DUST Search - Sticky:Swarms versus Dropships

Funkmaster Whale wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Funkmaster Whale wrote:

Any chance you're going to look at the Forge Gun?

Right now the big issue with FG vs ADS is them easily escaping by flying up to the ceiling and max ranging the FG. Any possible way you could look into increasing the max range of the FG?

IMO the damage, charge time, etc are all fine but as soon as the ADS exceeds that max range by flying up for a few seconds it's completely impervious to the FG.

I honestly don't think that's unfair, it must have some way of surviving.

Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG?

It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms.

And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like.

Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 48	Posted - 2014.09.16 14:54:00 - [61] - Quote Rattati: I noticed in your first post you said we (pilots) are unlikely to die more, just lose more money. What really worries me is it appears you are trying to balance ads so we lose at least one per match which in itself I have no problem with. However, in order to be fair the price still needs to be cheaper. Average payout is approximately 200k. Therefore an advanced fitted ads should cost at maximum 200k. I understand you have currently said 200k for the hull. I understand it will be a bit difficult to explain to av'ers so can I ask if this cost reduction to 200k hull goes well with no problems, can you reduce the price to 125k ish for echo so pilots can finally actually make some money and are able to stay in the air more than a half of the matches I'm in. Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 41	Posted - 2014.09.16 15:52:00 - [62] - Quote So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it?
Atiim 12190	Posted - 2014.09.16 16:41:00 - [63] - Quote JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it? The results would be no different than those marked on the graph, so it wouldn't matter. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 42	Posted - 2014.09.16 17:06:00 - [64] - Quote Atiim wrote: JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it? The results would be no different than those marked on the graph, so it wouldn't matter. Yes, Brown noser #34. Who's bending you over that you have inside information?
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 42	Posted - 2014.09.16 17:28:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It just seems to me that some of you want to keep the status quo and refuse to listen to anything else when we all know, and most pilots admit as much privately, that the ADS is completely overpowered. So just remove vehicles if they're such a pain in the rear. Just get rid of them once and for all. It seems like you want it, probably more of CCP wants it, and this bad community certainly wants it. Then you'll be direct competition for Call of Duty, and maybe then you could start to siphon off some of that money. Oh wait... there's a new one coming out soon. Nevermind
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1062	Posted - 2014.09.16 17:28:00 - [66] - Quote Atiim wrote: JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it? The results would be no different than those marked on the graph, so it wouldn't matter. Yes, because there are no variables to consider, like lag, frame rate, variating reaction times and responses depending on the individual, rendering issues. Yeah, it all happens the way it says so on the paper.
Atiim 12192	Posted - 2014.09.16 18:45:00 - [67] - Quote MarasdF Loron wrote: Atiim wrote: JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it? The results would be no different than those marked on the graph, so it wouldn't matter. Yes, because there are no variables to consider, like lag, frame rate, variating reaction times and responses depending on the individual, rendering issues. Yeah, it all happens the way it says so on the paper. You never balance around lag or frame rate as it's far too inconsistent, the average human's reaction time is 215ms, which is way to fast to make a difference, and balancing around an individual person is also inconsistent. Anything else? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 778	Posted - 2014.09.16 19:57:00 - [68] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: The problem rails has was their damage profile being wonky at 77%/63%. The ROF Nerf is coupled woth the profile being updated, so DPS will remain the same. Direct hit damage is aswell getting nerfed by 30% so your argument is nonesense Indeed. Here is an analysis if you'd like to double check Alena: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174891&find=unread With the initially proposed 10% ROF nerf and 30% damage nerf, small railguns would be essentially useless except as anti-infantry - the entire point of the nerf. Alt of Halla Murr.