DUST Search - Sticky:Swarms versus Dropships

Kallas Hallytyr wrote:

Funkmaster Whale wrote:

Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG?

It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms.

And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like.

Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot.

Have you tried to hit a Forge Gunner while they slam you about? An ADS has a hard time against a Forge Gunner, but the balance is actually pretty damn good: you need to land several hits (so do we, because of Sentinel resistance to blast damage); we need to continue moving to throw off your aim which does exactly the same to us; you have the advantage of cover and being much harder to identify (in general: rendering before you're within 100m is hard, and the charge only helps identify your general area) while we have the advantage of when we close to engagement range or retreat (though you still have the option of HAVs and LAVs.)

I think ADS/FG balance is pretty spot on.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2465	Posted - 2014.09.15 12:44:00 - [1] - Quote Any chance you're going to look at the Forge Gun? Right now the big issue with FG vs ADS is them easily escaping by flying up to the ceiling and max ranging the FG. Any possible way you could look into increasing the max range of the FG? IMO the damage, charge time, etc are all fine but as soon as the ADS exceeds that max range by flying up for a few seconds it's completely impervious to the FG. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2465	Posted - 2014.09.15 12:49:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Any chance you're going to look at the Forge Gun? Right now the big issue with FG vs ADS is them easily escaping by flying up to the ceiling and max ranging the FG. Any possible way you could look into increasing the max range of the FG? IMO the damage, charge time, etc are all fine but as soon as the ADS exceeds that max range by flying up for a few seconds it's completely impervious to the FG. I honestly don't think that's unfair, it must have some way of surviving. Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG? It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms. And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like. Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2466	Posted - 2014.09.15 13:45:00 - [3] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG? It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms. And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like. Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot. Have you tried to hit a Forge Gunner while they slam you about? An ADS has a hard time against a Forge Gunner, but the balance is actually pretty damn good: you need to land several hits (so do we, because of Sentinel resistance to blast damage); we need to continue moving to throw off your aim which does exactly the same to us; you have the advantage of cover and being much harder to identify (in general: rendering before you're within 100m is hard, and the charge only helps identify your general area) while we have the advantage of when we close to engagement range or retreat (though you still have the option of HAVs and LAVs.) I think ADS/FG balance is pretty spot on. You're not supposed to directly engage a Forge Gunner with your ADS you silly. Do you think the ADS is supposed to be the be-all-end-all against every infantry type? Any competent scout or assault suit or even HMG heavy can easily take out a Forge Gunner, even one camped on a roof, as long as he plays it smart and gets the jump on him. Increasing the max range of the FG wouldn't break the balance in any extreme way like reducing charge time or increasing damage. A lot of FG users I see are missing shots against an ADS at 50-100m anyway. Give the experienced Forgers an actual feasible way to land the killshot. It's so incredibly frustrating to be outplayed by an ADS because he can just activate his AB and go "Haha your shots are no use at this altitude!". It's really stupid that I can clearly identify an ADS that looks like he is in shooting range only for my reticule to stay white and no targeting information to appear because they're too far away. 300 or 400m or whatever it is is so laughably low when you're considering ground-to-air engagements. The Swarms are a lock-on shoot-and-forget weapon that can be fit on any suit. The FG actually requires you to stand still and charge all while timing and instinctively calculating projectile travel time combined with an ADSs flight path to even have a chance at landing a shot. I land maybe about 5-10% of my shots at 200+ meters when an ADS is actively evading, if that. Make that 5-10% chance actually count instead of having the projectile simply disappear in mid-air. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Funkmaster Whale Fatal Absolution 2466	Posted - 2014.09.15 14:18:00 - [4] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Increasing the max range of the FG wouldn't break the balance in any extreme way ... Questions: 1) There was a time when a rooftop swarmer could deny access to any vehicle over massive sections of battlefield. This capability was deemed unfair, and swarm range was drastically reduced. How might we relate this scenario to an increase in Forge Gun range? 2) Snipers have expressed serious concerns about the Sniper Rifle's upcoming range reduction. Might an increase in Forge Gun range upset balance between Sniper and Forge Sniper? 1) Again, the Swarm is a lock-on fire n forget weapon that requires absolutely no actual skill to use because it's literally just "look at target, lock on, fire". The FG requires manual aiming as well as having a straight-shooting projectile with a travel time that is easily avoided by most pilots at ranges exceeding 200-300m.. I must stress the point of how difficult it is to actually land a shot on something like an ADS at this range. It's hard, but definitely possible, and it should be possible but currently is not because most projectiles will disappear before reaching the target. 2) Forge guns have no zoom. Yes Forge sniping works well in a city with visible targets. The days of OP rooftop forge camping are over not because the Forge was slightly nerfed but because the Active Scanner was severely nerfed. The previously OP scanner was what gave a constant feed of salient red dots to fire at for a Forge Gunner. Back when I was forging in PCs covering city points, there wouldn't be a moment in the game where I wasn't yelling at my Logis, "I need scans! Where are my scans!?" The increased range wouldn't affect FG vs infantry much as I rarely have a case where infantry is out of range. Even if they are closing the gap is much much easier compared to an ADS that can dip out in a matter of seconds. Follow me on Twitch.tv!