms.

And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like.

Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 775	Posted - 2014.09.15 11:31:00 - [1] - Quote Question about the first chart: why are Swarms 2/3/4 in a vertical line, unlike the second chart? CCP Rattati wrote: You can not hover and engage multiple targets while also being under attack by a swarm launcher but you can move away and then engage in a strafing run. There are no numbers for a strafing run - that is to say, it's not possible to use numbers to determine how a strafing run will play out. There are only numbers for speed and damage: the accuracy and skill of the pilot and the experience and skills of the Swarmer are not constants, but these make up a very large portion of each engagement - does the Swarmer hold their lock-on until the right moment? Does the ADS sit still or do they circle around? What turrets are nearby, can the Swarmer sit near one to get the ADS to aggro it? None of these are absolutes, of course, and none should be the main balancing factor, but they all have a huge impacton each engagement. Might I ask what the intention of no hover/yes strafe is? The ADS is intended to move in under some speed, fire off a few shots before leaving area and returning shortly after: is the intent to curtail the presence of an ADS in a particular area for long periods? I ask sincerely, these are not questions bidding traps, I just want to know your intentions behind the proposed changes. CCP Rattati wrote: It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. Honestly, yes ADSs are a little too effective; ADSs are, conversely, the most expensive piece of equipment. I sincerely hope you are correct that the changes will not be unbalancing, though I am concerned and still feel that the changes are being brought forward one-sidedly. My previous comments about experience piloting may have been over the top, but the reason I ever brought it up was because the game is an entirely different beast when you're piloting: the rendering issues that have plagued us for ages; the collision damage and the fact that we have had inertia for so long, yet tanks can just stop on a dime (I look forward to that change greatly); the difficulty in simply flying and keeping on target - all of those are, quite simply, not balancing points; but they are points which unbalance the situation. Simply learning to fly is tough, and learning to land shots on target while you're under fire is even more difficult and gets only slightly easier when experienced. And in all seriousness rendering is an enormous pain in the behind. I would bet you 10mil ISK that this is the primary reason why ADS pilots are so vocal about these changes: it's difficult shooting at infantry in general, let alone one who is shooting you with a lock-on/tracking weapon, while dancing about yet still invisible 70% of the time. I would happily trade the resilience of my ships if I was able to actually target the enemy as easily as they do me. In short, I hope you're right, but please understand that there is a lot more to the situation than just numbers. Alt of Halla Murr.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 776	Posted - 2014.09.15 13:35:00 - [2] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG? It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms. And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like. Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot. Have you tried to hit a Forge Gunner while they slam you about? An ADS has a hard time against a Forge Gunner, but the balance is actually pretty damn good: you need to land several hits (so do we, because of Sentinel resistance to blast damage); we need to continue moving to throw off your aim which does exactly the same to us; you have the advantage of cover and being much harder to identify (in general: rendering before you're within 100m is hard, and the charge only helps identify your general area) while we have the advantage of when we close to engagement range or retreat (though you still have the option of HAVs and LAVs.) I think ADS/FG balance is pretty spot on. Alt of Halla Murr.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 777	Posted - 2014.09.15 16:23:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Luck or skill. However, you need to read the changes again as you are exaggerating the scenario results. How does this change increase contribute to alpha damage? How does cooldown decrease K/D of an ADS? It reduces the impact of an ADS on a battle by making it retreat more often. ROF bonus is surely something we can reduce, noone has mentioned it since these discussions began 2 weeks ago. For the second chart, it looks like the ADS will be hit with two Swarms the vast majority of the time and the third one is dependant on ADS reaction time and direction of travel: if the ADS at 80m runs directly away from the Swarmer, the third shot misses; if they run at an an acute angle (ie, past the Swarmer) then they will get hit by those numbers. Is that correct? Not asking if that is good/bad, just making sure I understand the chart. ROF bonus changes could be interesting, though I think they would impact the Incubus far more heavily, especially with upcoming small Railgun changes. @Funkmaster: at ranges over 100m it is extremely difficult for a dropship to land hits on any infantry, and Sentinels are substantially tougher than most due to the 25% (at L5) resistance to blast damage. When the dropship is within 100m, you are still small, but we are much larger. My alt is a dedicated heavy: I use FGs a lot and I can hit targets within 100m pretty easily - outside of that it is difficult, but then, you shouldn't be able to snipe all vehicles within 400m perfectly otherwise there is no point to vehicles. Anyway, this is about Swarms. CCP Rattati wrote: maybe you shouldn't hover in front of the weapon designated to kill you, maybe team work? Define hover. Because you can circle around a Swarmer, bob and weave and they will always lock you, but your aim is thrown off by those motions and for naught. Rarely do I ever hover, and rarely do I ever outrun the second volley. Alt of Halla Murr.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 778	Posted - 2014.09.16 19:57:00 - [4] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: The problem rails has was their damage profile being wonky at 77%/63%. The ROF Nerf is coupled woth the profile being updated, so DPS will remain the same. Direct hit damage is aswell getting nerfed by 30% so your argument is nonesense Indeed. Here is an analysis if you'd like to double check Alena: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174891&find=unread With the initially proposed 10% ROF nerf and 30% damage nerf, small railguns would be essentially useless except as anti-infantry - the entire point of the nerf. Alt of Halla Murr.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 778	Posted - 2014.09.16 21:08:00 - [5] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Didn't he say he would rethink it though? I remember reading that. Yes he said that the numbers I provided were considered. I was simply linking you so you could see that your previous statement of 'damage staying the same' wasn't actually correct. Hopefully, my advice will be heeded. Alt of Halla Murr.