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1763	Posted - 2014.09.16 20:17:00 - [69] - Quote Didn't he say he would rethink it though? I remember reading that. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 778	Posted - 2014.09.16 21:08:00 - [70] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Didn't he say he would rethink it though? I remember reading that. Yes he said that the numbers I provided were considered. I was simply linking you so you could see that your previous statement of 'damage staying the same' wasn't actually correct. Hopefully, my advice will be heeded. Alt of Halla Murr.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1765	Posted - 2014.09.17 01:07:00 - [71] - Quote Hopefully. IF small rails are supposed to be AV, then they need a buff if anything. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 152	Posted - 2014.09.17 02:45:00 - [72] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This discussion is immediately looking like it is going to get derailed by bickering. Please consider this the final warning to stay on the topic and contribute meaningful opinions to the matter at hand. Rattati, its time to fix the gunner seat for missles, im weary of shooting myself out. Thats why i only gun in incubuses.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1766	Posted - 2014.09.17 02:47:00 - [73] - Quote Atiim wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Atiim wrote: JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: So, have you actually tried any of this on the test server, or are you going to wing it? The results would be no different than those marked on the graph, so it wouldn't matter. Yes, because there are no variables to consider, like lag, frame rate, variating reaction times and responses depending on the individual, rendering issues. Yeah, it all happens the way it says so on the paper. You never balance around lag or frame rate as it's far too inconsistent, the average human's reaction time is 215ms, which is way to fast to make a difference, and balancing around an individual person is also inconsistent. Anything else? I butt heads with Atiim all the time, but he is right. Reaction time differs of course, but the acceleration of the swarms, the speed of the drop ship, all of these can be calculated and predicted. I'm guessing if not exactly like the graph, then close to it. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1768	Posted - 2014.09.17 03:48:00 - [74] - Quote What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Atiim 12217	Posted - 2014.09.17 16:00:00 - [75] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7289	Posted - 2014.09.17 16:11:00 - [76] - Quote Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2631	Posted - 2014.09.17 17:00:00 - [77] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? That is actually an interesting thought. Would a 10% reduction in damage be seen as reasonable? TBH, IMO I think anything over a 15% reduction will kill this SL. The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1775	Posted - 2014.09.17 17:33:00 - [78] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? Suppose we make militia swarms act as a halfway point? For example, let's say normal swarms did current full damage and flew at 50m/s, and assault swarms did 10%less damage but flew at the proposed 60m/s, militia swarms could be halfway, doing 5% less damage and flying at 55m/s. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 745	Posted - 2014.09.17 18:03:00 - [79] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? In order to keep the meaning of the word "Assault" tied to Gallentean combat philosophy (short range, high DPS, large clip), I'd rather suggest making the anti-ADS variant (extra-long range, extra-low DPS) a "Tactical" Swarm Launcher. Basically an extra-Caldari variant for those who think the base one isn't Caldari enough yet. Naming conventions, I know. But those things make the game less confusing - something you ought to keep in mind when introducing variants. Personally I'd prefer for all Swarm Launchers to have one missile speed, for simplicity's sake.
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 79	Posted - 2014.09.17 18:21:00 - [80] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? Now that would give a reason for people to use assault swarms again. This is a very good idea. As for militia swarms, well, they are militia. Faster or not, the damages they inflict make them no threat to ADS, especially to the incubus. If you wan't new players to defend themselves against vehicles, you should rework completely your tutorial. As an exemple, in the create a dropsuit part of the tutorial, you should give them items and indications to create militia forges (or mauler dropsuits). Because whatever you do to the swarm, the forge will stil be the king of the AV weapons. Prima Gallicus diplomat. Contact Hubert De LaBatte or me if you have business to do with us.

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 196	Posted - 2014.09.17 20:23:00 - [81] - Quote I hate repeating myself but, seeing as i don't have an answer yet, again i ask: 1) why is the first chart have the drop ship hovering at 60m and the second one hovering at 80m? Acording to your own data dropship at 60m in hotfix delta at full afterburn needs to tank 3 missiles. 2) Are swarms programed to explode after 9 seconds of travel and 400m is how far the can fly in that period of time? Buffing speed will increase the range of swarms if this is this case. If a swarm missile can travel faster within 9 seconds it will cover more distance before self destucting. 400m/9 seconds = 50mps. Add 10% speed 55mps 9seconds x 55 mps = 440m. Not playing "gotcha" i want to know whether my concerns are unfounded. Swarms are getting buffed no matter what, so i want to see the extent of the buffs and plan my SP investment accordngly. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 125	Posted - 2014.09.17 22:30:00 - [82] - Quote Well actually proposed swarms flying at 60m/s could fly a theoretical maximum of 540 M. However not sure whether this will be the case as acceleration and direction of firing are definite factors. For example: Silly swarm scrub sees ADS, he locks on fires, locks on fires, locks on fires.... 1st impact, ADS afterburner on, 2nd impact, 3rd miss. Smart swarm sees ADS, he locks on, turns around, fires, locks on fires, locks on fires.... 1st and 2nd swarm hit with a very small delay, ADS afterburn on, 3rd hits. See the difference a small but effective manouver can create? However NOOOO swarms must be instalock, insta fire no skill weapons that apparently should be able to solo dropships without thought....... Well if a militia swarm can't solo a madrugar any way in hell, why should it give ADS so much hassle?! I propose a dmg increase towards only tanks if ADS is getting a clear disadvantage from speed nerf, as tanking is more effective, prevalent, less skill intensive and more rewarding for LESS or equal isk investment. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7314	Posted - 2014.09.18 00:22:00 - [83] - Quote My understanding is that there are two settings, and the missile is destroyed whenever it hits the lower threshold. Max range and max air time We will make sure they are the same distance based on the new speed and acceleration "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH 147	Posted - 2014.09.18 00:23:00 - [84] - Quote What I find frustrating about this whole dropship/swarm matter is modules, and the skills for dropships need fixing. Everything about dropships is halfway done. Now we are talking about adding more variants to the swarm launcher? Wouldn't it be best to even see first if the changes that are being implemented to swarms and the afterburner even works as intended. Then we can see if the intended changes makes dropships still viable. Thus far only thing I have read is dropships are OP, but I haven't seen anything remotely on the way yet to fixing the serious issues on dropships. Currently Caldari Dropships are so squishy they are fitting Heavy/HAV Shielding on them to withstand what is already in the game. These current fittings for some reason gives the Caldari dropship a moving penalty. Armor, shield optimization skills, PG and CPU consumption need serious attention for dropships. Level 4-5 skills for the fitting optimizations don't seem to change or show an effect on dropship fittings. Gallente dropships with armor plates are destroyed far too fast by swarms. Gallente Dropships have little to no downside when comparing both dropships side by side. These things were suppose to be fixed last year in december but there hasn't been much progress since then. What I like about the dropship community is the good feedback that is given on the forums, and amongst each other. I am waiting to see how well the afterburner and swarm changes will effect piloting dropships. In theory according to CCP this will make it better for swarm launcher users and dropships to interact. If not pilots will voice their concerns, and I think the many forums threads by pilots is shure proof. If the changes are great then as all pilots, we should share our findings on how to keep our dropships up in the air. We have several dropship chat rooms in game and we have good videos done by pilots, and we can make more threads on how to help others. *Always Grey Skies*
TH1EFOFSOuLS Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 7	Posted - 2014.09.18 02:30:00 - [85] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Any chance you're going to look at the Forge Gun? Right now the big issue with FG vs ADS is them easily escaping by flying up to the ceiling and max ranging the FG. Any possible way you could look into increasing the max range of the FG? IMO the damage, charge time, etc are all fine but as soon as the ADS exceeds that max range by flying up for a few seconds it's completely impervious to the FG. I honestly don't think that's unfair, it must have some way of surviving. Have you tried hitting a Python when it's going Mach 4 at 200+ meters with the FG? It's no easy feat. Also considering the fact you usually have to land anywhere between 3-5 consecutive shots on a Python while considering charge time, the ADS's flight path, and your projectile's flight time. Not as easy as Shoot and Forget like the Swarms. And this is me using an Ishukone Assault FG with 3x Complex Mods and maxed proficiency. I can't even imagine what the blueberries using STD and ADV gear feel like. Maneuverability and dodging shots and hiding away from line of sight is how it should survive. The FG has to be used on a heavy suit that is all but immobile. A good pilot like Derrith or Sir Snugglez could keep me busy with their 1 ADS for an entire game, and this is when I'm landing almost all my shots on them. The last shot is always what never lands because they can stay just long enough to kill some infantry and then max range me in less time than it takes me to charge a shot. Hey guess what an easy fix to your python problems are? specing into a INCbus. " BUT I DONT WANNNAAA I WANAA CAMP ON A TOWER AND SHOOT DOWN ON PEOPLE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" lolz
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 287	Posted - 2014.09.18 02:34:00 - [86] - Quote Why don't you just give me a respec. I'm so sick of these constant nerfs. Here I was thinking CCP is going to buff my python except the gimp the crap out of it to a point where even armor damaging skill-less militia swarms are going to bring me down like a hot knife through butter. I am 100% against this whole thread. I rather pay 500k isk for a DS that is actually a force on the field than 330k isk for a piece of junk. Rattati, I truly and wholeheartedly believe that you have no clue when it comes to swarms vs ADS balance. It takes tremendous skill/isk to fly an ADS, I bet if I gave you a month, you probably would never get more than 25 kills. On the other hand, even an academy player can lock and fire with a swarm launcher that is free. I can't argue anything because you always come up with some bullcrap. Really, "strafing runs?" "Fly By's? the only chance of getting a kill from flying by is like 1/10. I don't see how the turn radius reduction is going to help at all. You can't try to fix something that you haven't tested. ADS pilots are among the most skilled players in the game. They should be rewarded a lot more than those skill-less lock on and shoot cheap sp/ isk wise swarm players. We'll, I've had enough of Dust. I'll fly till end of charlie and probably move on to Destiny. Dust is truly dying. Remove this comment if your feelings are hurt. Who am I to tell the great Rattati how to balance. He uses CHARTS and GRAPHS!! Do you even play bro? Nerfing player skill by nerfing asset. COD is getting to CCPs head. B Double O T Y
TH1EFOFSOuLS Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 7	Posted - 2014.09.18 02:36:00 - [87] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: What if we made the assault swarm launcher an anti-dropship launcher? weaker missiles, but longer lock range and faster missiles. I'd like to see the proposed changes for HF Delta applied to the Assault Swarm Launcher as opposed to all of the Swarms. That way, the ASL would have a purpose that make sense within the context of an Assault variant. not a bad idea at all, but it renders all militia swarms as useless as before. what if we buff all a little, but assault swarms so they do less damage and fly faster? Hello CCP rattati my name is Panda uzimaki/ shooter somewhere/ caldari smiles/ a bunch of other crap. Ive got more alts then that eve chick, but anyways lets get down to business. I really want you to start thing what you want out of tanks in echo, because.... they suck right now. I mean sure with 25-30 mil SP in them they aren't that bad but not everybody has that much SP laying around huh? Its not that im having problems stomping in this game no If that's what I wanted id go play bf3 or some crap be a chopper whoxre again lol. I like this game for the vehicle combat its not something you just decide to do "or used to be at least" a tank battle meant something. The lack of tank battles through these hot fixes has been depressing. Its just been AV on rooftops and skyscrapers vs my tanks and that's simply not why me and the real vehicle support guys (duna2002 not being among them) play this game.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1780	Posted - 2014.09.18 02:40:00 - [88] - Quote Rattati, any new thoughts on assault swarms being anti-dropship? I think it go es AV an option to kill us without it being a guaranteed win for them while at the same time giving life to the most underused weapon in dust. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4966	Posted - 2014.09.18 03:08:00 - [89] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rattati, any new thoughts on assault swarms being anti-dropship? (1) I think it go es AV an option to kill us without it being a guaranteed win for them while at the same time (2) giving life to the most underused weapon in dust. 1) Are you implying that the changes as proposed guarantee an AV win? 2) What does Breach Shotgun have to do with this? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Apocalyptic Destroyer KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 130	Posted - 2014.09.18 03:09:00 - [90] - Quote Hmm, seems like you Devs need to play your own game more. Try flying an ADS right now and tell me what you think. Try Pain is weakness leaving the body.



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